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Ukraine Crisis - Page 561
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Mc
332 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
nunez
Norway4003 Posts
both the english rt and the english itar-tass piece specifies that the first shot was fired at the police, so maybe something is being lost in translation? a bit confusing. i appreciate the heads-up. Moskal added that the first shot was fired at police, not the protesters. He alleged that the shooters were agents of the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) acting from the ranks of the protesters, but admitted that genuine protesters could have been the culprits. Without elaborating, which organizations were meant, Moskal noted that then “the first shot was made at policemen.” | ||
Greem
730 Posts
On May 24 2014 03:45 Roman666 wrote: It has been translated incorrectly, original sentence in Russian says that "first shot was fired by the police". Otherwise translation is fine. Nunez is correct , original "Перший постріл був зроблений по міліції", - сказав він" . Which translates as First shot was fired at the police. | ||
Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On May 24 2014 04:09 nunez wrote: @roman both the english rt and the english itar-tass piece specifies that the first shot was fired at the police, so maybe something is being lost in translation? a bit confusing. i appreciate the heads-up. You know, I translated it by myself, as I know a bit Russian, but hell, I can be wrong, I haven't used the language for some time. | ||
Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On May 24 2014 04:19 Greem wrote: Nunez is correct , original "Перший постріл був зроблений по міліції", - сказав він" . Which translates as First shot was fired at the police. Native speaker speaks so. I stand corrected. Sorry for the confusion. | ||
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 24 2014 03:46 Mc wrote: Even worse than the previous incidents. Russian men harass middle aged woman for wearing a Ukrainian ribbon. Police then proceed to detain her. Just another demonstration of the effects of Russia's fascist policies on the Russian people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TAdT2e0fE&feature=youtu.be User was warned for this post What's wrong with you? He is posting news about a case of harrassment while the video serves as a source, which any native speaker can watch and confirm the news or reject it. (I watched the video and confirm the news are valid) Basically you are banning all news that are based not on English sources. Seriously what the hell are you doing? User was warned for this post | ||
Greem
730 Posts
On May 24 2014 05:54 Cheerio wrote: What's wrong with you? He is posting news about a case of harrassment while the video serves as a source, which any native speaker can watch and confirm the news or reject it. (I watched the video and confirm the news are valid) Basically you are banning all news that are based not on English sources. Seriously what the hell are you doing? Ad hominem attacks Whether attacks are directed at posters in this thread, or are generalized against a country or society, they will not be tolerated anymore. Any blanket attacks, be it on Ukraine, Russia, or any of the Western countries, or singular posters from these countries will be moderated. I clearly see ad hominem attack here , are you so blind with your hate ?, its contributes nothing to the political discussion , the conversation its not translated, as this woman clearly got rusophopic ideas and far right maidan ideology. As for those interested , a guy starts asking woman "Did your granpas went to war, why do you call the St.George Ribbon the Colorad Ribbon" ( Its named like this in rusophobic manner by the far right maidan members and all those blaming russians in the problems of ukraine). She answers "Because this ribbon got screwed by Colorads and Putinist" ( I only assume she refers to russians ) . Well this is clearly brakes all the rules, you Mr.Cheerio were used to before. | ||
zatic
Zurich15300 Posts
Take discussion of moderation to Website Feedback where it belongs. This thread is about the Ukraine Crisis. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
A dawn attack on a checkpoint in eastern Ukraine has left at least 14 soldiers dead, in the worst loss of life for government forces to date. Heavily armed militants attacked the checkpoint in the Volnovakha area, in one of four attacks reported overnight in eastern Ukraine. It is unclear who attacked the checkpoint, with one Ukrainian officer telling the BBC it was not separatists. The attacks come just three days before Ukraine's presidential election. Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27515514 Personally I don't see any reason to believe that it's a separatist attack. There is no reason for them to attack soldiers hesitant to go to war in a location with minimal strategic value during a time when their popular support is quite uncertain. Later in the article: Rebel claim Speaking on condition of anonymity, an army major who spoke to the survivors of the attack told our correspondent he was sure that the attackers were not Donetsk separatists but "mercenaries". Donetsk rebel leader Pavel Gubarev went on Facebook to deny that separatist forces had attacked the soldiers. However, a self-styled rebel commander in a nearby town, Horlivka, told AP that his forces had carried out the assault and had seized weapons. "We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land of the Donetsk Republic,'' said the commander, who wore a balaclava and identified himself by his nom de guerre, Bess ("demon" in Russian). (same source) | ||
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13378 Posts
On May 24 2014 06:34 Cheerio wrote: At least 5 volunteers of Donbass division (pro-Ukrainian) were killed near Karlivka after they got encircled by separatists forces. 5th Channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7LCbOsfT8c#t=22 Can you give some more details? You are linking a non english video that is 2 mins long with a single sentence. I am wondering what else the video covers, maybe a short paragraph letting me know? | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22201 Posts
On May 24 2014 11:42 ZeromuS wrote: Can you give some more details? You are linking a non english video that is 2 mins long with a single sentence. I am wondering what else the video covers, maybe a short paragraph letting me know? I could imagine how some untranslated mislabled/poorly described videos from the US could easily paint a much different picture than what is actually being shown, so I find it pretty important to be reasonably confident what someone tells me I am seeing is in fact what I am seeing. I think a copy and paste google translation of the you tube description at least helps get us closer to something like that (at least when it isn't filled with ad hominem's or other thread no-no's)? I figure it can at least help provide some things to Google to find more related news stories to whatever the video allegedly shows? I have had a similar issue trying to follow along with this thread so I have done that myself a few times. Here's the one for the video a couple posts up Google translated YouTube description for this Video At least n (5)* "yatero volunteer battalion" Donbass "died in the village Karlivka - according to the Ministry of Health. Press Service Battalion says - Battalion betrayed (mutiny)*. And that's why he was ambushed. Exactly what happened in Karlovka - not known. Eyewitnesses and Participants events do not give a complete picture ... *() indicates something I pieced in based off of other information. Not to be interpreted as 'more correct' I'm not familiar enough to offer much of my own but this situation does have me interested so I don't mind trying to help where I can. I don't think something like this is complete but I thought it might help | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
With less than 48 hours to go until polling stations are due to open for Ukraine’s presidential election, the country’s restive Donbas region is edging the country ever closer to civil war. Today, at least a dozen people were reportedly killed across the region as fighting flared between pro-Russia rebels, far-right paramilitary groups, and soldiers. The violence underscores the impossibility of holding an election in large pockets of Donbas, where a campaign of violence and intimidation is undermining the prospect of a fair and free election. Gunfire in Karlovka village, just 15 miles south of Donetsk — the oblast’s administrative center — began at around 5AM this morning and lasted several hours, locals told VICE News. Grenade explosions were also heard. Two shadowy groups have claimed responsibility for the attack on the rebel checkpoint at a bridge on the edge of the village. One, Donbas Battalion — a conglomeration of so-called “patriotic volunteers” — is rumored to be financed by the Kiev-appointed banking oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky. The other, Right Sector, is a nationalist group that rose to prominence during the Euromaidan protests, and has strong ties to neo-Nazi ideology. Kolomoisky bank rolls another paramilitary group, Dnieper-1, which is licensed under Ukrainian law. Violence has simmered across eastern Ukraine for more than a month since pro-Russia rebels began seizing buildings on April 6, but this is the first time nationalist paramilitary groups have openly admitted to launching assaults in the areas. According to locals, the attacked checkpoint in Karlovka is normally only guarded by between 15 and 40 rebels. But the paramilitary groups’ offensive appears to have gone awry after the pro-Russia militia received a tip and called ahead for extra support. One local told VICE News that he believed Chechen fighters, who are rumored to have been camped out in the area, were involved in the fight. “We saw them moving through the woods two days ago when we were out on bicycles," 42-year-old Andrey tells us. "One lad approached them and they said they were Chechens here to help. I don’t know whose side they were on.” Keep reading on Vice news. | ||
marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 22 2014 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: No one in Europe, not even Ukraine, has a worse economy than India's if you take population into account. "Indian rate of growth" is the result of India being nearly at rock-bottom and having infinite investment. Despite that, India is actually doing pretty shitty even with the infinite investment thanks to all the corruption and waste and inefficiency. Despite this, India is still far behind anywhere in Europe. Even Albania is an infinitely better place than India. The Indian rate of growth is much greater than the United States'. High rate of growth is a common trend in extremely depressed countries. You see why that's not a logical thing to go off of? India's "tech base" is almost entirely the result of foreign (American) investment/outsourcing, mostly for the reason that you can pay people in peanuts in India. American multinational corporations practically built the tech industry in India. Even with this said, India is eons behind the US. It's an awkward gem in a country that is otherwise terribly underdeveloped. China was built by foreign nations in this regard too. It pays hugely on investments when you can invest in a huge labor source (like extremely overpopulated China and India) and pay slave wages on top of that. This is why China and India have been the prime targets. "Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist." And I hate to admit it, but even despite that, Russia is Disneyland compared to those two places. Also, you forgot that unlike the other two, Russia had a decade-long depression thanks to political schemes that were screwing the post-collapse Russian economy left and right. Had it not happened, Russia's economy would probably be at least double in size. Replacing a decade of decline with a decade of growth is a hugely different scenario. The same goes for places like Ukraine (90s situation similar to Russia's) and Iraq (90s trade embargo), etc. Also, Russia was under communism for quite a while longer, if we're going to bring that up. That but also (don't forget) the decade-long depression are the primary causes of the foundation of modern Russia. A lot of the corruption, oligarchs, and stupidity in modern Russia (and Ukraine and other countries) developed in the chaos and disorder of that decade. Russia's "shoddy economy" is in better shape than either China or India. What they're lacking is 8 times of their current population, and it isn't based upon what is almost slave labor either. What Russia and many other countries also lack is infinite investment (mostly for the reasons of the demographic/wage situation in China/India that doesn't exist in Russia and other places). In an alternate world where Russia was the world's 1st or 2nd most populated country, and where people get paid nothing, it would be Russia in that situation. However, even despite that, to say that India of all places is anywhere on par with Russia or other countries in Europe is silly. Most European countries are so far more developed it's absurd to make any sort of comparison. I think you may be severely overestimating the situation in India. Singapore is the Asian equivalent of old Venice, a mercantile city that was built by having the good fortune as being chosen as being a trade hub. It's by no means a point of comparison to large-scale nations that operate in an infinitely more complex manner than a single city-state that rich powers decided to establish as a trade center and that was extremely built up by the British. The British made Singapore practically the best place in the Far East even before it was independent only 50 years ago, and this paved the way for investment and growth even after independence. Thank merchants and the British for why Singapore is where it is today. It would probably be an extremely poor hovel or Malaysian territory otherwise. Also, China is infinitely worse off than Singapore, so putting the two together is not at all a logical comparison, not to mention that they're entirely different structurings. Let's not forget that the Chinese economy is often critiqued as a bubble that's going to burst sooner or later, which have huge ramifications obviously. I don't see this being said about various European countries which are mostly already better off than China anyhow. Wrong. Of the electronic devices and other goods sitting in front of you, how many of them come from Russia? How many were made in China, Japan, Korea, or Singapore? The point is that Asian manufactured goods can compete in the global market. Russian goods cannot. The Russian economy is in the crapper. The only thing that sustains it is oil and the sale of natural resources. Look at the stuff in your home, and the car you're driving, and the electronic devices you're using and it's obvious there's something wrong with the Russian mindset when it comes to managing economies. How many of the goods in your house are Russian? Also, I'd like to point out that China didn't join the world economy until the 1980s and for a long period before that a crazy dictator called Mao Ze Dong ran China's (already poor) economy into a famine. There's really no excuse for Russia's under-performing economy. The Russians have always been bad at developing a manufacturing or tech base. The Russians had 10 years of trouble? Pffft. QQ. China had a century of war and famine. Japan was devastated after WWII. Look at them now, and compare their economies to Russia's. Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law. The evidence is in front of you. If not for the Ukrainians already living there, I'd say give the Donbass area to the Russians. After the Russians turn it into an even bigger economic sinkhole, it'll serve as a warning sign for anyone who is interested in joining the Russian sphere of influence. One of the greatest benefits of the Cold War is that it taught all of the Eastern European countries that joining the West's sphere of influence is better than joining Russia's. We could use another example today. Maybe if the Russians get beat by the economic stick enough times, they'll learn. Also, the point about "foreign money" is silly. Due to globalization, autarky = economic death. The success of a country's economy is dependent on its ability to attract foreign investors, which is something the Russians have always been bad at. The reason companies pour money into China and India is because they see a future in those countries. The only companies who put money into Russia are mining and gas companies looking to exploit their resources. No one in their right minds would build a factory in Russia. The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Indians know how to attract foreign investors. The Russians don't. Businessmen around the world see an economic future in China and India. They see nothing in Russia. | ||
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 24 2014 11:42 ZeromuS wrote: Can you give some more details? You are linking a non english video that is 2 mins long with a single sentence. I am wondering what else the video covers, maybe a short paragraph letting me know? I am making a point that forcing contributors to contribute even more is not a good policy. Most importantly it leaves an uneasy feeling that one is doing it not to be helpful, but because he would be banned otherwise. And since now positive feedback is basically forbidden (low content), there is less motivation to contribute than ever. On the other side, maybe someone will start to prove me wrong. I think you should treat foreign sources as pointers to important information, which might not be yet covered in western press, but probably are up and coming. Usually translating those is a waste of time, because if the event is legit and important, an English cover up would be available in a few hours (but usually it is already with more on the way). So when someone is short on time and is giving you important pointers, that should be welcomed, not banned. | ||
Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On May 24 2014 17:18 marigoldran wrote: Wrong. Of the electronic devices and other goods sitting in front of you, how many of them come from Russia? How many were made in China, Japan, Korea, or Singapore? The point is that Asian manufactured goods can compete in the global market. Russian goods cannot. The Russian economy is in the crapper. The only thing that sustains it is oil and the sale of natural resources. Look at the stuff in your home, and the car you're driving, and the electronic devices you're using and it's obvious there's something wrong with the Russian mindset when it comes to managing economies. How many of the goods in your house are Russian? Also, I'd like to point out that China didn't join the world economy until the 1980s and for a long period before that a crazy dictator called Mao Ze Dong ran China's (already poor) economy into a famine. There's really no excuse for Russia's under-performing economy. The Russians have always been bad at developing a manufacturing or tech base. The Russians had 10 years of trouble? Pffft. QQ. China had a century of war and famine. Japan was devastated after WWII. Look at them now, and compare their economies to Russia's. Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law. The evidence is in front of you. Wrong? Wrong is right. Your last post had a lot of wrong in it. I addressed all sorts of fallacies (probably the best was putting China and Singapore on the same level). You didn't reply to nearly all of my previous post, so I take it you agree with at least most of my points. But this most recent post adds more wrong, as well. See spoiler for more details. "Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law." Mmm, dat country bashing. See spoiler for more. + Show Spoiler + I see you didn't even read my last post clearly. When was I ever talking about Russian tech products/industry? I clearly stated that the US is indisputed in this area, with Japan coming closest. I never said anything about Russia having monster tech industry or anything. As for China, I can't name a single tech company or electronics producer in China (except Lenovo, which was literally built up by an acquisition of a subdivision of IBM). I have no idea why you're saying China is something on par with the US or even Japan when it comes to this area. They just manufacture foreign companies' products. I have absolutely nothing from actually developed from China. Just manufactures of American and Samsung companies' products. lol In all my post, I did not state a single thing about Russian manufacturing. Not sure where you'll pulling this from. I certainly did not say this. Considering they're a service-oriented economy and can get manufactured goods for cheap like many other countries from countries with wage slavery like China, there's no need for it. The same goes for other European countries, USA, etc. which all have many things that were manufactured in places where the labor is practically free. Russia was destroyed magnitudes more than Japan was in WW2 (sorry to correct you yet again), had communism, and had the greatest economic disaster that practically any single country experienced in the modern era (and yes, that's even with considering the Great Depression). And yet is still doing quite better than China. And China is far behind Russia and most other Soviet bloc countries. It is terribly underdeveloped, unadvanced, and impoverished (even relatively speaking). Half of the population are rural peasants. This is even with the combination of an infinite labor source and slave wages no one else has that has attracted more investment than anywhere in history. But even a tiny country like South Korea that was among the poorest places in Asia at one point is today doing infinitely better than China, too. Like, I used to disagree, but when people straight from China are telling me how much worse China is compared to Western Europe, Eastern Europe, USA, you name it, well, I'm inclined to agree with them. "Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally." Please remind me, what region is controlled by Russia except Russia? Or are you implying that there is there some kind of conspiracy where Russia controls the entire 3rd world? And despite all the "bad stuff" that has happened to China, it's, quite understandably, still many leagues worse off than Russia, not better lol. I have no idea why you are stating otherwise. Even with all the optimistic assessments and comments that can be made, the Chinese economy is very often described as a "bubble". I have not heard once about the Chinese economy without it being referred to as a bubble. Sooner or later, that bubble is going to pop, making the gap between China and its "competitors" like US and various European countries a lot larger. Also, most (as in like 95% or more) economies in the world cannot compete globally. Not even China can, except in the area of dirt-cheap, plentiful labor. With a giant population and giant investment, you'd think they'd be big somewhere else, but they aren't. That is literally all they have to offer and literally the only way they can compete. But the US, a handful of European countries, and Japan, ie. the global competitors as you put it, are only a fraction of the entire world. I don't expect a country like Russia that adopted a non-redistributive, globalized economic structure realistically not even a decade and a half ago to be a global competitor, and I never said they were. Not sure why you're implying I said this when I clearly didn't. In my last post, I actually said nothing good about Russia being good or otherwise, except that they're far better off than China and certainly India. "China had a century of war and famine." This actually describes Russia/USSR pretty well too, if not better. lol. I'm sorry to break it to you. And I wouldn't say "Pfft" to an economic collapse that makes the Great Depression look like a jolly old time. FWIW, people here in the US would laugh at anyone who said "Pfft" about the Great Depression at that. With that said, I doubt most people even know what the Great Depression was heh. Anyhow, besides attacking a couple of strawmen, I take it you agree with everything else in my last post, including the strange assertions and contradictions that I addressed as well (like putting Singapore and China on the same level, or how India was an amazing country far beyond Russia or anywhere else in Europe... LOL!). ======================================================================= Anyways, back to Ukraine: In the struggle with separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian govt. is very obviously having big troubles. So, they've turned to right-wing paramilitary groups to help them out. Well, the current concern is now the Ukrainian govt. can't control these militias either. With Donbass Battalion being backed by Ihor Kolomoysky (big corrupt guy), Right Sector (right-wing fascist group), and other paramilitary factions, this is probably only going to increase the level of chaos. When you let mad dogs off their leashes, what result can you expect? I think this was a mistake of the Ukrainian govt. to try to rely on paramilitaries. This will only add to the violence and chaos, and as these guys are a lot less disciplined than actual military forces and some are hard-core right-wing extremists, there's more cause for concern for atrocities occurring that would only strengthen and justify the cause of the separatists themselves. It's bad when you have one faction of ragtag uncontrolled guys like the separatists. It's worse when you add another. With continued insurgent successes, the violence is bound to only get worse and prolonged. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/world/europe/ukraine-faces-struggle-to-gain-control-of-militias-including-those-on-its-side.html?_r=0 The origins of the clash were in dispute. Before the shooting had stopped, Semyon Semenchenko, the battalion’s leader, claimed that his fighters had been ambushed near a rebel checkpoint in Karlovka, a village about 45 minutes’ drive from Donetsk. Locals and pro-Russian fighters, however, said that Mr. Semenchenko had led an assault on the checkpoint and found himself surrounded when enemy reinforcements arrived. The battle showed the devastating potential for violence between ad hoc militias, some with little formal training, which could continue even if clashes between the Ukrainian Army and the rebels cease. Until Friday, the Donbass Battalion had seen little action, and was known best for storming a police station in the small town of Velyka Novosilka. Yet the levels of violence have escalated recently. As many as 15 Ukrainian conscript soldiers were killed in an ambush on Thursday at a checkpoint on an isolated country road about an hour south of Donetsk. Also, so much for sanctions >_> Basically, now apparently Putin is trying to play "good guy" and is getting promptly rewarded for it. So Russia annexed a peninsula, and now Putin is being seen as a leader in resolving the Ukraine crisis? Wow. I don't exactly comprehend this. Markets rallied and the ruble surged in value against the dollar Friday as the CEOs and economic experts at the forum praised Putin's efforts to defuse the tensions. The Russian leader also voiced hopes of mending ties with the United States and the 28-nation European Union, which have slapped asset freezes and travel bans on members of Putin's entourage and had threatened to introduce more crippling sanctions if Russia tried to derail Sunday's vote in Ukraine. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-russia-will-respect-ukraine-election-results/ | ||
RvB
Netherlands6144 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On May 24 2014 19:36 RvB wrote: Can the Ukrainian forces really stop the nationalists from fighting though? They can't even handle the seperatists let alone the seperatists and the nationalists. IMHO, if they can't even keep a leash on the nationalists who are supposedly on their side, then this is going to get a lot uglier . | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
The Security Service of Ukraine has liquidated a virus malware on the Central Electoral Commission server that was to destroy results of the presidential election, SBU Chairman Valentyn Nalyvaichenko has told a news briefing. He says the SBU has stepped up measures to protect the CEC server and together with community activists from internet organisations is taking charge of preventing malware. Nalyvaichenko says on May 22 they found out that the program, proposed to the CEC by the previous government, was malicious and spreading viruses in the system. "This virus was to destroy election outcome on May 25. We liquidated this virus," said the SBU chief. He also says the SBU has toughened security of ballot papers and polling stations. Source. Apparently the liquidation has not been unproblematic after all: No further news on the topic. *** The main news is all the deaths on the side of the separatists, right sector and donbass battalion but as the news is tweeted pictures I can't post them. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13378 Posts
On May 24 2014 20:31 Ghanburighan wrote: New development, cyber warfare trying to disrupt the election: Apparently the liquidation has not been unproblematic after all: https://twitter.com/jamiewrit/status/470155346900946944 No further news on the topic. *** The main news is all the deaths on the side of the separatists, right sector and donbass battalion but as the news is tweeted pictures I can't post them. Keep an eye out for a new site, all this seems interesting. Also - the cyber attacks dont surprise me. I doubt the ukraine government could account for every possible attack vector especially when the country is in what amounts to a civil cold war. | ||
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