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fezvez
France3021 Posts
I know this may seem selfish, but I would really like to have an insider view of the mod. I mean, if it's really a community project, then community governance wouldn't be a problem. I promised myself that I would get in the Galaxy Editor for the past two years but never managed to have the time for it, and I feel that the new extensions might just as well be the final thing I needed. And I'd like to start with your work | ||
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
@Pontius Pirate As soon as you mentioned 0 supply map control and I said not spider mine, I knew that Perdition Turrets were imminent. Yes it could work, but having a 2x2 turret drop out of a small Hellion would look pretty silly and make no sense and I'm not sure how things would look if they were 1x1 (I'm assuming it would look silly as well). I mean, it is canon but I'm not sure how seriously I could take a game where I walk up a ramp and 20 mini-Perdition Turrets unburrow. Hopefully just giving them an option for mid/late-game speed should alleviate some of the issue. @Doc Daneeka After some of the games in the past week, I could see how Swarm Hosts are on your mind. That said, the removal of the enduring locusts upgrade makes them a lot less silly. If you try to do massive waves to push through AoE you leave a window of vulnerability that is pretty straightforward to exploit. Otherwise staggered waves are safer and with shorter life aren't able to push as far into enemy bases, especially without creep. @fezvez Thank you for your interest in the project. I'm not sure what you mean by "community governance." When we say OneGoal "community project" we mean that many of the ideas are drawn from and revised by the community and the entire team is people who saw the idea and just hopped on board (for many of us, it is our first major SC2 project). If you have any questions about the internal works of our mod file or how to build things in the data editor, I'm available to help (though a bit rusty). With the arcade going free to play, now is a great time to try your hand at the editor. We have made our mod unlocked with the release of 2.1 and you can look up and download it from within the editor. We have taken some steps to cut out elements that are no longer relevant but some of our old designs are still in there if that interests you. | ||
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
1) In Zerg, when you upgrade the Ground Melee Attack, the Ultralisk does not seem to deal any additional attack damage. 2) In Terran, when you upgrade the Mech Attack upgrade more than once, the Warhound actually loses attack damage instead of gaining. His ground attack seems to upgrade fine but his air attack decreases from 17x2 to 2x2 after upgrading Mech Attack Upgrade twice. 3) In regards to Terran, I recall someone saying that the OneGoal map was better off if Terran Mech Attack upgrades and the Terran Air Attack upgrades were separate while the Mech and Air Defense upgrades would stay merged. Currently, the Attack upgrades are merged. Is this intended? | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
I had a look (4 hours?) at the editor and the job you did. I am pretty impressed, especially because how much of a mess the Galaxy Editor indeed is. So far, the most impressive thing I came across is the ultralisk monarch plating passive. So far, I understand that the Ultralisk has the monarch plating behavior, which launches a cascade of effects, which itself launch another behavior ("Protected by monarch plating") However, why does it protect only from splash damage? And doesn't it protect also the ultralisk from splahs damage? + Show Spoiler + <DamageResponse Chance="1" ModifyFraction="0.5"> <Kind index="Spell" value="0"/> <Kind index="Melee" value="0"/> <Kind index="Ranged" value="0"/> </DamageResponse> Is it because you only have 4 types of damage in the game? (i.e : spell, melee, ranged, splash?) I want to look at the AI after that. I don't want to promise that I'll help out, but thanks for sharing it as an extension mod! | ||
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
In Protoss, when you upgrade a Mothership Core to a Mothership, the Mothership ceases to exist and you are unable to build a Mothership Core to replace that invisible (or nonexistent) Mothership. Thanks for fixing the other bugs! | ||
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
Thank you and everyone else in the thread for feedback on bugs I do my best to fix them in a timely manner. Patches seem to mysteriously break things (Red Actor Events). Apparently Mothership speed was wrong again, so I'll be combing through most of the mod this weekend to make sure things are proper. On that note: since Void Rays are out of the game, Void Ray hallucinations have been replaced by Tempest hallucinations. @fezvez Monarch plating is indeed on the complicated end of things (nowhere near the Brood Lord attack chain or the WoL Void Ray attack chain, but still). The way it works is a permanent behavior on every Ultralisk. Every .125 seconds it does a search in a radius slightly smaller than the Ultralisk's radius for zerg ground units that don't have the frenzy behavior (only Ultralisks and Dark Templar get this behavior). It then applies a behavior to those units that lasts .25 seconds and reduces on the type splash they take by 50%. Note the original behavior on the Ultralisk doesn't actually reduce the damage, it just does a periodic search. It was only intended to reduce splash damage so units shelling the Ultralisk wouldn't melt the units it was walking over with their splash damage. Hiding an army under the Ultralisk to plow through storms/nukes/spells wasn't a goal, neither was making them resistant to direct attacks. As far as AI goes, I know next to nothing and questions should be addressed at TechSY. If you want to examine our changes, look at all the galaxy files under the Import tab (F9). | ||
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
1) Terran: a) A.I. does not upgrade Mech Vehicles Attack Upgrades and Air Attack Upgrades (as far as I know) b) Ghost Snipe ability used to do 45 dmg (15 to massive), right? I believe it's different in the game. 2) Zerg: a) Viper description says that it can attack but it doesn't have an air attack b) Roach Upgrade ability that increases its regeneration states that it also gains 20 HP but I only notice the Roach getting from 150 HP to 160 HP c) Ultralisk can be neural parasite and fungal growth (not sure if intended for it lose the ability of Frenzied?) d) Baneling automatically has 2.95 speed at the start when it should have 2.5 e) Also, I can recall when Corrupters were 3 supply. Were they changed to 4 supply for a reason? 3) Protoss: I'm just going to throw this out here for discussion mostly because I miss the Void Ray  If we assume the following: Tempest = Anti-Armor / Seige Phoenix = Anti-Light Air Oracle = Anti-Light Ground / Support Carrier = Capital / Seige(ish) Maybe the following could happen? : a) Could we then have the Void Ray back as how it used to be? The Void Ray was an area-of-denial unit which had an upgrade from the fleet beacon that would increase its range by two. The only thing that bothers me about this is that it'd be a gimmicky unit. b) Or if the change goes through in Starcraft 2 that Tempest does more damage to structures, perhaps we could change the Tempest to be a Seige unit where it would deal normal damage to all units but deal extra damage to structures. Then we could bring back the Void Ray as the unit that fills the Anti-Armor role. The only thing that bothers me about this is that it'd be like an a-move unit. But that's what I thought. Feel free to disagree  | ||
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techsy730
United States20 Posts
I made them go back to the split up weapon upgrade references (should be fixed with OneGoal 1.18, once that goes out) I probably actually should make the AI look for which upgrade "set" the terran has upon match start, so they can deal with either case gracefully and dynamically. But that is for a later version. | ||
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
TechSy is looking at the AI for upgrades along with reacting properly to time warp and ion aegis. Snipe does 45 (25 vs massive) as intended. In the campaign Viper can attack air, so we must have not caught that when patching over. The Roach issue seems to be an incorrect tooltip, our OP states that it is only +10 hp (unless we changed it and I didn't remember). I'll be looking into this, not intended. [Edit: Looks like I messed up a requirement when we added the ability for DTs to have frenzy, should be fixed now] Another campaign change that snuck through, most of our zerg testing was making sure the new roach and hydra felt right. After we reworked the corruptor we ran into some really silly battles involving large amount of corruptors (think that finals with Broodlord vs Broodlord near the end of WoL). They were just killing every air unit (except getting out-ranged by tempests) and needed to be reigned in. They are still impactful, but there is a cost to trying to spam out 20 corruptors and just control the skies. Your analysis is pretty similar to what we had concluded: the caster Void Ray was interesting, but clunky and the HotS Void Ray was too faceroll. Worth noting that the Oracle dps vs ground is much lower than HotS, but if it is attack a structure, that structure cannot attack, train, or research. The removal of the Void Ray is lamentable, but we were unable to get it to a good spot and the Stargate was too crowded. Another option would be to remove the carrier, lower the Tempest dps and increase range, and bring back the Void Ray. Unforunately, the Tempest just feels like a super-Viking in it's new role. Overall it is difficult to make 5 distinct and useful units that fly and attack, there will be some overlap and it got to the point where Void Rays just eclipsed Tempests and Carriers. | ||
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
I see. I only brought the Corrupter up because 4 food seemed like a hefty investment for a unit that could only hit air but I could see where it could be a problem if it's massed. I just wanted to bring it up because a random person I played with commented about how sad he was that Void Rays were removed. However, it is true that the Void Ray was too similar to the other air units. I guess if I had to choose between the Carrier or the Void Ray as the capital ship, I'd take the Carrier since you could at least micro with its leash. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
Another bug I noticed with Banelings...even when you enable structure attack, the Banelings continue to ignore enemy buildings. Thanks for fixing Baneling speed though! With Blizzard's new patch, Terran Ghosts automatically come out with 75 energy and there is no longer the Moebius Reactor upgrade. The Protoss Sentry's ability of Time Warp has been changed as well with Blizzard's new patch. | ||
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
That is an interesting idea that we hadn't considered before. If it doesn't have bonus vs armored it can't focus down buildings like before, what does it add over Phoenix/Oracle harass? Depending on if it has a fade time it could make battles pretty silly. One of my gripes with the WoL Void Ray is that it gets worse as you upgrade it, because it no longer has time to charge up before killing units. I believe it was Minigun (perhaps it was a different protoss) who did the test showing that 30 0-0 Void Rays beat 30 1-0 Void Rays. These are both unique mechanics, but I am just not sure whether they belong in SC2. @RapidKill The Baneling issue was from campaign weapons, a simple fix. As far as Balance Updates, we had a similar issue in 2013 where the balance updates that don't require a patch mess up our mod. This is because we are using the SwarmMulti mod to match most of the changes in HotS. Unfortunately, these patches simply overwrite our changes to SwarmMulti when you connect to Battle.net and don't show up in the editor. The 2 paths we can take going forward are to put up with these minor changes every time they put up a Balance Update until they publish an actual patch or to remove SwarmMulti from our dependencies and rewrite our mod to include all relevant changes that were in SwarmMulti (haven't looked into this one too much yet, but I am expecting it to take 10-20 hours over a week to update everything and then another week or two to catch less obvious things). The second option would probably make life easier going forward but might not be worth the effort. | ||
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
Also, I want to bring up the Corrupter for discussion again. At first, I thought it really had no cohesion with the Mutalisk unlike how the Devourer was with the Mutalisk in Brood War...but after thinking about it for a while, there is cohesion but in a different way. In Brood War, the Devourer would lower the attack speed and armor of the other air units for the Mutalisk to attack them with greater effect. In OneGoal, both units can be used as hit-and-run units where the Mutalisk would attack and retreat quickly while the Corrupter's Scourlings would discourage air from chasing. However, I keep hitting a wall that the Corrupter is 4 food. It causes me to subconsciously compare it to the Brood Lord. At the moment, though it's debatable, the Corrupter's strength against air is comparable to the Brood Lord's strength against ground. Is it OneGoal's intention to have the Corrupter be, hypothetically, the strongest anti-air in the game? My thought would be to change the Scourlings that Corrupters produce to no longer deal splash damage...similar to how Scourges were in Brood War. Perhaps, the explosion for the Scourlings could also decrease the armor of those within its radius to encourage Mutalisks to attack alongside Corrupters as its "bounce" attacks would then deal extra damage. Possible Changes: Explosive radius for armor reduction for the Scourling could be the same as its current radius when it deals damage. Speed for Scourling can remain the same (or changed accordingly to allow the opponent to retreat to avoid detonation). The timer before the Scourling is allowed to detonate can either be the same or changed accordingly. If the Scourling is killed, the armor debuff would be applied and damage would only apply to the closest unit to the Scourling only if the unit was close enough to have been attacked by the Scourling anyways. The Corrupter and Scourling stats can be changed for balance reasons. Again, these are just my thoughts to decrease the food requirement for Corruptors from 4 to 3. I like how zergy it feels in OneGoal when going ground. However, I don't feel that Zerg has that zergy air feeling to it since the only thing you can really mass in the skies is Mutalisks (and Overlords/Overseers). P.S. I love the way the Corruptor spawns Scourlings similarly to how the Brood Lord spawns Broodlings! Sorry! There's a lot of fluff! And I also apologize for giving suggestions that are very similar to what Brood War units do. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
The first is a revision to Charge. First change it so that it isn't autocast. Instead, when it is activated, the Zealot charges to a specified location at a speed of 3.25 (.5 faster than standard chargelot move speed) with a maximum time length of 3.5 seconds, the same as in vanilla SC2. Furthermore, while the ability is active for those three and a half seconds, the Zealots are given +1 armor. This makes charge an ability that is primarily used to force bio balls and hydra clumps back, without removing their ability to retreat with heavy losses. It also performs much less well against Siege Tanks, greatly reducing the tendency for chargelot-Archon compsto sweep the floor with mech compositions. Regarding the issue of feeling that Colossi are a bit boring, what if you turned the Colossus into basically a grounded capital ship? Increase the cost to something like 450/250 min/gas, increase the HP/Shields to maybe 300/250, and really emphasize its role as a late game unit. Perhaps the build time and supply should be increased as well. The attack can be changed to shoot lasers out to the sides of where the attack path is about to be, pausing for one second, and then sweeping the path and damaging the units that are crossed. This gives the opponent more of a chance to micro out of its way. Institute friendly splash damage (remember, Colossi are war machines that the Protoss have not used in millenia and are probably a little rusty in the operation of) so that you can't just send in a wall of Zealots in and in in your cozy deathball. In conjunction with the chargelot change I have proposed, this will hopefully encourage a dance of sending in Zealots to force the bio back, and then when charge wears off, covering the Zealots' retreat path with well-timed ranged fire. A skillful Protoss player will attempt to prevent the high-dps bio ball from closing in where it does overwhelming damage, whereas a skilled Terran will try to pick off Zealots until the ranged units within are exposed. Both of these goals are fairly similar to what exists in SC2 already, but can be performed in a much more sophisticated way, particularly by giving the Protoss player more micro opportunities. In relation to Void Rays, maybe the upgrades would have a different effect than +damage on their attacks. Maybe each upgrade could instead increase the speed that they charge up. | ||
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StaraCroft
Austria292 Posts
I haven't played onegaol in a year and I'm confused about some of the changes. What happened to the mini immortals with speed upgrade and the cloaking field on the oracle? Is there a changelog? | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
I have one more idea about Spider Mine spiritual successors. A drone of a similar look to a PDD, only it locks in on grounded units as a Hunter-Seeker missile would, and moves towards them at a constantly accelerating rate until it either blows up, is destroyed, manually called off, or the unit moves a certain number of squares out of its vision, at which point it stops moving and stays where it is. Admittedly, this idea is highly influenced by IRL drones, which might be in poor taste. Regarding WM, see my previous post about attack upgrades. Rather than having a late-game upgrade increase the speed of the Widow Mine's rearmament, make each attack upgrade speed it up by about 5 seconds. 0 upgrades = 40 seconds, 1 upgrade = 35 seconds, 2 upgrades = 30 seconds, 3 upgrades = 25 seconds. I have a question about how the armor system works in OG. I'm a little confused how medium armor works. How does medium armor interact with +armored and +light bonuses? | ||
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RapidKill
United States9 Posts
It seems the mini Immortals were made to be ground anti-armor and now have hardened shields by default. They also seemed to have lost their speed buff. In regards to the Oracle having the cloak mechanic, the Oracle still has it but it's now an ability called Twilight Shroud which cloaks any units in the targeted area. | ||
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L3monsta
New Zealand149 Posts
So I haven't really followed OG in quite a while now, it would be really nice if you were to release some update videos like you originally did to let everyone know what changes you had made. One thing I would like to know is, did you guys take this video into serious consideration? and did you make any changes based on it? + Show Spoiler + | ||
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