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On May 19 2014 13:52 Serpest wrote:China and the US have a ridiculously large trading network that dwarfs Russia/China. I don't see china willing to lose the high tech for mere ideology. After all, China moved away from ideology after Mao with Deng XiaoPing, and there is significant monetary investment on both sides particularly in education. So no. A Sino-Russian alliance would pale in the face of a Sino-American one. Top 10 Trading Partners of China: (hint: US is number one) http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-02/19/content_17290565.htm
Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources.
In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China.
For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours.
The irony of course is that with the money they're making, the Chinese capitalists will be spending that money in the EU or US because our service, and financial sector, and environment (both political and natural) is a dozen times better. In other words they'll be snapping up real estate and American bonds, putting the money in US banks and hedge funds, and sending their children to our expensive colleges, which means at the least they'll get a taste of American culture and politics. So... the money goes full circle.
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On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 13:52 Serpest wrote:China and the US have a ridiculously large trading network that dwarfs Russia/China. I don't see china willing to lose the high tech for mere ideology. After all, China moved away from ideology after Mao with Deng XiaoPing, and there is significant monetary investment on both sides particularly in education. So no. A Sino-Russian alliance would pale in the face of a Sino-American one. Top 10 Trading Partners of China: (hint: US is number one) http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-02/19/content_17290565.htm Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources. In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China. For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours. The irony of course is that with the money they're making, the Chinese capitalists will be spending that money in the EU or US because our service, and financial sector, and environment (both political and natural) is a dozen times better. In other words they'll be snapping up real estate and American bonds, putting the money in US banks and hedge funds, and sending their children to our expensive colleges, which means at the least they'll get a taste of American culture and politics. So... the money goes full circle.
Idk what finished goods Russia will export to America, plz give us examples of the mighty Russian manufacture industry.
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On May 19 2014 14:53 Acertos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:On May 19 2014 13:52 Serpest wrote:China and the US have a ridiculously large trading network that dwarfs Russia/China. I don't see china willing to lose the high tech for mere ideology. After all, China moved away from ideology after Mao with Deng XiaoPing, and there is significant monetary investment on both sides particularly in education. So no. A Sino-Russian alliance would pale in the face of a Sino-American one. Top 10 Trading Partners of China: (hint: US is number one) http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-02/19/content_17290565.htm Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources. In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China. For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours. The irony of course is that with the money they're making, the Chinese capitalists will be spending that money in the EU or US because our service, and financial sector, and environment (both political and natural) is a dozen times better. In other words they'll be snapping up real estate and American bonds, putting the money in US banks and hedge funds, and sending their children to our expensive colleges, which means at the least they'll get a taste of American culture and politics. So... the money goes full circle. Idk what finished goods Russia will export to America, plz give us examples of the mighty Russian manufacture industry.
"In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. "
L2R.
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On May 19 2014 14:58 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:53 Acertos wrote:On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:On May 19 2014 13:52 Serpest wrote:China and the US have a ridiculously large trading network that dwarfs Russia/China. I don't see china willing to lose the high tech for mere ideology. After all, China moved away from ideology after Mao with Deng XiaoPing, and there is significant monetary investment on both sides particularly in education. So no. A Sino-Russian alliance would pale in the face of a Sino-American one. Top 10 Trading Partners of China: (hint: US is number one) http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-02/19/content_17290565.htm Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources. In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China. For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours. The irony of course is that with the money they're making, the Chinese capitalists will be spending that money in the EU or US because our service, and financial sector, and environment (both political and natural) is a dozen times better. In other words they'll be snapping up real estate and American bonds, putting the money in US banks and hedge funds, and sending their children to our expensive colleges, which means at the least they'll get a taste of American culture and politics. So... the money goes full circle. Idk what finished goods Russia will export to America, plz give us examples of the mighty Russian manufacture industry. "In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. " L2R.
Yup. As in China will be importing resources from Russia. And China (not Russia) will then be exporting the finished goods to America.
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On May 19 2014 11:52 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 09:02 Cheerio wrote:On May 19 2014 08:39 EtherealBlade wrote:On May 19 2014 07:51 Cheerio wrote:On May 19 2014 06:43 Gorsameth wrote:On May 19 2014 06:39 likeasu wrote:On March 04 2014 05:34 likeasu wrote:
hey, guys from US, UK and another. Relax, ok?
First of all, I wanna You switch ON your brains. Russia will never start war against Ukraine. NEVER.
The only one thing why Russia can enter troopers on Crimea- is save Crimea people from quality of new Ukraine goverment. New Ukraine politic faces (Turchinov, Yaceniuk, Klichko) are EMPTY places in fact. They are only PR-persons. They havnt a really power in country. Anothers person rules Ukraine now- people with money and guns in hands (far right extremists form "Praviy sektor" UNA UNSO and so on). And these extrimists used Euromaidan to take power in hands. People who was on Euromaidan are about 0,1% of all Ukraine. The most of them were standing for bright and good ideas. And do you think these ordinary people won? NO! They were just used and fucked by terrorists and Ukraine aligarhs (if you dont belive my words - check up that 2 aligarhs are already now regional governors).
And dont blame Russia if you know all facts. Better ask yourself about United States.
USA bombed more then 10 countries last 15 years. USA supported military revolutions is East, S.America, Africa. And now in Ukraine. Goverment of USA is really hypocriticals fucking bustards.
Russia WILL NEVER FIGHT against Ukranian. Casual people of Russia and Ukraine are brothers. it was march message.... actually this: The most of them were standing for bright and good ideas. And do you think these ordinary people won? NO! They were just used and fucked by terrorists and Ukraine aligarhs thank you for reminding us that everything you said was BS. good job! meh, wanted to post this. On May 19 2014 06:56 PaleMan wrote:
...and Cheerio still thinks Maidan is a huge win :facepalm.jpg: Most people in this thread agree that corruption is the biggest problem for Ukraine. Driving out the most corrupt President Ukraine ever had, and letting anyone who takes his place know, that the same will happen to him if he would be doing the same, looks like a step in the right direction. And another big step forward is the chosen path of EU integration. Sorry, Russians, but no matter how bad democracy looks like, its still far better than whatever you are up to. Russia, goodbye. Except the EU has no interest in ever letting Ukraine join, and it's not like the country will start with a clean slate after the upcoming elections. This is going to be another failed "revolution" like the one with Yuschenko, except Yanukovich probably won't be coming back. I think it's too early to say considering any real possibility of membership is probably at least 10 years away. Hell, I'm not even sure EU will still exist in 10 years. That's not the point. The point is changing the country up to European standards. And I'm sure Europeans would be willing to help. Go find more quotes first. Second go visit your own country peripheral zones, i can tell already Central Ukraine, a very poor region before, is ever poorer now, prices are up, salarys stay the same, infrastructure is in state of decay since 1991 or maybe a bit earlier. What European standarts are you talking about ? I live in europe, no one wants you here, im sorry, not you but the country which is in so far below average european level that bringing it back will cost a lot and given the state of economy right now in EU is quiete clear you're on your own, just you and your maidan ideas. Country is in fucking ruin , you got nothing to do with it, im not saying that, but at least try to analize the economic situation, which is why you want into EU in the first place, because if the situation would be good with Russia, you would be calling them brothers , am i right ? Probably you were listening some russian songs not so long ago, maybe watching some series, reading books in russian, now sudently you calling Goodbyes, you're your own enemy.
We aren't talking about Ukraine joining the EU. We are talking about an association agreement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement
The EU has free-trade deals with dozens of countries through out the world, and political/developmental agreements with many countries also. This isn't like Ukraine (or any of these countries) will be joining the EU anytime soon.
Of course the EU association agreement is more comprehensive than most of these agreements, but the point is that this isn't the EU 'sacrificing' itself to bring it to the European level. It is mostly just to "help" Ukraine, and eventually decades down the road, Ukraine might join the EU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement
Even Poroshenko said something about joining the EU by 2025 at the earliest. His estimate is obviously very optimistic, but the point is that both parties see this as an agreement to help stabilize Ukraine's economy and develop social-democratic norms in a country that has been ruled by crony-capitalism for decades.
As to the EU-association agreement meaning abandoning cultural ties w/ Russia... that's utter BS. Many Ukrainians simply don't want to be Russia's pet country, but an independent 'normal' country. The EU association agreement is a step in that direction.
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Hungary2735 Posts
On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:
Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources.
In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China.
For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours.
Sure, they'll make a deal but China will squeeze them hard. Russians seem to think that China will jump at the opportunity to create an anti-US alliance. In reality they'll see the conflict as a weakness and exploit it to get a lower price or some other favourable terms (say option to renegotiate price after 5 or 10 years)
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On May 19 2014 16:14 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:
Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources.
In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China.
For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours. Sure, they'll make a deal but China will squeeze them hard. Russians seem to think that China will jump at the opportunity to create an anti-US alliance. In reality they'll see the conflict as a weakness and exploit it to get a lower price or some other favourable terms (say option to renegotiate price after 5 or 10 years)
Things will begin to look REAL nice to the Chinese in the next couple of years.
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On May 19 2014 16:22 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:14 hypercube wrote:On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:
Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources.
In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China.
For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours. Sure, they'll make a deal but China will squeeze them hard. Russians seem to think that China will jump at the opportunity to create an anti-US alliance. In reality they'll see the conflict as a weakness and exploit it to get a lower price or some other favourable terms (say option to renegotiate price after 5 or 10 years) Things will begin to look REAL nice to the Chinese in the next couple of years.
Not so sure, China is faced with social problems: a rising middle that wants more democracy especially in Hong Kong; the aging problem, a direct consequence of the unique child police.
With these two problems, the Chinese will want more pensions, subsidies, liberties etc... And it s not sure that the regime will agree and will be able to maintain the situation. The transition of China to a democratic country will be done in 2100 but we don t know when or how. Perhaps in 10 or 20 yrs with a big movement and a bloodshed or a long and relatively peaceful.
Contrary to normal belief the commercial balance pf China isn t so positive and lower than the German one for example. China will have to rise its minimal salaries because of the rising class and as a liberal country we can expect investments to start to leave it for poorer countries. There is also the problem of energy and pollution in China which is a growing one as its consuption is growing.
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Round 12390131 of the same nonsense. I guess we just wait for the next NATO flyover to see whether Putin's words have meaning for a change. :
***
I'm also glad to see you guys covered the Crimean Tatar deportation rally so very accurately yesterday when I was gone.
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TeamLiquid.net, where threads about Ukraine somehow become about China 
Anyways, a UN official is stating the the civil crisis in Ukraine is worsening and is reaching a "point of no return." Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better.
Ukraine is edging towards "the point of no return", a senior UN official says, amid rising tensions between security forces and pro-Russia separatists.
UN Assistant Secretary General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic told the BBC that the crisis had worrying echoes of the 1990s war in his native Croatia.
Reports from eastern Ukraine say clashes between government forces and separatist militants have continued.
The separatists have not taken part in EU-brokered talks to defuse the crisis.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27458871
On May 19 2014 16:14 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:25 marigoldran wrote:
Just because China trades with America doesn't mean it can't cut deals with Russia. Russia is closer and has more natural resources.
In other words: China will be importing resources from Russia. And exporting the finished goods to America. In other words: value added. An extremely, EXTREMELY profitable deal for China.
For Russia, they have no choice: especially if their relations with the EU sours. Sure, they'll make a deal but China will squeeze them hard. Russians seem to think that China will jump at the opportunity to create an anti-US alliance. In reality they'll see the conflict as a weakness and exploit it to get a lower price or some other favourable terms (say option to renegotiate price after 5 or 10 years)
I think that the Russians are not even anywhere close to being as naive as you imply they are. They aren't dumb. Quite the opposite really. They know Chinese policy tit-for-tat, which is already pretty obvious to regular people like us. Political relations and economic agreements doesn't mean "let's form an anti-US alliance" (hypothetically assuming such a thing existed).
For Russia, this means opening up the other side of the Eurasian world for business, as they steadily re-construct other industries/services. Nonetheless, in an ideal future, there wouldn't be US/Russia shit-flinging and conflicts of interest, Russia would join the European Union, and there would be a more legitimate Eurocentric bloc.
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@Judicator
"Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better."
To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken.
I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist 
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On May 19 2014 18:59 Mc wrote:@Judicator To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken. I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist
Nervous yup yup yup . Well yeah, it took a long time, but they're finally realizing Russia doesn't give a fuck about them. Nor do I (or ever did) see any serious reason Russia would ever intervene unless the Ukrainian govt. was massacring people Ottoman-style. These places are so ridiculously poor and unstable and corrupt, it's depressing. The only reason Russia would ever have to step foot anywhere inside is to see how long it would take for the armored columns to meet up for tea time with the paratroopers in Kiev, but obviously, no one (well, almost no one) treats military conflict so ludicrously.
Yeah, let's see who wins the election. Porkyshenko or Queen Cersei Lannister Tymoshenko. Either way, Ukraine is fucked, as unfortunate as it is 
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On May 19 2014 19:07 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 18:59 Mc wrote:@Judicator
"Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better."
To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken. I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist Nervous yup yup yup . Well yeah, it took a long time, but they're finally realizing Russia doesn't give a fuck about them. Nor do I (or ever did) see any serious reason Russia would ever intervene unless the Ukrainian govt. was massacring people Ottoman-style. These places are so ridiculously poor and unstable and corrupt, it's depressing. The only reason Russia would ever have to step foot anywhere inside is to see how long it would take for the armored columns to meet up for tea time with the paratroopers in Kiev, but obviously, no one (well, almost no one) treats military conflict so ludicrously. Yeah, let's see who wins the election. Porkyshenko or Queen Cersei Lannister Tymoshenko. Either way, Ukraine is fucked, as unfortunate as it is
Nah, Porkyshenko will probably win the election in the 1st turn. Gas Queen has below 10% of support. That is better outcome, I think if she won the election, the Ukraine would be not so much fucked but rather raped.
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On May 19 2014 19:07 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 18:59 Mc wrote:@Judicator
"Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better."
To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken. I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist Nervous yup yup yup . Well yeah, it took a long time, but they're finally realizing Russia doesn't give a fuck about them. Nor do I (or ever did) see any serious reason Russia would ever intervene unless the Ukrainian govt. was massacring people Ottoman-style. These places are so ridiculously poor and unstable and corrupt, it's depressing. The only reason Russia would ever have to step foot anywhere inside is to see how long it would take for the armored columns to meet up for tea time with the paratroopers in Kiev, but obviously, no one (well, almost no one) treats military conflict so ludicrously. Yeah, let's see who wins the election. Porkyshenko or Queen Cersei Lannister Tymoshenko. Either way, Ukraine is fucked, as unfortunate as it is
Agree with pretty much everything except that Poroshenko should win easily unless something drastic happens. Tyomshenko won't win regardless. And I wouldn't characterize Ukraine as "fucked" necessarily. They have a chance to try and introduce economic/democratic reforms and if you've hit rock-bottom you can only go up
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Hungary2735 Posts
On May 19 2014 18:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
I think that the Russians are not even anywhere close to being as naive as you imply they are. They aren't dumb. Quite the opposite really. They know Chinese policy tit-for-tat, which is already pretty obvious to regular people like us. Political relations and economic agreements doesn't mean "let's form an anti-US alliance" (hypothetically assuming such a thing existed).
Well, that's the impression I've got from some Russian posters here. I didn't mean the Russian leadership ofc, I imagine they are quite realistic.
For Russia, this means opening up the other side of the Eurasian world for business, as they steadily re-construct other industries/services. Nonetheless, in an ideal future, there wouldn't be US/Russia shit-flinging and conflicts of interest, Russia would join the European Union, and there would be a more legitimate Eurocentric bloc.
I don't see how Russia can develop other industries without access to foreign capital and expertise and with the threat of more extensive sanctions hanging over their head. Plus there's unfavourable demographics and increased military spending all taking money away from investment.
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On May 19 2014 19:35 Mc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 19:07 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 19 2014 18:59 Mc wrote:@Judicator
"Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better."
To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken. I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist Nervous yup yup yup . Well yeah, it took a long time, but they're finally realizing Russia doesn't give a fuck about them. Nor do I (or ever did) see any serious reason Russia would ever intervene unless the Ukrainian govt. was massacring people Ottoman-style. These places are so ridiculously poor and unstable and corrupt, it's depressing. The only reason Russia would ever have to step foot anywhere inside is to see how long it would take for the armored columns to meet up for tea time with the paratroopers in Kiev, but obviously, no one (well, almost no one) treats military conflict so ludicrously. Yeah, let's see who wins the election. Porkyshenko or Queen Cersei Lannister Tymoshenko. Either way, Ukraine is fucked, as unfortunate as it is Agree with pretty much everything except that Poroshenko should win easily unless something drastic happens. Tyomshenko won't win regardless. And I wouldn't characterize Ukraine as "fucked" necessarily. They have a chance to try and introduce economic/democratic reforms and if you've hit rock-bottom you can only go up
Rock-bottom in my dictionary is North Korea, Ukraine has still a lot of space under its ass. Poroshenko is no doubt a better choice, but he is pretty fucking far from being an ideal candidate. At least he has clean record of convictions and trials so far, and I did not hear of any controversy concerning his business practices, which could not be said of Queen Yulia.
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On May 19 2014 19:43 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 19:35 Mc wrote:On May 19 2014 19:07 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 19 2014 18:59 Mc wrote:@Judicator
"Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better."
To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken. I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist Nervous yup yup yup . Well yeah, it took a long time, but they're finally realizing Russia doesn't give a fuck about them. Nor do I (or ever did) see any serious reason Russia would ever intervene unless the Ukrainian govt. was massacring people Ottoman-style. These places are so ridiculously poor and unstable and corrupt, it's depressing. The only reason Russia would ever have to step foot anywhere inside is to see how long it would take for the armored columns to meet up for tea time with the paratroopers in Kiev, but obviously, no one (well, almost no one) treats military conflict so ludicrously. Yeah, let's see who wins the election. Porkyshenko or Queen Cersei Lannister Tymoshenko. Either way, Ukraine is fucked, as unfortunate as it is Agree with pretty much everything except that Poroshenko should win easily unless something drastic happens. Tyomshenko won't win regardless. And I wouldn't characterize Ukraine as "fucked" necessarily. They have a chance to try and introduce economic/democratic reforms and if you've hit rock-bottom you can only go up Rock-bottom in my dictionary is North Korea, Ukraine has still a lot of space under its ass. Poroshenko is no doubt a better choice, but he is pretty fucking far from being an ideal candidate. At least he has clean record of convictions and trials so far, and I did not hear of any controversy concerning his business practices, which could not be said of Queen Yulia.
So what is about Poroshenkos retirement in 2005? Yes, he wasn't convicted for all those claims against him, but it is hard to get convicted for corruption in Ukraine, if you have enough money and aren't the political enemy of their current leader...
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On May 19 2014 19:50 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 19:43 Roman666 wrote:On May 19 2014 19:35 Mc wrote:On May 19 2014 19:07 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 19 2014 18:59 Mc wrote:@Judicator
"Well, to say the least, the situation certainly isn't getting better."
To me it seems like the separatist movement is losing steam in the East. Slavyansk is their stronghold where they are holding on, but regardless of how incompetent the Ukrainian army it seems to advancing, while the rebel leaders are giving nervous interviews about lack of support and traitors. Other cities have already been retaken. I feel like the resolution will be capitulation from separatists plus elections. I think the elections will (or at least) should be post-poned until the separatists capitulate. I'd bet that within a month there will be elections and within two weeks the separatists will be defeated. Maybe I'm an optimist Nervous yup yup yup . Well yeah, it took a long time, but they're finally realizing Russia doesn't give a fuck about them. Nor do I (or ever did) see any serious reason Russia would ever intervene unless the Ukrainian govt. was massacring people Ottoman-style. These places are so ridiculously poor and unstable and corrupt, it's depressing. The only reason Russia would ever have to step foot anywhere inside is to see how long it would take for the armored columns to meet up for tea time with the paratroopers in Kiev, but obviously, no one (well, almost no one) treats military conflict so ludicrously. Yeah, let's see who wins the election. Porkyshenko or Queen Cersei Lannister Tymoshenko. Either way, Ukraine is fucked, as unfortunate as it is Agree with pretty much everything except that Poroshenko should win easily unless something drastic happens. Tyomshenko won't win regardless. And I wouldn't characterize Ukraine as "fucked" necessarily. They have a chance to try and introduce economic/democratic reforms and if you've hit rock-bottom you can only go up Rock-bottom in my dictionary is North Korea, Ukraine has still a lot of space under its ass. Poroshenko is no doubt a better choice, but he is pretty fucking far from being an ideal candidate. At least he has clean record of convictions and trials so far, and I did not hear of any controversy concerning his business practices, which could not be said of Queen Yulia. So what is about Poroshenkos retirement in 2005? Yes, he wasn't convicted for all those claims against him, but it is hard to get convicted for corruption in Ukraine, if you have enough money and aren't the political enemy of their current leader...
Somehow missed that part, getting up to speed with it. I wasn't aware he was a part of Yushchenko govt. Thanks for pointing it out. Either way, this is even more damning for him being a good candidate.
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On May 19 2014 11:52 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 09:02 Cheerio wrote:On May 19 2014 08:39 EtherealBlade wrote:On May 19 2014 07:51 Cheerio wrote:On May 19 2014 06:43 Gorsameth wrote:On May 19 2014 06:39 likeasu wrote:On March 04 2014 05:34 likeasu wrote:
hey, guys from US, UK and another. Relax, ok?
First of all, I wanna You switch ON your brains. Russia will never start war against Ukraine. NEVER.
The only one thing why Russia can enter troopers on Crimea- is save Crimea people from quality of new Ukraine goverment. New Ukraine politic faces (Turchinov, Yaceniuk, Klichko) are EMPTY places in fact. They are only PR-persons. They havnt a really power in country. Anothers person rules Ukraine now- people with money and guns in hands (far right extremists form "Praviy sektor" UNA UNSO and so on). And these extrimists used Euromaidan to take power in hands. People who was on Euromaidan are about 0,1% of all Ukraine. The most of them were standing for bright and good ideas. And do you think these ordinary people won? NO! They were just used and fucked by terrorists and Ukraine aligarhs (if you dont belive my words - check up that 2 aligarhs are already now regional governors).
And dont blame Russia if you know all facts. Better ask yourself about United States.
USA bombed more then 10 countries last 15 years. USA supported military revolutions is East, S.America, Africa. And now in Ukraine. Goverment of USA is really hypocriticals fucking bustards.
Russia WILL NEVER FIGHT against Ukranian. Casual people of Russia and Ukraine are brothers. it was march message.... actually this: The most of them were standing for bright and good ideas. And do you think these ordinary people won? NO! They were just used and fucked by terrorists and Ukraine aligarhs thank you for reminding us that everything you said was BS. good job! meh, wanted to post this. On May 19 2014 06:56 PaleMan wrote:
...and Cheerio still thinks Maidan is a huge win :facepalm.jpg: Most people in this thread agree that corruption is the biggest problem for Ukraine. Driving out the most corrupt President Ukraine ever had, and letting anyone who takes his place know, that the same will happen to him if he would be doing the same, looks like a step in the right direction. And another big step forward is the chosen path of EU integration. Sorry, Russians, but no matter how bad democracy looks like, its still far better than whatever you are up to. Russia, goodbye. Except the EU has no interest in ever letting Ukraine join, and it's not like the country will start with a clean slate after the upcoming elections. This is going to be another failed "revolution" like the one with Yuschenko, except Yanukovich probably won't be coming back. I think it's too early to say considering any real possibility of membership is probably at least 10 years away. Hell, I'm not even sure EU will still exist in 10 years. That's not the point. The point is changing the country up to European standards. And I'm sure Europeans would be willing to help. Go find more quotes first. Second go visit your own country peripheral zones, i can tell already Central Ukraine, a very poor region before, is ever poorer now, prices are up, salarys stay the same, infrastructure is in state of decay since 1991 or maybe a bit earlier. What European standarts are you talking about ? I live in europe, no one wants you here, im sorry, not you but the country which is in so far below average european level that bringing it back will cost a lot and given the state of economy right now in EU is quiete clear you're on your own, just you and your maidan ideas. Country is in fucking ruin , you got nothing to do with it, im not saying that, but at least try to analize the economic situation, which is why you want into EU in the first place, because if the situation would be good with Russia, you would be calling them brothers , am i right ? Probably you were listening some russian songs not so long ago, maybe watching some series, reading books in russian, now sudently you calling Goodbyes, you're your own enemy.
So, why are you in "Europe" (meaning EU?) and not in Russia? This reminds me of Russian (and Ukrainian pro-Russian) politicians who talk shit about the West, but their children somehow are all there.
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EPT
