EPT
I had some of my friends lose some of their relatives in the buildings, and they didn't come to school today, I doubt they'll come tomorrow either. Doesn't directly effect me that much but lots of people died and that sucks.
September 11 2007
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
I had some of my friends lose some of their relatives in the buildings, and they didn't come to school today, I doubt they'll come tomorrow either. Doesn't directly effect me that much but lots of people died and that sucks. | ||
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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KwarK
United States41574 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:11 Kwark wrote: I'll be flamed for this but I think it's overhyped. I've lost relatives, just not to terrorism. Come the anniversary of their death I don't take the day off and bemoan my situation. And 3000 people is nothing in the big scheme of things. People die all the time. 9/11 has gained a symbolism far beyond what it is in real terms. Sure it's tragic for the families of the victims but it's unremarkable and gets far more attention than it merits. That's true but it's a major event that caused a war too, that's another ~3,000 soldiers there too, and hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. It's not a holocaust but it's something to have to mourn about (but yeah I don't know why they should take school off but that's their choice) + Show Spoiler + plus the controversies of the attack | ||
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:11 Kwark wrote: I'll be flamed for this but I think it's overhyped. I've lost relatives, just not to terrorism. They're not any less dead because of the way they died. Come the anniversary of their death I don't take the day off and bemoan my situation. And 3000 people is nothing in the big scheme of things. People die all the time. 9/11 has gained a symbolism far beyond what it is in real terms. Sure it's tragic for the families of the victims but it's unremarkable and gets far more attention than it merits. QFT. | ||
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boghat
United States2109 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:11 Kwark wrote: I'll be flamed for this but I think it's overhyped. I've lost relatives, just not to terrorism. They're not any less dead because of the way they died. Come the anniversary of their death I don't take the day off and bemoan my situation. And 3000 people is nothing in the big scheme of things. People die all the time. 9/11 has gained a symbolism far beyond what it is in real terms. Sure it's tragic for the families of the victims but it's unremarkable and gets far more attention than it merits. When a family member or friend or whoever is murdered it is usually a very big difference than if they simply died for reasons other than murder. 3000 people were murdered that day. Even beyond the death factor, 9/11 is a pretty unique situation involving commercial jets being hijacked and flown into skyscrapers and killing 3000 people in a non-state sponsered terrorism attack. That is a pretty extraordinary incident, when's the last time that happened? One could easily argue (and I think I definitely would) that 9/11 is far more "remarkable" than a natural disaster that kills a lot more because natural disasters happen all the time and usually don't have any political involvement. The scope of 9/11 reaches far beyond simply the deaths. Look at what has happened in the years after it and tell me again it's unremarkable. This isn't an argument for any political stance or anything and it's not a flame I just think what you said is pretty stupid. | ||
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KwarK
United States41574 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:26 boghat wrote: When a family member or friend or whoever is murdered it is usually a very big difference than if they simply died for reasons other than murder. 3000 people were murdered that day. Even beyond the death factor, 9/11 is a pretty unique situation involving commercial jets being hijacked and flown into skyscrapers and killing 3000 people in a non-state sponsered terrorism attack. That is a pretty extraordinary incident, when's the last time that happened? One could easily argue (and I think I definitely would) that 9/11 is far more "remarkable" than a natural disaster that kills a lot more because natural disasters happen all the time and usually don't have any political involvement. The scope of 9/11 reaches far beyond simply the deaths. Look at what has happened in the years after it and tell me again it's unremarkable. This isn't an argument for any political stance or anything and it's not a flame I just think what you said is pretty stupid. If they're murdered they're just as dead as if they're hit by a car. 9/11 was a tragedy. But the world is full of tragedies and this one isn't especially big as tragedies go. Take the boxing day tsunami. Killed maybe a hundred times as many people. Sure they weren't murdered, it was a natural disaster. But is a death due to terrorism more tragic than a 100 from a natural disaster? Obviously not. And yet come the anniversary of that we'll have a documentary on the recovery program and a few charities asking for money. So the murder argument just doesn't follow. Sure it had a big impact. Many events do. Take the collapse of the USSR. It redefined global politics, creating a new era of a single superpower with a dominance unlike any the world had ever seen. Even at the height of the British Empire it lacked the power the USA currently wields. Far, far more significant than 9/11. Is it hyped as much? No. I'm not saying it wasn't tragic and I'm not saying it didn't have an impact on the world. I'm saying it that in real terms it wasn't very tragic and that while the impact will most likely define USA foreign policy for a decade that is far less than other far less publicised events. | ||
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boghat
United States2109 Posts
Regarding the personal aspect of losing someone, everyone is obviously unique about how they grieve. However, I think to most people it does make a big difference how someone dies. Yes, they aren't coming back but you can see how they were killed and try to prevent that from happening to people in the future. With a tsunami it's hard to do much except have better preparation and relief, etc. but with terrorism and other murder you would like to think it could be directly stopped and put an end to. There's no justice to get from a tsunami but there's justice to pay when terrorists blow up buildings. I don't know how your relatives died but I know for me my grandfather dying at 77 from health problems of old age would be very different than if I lost someone on 9/11. I don't know how I would react in regards to grieving but that doesn't matter anyway. If I had a relative die in a tsunami or other natural disaster though I guess it wouldn't be any different than if they died on 9/11. I'm not sure we are disagreeing on anything actually. | ||
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micronesia
United States24483 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:13 Superiorwolf wrote: That's true but it's a major event that caused a war too, that's another ~3,000 soldiers there too, and hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. Actually it didn't really cause the war. It was an excuse to start a war that was waiting for an opportunity. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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KwarK
United States41574 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:49 boghat wrote: Okay there is like two lines of argument here. There's the political/world impact one and then the personal one about losing someone to death. Regarding the world impact aspect, I would say 9/11 did have a greater impact than that tsunami just because it had far reaching political implications whereas the tusnamic was just a tragic natural disaster. Why compare events that happened ~17 years ago (USSR collapse) to one that happened 7 years ago? You can't really do that because history is a chain of events that influence each other and if the USSR hadn't collapsed 9/11 might not have even happened. Plus more recent events will obviously usually be more important in the present time. Regarding the personal aspect of losing someone, everyone is obviously unique about how they grieve. However, I think to most people it does make a big difference how someone dies. Yes, they aren't coming back but you can see how they were killed and try to prevent that from happening to people in the future. With a tsunami it's hard to do much except have better preparation and relief, etc. but with terrorism and other murder you would like to think it could be directly stopped and put an end to. There's no justice to get from a tsunami but there's justice to pay when terrorists blow up buildings. I don't know how your relatives died but I know for me my grandfather dying at 77 from health problems of old age would be very different than if I lost someone on 9/11. I don't know how I would react in regards to grieving but that doesn't matter anyway. If I had a relative die in a tsunami or other natural disaster though I guess it wouldn't be any different than if they died on 9/11. I'm not sure we are disagreeing on anything actually. You're crossing my comparisons. I was comparing 9/11 to the tsunami as a tragedy and saying it is clearly given more media attention than it deserves. It is far more hyped than a tragedy that killed 100 times as many people and that a death due to terrorism would need to be 100 times more tragic than a death due to an earthquake to justify this. To suggest that the grief of the family of a 9/11 victim is on a par with the combined grief of 100 others who lost relatives (in many cases several family members) is quite simply wrong. In short, as a tragedy 9/11 is completely overhyped. There are dozens of more tragic events which recieve far less media attention. Even with the terrorist aspect it is still far outweighed by other tragic events. 9/11 will define the Bush Presidency. No doubt about it. But in 10 years time who will care? How big is the impact of 9/11 in real terms. We have two regime changes, Iraq and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan the warlords now wear suits and have seen a huge rise in their power due to a 3000% increase in the opium production. Iraq has become a turmoil that will take a few years to sort out. America has taken an active role in policing the world. The regime changes are pretty insignificant. I'd rate them above the Falklands war but below the Yom Kippur war. The change in American foreign policy? A little more significant than the battle of Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down) which caused the Clinton administration to back out of committing American troops on foreign soil but far less significant than, for example, Vietnam which defined 25 years of American foreign policy. When they write the history books for this decade 9/11 will be a big factor, one of the many causes for renewed American interventionism in the world. When they write the history books for this century however it will barely be a footnote. One of the many causes for a policy shift that defined the balance of power in the Middle East for a decade and had a short term effect on American politics. | ||
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KwarK
United States41574 Posts
The same applies with 9/11. If public figures reminds everyone about 9/11 and how they think it was terrible then members of the public will agree with them and as an extension support them. If an event captures the public imagination the politicians will take it up. Bush especially has an stake here because reminding everyone of 9/11 is reminding everyone why they re-elected him. But as a general rule politicians will hype any event the public are interested in. | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
It's basically a tragedy and politics have clouded your mind. | ||
Xeofreestyler
Belgium6753 Posts
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KwarK
United States41574 Posts
On September 12 2007 02:19 Xeofreestyler wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AYujWCCHRk Completely tasteless. | ||
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CFDragon
United States304 Posts
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Xeofreestyler
Belgium6753 Posts
You cant expect people not to make jokes about it though. You've never made a joke about the holocaust/other horrible event? Making jokes doesn't mean you dont understand or empathize with the atrocities anyway | ||
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