EPTFirst post coming soon.
"##" Mafia - Page 128
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Pandain
United States12979 Posts
First post coming soon. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12979 Posts
Now what are the characteristics we can identify for a town play? Town's greatly vary in their motivations, but here are the very basics
That's really it. My first reasoning as to why SnB begins with a look at his first post, a very interesting one. On October 17 2013 23:10 strongandbig wrote: /in Need mah mafia fix Whichever team I'm on beware, I've got a five- or six-game losing streak and it shows no sign of letting up! I hope I'm on a team with sentinel so I can get my revenge for his shameless mod-fuckery! Notice how he is currently on a huge losing streak. We can assume some things from this. One that he is going to try, and two he is probably going to be upset if he starts playing poor or is upset with himself. This'll come into play later, but keep this is mind as what he wants out of this game and what you think he wants out of this game. On October 28 2013 23:56 strongandbig wrote: @marv the key point on pandain isn't that his play doesn't make sense, it's that he voted rayne for reasons which were disproven (the #kill thing) but then when that was found out, pandain made up very tenuous reasons to justify his suspicion staying on rayn rather than unvote, look for other reads, reconsider, etc. (saying that attacking bad reasoning is scummy, attackign rayn for "buddying" you when he really doesn't appear to be - bot of which are tenuous reasons in the first place and are doubly so when you're talking about rayn who yells at everyone for what he sees as bad reasoning and who loves to short-term buddy people to do his in-thread buddy cop thing). The thing I don't like about this is that he's making an assumptions-based argument. This means that he's assuming I responded a way I did (making up tenuous reasons) when there is no way to prove that was my intention. I think it's harder for town to make these arguments as they know the state of uncertainty town is in, but scum have to be trying to find scum so they focus on these assumption based arguments because they're the only ones they really have. On October 29 2013 00:19 strongandbig wrote: well, i guess i just dont agree. i dont see that as bad, i see it as scummy. the difference is "bad/weird" are things that are bad or dont make sense for town but dont for scum either. if something is bad or doesn't make sense for town but there's a clear link between it and a scum mindset or scum motivation then it's not bad/weird its scummy. obviously he could be mafia or town based on his play so far. but oat's case is the best one i saw when i was reading through the thread, and i think by reducing it to "bad/weird play" you're well understating it. Contradiction between first two paragraphs and last one. Justifies(hopefully genuinely) that he think's I'm scum; it's an early push he gave and this is his third post on the subject. He then leaves a path out - "Obviously [Note: What? As an aside I think people who say obviously are scum ] he could be mafia or town based on his play so far, but Oats case [ Note: Defines it as Oats case and not something he believes in ] is the best one". On October 30 2013 00:40 strongandbig wrote: weird question. i think i was scum with oats in a game where he kept asking people to read him. am i remembering correctly? does he do this as town as well? idk, but suspicious. still leaning town on him though also ##Twerk you should've said something. ##Yolo Promethelax you should've said something but w/e catching up with the thread atm, on page 50, rather lynch clarity than oohchild atm, still kind of think pandain is scum but i'll filter him once i catch up, could oohchild be OO? doesn't matter but would be punny. This is the third time that he did the ##Yolo Promethelax. So he's had three times to think about it. Before he had said in this post that he wouldn't power up Marv because he can't trust a town read on him. But he's that confident in Prom? I mean, he could do this as town but it's still weird and disconcerting to me. I think the fact he just twerked Marv is a town point for him because mafia wouldn't want to directly contradict themselves earlier, however, but the Prom thing is weird. On October 30 2013 00:54 strongandbig wrote: should i update koshi? we've collectively powered up everyone else who claimed an in-game power and my faith in TL towns is low enough that I think town probably gets a better deal from powering up everyone than from powering up everyone but one person. We've seen in previous and later posts that SnB is far more then okay to deliver his own opinions on matters. However, for this matter, he defers to town. Why? For town SnB, it doesn't really make sense. He should be able to share an opinion, and then people can reflect. For scum SnB it makes perfect sense, whether or not Koshi is scum(though it's clearer if he is), it may be suspicious for SnB to power up everyone. Not that I would think it really is, but he might. | ||
|
OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
| ||
|
OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
| ||
|
Pandain
United States12979 Posts
On October 30 2013 01:43 strongandbig wrote: here's the thing i notice about wos's filter. there's a lot of talking about other people talking about himself. + Show Spoiler + On October 28 2013 14:01 WaveofShadow wrote: Just popped in to say ##Paranoia I don't like your play this game either Prom. Your first post yelling at everybody not to be powering everybody up....I completely agree with. I just wouldn't have expected it to come from you. You take it a step further though---you say not only is powering other people up dumb, but you say it's policy lynchable. Have you pursued this course of action in your questioning of all of the people who have done so thus far? And THEN, not 4 posts later, you explain to everybody how to power you up. This reminds me of the very first ever game I played with you Prom, LX, in which you created some horseshit RNG talk early 'just to get discussion started' and you were promptly lynched for it---and flipped red. So Prome, your reads list at the start of the game. All I remember is you saying you'd lynch me based on my entry to the thread. I don't see you pursuing your policy lynches, your apparent scumreads or your 'discussion.' Funny part is' you never actually call me scum, you just say you'd lynch me based on me entering the thread and leaving, and even THEN you don't pursue it, and have not mentioned me even once since then. Your activity is pretty fantastic and all, and I get that you think Pandain tryharding is also pretty fantastic, but that don't mean shit imo. It's funny though, you say you'd rather base your read of Pandain off of what you get from him this game only and ignore his past meta, but you're ok to base your weak early read of me on meta even though you haven't played a game with me in ages? You are incredibly inconsistent just from your first few posts and I don't like it. I don't like it one bit sir. Care to discuss? ##Vote: Promethelax On October 28 2013 14:24 WaveofShadow wrote: And just like Palmar in Thug Life I will point out: you are basing a meta read of me on something that is months old and you are missing out on half my mafia career with that read. That seems like a terrible meta read Prome. Are you terrible? Palmar wasn't terrible when I called him out for that. He was scum. On October 28 2013 14:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Do you think as scum I would be likely to attack a town Prom as my primary mislynch target? Prom is there a reason you don't feel like talking to me and instead feel the need to graze over my questions with Oats instead? Am I bothering you? On October 28 2013 22:57 WaveofShadow wrote: Your case to me seems based on basically nothing. Oats clearly posted his thing directly after my post not as a reply to it, and as far as correcting what he viewed as inconsistencies, that could theoretically be seen as towny since poking holes in a case on your scumread will either dismantle it or make it stronger---becoming something you can use. I don't personally believe it is alignment indicative but whatever. I didn't get a scumvibe from Oats for not specifically taking the points I used and running with them because he was working on his own stuff and looked like he was actually trying to figure out what was useful or not from my case. On October 28 2013 23:10 WaveofShadow wrote: So despite me harping on you for your meta read of me, you just realized this? Marv I actually had a townread on someone else this game for something very similar but that was very late last night and I can't remember who it was exactly. Not the arrogance but the quizzing and confidence that people 'see him as town and here's why.' I'll try to look back and figure out where it was I came up with that. Essentially your read to me makes sense, and I'm glad it is for reasons that didn't occur to me/are not related to my case since that gives me more to think about. I'm always a little bit wary of giving experienced players townreads based on mafia not being so upfront and arrogant though because there are definitely people very capable of that kind of play (ie Pandain). I guess in Prome's case it's mroe the mindset behind that type of play and his posting? I'll have a closer look. On October 28 2013 08:28 WaveofShadow wrote: I find the fact that Pandain even gets a slight scumread from my opening post hilarious. He's played games with me and should know almost every single opening post of mine is along the lines of what I rolled and I often whine about something, often what I rolled.  To me Pandain it looks more like YOU are the one who is trying to contribute something to look good---I don't find anything you picked out regarding me OR Rayn scum-indicative in any way, and as such I find your posting incredibly weak thus far. Oh and I suppose I should have mentioned this before the game started but considering my not-so-great play and the embarrassing length of my filter in Thug, I plan on keeping things way more concise than usual. I do not plan to be in the top few posters lengthwise this game. Make of that what you will. Anyway I'm tempted to fuck off until whatever Sentinel did resolves but I suppose that wouldn't be very helpful. Guess we'll see. generally i don't like this, not one bit. it's like, scum are much more likely to do that kind of thing than town, because they care much more about deflecting small amounts of suspicion from them. note that none of these early things that wos is responding to amount to any serious pressure, any serious chance of him getting lynched, but he still attacks the people who attack him. Prome, as for your case - (1) his soft claim - well, i guess it's getting towards 'later in the day' when he said he would use his post. but if we're talking about claims i think sent's is way worse than his. (2) not being here post - meh. i've done that as town, no reason why someone else cant. (3) 9 minutes. a little suspicious? but i could easily see him having gotten three or four of your filters from the database, scrolled through looking for big cases, and coming up empty in that amount of time. also if he actually knew it was bs, why say that as scum? (4) the 3p thing. yeah it's weird. is it scummy? Only if scum know there's a third party in the game that town doesn't know about, and we have no evidence that that's the case. i actually like rayn's case a lot better than yours, it's similar to the argument i made above about wave being self-focused, plus rayn's pretty right that town wave just has more backbone than in this game. overall i think wave is probably a good lynch choice today but i don't really agree with your case's reasoning for that. I think this is a very weak post. The analysis of WoS is that "he defended himself too much against early pressure" and he concludes with "Wave is probably a good lynch choice today". I don't think the case is good, it seems like an attempt to put suspicion on a townie while still appearing contributive and he's giving generic case reasons which can point to someone being scum. AKA it's a common argument to be used for WoS and therefore really SnB is safe in making this post. But the post is weak. On October 30 2013 01:56 strongandbig wrote: yeah i got you confused with kushmasta, who i was scum with in sicilian. i filtered pandain because i said i would filter him when i posted while catching up to the thread. also how is it odd that i went back and filtered the guy who was previously my top scum read. how is that odd. love the connection case with no flips btw. then your last point lol seriously though do you disagree with me? regardless of clarity's alignment i don't want him alive at lylo unless he starts playing differently. Really weird justifications for filtering me. He's filtering me because he said he would do it? That's the reasoning? And then he says "yo i was suspicious of him of course I would filter him." Which is what I think he would just say outright, and not use it as an addendum. The post just seems weird and more scum phrased then town phrased. Note: At this point I am noticing he is delivering several big posts. See, here:this, this,this. The posts are long but they have all been weak. I'm also noting that in TL NOIR, he posted different. And even though he was a replacement, he replaced day one after Darthpunk went crazy. He had math homework to do, but still. His play feels more like mafia Thug Life in his posts layout. Kush just said SnB doesn't post like he does with analysis as scum, but that's directly wrong as shown in Town Noir and Scum Thug Life . If he is town after this I'll have to up my opinion of him, not that he's bad but he seems more confident and delivery-based as scum then he does as town, which makes sense since scum have the information. On October 30 2013 05:41 strongandbig wrote: im not defending you the attitude that if i agree with someone's conclusions i have to agree with all of their logic is one of the many silly tropes in mafia also i guess i didnt vote yet ##vote: waveofshadow Finally votes WoS, now confirmed town. Others voted him too but this doesn't help him, especially when he had poor reasoning. I'm also interested why despite him repeatedly saying before that clarity should die or be lynched if he plays like this , he instead chose to vote WoS. Like Clarity was way up for the lynch. On October 30 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: which of these things are not also things a townie without much time would do? i guess the thread atmosphere thing, but how am i hurting thread atmosphere? dude you were on my team, you KNOW that wasn't a genuine effort because I knew palmar was scum because he was ON A TEAM WITH THE TWO OF US also did even that case didn't involve any actual research into palmar's past games also i forgot that sentinel claimed he doesn't know what his power does. but why is saying that scum motivated. last thing, why would i have attempted to change the lynch when i like it Way super defensive. Also it seems like he has thought plenty of reasons why he's not scum in the form of how a scum would response. As scum, remember you're trying not to get lynched. So you always think of reasons why you're not scum instead of why you're town . SnB's reasons are that he's not scum, instead of that he's town. Townies defend themselves based on their actions, scum defend themselves based on that they're actions weren't scummy. I will note that SnB later posted this: On October 30 2013 05:56 strongandbig wrote: yeah if people are telling the truths about their powers then clarity gets lynched i think I forget where this came about, what was the reasoning for clarity having to be scum based on powers. It was that town couldn't have all three powers, right? No? Like WoS/Me/Clarity. But I thought he was suspicious of WoS? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
Someone else can do Seuss. There are other nukes right, Prome? | ||
|
Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
I forget where this came about, what was the reasoning for clarity having to be scum based on powers. It was that town couldn't have all three powers, right? No? Like WoS/Me/Clarity. But I thought he was suspicious of WoS? WoS/Pandain/Seuss have altering vote powers. SnB meant that with 2 people giving marv an extra vote and you removing his vote that Clarity was lynched. Just saying this to clarify. I have read your case but I don't know yet if I find it convincing enough for myself. But I am tired and will think harder about it tomorrow. | ||
|
OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
I want the explanation for why WoS had a scumread on me and analysis on why i would hit him for it. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:47 OOHCHILD wrote: its not hard to read but can you do a tldr? post by post analysis are so bad and don't serve the purpose.. | ||
|
OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: post by post analysis are so bad and don't serve the purpose.. Not true? but pandain i actually read your entire case for real and it didn't convince me. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12979 Posts
scum-esque style of posting. On October 30 2013 06:15 strongandbig wrote: why dont we just like nuke everyone except marv? Another "how about this guys", makes sense from mafia perspective instead of giving definitive opinion as town. On October 30 2013 09:00 strongandbig wrote: It's like a shitload of lynches without scum getting to nk in between. It's super pro town. No Contradiction with his nuke Notice how SnB was supporting town discussion and his opinion on who to nuke + Show Spoiler + On October 30 2013 08:47 strongandbig wrote: Currently considering nuking sent cause I'm not sure I believe his story about his power and I don't like the contradiction with how he acted towards koshi's asking for powerups; rayn because of the Marv power thing and also for the lulz; and koshi cause of the whole "x number of people with powers that need to be charged up" thing and also cause I don't trust him (after he won that one game as SK I feel like his ability to look town as scum far outweighs his ability to find scum as town). Actually we should probably nuke both koshi and sent to resolve that for good. Comments? On October 30 2013 06:15 strongandbig wrote: why dont we just like nuke everyone except marv? On October 30 2013 08:57 strongandbig wrote: Okay wait I realized the problem with nuking almost everyone. If we miss one scum then the scum team can just nk everyone we don't nuke who is town, we have to leave at least enough people alive to have a lynch after nukes plus NKs. I think we should leave at least five people unnuked. On October 30 2013 10:45 strongandbig wrote: I will nuke someone in half an hour. Currently on the list: VA for pigheadedness Sentinel for reasons mentioned above Rayn for teh lulz Then he does this: On October 30 2013 11:37 strongandbig wrote: Okay ##Nuke HotCottonCandy Oh wait I spelled it wrong Which contradicts what he was talking about before. Town discussion about nuking since SnB wanted to treat all nukes as real. It contradicts who he wanted to lynch about. He nuked someone without any discussion and that, while it does draw suspicion to him(town), is extremely anti-town. I just cannot see a town SnB blindly nuking HCC who never had suspicion on him before. On October 31 2013 02:26 strongandbig wrote: 1. Like I said, once I decided I didn't want to kill pandain, I decided that you were a good choice to lynch and better than the other options people were voting for (if there were any, I don't remember). I'm pretty sure I posted something about that where i said i disagreed with promethelax's case but i still thought you were scum. and my filter is pretty short, you must've read that right? 2. "Trying to find a way to justify" vs "explaining my reasons for". If I was scum and wanted to yolo lynch someone, I would've made up reasons for nuking rayn or Marv or someone good instead of vayne right? Or I would have just kept my nuke, but I see no scenario in which nuking vayne isn't worth my life as scum. Especially when I can be pretty sure a revenge nuke is coming (since this is VA we're talking about). Instead, suppose I'm a townie, I've decided to use my nuke before going to sleep, I look around at the players who haven't been nuked yet, and I choose vayne. How does my post in this scenario differ from what I actually posted? (Protip: it doesn't) Also I strongly disagree that other players who had not yet been nuked had done all the things I talked about vayne doing. He was definitely more hypocritical and more suspect than the other people who were still alive and unnuked. 3. The only reason I was unsure was that Marv and prome seemed persuaded by your outpouring of emotion and rage. I think they're both good players so the fact that they appeared to think you were genuine made me hesitant. 4. I don't care who you are scum with. I don't look at potential teams until someone flips. I look for the people most likely to be scum and try to make all of them die. Good town post. His later play from page four onwards is fine. | ||
|
OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:52 OOHCHILD wrote: Not true? but pandain i actually read your entire case for real and it didn't convince me. yes true. Even the worst mafia players do not slip in every post of theirs. I can tell from Pandain's case, even when i havn't read it, and even if SnB is scum, that at least 50% of his points are invalid. If you do a case like that the main point gets buried somewhere between there and it's alot easier for scum to defend as if they defend 90% of the case it looks good even if it's the 10% that actually makes them scum, just because they defended pretty much everything -> case is bad. | ||
|
OOHCHILD
United States570 Posts
thats how analysis is done mostly... you find the scummy posts and you say what's scummy about them | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43179 Posts
On November 01 2013 08:01 OOHCHILD wrote: pandain didn't analyze every single one of his posts.. thats how analysis is done mostly... you find the scummy posts and you say what's scummy about them Do you seriously think scum!SnB has 20 scummy posts? Every one of those posts Pandain quoted can possibly make him scum? | ||
|
Pandain
United States12979 Posts
1. SnB's play is more like his play in Thug Life then TL Noir 2. SnB has been posting like a scum and not like a town. He is appearing town by posting analysis, but failing to try to catch and find scum by failing to engage in town discourse or really push his reads. He gave poor reasons for lynching WoS and I don't like how he just ignored Clarity. 3. I simply don't like his abrupt nuke on HCC 4. I don't get the feeling he genuinely cares about this game. He is on a 6 game streak and is playing not just poor but like somewhat uninterested despite all his posting. Larger Context Here is my current reads: Promethelax WaveofShadow Pandain [UoN]Sentinel Oatsmaster Koshi strongandbig OOHCHILD marvellosity Seuss Onegu Clarity_nl HotCottonCandy raynpelikoneet I believe the Mafia to be in Sentinel, Koshi, SnB, OOHchild, Seuss/Onegu, and HCC. Let's say three scum since there are 13 people. I'd be willing to switch from SnB to any of these people except Sentinel, but this is why I believe SnB to be scum. | ||
|
Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
| ||
| ||
