On November 04 2013 10:48 WaveofShadow wrote:
Umasi can I sheep you?
I don't even like sheeping but I fucking love your post.
Also you're not lynching me like you said you would so that's a plus.
Hell I'll even add a little of my own somethin'-somethin'.
Vanesco's post looks like typical 'scum trying to jump on the first odd thing somebody does for early game contributions n' shizz.
##Vote: Vanesco
Vanesco it was you who said you're new to TL but not new to mafia in general, right?
Also thrawn y dat vote?
I find it interesting that you start the game with a stance like this, following into posting a ton and trying to appear like the towniest town. In my eyes if looking like the most-likely-to-be-town player, this is a very counterproductive to start off. It seems to me you only realized that a little afterwards. I can't blame you for sheeping on Umasi, since I considered Vanesco's posts up to that point looking bad as well. What I don't like in this post is how you give a plus to Umasi for not lynching you like he had claimed to. How is that a good thing from a town perspective? Even if you were town, I'd see it concerning that someone is ready to drop their opinion on you that quickly. I'd jump on that as something suspcious, rather than accept it with a warm welcome "Yay you're my buddy you're not lynching me."
---> As a single post, one cannot draw many conclusions as it has both pro-town and pro-scum points. What I'm interested in is in how it differs from the later play of his.
On November 04 2013 11:11 WaveofShadow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2013 11:03 Vanesco wrote:
Yes that was me WaveofShadow (what name abbreviation do you prefer?). I haven't played with anybody here but ObviousOne was host of my only TL game (Newbie Mini Mafia 50). If you just look at like first 1-2 pages of day 1 of that then you realize that I start off pretty similar. I don't like to start of games with "oh how is everybody doing, lets have fun and make jokes guys". That contributes very little to town in my opinion and just putting something on someone will always get the conversation rolling. Overall I'm happy the game is being started (more seriously) and that suspicion is being put on people (even if it is me). We are never going to gain anything just sitting around and making jokes all day. ugghghghghghghgh I hate this conversation. It happens so damn often. First of all: don't talk about ongoing games. Even if you're dead. (I make that mistake way too often as well.) Second - I don't find joking around early game or your attempt to 'start conversation' or move shit forward alignment indicative. Waaayyyy too much WIFOM there, so I'm going to ignore it.Let's talk about something relevant, shall we? What do you think of hzflank and his attempt to make plays? Or Sylencia's response to your attack?
Why would you completely ignore it? In all honest, your second point can be put into almost any post in the game made by almost anyone. It is almost impossible to narrow down one post as alignment-indicative. Most posts are easily able to be made from the perspective of any alignment. It is the combination and continuance of several posts that form a constant line of thought which can be analyzed more easily. The more content, the more there is to go through, but the more likely it also becomes to find inconsistencies. As I think someone pointed out earlier in the game, town players can also be inconsistent, which is true. However, town players in general are not as worried of playing inconsistently. A scumteam is more reliant on having a single member with them than town. One inconsistent scum player could hurt the whole team quite badly, whereas an equally high degree of damage is seldomly caused to town because of an inconsistent town player. Scum players have in their mind every single instant. They know they are the bad guys. They know they are being hunted. They know they can't afford slips. They're subluminally under constant pressure, due to the sheer knowledge of the situation. They are bad and they can't be allowed to caught. As for a town player, it's much easier to be relaxed. Few town players have the mindset of "If I don't catch scum I've screwed the game for my team, I can't afford to make mistakes and let them down."
---> Scum is under constant pressure, scum is also more likely to be inconsistent. Especially later in the game when you may able to force them into a situation where they are forced to choose the lesser of the two evils. Reactions in those moments tell a ton.
On November 04 2013 11:12 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 11:07 ObviousOne wrote:
WoS could make that response as either side, I interpret his endorsement of Umasi purely as appreciation for that post. The tidbit about not even liking to sheep makes me lean more town than scum. Why dat? I feel like my first instinct (meta aside) if I were analyzing a post like that would be scum making early excuses for himself. Seems like an odd conclusion to draw.
This is a short but interesting post. Scum in general are not keen in pointing out their own mistakes. While that is true in most cases, especially in early-game it is extremely rarely picked upon. So it is easy for one to make themselves look better by pointing out the flaws in their own play, as they do not have a history of posts to compare a single flaw to. The longer the game goes, the likelier it is that the mistake becomes more significant and hard to point out.
On November 04 2013 12:04 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 11:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
hey WoS, I think your vote was pretty dodgy, do you have any idea why I might be thinking that? I have an idea, the question is, should I care whether you think that or not?The same can be applied to Rayn's most recent thought. Given Vanesco's latest post I'm happy with my vote where it is atm.
Is there a single reason why town should not care if they look suspicious? Even if it's possible that the accusation is made by a scum player and holds no value, you can't count on that. It's more likely that it's genuine suspicion from a town player. Why would one as town ever want to intentionally cause suspicion on himself along his comrades? There's extremely rarely a pro-town outcome of that. That ticks me off. Especially because he doesn't care to respond to a light question with suspicion aimed directly at him, but when gumshoe made a case he was all over the place.
On November 04 2013 12:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
Have you ever seen scum-me?
And thread control based on first post?
And 'giving it up' to Umasi?
Like....I think I sort of follow your thought process maybe but that's a really weird way of explaining it. Why would you think I'd have to establish control of the thread in my first post? Do any of my first posts as town accomplish this? How does sheeping Umasi remove any credibility I may or may not have?
This is a very interesting post. Sure, one cannot and "doesn't have to" establish a presence in the thread in their first post. The thing here is that at this point, WoS doesn't seem to mind that at all. It is counter-productive to play like this at start, only to follow up with an extremely control-oriented play. I'm most curious what caused this sudden change? At this point in the game, he doesn't seem to be concerned how dominant he is in the thread. Later on, it's probably the most alerting thing in his play.
Then he does have these small exchanges that seem more towny to me, but can easily be seen from a scum perspective as well. Such as:
On November 04 2013 12:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
As for 'who we are firm with,' care to elaborate? I asked you a question and you just gave me a very generic answer, without the specifics I was asking for.
This was aimed at Umasi. It could be either scum play, softly pointing out a flaw in a townies play, or it could be town play that is simply firm on having their question answered. After all, without asking questions and answering them, we'd barely have any content to find scum by.
On November 04 2013 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote:
As for hypocrisy, I don't need to try to contribute, or look like I'm contributing. I fucking DO contribute.
And he follows up with a post like this. No offense, but to my eyes his posts so far don't seem extremely contributive. Whether he actually does or not is not the most relevant point about this, but what is is the fact that he starts to show the need of being "confirmed". He wants to be acknowledged for contributing. If a townie plays well and has proper contribution, they don't need to ask for being shown the gratitude, or being acknowledged of their contribution in thread. WoS on the other hand seems to clearly be wanting this acknowledgement. I currently see it as scum trying to establish an early control of the thread, faking as a strong town player to cause many mislynches and avoid the danger of being scrutinized as much himself. (Especially in bigger games, the general opinion tends to affect the decisions of unsure players a lot. If the general consensus of the thread is that player X is town, few individuals are ready to challenge that opinion and go against it by presenting their own view on the situation.)
On November 04 2013 14:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Onegu calm down, I obviously misinterpreted him in our exchanges and for that I apologize as well. Back to the game: ##UnvoteI REALLY fucking hope this doesn't bite me in the ass but Vanesco is now exhibiting a little more of what I was waiting for. + Show Spoiler +On November 04 2013 13:44 Vanesco wrote:
I don't get where this idea of my calling out Syl for not being firm is coming from. I just didn't like what he had to say and I decided that instead of people joking around I wanted to actually start the game, so I called him out. I didn't really take much of a stance because nothing in his response made me feel like he was scummy.
I'm having a really big scum read on Umasi currently. As explained before, in his first post I think only consists of 1 real accusation which is that I do not like talking about strategy since scum can meta it. To me it seems that he wants town to discuss strategy which leads me to the two most likely conclusions.
1) He doesn't know what to do, usually means a weak town and can be tricked easily by scum, or
2) mafia that wants to know the towns plans and how to use it against them
His only other post is him making a joke at somebody who thinks he's scum and then saying that I didn't pressure Syl hard (which I explain in the paragraph above). He then talks about how I don't like to talk about strategy which I explain why above. He mistakenly calls strategy "mechanics" when they are completely different things (in my opinion). I view mechanics as the rules of the game where strategy is how to play the game. I don't know if this is just me but it seems like he wants to blame that I'm not allowing people to discuss the rules of the game when infact I just don't like when people discuss the strategy they are going to use.
Essentially Vanesco, whether or not he has played on other forums or whatever boils down to either noob scum or noob town. An experienced player would not need attempt to earnestly call people out simply to 'get the game going' without dropping a vote or taking a hard stance, whether pressure-vote or not. I redact my earlier scumread on him and (hopefully this doesn't bite me in the ass) he is now noob town. The OMGUS on Umasi, (OMGUS in my experience tends to be used by town way more often than scum) the blatant disregard for what a towny is 'supposed to do' (why call someone out for no reason whatsoever---only serves to draw attention to himself which he has certainly garnered). I would think a newbie scum would at the very least attempt to backtrack due to inherent guilt when being shown that what he has done is considered scummy here. Townread for now, but Vanesco I want to see something positive from you real soon. Scumread on Umasi notwithstanding.
The infamous "noob"-card. Labeling a player as noob-town or noob-scum is an incredibly easy and convinient excuse for ignoring them a part of the game. I don't like how quickly WoS changes his opinion on Vanesco just based on that post. Goes from a scumread to a townread. If they were scumbuddies, this is an incredibly easy way to start off for them both. WoS starts with some sheeping on a player that looks bad -> good for him. After Van posts and looks better, WoS "re-evaluates" his read and has "provided content". This makes Van looks more positive in the way WoS presents him. The noob-label also effectively lets him ignore his actions for the time being "well he could be noob as either alignment so you really never know of those, I'd rather lynch into more urgent matters at hand" -> Enabling scum to concentrate on lynching strong town players instead to start with. As was already mentioned in the thread, Van effectively uses the free out that WoS gives him. And they point it out themselves. Now why would scum do that? Well.. some secrets are best hidden right under your nose. You just can't think it would be layed conviniently in front of you.
On November 04 2013 14:58 WaveofShadow wrote:
ET, Vanesco's behaviour leads me to believe this is a case of failing to fit in right away in his first grand adventure with the big boys. I've seen this happen multiple times, (VA being a notable example) where people's playstyles clash heavily with what we're used to seeing here on TL and people inevitably get called scummy for it. Essentially if Vanesco were scum he'd be pretty damn aggressive in his first foray past his newbies and that simply doesn't seem wise to me.
Do you think Vanesco is scum for his actions or can he be town as well?
If my assumptions are true, this post makes more than a lot of sense. He's "explaining his opinion" to ET, trying to manipulate ET into seeing Vanesco's play from a town perspective. Note that he uses the "noob"-card here again. Why can't Vanesco prove his townness himself? I could see the point of explaining his own view from a town perspective, but the question at the end does it for me. It's so clearly leading the recipient into the thought process of "Hmm, what if he is actually town after all?".
As I mentioned earlier in the case, almost every single post can be seen from a town or scum perspective. If you have a player you somewhat trust telling you to look at a post from another point of view, you are more likely to change your bias from reading it from a scum perspective into reading it from a town perspective, which is exactly what this post wants.
(Note, it has been psychologically proven that especially the longer the period the time in-between of examining a case, the likelier it is for one to adapt into the newest evidence brought forth.)
On November 04 2013 15:51 WaveofShadow wrote:
Anyone is welcome to comment on Vanesco basically taking the out I gave him and running with it, because I still lean towny on him, but ughhhhhhhhh
This is what I already pointed out. How conviniently it's placed right in front of us. This post is so wishy-washy as well. "Please do pick up on this point and scrutinize him for it, I won't do it because I think he's town." ... Like what? Maybe it's time to re-consider your read then. Or if you're leaning on him being town, why point out a point for someone else to attack instead of yourself? If you really believed that Vanesco was town, then you're essentially throwing out a free bone for scum to start chewing on. What are you going to do then? This is why I believe this post is also from a scum perspective.
On November 04 2013 16:11 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 16:05 Vanesco wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2013 14:53 EchelonTee wrote:
What are you talking about? Your reasoning for not voting is that other people could sheep onto you without giving input.
The problem with that reasoning is as follows:
1.) You state that you have a "really big scum read on Umasi".
2.) If you have a big scum read on someone, it follows that you should want them lynched.
3.) If you vote them and people sheep on to you, those people are helping exact the lynch that you want.
If you have a big scum read someone, why do you have a problem with people agreeing with your read? Is your read on Umasi actually not "really big"? This doesn't make sense.
These are the points I agree with mostly. Since currently Umasi is my biggest scum read he would be my first lynch and then I would look more closely anybody who I think sheep'd in. I do not really agree on your point WoS that the first person I pressure in the game has to have my vote. I did not get a scum read from him, therefore I did not vote. So basically anyone who thinks you are scummy must automatically be scum? Was I scum until the moment I removed my vote?
More irrelevant interaction. This is how my thought process goes as I see this.
1) A question asked to make Van rethink about his stance on the bolded.
2) Intended to look like it's a guided question to make a town-read to rethink about something stupid he said, rather than genuinely worrying about thinking if WoS himself was scum.
3) Which combined with the other posts makes me think it's more of "under-your-nose" style of posting. It also creates interaction between these two players. Sometimes a great way to find scum is the lack of interaction between their teammates. This way one is not able to pick up on that.
4) Shortly it boils into me thinking that this is what they want to achieve: "Why would scum help his buddy look more towny in the thread when they could just do in the QT?" --> Exactly my point. This probably what many would think at first, why bother. Because as said before, scum being shoved right into your face at a constant rate is not likely to be recognized. It's too close.
On November 04 2013 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
Oh and Vanesco, you're getting all offended at people calling you out and nitpicking over everything you do, but people are doing it for good reason. Your play has not been very good so far. As far as you not calling people scum who vote for you---that's literally exactly what you did, and then you said after your first scum target Umasi, you'd be looking at those who 'sheeped along.' Am I supposed to take away something else from that post of yours? If so please explain.
Won't bother writing another paragraph, this is exactly what I said earlier. Hidden right in front of you. Why would they do this in thread when they could do it in the QT? -> No-one expects it, and it makes them look better in-thread.
On November 04 2013 23:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
I personally plan on being VERY careful about hzflank. He is a strong player and not to be underestimated.
"Be suspicious of the guy, he's probably scummer thinking of something wicked to keel you."
On November 04 2013 23:33 WaveofShadow wrote:
There have been very few votes actually placed so far this game, and a minute amount of suspicion on very few targets so it seems to me to be advantageous for scum to simply be satisfied with the status quo thus far and not move suspicion off of the targets who are already under question somewhat, both of whom I believe to be town presently.
Random thought/stream-of-consciousness (since I was reading hzflank's setup analysis which I liked): Would it ever be worth it to simply claim blue roles during the day? Yes we will lose someone immediately I suppose but is that an acceptable risk if it means we can track role usage (assuming no mis-elections I suppose)?
It may not be worth it I guess if we fuck up bad and elect multiple scum since they can lie about getting RBed and implicate a towny in a 2scum 1town election scenario---yeah come to think of it I think it all falls apart if we fuck up and elect scum since they can lie about checks as well, and the nature of the checks makes it a hell of a lot easier to lie (regarding something like Blaspheme, for example).
Then why isn't he doing anything about it? I hardly see him presenting better options. With his "super-town-presence", I'd expect him to do exactly that. Try and convince town with his control to lynch who he thinks is scum. But alas, no he won't. Also the second bolded message, I just can't see this thought even popping into the mind of a townie. Like really?
On November 04 2013 23:45 WaveofShadow wrote:Sweet, we're getting the non-lurk gumshoe this game. Alrighty let's see: Show nested quote +It would be fine if he was just absolving Vanesco, what bugs me is that hesitance, or rather how it sounds like Wos wouldn't really be suprised if Vanesco was scum. It reads more to me as posturing rather than reluctance. He placed a vote early in hopes of building some momentum, and when that mometum dropped he got off the train but positioned himself so that if it ever got rolling again, he could hop right back on under the basis that he suspected Vanesco all along. Which is a safe bet when you take into account Vanesco's recklessness (which may yet get him lynched if no better targets present themselves). Also Wos's shambly defence does Vanesco no favours, because it requires us to assume that Vanesco is terrible and should be disregarded if hes town. Sometimes it's enough to just neuter a townie, because as we all know, useless can be just as bad as scummy. I'm actually surprised you were the only one to mention this so far, even Vanesco himself didn't bother. It has nothing to do with the perceived loss of momentum. I could very easily have kept my vote on him all day if I still believed him to be scummy, but as you can see I wasn't 100% sure of him being scum earlier on; I even mentioned 'nooby or scum' in one of my first few posts about him. It wasn't a bait to get him going, but I wanted him to post more to see his reaction to the pressure; that is whether he reacted in a towny or scummy way (both nooby imo). I got my answer and unvoted accordingly. Call it wishy-washy if you will but I have provided reasoning for everything I have done all day and been completely transparent with my reads and questioning. As far as the 'bite me in the ass' comments, I can't talk about one of those, but I've been systematically wrong on newbie reads a lot, so it is something I am particularly paranoid about. I was wrong about Koshi in the first game I was exposed to him as scum, and I was also wrong about Chairman Ray in a recent game of his. It's not going to stop me from performing analysis but I worry a lot because I know my analysis can be wrong, hence me opening it up for others to comment on it and pick apart, like you are right now. Other thoughts: If my goal was to neuter Vanesco, why did he basically take the entire reasoning for the 'out' I gave him and use it? You'd think if he was a fiercely strong and independent player like you are surmising, that he'd try and fight that notion. Also gumshoe, I hate to drop this card but do you honestly think at this point that the most active and engaging person in the thread is scum?
Check that gumshoe sentence. Right on. RIGHT ON. Check the amount of noob-card being used to explain his actions with Van. The one bolded after is funny, because that is exactly what he has done. All the possible scumstuff right in front of our eyes. Why hide it if you don't need to? Check the last sentence. He's worried that his analysis might be wrong and something that others can pick apart. BINGO. As a townie, you're not worried about presenting your opinion. If you are proven wrong, it's only a good thing that you shared your read with the thread, made everyone re-think about the issue and everything related to it. And if you end up agreeing that you were wrong, how is it a bad thing? Sure, you used some time on trying to prove a townie was scum, and you don't look like the most town player, but it gives you a chance to move on and make better plays. If you never put your opinion out, how could you ever convince anyone on the time you may have a correct read? You can never be sure in mafia. That is why we constantly post our opinions and analysis. To get feedback from other townies to find the scum together. And in the end, he tries to present himself as the one who provides the most content. Trying to make himself look much better than he actually does.
On November 04 2013 23:56 WaveofShadow wrote:
Like...I find it pretty ridiculous at this point that anyone could suspect me but that's just self-bias and ego talking right now I suppose. Logically I know I shouldn't be absolved of suspicion unless proven it should be so but I feel pretty damn good about my performance so far, so I just find it weird that I am anyone's #1 scumread considering I have double/triple the filter and content of most people in this game.
You couldn't find anyone better gumshoe?
More self-inflation. Funny is how here his best reasoning for not being a #1 scumread is the bolded, yet later on he tries to argue that it's not just the amount he posts, but the "quality" he posts. And yet he has earlier referenced for the sheer quantity being one of the main points why he is town.
On November 05 2013 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:
Onegu - opportunistic as fuck. You're all over me and liking what I do and now that gumshoe posts some walls you turn on me like a rabid dog. Don't make me put you down. Come to think of it, 'rabid dog' is a good example for you turning on hzflank too. You're rubbin' me all sorts of 'the wrong way' all of a sudden.
I'm not surprised no one has called me out, I was surprised no one called me out SPECIFICALLY about the point regarding the 'bite-me-in-the-ass/wishy-washiness' because it's a really easy 'case' to make as town or scum and people do that shit all the time to contribute. Requires very little effort. And please, activity is certainly not my only defense; why is that the only thing you felt was relevant enough to comment on?
Let's hear you come up with something this game that someone else hasn't done first, then we can talk, k boyo?
Gumshoe I will address your recent stuff a little later when I have more time; i like discussing with you so it would be nice to get you off of my case so we can go somewhere productive.
Trashtalks Onegu. Yeah, I can agree that his jumping along with the case was indeed very opportunistic. But I love the way he calls him out for doing something that someone else hasn't done. What original content has WoS provided then? If activity is certainly not his only defense, why doesn't he provide an example of what else there is then? The last post is even more opportunistic than Onegu ever could have been which is fun. "I really want to address your case, but I'd love if you just forgot it and we could be townbuddies, so I don't have to waste time on that and possibly make a mistake confirming me as scum. I'm saying this because you look too towny to be accused, so I'll try to buddy you instead."
On November 05 2013 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:
lol I wish I rolled scum. Or even 3P (even though this game doesn't have I think).
I'm sick of VT.
Sn0 we can have it out now if you'd like. I'm bored and I'm here, though no ability to dive atm.
Also do you have anything more concrete to say about onegu besides weak suspicion? Because I could theoretically be on board for an Onegu lynch, but I want to do some more looky looky before I'm sure.
... I guess this is the way he "provides content". -> "I guess I could lynch Onegu but I'm not really sure" + fluff talk about oh damn I am so town I wish I was scum sometimes.
On November 05 2013 02:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
Gumshoe's entrance is solid. I mean, he's wrong, but it's at least everything you want to see from a townie.
This just looks like more posting to try and make gumshoe trust him.
On November 05 2013 02:59 WaveofShadow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2013 02:39 Vanesco wrote:I don't like how WoS has been only on my case from basically the start of the game and his inconsistencies so far. He even points out to me not to talk about any games still going on but when Echelon does so here in direct response to WoS, he doesn't even mention it. These inconsistencies pop up many times in his play. He keeps on talking about the out I took from him when I even address that it was from Echelon and I disagree with him, yet he persist that it is because of his out. WoS says that "activity is not [his] only defense", however when you are confused why people would put suspicion on you you just say that you think your performance is decent and that you have a large filter. If somebody doesn't agree with your performance (which is why you might be on their scum list) then the only defense that's left is your filter. Overall I am leaning slightly scummy. I don't really like your reasoning sno_man on the lynch on Onegu. Especially as a Day 1 lynch I think it would not be a wise move just lynching somebody because you have a hard time reading them. Show nested quote +On November 04 2013 12:04 thrawn2112 wrote:This vanesco thing, I could hardly be less interested in any of the arguments against him. I AM interested in WoS's post and want him to get back to me before the magic wears off. This is the only thing thrawn has posted that seems relevant so far. It seems like he's not interested in any arguments on me and just goes straight at WoS for his post on me. It seems more like a deflection off of me and onto WoS. Maybe there was something more he wanted to say about WoS but he doesn't really have any useful information apart from the part i quoted above. Yes it was his special day but I do not like what he has contributed in the game so far. My two strongest town reads in the game so far is Echelon and Sylencia. Echelon has made posts that make sense to me and his response to OO saying that Echelon was going "bat-shit" seems very level headed. I was comfortable with Sylencia's first response to my first post and he has stuck true to everything that he has said from the start of the game. My only defense is certainly not my filter as I have explained before (see what I wrote to gumshoe and will continue to do so after this). I am perfectly happy with my content as well as the size of my filter as I personally believe (despite perceived inconsistencies that people are real happy to bring up) that I have once again been completely transparent with my reads, been question and pushing when I feel something is off, and responded to pressure accordingly. There's also something else that you and gumshoe neglect to mention which I will show in an upcoming post responding to his long posts: inconsistencies do not a scum make. You have to be able to explain why any inconsistencies that may or may not be present are likely to come from scum. Not only do I not believe I was inconsistent anywhere, I certainly do not believe you can show how I am scummy based on those inconsistencies. For example you bring up ET's response to me which I never brought up again. Why is that indicative of scum OR inconsistent? I asked him a question, he answered it, I was satisfied.
Check the bussing going on. Who'd think these two are scumbuddies? As for the point of inconsistency, check what I wrote earlier in my case. It's not a certain scumtell, but it's much more likely to come from scum. And this combined with WoS's posting history ... yeah. Also he again brings up how his only defense is not his filter. Well... I still haven't found any other defense. I guess he's hoping others are too lazy to look?
On November 05 2013 03:15 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 00:15 gumshoe wrote:On November 04 2013 23:56 WaveofShadow wrote:
Like...I find it pretty ridiculous at this point that anyone could suspect me but that's just self-bias and ego talking right now I suppose. Logically I know I shouldn't be absolved of suspicion unless proven it should be so but I feel pretty damn good about my performance so far, so I just find it weird that I am anyone's #1 scumread considering I have double/triple the filter and content of most people in this game.
You couldn't find anyone better gumshoe? Why do I have to assume scum is playing bad? In fact this pond has been so shallow insofar, it's not really an accomplishment being the biggest fish. Speaking of accomplishments, I know the game hasnt gone on long enough but so far the biggest thing I've seen out of you is your waffling on Vanesco, and I've addresed that. Everything else you've said has been inconclusive, example I need to have a close look at hzflank honestly---I need to go look back at how he played his newbies; specifically the scum game I coached. Reading his filter I am not largely satisfied with his defense of the Umasi suspicion and he hasn't done much else, though I can understand being discouraged by all the of unwarranted attacks.
(At least unwarranted in his view. On that note I really don't get your reaction to my perceived slight by hzflank, Onegu. I can definitely take care of myself and you really kinda flew off the handle. Was really bewildering o.O)
There have been very few votes actually placed so far this game, and a minute amount of suspicion on very few targets so it seems to me to be advantageous for scum to simply be satisfied with the status quo thus far and not move suspicion off of the targets who are already under question somewhat, both of whom I believe to be town presently.
Random thought/stream-of-consciousness (since I was reading hzflank's setup analysis which I liked): Would it ever be worth it to simply claim blue roles during the day? Yes we will lose someone immediately I suppose but is that an acceptable risk if it means we can track role usage (assuming no mis-elections I suppose)?
It may not be worth it I guess if we fuck up bad and elect multiple scum since they can lie about getting RBed and implicate a towny in a 2scum 1town election scenario---yeah come to think of it I think it all falls apart if we fuck up and elect scum since they can lie about checks as well, and the nature of the checks makes it a hell of a lot easier to lie (regarding something like Blaspheme, for example). Your all over the place in this particular post, saying you find hz suspicious and then talking about how you liked his setup analysis play later on, also you just sort of acknowledging the stagnation of this thread and let it rest at that... Nothing in here is really of any use, theres no hard cases or defences, it just feels like your pointing us in a direction you yourself havent even bothered to fully take yet. In general it feels like your spreading suspicion around hoping some one picks up on something. Also this point If my goal was to neuter Vanesco, why did he basically take the entire reasoning for the 'out' I gave him and use it? You'd think if he was a fiercely strong and independent player like you are surmising, that he'd try and fight that notion. My theory is that hes town and your scum, his actions and responses to yours do not absolve you in any way. Stubborn and independent does not equal attack someone who defends you... Your play just feels to tip toey for my liking, yes your active but in a cautious way and I dont consider town WOs the most careful of players. Also it's funny you find yourself transparent... I dont get that vibe at all, if you are town your baiting scum hard and while that may be smart and pro town it's certainly not honest, so I dont know where your getting this idea of yourself. Btw wheres the voting thread. Alright inconclusivity---I haven't been able to do detailed filter diving/looking into past games until now. What I said about hzflank isn't inconsistent at all. Just because I like one post of his doesn't mean I like his filter on the whole which contains mostly nothing. That's really nitpicky from you gumshoe and I expect better. I fully intend to follow my train of though regarding hzflank once I can dive into his past games, which is exactly what I said in the first bolded section of my post. Not sure why you feel there is a problem there. Would you prefer if I just say nothing to the thread until I can write an essay at a time? Because sadly I'm pretty sure it's evident to you that is not how I play---I prefer stream-of-consciousness and will post whenever and whatever I feel. And on that note---do you REALLY think my posting is 'tip-toeing?' Why the fuck would I as scum post every single thought that goes through my head for the town to read and obsess over like people have been, draw as much attention to myself as possible, and keep positive discussion going? That makes absolutely no sense, and again gumshoe I would figure you'd pick up on that. This kind of behaviour makes zero sense from a mafia standpoint (unless you wanted to make the argument that I'm attempting to spam up the thread with useless shit, about which I'd be pretty pissed if you called all of my posting useless). The fact that you wouldn't call me honest either is frustrating to me, because even in my one fucking scumgame I'm almost completely honest. Not to mention you have no way of proving that at all so it just amounts to an attack on my character. If there is one thing that can be said about my TL Mafia play, I have NEVER lied as town, and very rarely as even 3P or mafia.
This is something I don't get. Why does diving into past games tell you so much about the current game. It doesn't. Some players MAY have similarities in their playstyle, but you just can't metagame experienced players like that. WoS even pointed out himself that hzflank is one he will be very careful with, so why does he think that he can out-meta him then? Just tell us your opinion in his play in this game. I don't care what he did in some earlier game in whatever point of history.
He also says his preferred posting-style is stream-of-conciousness. All these big posts he makes makes me think the exact opposite. He's clearly putting some further thought into what he posts, rather than just doing it on a whim. It's funny how he deflects the actual point I've been making all case on him. "Why would someone be this straightforward as scum?" Exactly because of that. Even he assumes it's something people don't consider a possibility. Thus, all over your face right in front of you, hoping you won't get it. No need to lie about his play when he can be honestly doing all the scumstuff in front of you for the most extent.
On November 05 2013 03:15 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 00:39 gumshoe wrote:Also hate to spree post... But WOS what do you mean he took your out... Vanesca has had four posts since your defence of him and none of them adress you or your case. They are all concerning his stance on Umasi, your post had nothing to do with that, he ramped up his offence because everyone started poking him on it. This is the exact response of a head strong player, I fail to see your argument... The bigger question is why are you still so dead set on him? Weve established hes new, probally town, what more does pressing him acomplish other than the stifling of discussion? Do you still consider him a viable lynch? Furthermore I'm not a fan of this stuff right here. I'm actually surprised you were the only one to mention this so far, even Vanesco himself didn't bother. It has nothing to do with the perceived loss of momentum. I could very easily have kept my vote on him all day if I still believed him to be scummy, but as you can see I wasn't 100% sure of him being scum earlier on It reads as if you've already thought of all the holes in your play, you argue thats because noobies make for your most difficult reads but you've transfered that hesitance into play that coincidentally matches that of a cautious scum player anticipating every blow that comes their way. This combined with your many wishy washy posts and your aproach to vanesco is more than enough reason for me to suspect you. Do you actually plan on picking apart everything I do and say? As far as the 'out' I gave Vanesco by means of my analysis of him and my unvoting---in my mind what ET posted and what I did amounts to the same thing. Show nested quote +I redact my earlier scumread on him and (hopefully this doesn't bite me in the ass) he is now noob town.
The OMGUS on Umasi, (OMGUS in my experience tends to be used by town way more often than scum) the blatant disregard for what a towny is 'supposed to do' (why call someone out for no reason whatsoever---only serves to draw attention to himself which he has certainly garnered). I would think a newbie scum would at the very least attempt to backtrack due to inherent guilt when being shown that what he has done is considered scummy here. How is this not related to his aggressive stance on Umasi? Him ramping up his offense in response is exactly what I stated here I don't think a noobie scum would do. How is that unrelated exactly? So in my mind I suppose Vanesco took my out but in his he took ET's, but they are the basically the same thing and the beginning of my analysis to Vanesco was posted even before ET's questions, so we came up with them at similar points in time while thinking similar things---this gives me an incidental townread on ET btw. As for the quote you mentioned---basically the way you set it up I have no way to not look scummy. You don't see anything towny in that whatsoever. If I leave my vote on him I look scummy because Vanesco is town. If I take it off I was making excuses for myself and setting it up. The fact that you have shown to refuse to see the possibility of ANYTHING towny in my play by the way you have attempted to tear apart everything I say and do leaves me troubled because I know you can be a strong force for town, but you're just not doing town a great service by acting this way. At this point I'm finished responding to cases by you against me because I don't feel like there will be anything left to say---you'll either take what I have to say and weigh it and decide whether it makes sense from either point of view and come to the right decision, or you will continue to nitpick and further misrepresent what I am doing and saying to fit your read. Either way I don't feel like there is anything to gain by further discussing me. Onto the subject of hzflank who I will be looking at shortly---Gumshoe what are YOUR thoughts on him? Hell what are your thoughts on anyone aside from me?
Note, he points out that Van has to be a noobie. And it's not something a noobie scum would do. Why is he so sure that he is an inexperienced player, and believe himself to be so much superior? The way he tries to defend the quote gumshoe mentioned is funny. It's like he's acknowledged it's scummy and is extremely hard to look at from a town perspective. I doubt that gumshoe is reading everything with red glasses on with purpose, especially due to his later adding of not blaming WoS being his main point of the case. This is a great point in hindsight as WoS is arguing for gumshoe to be tunneling. Duh, if you think someone is scum, of course you try to rip them apart. There's nothing wrong as long as you provide good reasons for why you think so. Once you start bashing at someone with no reasoning to back it up, that's when things go wrong and should be looked into. gumshoe however provides reasoning during his whole case.
And fittingly, WoS decides it's best to ignore cases made on him since they're clearly all made because of "bias", and are "misrepresented" on purpose. I'll be interested in seeing how he reacts to this. Note how he at the end again, tries to get gumshoe looking into someone else than himself.
On November 05 2013 03:28 WaveofShadow wrote:
Rayn, Where you at? Don't like the pokey-pokey. I want your help to lynch some scum. I thought we were supposed to be working together to achieve a greater goal here?
Remember when he said he was providing content and was going to give more of it? Yeah... by asking others to do it, appareantly.
On November 05 2013 03:36 WaveofShadow wrote:
Ok so my own accounts of my own filter are subjective. That's a real eye-opener, thanks for pointing that out!
Does it make me scum?
No desire to read anything else of what I've written?
Or talk about anything else?
Jeez I can barely contain myself with all of this original, discussion-promoting and thought provoking content!
Sure, Onegu's reasoning hasn't been good. I completely agree. I however wouldn't reply in a manner of just calling him down as much of possible and ignoring any points he may have tried to point out. Guess why? Trying to make a townie look bad intentionally is what it looks like to me.
On November 05 2013 03:52 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 03:50 Sn0_Man wrote:If I could substantiate them there'd be substantiations in thread yo. Besides not so many reads just stuff. You weren't (aren't? unsure) playing how I'm used to but I can dismiss that if I need to. Was about the best I had. My shots at onegu are strictly based on teh player i have no idea his current alignment. Massive walls of text full of dumb videos is either rayn territory or scum usually so I'm flaming gumshoe. MEANWHILE I have no actual idea who is scum so I'm making sure people don't decide to lurker lynch me  See so that's where you'd say 'Hmm...as a town member who would like to win this game, maybe I should try to help my team figure out who the scummers are?'Which team doesn't care about who is scum and who isn't, Sn0? I forget. Shitposting for an entire day may not be lurking, but it certainly won't take you off the lynch radar in my eyes. Out for now, be back later this evening.
Oh yes WoS. As a town member, would you finally help your team to figure out the scummers? I don't see that.
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