EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XLVII - Page 35
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heavenz
Austria301 Posts
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LoneMeow
Finland1396 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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infii
Germany153 Posts
On September 06 2013 00:29 infii wrote: In my last bigger post I only focused on the guys with a low post count to get more information out of them, I don’t get why this was considered scummy... Unfortunately that didn’t work very well. Myrzeth even stated himself being a lurker. (wut?) I think I will be able to post a quick summary on my reads and my vote shortly before the day ends. For this approach I will analyse different cases instead of single people: Case 1 – First discussion about lynching Day 1 Coming soon/when I have the time Case 2 – Holyflare’s denial of posting reads early on The main post: Reactions from Umasi and my thoughts: + Show Spoiler + First reply: On September 04 2013 12:34 Umasi wrote: Alright holyflare. We've beaten the subject of no lynching to death, which ended in you backtracking You've told us that we shouldn't talk about town/scum reads day one You didn't reveal your scum or town reads. Why am I here again? What are we talking about? moreover didn't you have questions for me? Did you forget them/forget to ask them? Umasi is over reacting here imo. Ok you finished one discussion and you don’t think there are other topics which could be discussed apart from reads and thoughts? Instead you propose (indirectly) to speculate over subjective opinions for the next 40 hours? I don’t see that to be more productive or helpful for town. Holy’s defense: On September 04 2013 12:45 Holyflare wrote: Totally just responded to Bereft that's why it's 'backtracked' or if you're implying I've changed my stance, I haven't. I'd like you to see what I wrote, It's just telling people that no-lynching is an option and it should be used within this game. Also, I never said not to talk about scum reads, just how can you possibly formulate a case on somebody so quickly????? If you want to accuse someone of being scum why would you publicly announce it SO early with the offchance that they could 180 on their whole style of writing because you picked out their name. Why not keep it to yourself and formulate the case based on your initial suspicions and when it comes close to actually lynching someone you'd have substantial reasoning for a lynch rather than, 'oh his first post was scummy but then he became better'... As for questions towards you, I asked for you to elaborate first before I asked the questions but now you've mimicked other peoples responses because you were away so I don't need to ask the questions anymore. Next post: On September 04 2013 13:02 Umasi wrote: ended in you backtracking the fucking conversation, not you backtracking your stance on it. I guess I was unclear. let me phrase this differently and in a totally explicit manner Holyflare, why are you against discussion? You helped get it going in the beginning, but you sure aren't anymore. In fact, it could be said that you are against discussion from occuring. That is blatantly scum agenda. ##VOTE HOLYFLARE Umasi even increasing his aggression and going totally over board. Holy never been against discussion as we know he played a big part in the first one (see above). It looks like Umasi is desperately trying to find a reason to call Holy scummy and vote on him asap because if you read Holy’s root post and his defense it makes no sense to presume that Holy is against discussion. The discussion goes back and forth in the same manner as above until: On September 04 2013 14:23 Umasi wrote: ##UNVOTE HOLYFLARE Do you think what I did was bad play? you can go to bed and address this when you wake up/whenever you want, I'm going to do homework. tbth, this entire thing is pro-town since people will be able to talk about it, and it gives me more to go off of concerning you (and the people who comment about it), and possibly you more to go off of (regarding me and the people who comment), assuming you're town. If you're scum w.e. For everyone, just a psa about me I normally keep the person I think is the scummiest as my vote target, but since there are quite a few people I'm leery of, it rests on no one for now. Yes this discussion was pro town. But even though you try to phrase it in a positive way, this discussion sheds a scummy light on you Umasi because: - Your reasoning about it being pro town is weak - You could have explained your ‘vote behaviour’ beforehand to everyone. Now it just looks like an excuse - You didn’t apply your ‘vote behaviour’ in the last game we played together at all Reactions from Blurry and my thoughts: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 12:53 Blurry wrote: The reason you voice your suspicions is because it puts pressure on that person. When someone is under pressure they make mistakes and reveal things they shouldn't. Write about your hunches, it also allows us to see if you are innocent, and yes, when you are town you need to prove your innocence by providing good analysis and leading the discussion. First post addressing the topic in a considered manner. It is a valid point but applies more to after the first day than before, as holy mentioned shortly after. Later on: On September 04 2013 13:38 Blurry wrote: Two things: Scum read in retaliation to him questioning you is pretty suspicious. You aren't helping your case with that, especially because your analysis is flawed. Aggression at the start is in no way indicative of scum, and if anything, is more a town indicator than anything, especially when he is leading the charge against a player. It is really risky for scum to be so direct because it draws so much attention to them. Umasi is probably my biggest town read for that reason right now. He is right on that point. However I consider his aggression fake (see above why). In that case it would mean the exact opposite, which puts also the relation of Blurry and Umasi in question. Is he defending him? Or is he just voicing his opinion? Case 3 – The LV slipup Coming soon/ when I have the time Damn I’m running out of time here and won’t be able to finish it until I have to leave. So instead I’ll just post it unfinished and add the other cases on a later time when I can afford to write it. :/ I have the overall feeling that we are town led by scum because of the chaotic back and forth of discussions, random accusations and fake aggressiveness. Everyone needs to focus on the facts at hand and not let himself be guided by lurish arguments. Reads: Umasi + Show Spoiler + Had pretty neutral discussion with mostly holyflare about lynching day 1. Both sides had their valid points until + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 12:08 Holyflare wrote: Nothing has changed, I will lynch the lurkiest player (unless obvious modkill) on the first night if I must. I was bringing up the situation of no lynches because this game had started with an even amount of players (normal mafia games are odd numbers of players) and so it is within our favour to at least no lynch once. Especially if our blue roles are favourable but even without. I've explained that in my previous post. That being said I'm not telling you my scum reads or especially my town reads at this moment in time. This is where his argumentation derailed a bit from my point of view. Like this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 13:02 Umasi wrote: ended in you backtracking the fucking conversation, not you backtracking your stance on it. I guess I was unclear. let me phrase this differently and in a totally explicit manner Holyflare, why are you against discussion? You helped get it going in the beginning, but you sure aren't anymore. In fact, it could be said that you are against discussion from occuring. That is blatantly scum agenda. ##VOTE HOLYFLARE How can he claim holy to be against discussion when he said he won't tell his reads so early? Reads are just a topic under many you can discuss about. Also + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 13:29 Umasi wrote: on the one hand, you like it when they panic to create posts. On the other hand, you don't like it when they have to panic to create posts. You don't like it when they can freely post and coordinate with their allies, but you need them to formulate the post for scum hunting. By the same logic, holyflare, why are townies EVER mislynched? They have all the time in the world, etcetcetc. His unvote, about 80mins after he voted holy, was weird, too. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 14:23 Umasi wrote: ##UNVOTE HOLYFLARE Do you think what I did was bad play? you can go to bed and address this when you wake up/whenever you want, I'm going to do homework. tbth, this entire thing is pro-town since people will be able to talk about it, and it gives me more to go off of concerning you (and the people who comment about it), and possibly you more to go off of (regarding me and the people who comment), assuming you're town. If you're scum w.e. For everyone, just a psa about me I normally keep the person I think is the scummiest as my vote target, but since there are quite a few people I'm leery of, it rests on no one for now. Why did he unvote him so fast? I would have liked to hear if holy actually freed himself from suspicion or if someone else rose in suspicion so he couldn't keep holy voted, according to his 'play'. In the meantime LV's post-edit happened. After killer and ray jumped right onto him and LV defended himself, Umasi made his move: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 10:11 Umasi wrote: CASE 6: LORD VELOCITY the crime: edits and then asks for a few hours The return, excuse, and fuck up. He returns, apologizes, and gives his reason.The issue? He said he'd brb in a FEW hours, and he was only gone for one and a HALF. SOMEONES IN DEEP SHIT NOW ##VOTE LORD VELOCITY That was a joke btw, I'm not actually voting velocity. I think it was a normal fuckup that town or scum could make, he obviously legitimately forgot the rules, and him posting like that is not scum motivated, obviously not town motivated, so it shouldn't be why you vote him. That said, if you have a reason for voting him that is based on something other than him accidentally posting, feel free! But killer/ray, it felt like you both voted him only because of that. Holyflare, thank fucking god you finally posted something. This makes you significantly less scummy. As is, I gut lean towards heavenz, but I think both infii and heavenz are reasonable lynch choices. The third person I am considering is Pharcyd, because he points out the obvious mistake heavenz made and then NOTHING ELSE, but he falls under the lurking category atm. He and heavenz aren't scum together, probably. I don't mind ray and vel being around since they're active, I want bereft and blurry to come back since they had a single stint of activity, but they're not who I'd like to lynch. out of heavenz, infii, and phar, heavenz is the one I want cleared up first. ##VOTE HEAVENZ I really like his reasoning about LV here, since I had the same feeling about it. Also his vote on heavenz lasted much longer than on holy. After heavenz defends himself somewhat decent, Umasi backs off. If I compare his first 2 vote patterns there is a lot of discrepancy and I think that is because of fake aggressiveness against holy. It feels like Umasi had to play a role in the beginning which he was uncomfortable with. As soon as that ended he returned to his normal self. His final vote on ray was reasonable, considering rays shitty defense... He also prompted ray to spam reads, which we could consider after the lynch, if he flips town + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 06:54 Umasi wrote: If you're town, ray, at this point, where you are probably going to be lynched, this is my advice SPAM READS. this is your last chance. If you're mafia, SPAM READS TO LOOK TOWNIE if you're town, we can consider your reads if you're mafia, we'll just ignore them. Nothing really of importance happened after that. His vote on me was ok, since I wasn't able to write very much. Conclusion You can tell by reading his filter that he has some experience with this game. His posts were pretty consistent throughout the game, except during the time he voted holy. Which tends me to believe that a) umasi and holy are scum and started this game with a play or b) Umasi is scum and was voted by scum team to apply pressure on Holy. Given Umasi's experience, a scenario where Umasi is town and fucks up like that is unlikely. heavenz + Show Spoiler + His first reads: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 15:26 heavenz wrote: Umasi, is very aggressive, which is a townlike nature, but beeing aggressive on the first day with everyone just getting into isn't a big feat, so that reduces my town read of him at the moment, at least he called me out for my opening post, which was indeed worthless, and thought to be just a bit of a discussion starter before I went to bed (I didn't think the game would actually start yesterday). However Pharcyd3 also jumped on me with 1 post, 1 line, calling me out and then leaving the thread. At least equally scummy to my opening post, even more so that he just followed Umasi. There need to come more indeed. Lord Velocity, I don't have to quote here much as every post says: he doesn't like to get attention and tries to behave neutral / hide Holyflare is just doing his thing, posting much, but the content is mostly contentless. As he said himself, he is holding back his informations. Blurry good townread opening posts, focussing on the discussion. Chairman Ray, suspicious, or just weird? What is this about... Killerdog, started out with a strong town post, but then just keept summing Umasi's and Holyf.'s conversation up. I want to have more than you just repeating and summing up the last 5 posts. most Scum: Lord Velocity, Pharcyd3, Chairman Ray, Holyflare (until he stops holding back, which I assume will be on day 1, then we'll see.) most Town: Blurry, Killerdog, Umasi His next noteworthy + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 23:32 heavenz wrote: I know what you mean, it's my first game as well. You act overly defensive as soon as someone talks about you, that's suspecious because if you're town you have nothing to hide. Also it's not a shitty town when someone asks questions, it's the job. That you don't think about yourself as suspecious is nice, but it doesn't mean that the others think the same. You are also in no danger to be lynched as not a single person voted for you. So man up a bit! I agree with you too, we should hear more opinions. On September 04 2013 23:02 Lord Velocity wrote: A lot of people have also seemed to jump on the "Umasi Holy pro town Velocity scum" but nobody has even thought that it could be just shitty town. And nobody has thought of if the "pro town" moves are just good mafia. I think I shoulndn't be lynched and we should hear from more people about reads on everybody before we misslynch and end up having no reads. Please. I do'nt think I'm suspicious, I answered one question and got words put in my mouth by Umasi so I think that could have something to my "suspiciousness" But think of it how you will. I don't think I should be the one to die though. I'm going to school, so I might post from there. Bye/brb Going on with defending himself and some reads: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 17:58 heavenz wrote: so firstly regarding me, Umasis orignional opinion about me was : then come Holyf. made me suspicious because I have him on my scum list but didn't press on. My answere to that is that you're a) an active player b) you said you kept your reads to yourself for a given while perhaps that was scum tactics to delay anything, but it sounded reasonable to me. I was just cuirous to see your reads on players, but I was expecting you to post them without me having to press them out of you (I am not sure I know how that works lol). Then you press on about my idle posts, that they are non-contributary. I don't know how you value contribuatry in this game, so I can't say anything to that. I was writing down what I thought in that moment, because it seems in my timezone was nothing happening. What is interesting is however is that usami jumps on your post regarding me, on brings it one step further and immidiatly votes me, regardless of me having sleeping at that time and no news. It smells like a follow move, have you finally established total dominance? He's falling in love with your analysis. We have to give credit were credit is due, you weren't the first to go on me, his gut feeling can be explained as such: True though is that the most charismatic player (Holyf) and the most aggressive player (Umasi) seem to dislike I. So how can I defend my entrance post, it's not possible anymore, it was written. I adore roleplaying, and was surprise how I was shut down... we are agents after all, are we not... wtf. what ever. ok continue with Bereft jumping following umasi on me, and make me look suspicious for a) calling out the weird ray QT post I saw that you asked, but I didn't really understand what it meant, so I hoped for a better explanation. b) the truth is, you're to complex for me to understand. + Show Spoiler + @holyflare - agreed that meta has its merits, especially in a newbie game. i think that newbies' meta could be easier to discern vs. vets because we aren't as self-aware in our game play. what i do find interesting is that per your comments, i went back to browse past games, and in the last game you were in, like the very first post i see you make right out of the gate advocates lynching all liars and lurkers. mind explaining the sudden change of heart? why initiate this topic of conversation? sure, you could argue about the "math" of not lynching, but while this ultimately comes down to a game about numbers (like survivor!) your speculation about the math of it all seems pointless to me, because how do you quantify something like the present value of future clues? the cost of inaction? etc etc. i like blurry's idea. it's a bit early for me to have much of an opinion, but why not: on the town-dar: umasi - a bit rude perhaps, but not afraid to tread on toes and call shit out. on the scum-dar: don't wanna seem like i'm just following you, but i gotta say lord velocity too. while my first instinct was also to be suspicious of holyflare for advocating no lynch, i think LV was a bit quick to FOS holyflare with a 1-liner just for that. because i could see several reasons why scum would prefer a lynch day 1. if anything they might even think they stand to gain more by lynching day 1 vs no lynch unless they're incredibly risk averse lol. I don't understand anything. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 12:08 Holyflare wrote: That being said I'm not telling you my scum reads or especially my town reads at this moment in time. hahaha ok dude, we'll try our best to survive the night without your brilliant insights. can't promise that we will though. it's not in our hands. (yours...maybe?) This was not my reacting, even though I posted in the same way as you. I expected Holyf. to give reads before the night. + Show Spoiler + hm. well. if we're just going to chat and make small talk ... i have to admit i'm no longer browsing that other newbie game for "meta" -- but for pure lulz. Alakaslam and iVLosK! sooo good. so many gems. i'd probably have kept alakaslam alive just for the banter. hahah but seriously if we're just going to talk about inconsequential shit, what's the point? also infii, killerdog, myrzeth, pharcyd3, where you guys at? Some "meta" stuff I don't understand. Calling out afk's, reasonable. At write a 1 or 2 liner to everyplayer, without any actualy content or further explanations. I can come to a conclusion, likewise. Regarding Lord Velocity I will say this, Umasi seems to belive he's town, and interpreting every word he says as a town newby mistake. In fact Lord Velocity seems to panic under pressure but bold after he felt Umasi shielding him. This could mean some things, either Lord Velocity is playing a wicked sick good noob, or he indeed is a town that can't deal with pressure for what eer reasons. We will see. (Lord V don't take this post attack right now :D, at the moment I am almost convinced, that edit thing was way over the top lol). Regarding Holyf. I am actually dissapointed by his analysis. He was given time without pressure, and all he comes up with is heavenz ain't much town coz his idle post sucks. Deep man. You have some backstory on Infis we couldn't know and you play it out. Regarding Infis it's hard to have a opinion, coz his town play is very casual, I appreciate your efford to suspect him, as I appreciate your efford to suspect me, but I am still hoping for more. I wrote you as scum because I don't see the purpose of most of your post yesterday. You were arguing about things I don't acknowldge as relating to the game, and give some smartass advice. Yes you played before, I get it. you posted too much, but your typical day1 post looked like this + Show Spoiler + Also, I never said not to talk about scum reads, just how can you possibly formulate a case on somebody so quickly????? If you want to accuse someone of being scum why would you publicly announce it SO early with the offchance that they could 180 on their whole style of writing because you picked out their name. Why not keep it to yourself and formulate the case based on your initial suspicions and when it comes close to actually lynching someone you'd have substantial reasoning for a lynch rather than, 'oh his first post was scummy but then he became better'... As for questions towards you, I asked for you to elaborate first before I asked the questions but now you've mimicked other peoples responses because you were away so I don't need to ask the questions anymore. glad you changed your mind. + Show Spoiler + I find it ridiculous that people can post pages about lurker lynching, their ideas on what people are doing that is town and not town but when I post it then what? It's "let's stop talking about policy bla bla"..... calm down, i'm redirecting conversation to more applicable topics rather than what is going on which is a lot more helpful than shitting all over the post. policies... what the fuck then comes your 1 post, the one single post that has actual (this) game concerning content, in which you finally give some of your long waited reads. You come up with your background story on infi which makes him look more scummy and that regard me, that is all? You're trying to establish a pole position in this town without *actually* giving much? I think you're underestimating noobs,.. or not. I'll keep an eye on you. Apart from the defense he doesn't say much and only attacks holy. That combined with the lack of focusing on other people looks a bit scummy to me. His first vote goes to Blurry because + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 06:47 heavenz wrote: ##vote Blurry he's a worse version of myRZeth. Everything you do is so smothe, totally neutral. You're not giving in anywhere, dispite, I belive you could. You acknowldge your neutrality and think you can just pass by it. A little suspecious on VL there, but not commiting (lol just by what he's writing he's suspicious as f´´k). I don't trust you, and I value Rays's work more. I have made a longer case where I went through your posts before. I don't agree that Blurry was 100% neutral, but how can he be a worse version of myrzeth? It should be the other way around, myrzeth is the worse version of blurry. More explanation: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 06:55 heavenz wrote: It's not hard to see, both try to accomplish the same thing: staying undercover. mrzeth used the way that works in sc2 mafia and Blurry tries to use a way that feints townmanship in this game. Just look at his posts, am I the only one seeing this? Ray makes spectacular moves and get's voted on (mind after he got voted on he makes such!) Blurry just "yeah I am neutral, what ya gonna do bout it". It's my first game, but this seems to me very suspecious, he made not a single case against someone he just wants to slip by, my feeling this indicates mafia closeness. I hate follow a leader lol. Holyf. yeah, explain this ray thing to me. Apart from the neutral claim, Blurry at least contributed. However I think he saw that lynching Blurry wasn't gonna happen so he switched to myrzeth 10mins later. Conclusion I like that he is making his own judgements and question the motive of others before committing to something. He committed wrongly on Blurry but that makes him even more towny to me. There is only one possibility in which heavenz can be scum and that is him purposely committing to Blurry to NK him afterwards so that he looks town. Though I feel the odds for this are small. From the things he posted he is pretty much town and honestly I don't believe he could pull of such a bold play as newbie scum. killerdog + Show Spoiler + Acting pretty neutral in the beginning, mostly summarizing the events. Made a good post + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 14:21 killerdog wrote: One very last thing, Umasi and Holyflare, if you don't resolve this within a page or two, just drop it. Everyone has noticed that Holyflare said two things which appear to go against each other a bit, but you two are by far the most vocal people so far in the thread, both of you have said a ton of things already, and this argument is just stalling the discussion now. Having the two most vocal people crash into each other immediately just means that the other 10 players can get away with not saying anything SUPER easily, and the aim day 1 is to get as much information on as many people as possible. It's been noted that Umasi has been tunelling hard on Holyflare, and it's been noted that Holyflare has mentioned several other topics of discussion which have been brought up in the meantime. I doubt Holyflare is going to suddenly crack at this point, and I doubt anything Holyflare says will fully satisfy Umasi. By all means try and settle this if you can, but I feel it would be much more pro town to note down that this happened, maybe revisit it at a later date, and focus on getting as many people to talk about as many things as possible. It just feels like all potential discussion topics (including the questioning of velocity) was brought in the last few pages have ended up being ignored because of this really early vote call/interrogation. He did some write-ups in which he summarized the situation and gave his thoughts, but they are neutral at best and not very useful. His vote on LV to obtain information was ok though. I found that his useful posts were the shorter ones most of the time. Like this one. + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 00:30 killerdog wrote: I thought I sort of did that in the long post I made while ago, but it might have been a bit hard to find because the post got a bit bloated :p I'll just put players in an abridged list of reads, in vague town to mafia order Town- Killerdog: (fuck yeah) Umasi: + Show Spoiler + Currently town read, hasn't been as much as some people, but the the posts he did make all seemed to serve a purpose, and I feel like he's been consistent in calling out behaviour he disagrees with. Also amde a few good town guiding posts. As the game progresses I'd hope for a little more reads/pressure coming from him, but he's definitely not what I'd call n1 lynch potential at all. Blurry: + Show Spoiler + I got a very town read off blurry, for reasons I said last post. However he's provided no content (other then a "good post tomorrow" promise) in the last 36 or so hours. I'm keeping him high on my town list under the assumption that he's going to make a really good town post in the next few hours, if he doesn't post, or just parrots some other opinions then he's going quite far down the list very quickly. Don't feel like he'd be a good n1 lynch just because I'm loath to abandon someone who read so town at start, but if he doesn't have a reason for vanishing or if he posts nothing of value before the voting deadline I'll reassess. Holyflare: + Show Spoiler + Holyflare's been very very active, even if a lot of the posts have been a bit fulffy with regards to relevant content. I felt like he spent most of day 1 arguing about how "mafia should be played" rather then actually playing it, which can read as scum given how he didn't want any associations thrown on him, but he god into three arguments really quickly with blurry, bereft and Umasi and didn't back down from any of them (to the point where Umasi voted him.) I feel that's a point in his favour as town, because it would take a very brave mafia to be willing to thrust himself into the limelight that quickly. He's also made two decent posts since the, one calling out heavenz and infii for their relative lack of content. While ragging on people who haven't been very productive is by no means enough to put you as a pure town read, I liked his posts, and unless he suddenly locks up would like to keep him around. Worth noting is that I think having at this stage in the game, I voting off a vocal player who might be a bit scummy is a worse play then voting off someone who has contributed nothing. We really don't want to punish contributing, and potentially end up on day 3 or 4 with a few players who have yet to commit to anything, and have all the people we've pushed hard (and have lots of post to reference and analyse) be dead. it gets a bit fuzzier here Lord Velocity: + Show Spoiler + It feels a bit like he wears his heart on his sleeve, he goes super from a little pressure, then with a little reassurance goes super starts posting normally, then goes super defensive/apologetic from some more pressure, then a little reassurance and he's back to posting normally, even being willing to knock other people for being suspicious of him because he feels he's been cleared. I don't think a mafia would be this confident in towns opinion of him, and would be a little more wary given how many times he's been under heavy suspicion. I also like that he's actively posting and engaging in discussion. Again, I really don't see him as a n1 lynch candidate right now, just because he's active, unafraid despite already having been under the gun twice, and as I said in holyflares area. Even if someone is reading a bit scummy, as long as they're active and contributing I'd rather lynch someone who's being super non-committal on the first day or 2. I get that that some people might disagree with that statement but if they do then I'd ask that we have that discussion day 2 rather then now, as we have only got 9 hours left to decide on a lynch, and I'd rather leave "meta policy" discussions or whatever until we've decided on a lynch for tonight. Bereft: + Show Spoiler + Honestly have no idea what to do with him right now, he argued with holyflare early on, then made a post about another game being funny and vanished. It feels like he didn't re-read the thread closely enough on returning or something, but he was making some accusations/quoting things out of context which didn't really make sense at the time he got back. He's not been afraid to give opinions on multiple people though, and I wouldn't mind keeping him around as long as he posts more/says more. If he keeps vanishing then coming back and quoting things out of context he's gonna go down the list pretty fast. Lonemeow: + Show Spoiler + Have trouble getting a read right now, doesn't have very many posts, but he's asking questions when he see's things which don't make sense to him and is giving his opinion on things. While he's part of the trio of inii/heavenz/lonemeow who I feel have been a little sparse with regards to putting their foot down, and would like to see a bit more pressure applied towards him, I feel out of those three he's been asking questions indiscriminatingly which puts him above the other two for now.. Heavenz: + Show Spoiler + Same boat as lonemeow right now, he moans about inactives but has a grand total of 6 posts, only two of which contained actual analysis. While his longest post isn't poorly written and contains some decent insight, but is a bit sparse with actual reads (only clear read is him saying velocity is town), 2 or 3 good points isn't really much to your name after almost 48 hours of play. Personally I don't think he's a good n1 lynch, because he's shown the potential for decent analytical posts, and is willing to throw suspicion on people, however if he doesn't start posting more regurarly and being a bit clearer with what he thinks things actually mean then he's not going any higher on my list. Infii: + Show Spoiler + Hasn't posted much at all, he promised a big post today, and based on that he'll either go up in the list or stay here, I'll probably make my decision on whether he feels like a valid day 1 lynch or not based off that. Chairman ray: + Show Spoiler + Said he was working on his scum reads but hasn't mentioned *anyone* except holyflare and umasi, where are you reads? Also jumped really hard on Lord Velocity, I know I did too but I've explained my reasoning, and I'm curious what Ray's is. Hasn't really done anything except say things about holyflare and umasi, who aren't really relevant (imo) with regards to the day1 lynch, and has shown no signs of changing, He's probably the non afk player I would be most willing to lynch at this point. Pharcyd3: + Show Spoiler + afk-ed, probably gonna get mod killed myrzeth: + Show Spoiler + claims he's been active but hasn't posted shit. That means he's read all our posts saying he needs to come out and hasn't done anything. This isn't a game where everyone does their own thing in a corner, it's a game where town has to work together, not sure if he's really bad town, creative mafia, or trolling but he's my current #1 lynch Up until the lynch came closer killerdog looked like solid town. But the most confusing to me is his voting logic. He voted myrzeth because he was listed as his biggest scum read in his list above. He also said several times, that he is leaning more towards lynching myrzeth + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 05:11 killerdog wrote: Given how little he's posted so far, I think any attempt to work out what role he is is just going to be speculation. Blurry has made the argument that he's not mafia because mafia would have defended themselves by now. I disagree strongly with supporting that view point because not only does it discourage him from posting, but reading a lack of contribution as townie is pretty just getting a bit WIFOM imo. (did I use it right? :p) I also don't like that blurry brought that up so quickly, that's a valid point to make if we get to 30 minutes before the deadline and he still hasn't posted or something, but bringing it up so early before myrzeth has proven that he isn't going to defend himself further just complicates everything imo. No reason to provide someone under pressure with an out. Personally I'm in no way convinced that he's scum. I think it comes down to a choice between lynching myrzeth because he's lurking/being useless or lynching someone else who we think reads scummy. Personally I'm leaning towards lynching myrzeth, because from the way he responded to people challenging his silence, and the fact he still hasn't come in with a post bigger then a one liner, means I don't think he's going to suddenly be super contributive tomorrow. I'd rather not have to spend half a day arguing with someone about play styles again, or even worse have him just dissappear and then being in a situation day 2 where there might be a strong mafia read we want to lynch, but having to choose between lynching the afk lurker or the mafia read. And if he turns out to be mafia thats just a perk. On September 06 2013 05:19 killerdog wrote: That post was a bit longer then i meant it to get, but basically I see our choice right now as being, 1. lynch myrzeth for shitty town play (and if we get lucky and hit a mafia, yay win) 2. lynch someone as a scum read, the a few people are pushing for LV in particular. I also think chairman ray has been a bit suspicious compared to other people, but I've seen a few people put him down as one of their town reads so thats moved him (temporarily) down on my scum list. 3. lynch someone else for shitty town play, but I don't see anyone else as anywhere near as potentially useless at myrzeth seems to be looking. On September 06 2013 06:33 killerdog wrote: I really don't like letting myr live til day 2, but hopefully he'll start playing the game tomorrow. We wont lose from a second mislynch (if ray is town) so I guess it's not the end of the world if we have to kill myr off tomorrow for still being afk. ##vote chairman ray I'd rather not have to spend half a day arguing with someone about play styles again, or even worse have him just dissappear and then being in a situation day 2 where there might be a strong mafia read we want to lynch, but having to choose between lynching the afk lurker or the mafia read. He explains the situation in + Show Spoiler + On September 08 2013 13:26 killerdog wrote: First of all, it's worth noting that almost an hour and a half had passed between the two posts, and a lot of stuff had been said by various people in that time. I've talked a little about how my perception of the night went in the post above, but basically I was getting the feeling that a lot of people weren't behind the idea of lynching myrzeth. At the time I switched votes, I believe there was only one other guy on him. Infii, heavenz and ray all put their votes on him after that. Given that other then myrzeth, the two people in the limelight were LV and ray. I'd personally voiced why i didn't want to kill LV, and at this point my read on the situation was myrzeth wasn't gonna get lynched, (velocity was the only other guy on him iirc.) Therefore, given the choice between someone I felt "against" lynching, and someone I was rather suspicious of myself, you can see why I would lean towards ray. I decided that, as you were my main town read at the time, and had yet to go on velocity at all this game (other then the pressure at the very start,) I'd ask you for your reads on velocity and ray. You ended up not responding to the asked for read on velocity, but instead went onto ray with a vote. Given that I was leaning that way already, that was just the final straw which pushed me over the edge. When I found out myrzeth had switched his vote and people were piling votes onto myrzeth again, I very nearly switched back, but ended up making the snap decision to stay on ray. 6 am, I'm in denmark. But i have priorities :p Conclusion Town with some flaws. | ||
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infii
Germany153 Posts
myRZeth + Show Spoiler + Not much to say here. Being super passive, only posted a handful of things but nothing with contribution. Even admitted playing a lurker as his "tactic". He sprinkeled 1 corn of hope with this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 00:11 myRZeth wrote: i don t refuse to post anything, this is still early if someone accuses me like you do, or if i have a clue, i ll share it obviously But that never came true. Guess there were no clues he could make up until the end of day 2? lol even typing that sounds ridiculous. Conclusion If he is town, he is useless and we should lynch him. If he is scum, he is useless and we should lynch him. Imo that should have happened on Day 1 already... Bereft + Show Spoiler + Not much contirbution in the beginning except for disagreeing with Holy's playstyle, then pressuring LV. But his first brief analysis was pretty spot on: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 13:00 Bereft wrote: 1. Umasi + Show Spoiler + one of the most active posters - the fact that he's willing to use his vote to pressure people makes him pro-town in my eyes. why? voting patterns can be one of the strongest ways to make a case against scum, so the fact that he's not wary to use his vote is encouraging 2. Infii + Show Spoiler + he wrote one main analytical post, but it's hard for me to take it seriously because he analyzes myrzeth's "/in" and pharcyd3's ridiculous 1-liner. really needs to step it up, will become increasingly suspicious if he continues to provide such fluffy analysis 3. heavenz + Show Spoiler + pretty much what i said in my above post - his post read to me like he's trying to appear townie while really contributing nothing. suspicion level = high 4. killerdog + Show Spoiler + he wrote a lot, none of which stood out to me save for a random post addressing "loaded questions". that seemed pointless and like a misplaced effort to seem helpful. be succinct and articulate? no shit.  5. myRZeth + Show Spoiler + there's literally nothing on this guy 6. Bereft + Show Spoiler + innocent! awesome pro-townie 7. Pharcyd3 + Show Spoiler + nothing on this guy either, his 1st post was a joke and not even worth addressing without the context of other posts 8. HolyFlare + Show Spoiler + originally i couldn't tell if he was scum trying to derail the conversation with discussion about playing methods, but i think as the game has progressed i'm starting to lean towards town. i think the main thing winning me over is the air of confidence his posts exude that he can and WILL catch scum. this could be a pretty bold strategy (esp in a newbie game), but with that kind of air, i expect results and good analysis from him. if he starts spouting off insubstantial shit i'd have to rethink my stance. 9. Lord Velocity + Show Spoiler + my posts above should be pretty clear ... i can't decide how much benefit of the doubt i'm willing to give you at this point 10. Chairman Ray + Show Spoiler + too many troll posts, don't have a read on him right now to be honest 11. LoneMeow + Show Spoiler + i'd really like to hear from lonemeow. so far, his only posts have been to ask other players what their opinions are. i can't tell if he's trying to steer conversation away from himself towards other players or if he's doing all of his analysis in his head only because it fucking sucks to type with 1 hand  . funnily enough, his longest post in this thread is his description of his accident. (get well soon!) 12. Blurry + Show Spoiler + i liked his effort to generate interesting topics of conversation via posting scum / townie reads. that lessens my suspicions of him, but since then he's all but disappeared Then his first vote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 06:05 Bereft wrote: LV's arguments are laughably bad. also what's with him going balls to the wall to paint the 2 people with suspicions of him (blurry and myself) as mafia? would be disappointed if he genuinely finds me sketchy - am inclined to think this is an ink defense. ##vote lord velocity I agree with his arguments to be bad (see here + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 05:43 Lord Velocity wrote: Bereft has been repeating what Blurry had said multiple times and has been siding with him on everything he says because he clarified him as "Town" with confidence. And has even tried not agreeing with him in fear of me having further suspicions which to me is a bad thing to do because if you're convinced you're town, and that Hes town, why would you change it up? He also expands the case against LV later on: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 13:09 Bereft wrote: wow. okay. i'm at a bit of a loss. so much reading to catch on, but i can't believe you guys voted to lynch chairman ray out of all the other suspect characters in this thread (such as LV... wtf? seems like a no brainer). i had no read on chairman and he didn't give off any strong scum tells -- which makes me inclined to believe people who voted for him were stretching. which puts me in a hard position considering said people were my town reads. i will need to reanalyze over the weekend when i have more time, but for now, i remain solid on the point that lord velocity is scum, and i would like to add killerdog to that list. i've iterated this in multiple of my previous posts, but since almost nobody chose to vote with me, i'll build my case here again: LV starts off with a couple random lines saying he thinks anyone advocating no lynch is suspicious, and then proceeds to absolutely PANIC after blurry and myself say so far we're getting the strongest scum read out of him. at this point the game has barely started and there are only a couple posts from a few players, so was i definitely under the impression that he was scum and attempting to build a solid case against him? no, of course not. it's true that out of the few posts i had to look at, his was the most contentless and thoughtless at the time, but the main point of calling out his post was to initiate interesting discussion (ie take us away from the repetitive "to lynch day 1 or not to lynch" argument) as well as to gauge his reaction. his reaction was to complain that it was unfair, that he's new, that he's just a shitty town player -- basically a bunch of bullshit excuses. the main giveaway in my eyes is that he comes after the people who accused him; first umasi, then blurry, then inevitably me. and i say 'inevitably' because i repeatedly call him out and his only way of defending himself thus far has been to go offense on the accuser. this is not pro-town behavior whatsoever as he's not taking a step back to reevaluate his actions and explain his thought process, but purely a defense mechanism of someone feeling like they've been backed into a corner. also, i really want to call everyone's attention to this post: let me give you the timeline for this: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 13:00 Bereft wrote: 1. Umasi + Show Spoiler + one of the most active posters - the fact that he's willing to use his vote to pressure people makes him pro-town in my eyes. why? voting patterns can be one of the strongest ways to make a case against scum, so the fact that he's not wary to use his vote is encouraging 2. Infii + Show Spoiler + he wrote one main analytical post, but it's hard for me to take it seriously because he analyzes myrzeth's "/in" and pharcyd3's ridiculous 1-liner. really needs to step it up, will become increasingly suspicious if he continues to provide such fluffy analysis 3. heavenz + Show Spoiler + pretty much what i said in my above post - his post read to me like he's trying to appear townie while really contributing nothing. suspicion level = high 4. killerdog + Show Spoiler + he wrote a lot, none of which stood out to me save for a random post addressing "loaded questions". that seemed pointless and like a misplaced effort to seem helpful. be succinct and articulate? no shit. 5. myRZeth + Show Spoiler + there's literally nothing on this guy 6. Bereft + Show Spoiler + innocent! awesome pro-townie 7. Pharcyd3 + Show Spoiler + nothing on this guy either, his 1st post was a joke and not even worth addressing without the context of other posts 8. HolyFlare + Show Spoiler + originally i couldn't tell if he was scum trying to derail the conversation with discussion about playing methods, but i think as the game has progressed i'm starting to lean towards town. i think the main thing winning me over is the air of confidence his posts exude that he can and WILL catch scum. this could be a pretty bold strategy (esp in a newbie game), but with that kind of air, i expect results and good analysis from him. if he starts spouting off insubstantial shit i'd have to rethink my stance. 9. Lord Velocity + Show Spoiler + my posts above should be pretty clear ... i can't decide how much benefit of the doubt i'm willing to give you at this point 10. Chairman Ray + Show Spoiler + too many troll posts, don't have a read on him right now to be honest 11. LoneMeow + Show Spoiler + i'd really like to hear from lonemeow. so far, his only posts have been to ask other players what their opinions are. i can't tell if he's trying to steer conversation away from himself towards other players or if he's doing all of his analysis in his head only because it fucking sucks to type with 1 hand . funnily enough, his longest post in this thread is his description of his accident. (get well soon!) 12. Blurry + Show Spoiler + i liked his effort to generate interesting topics of conversation via posting scum / townie reads. that lessens my suspicions of him, but since then he's all but disappeared On September 05 2013 13:35 killerdog wrote: Good morning again, three hours sleep best sleep :D (8 am lectures should die in a fire) First off, I'd like to address why I jumped so hard on the edit. LV had a rather shaky start, and responded rather badly to the pressure Umasi put on him at the very beginning. He had just started making a more actual posts but I still didn't really have any read on him. When I saw that he had made a post then edited it, I figured I had main options. 1, I tell chairman ray to chill out, that it was not something worth starting a lynch train on, and maybe put a bit of pressure on ray or something. 2, I go on him full force and see what happens. There were two main reasons I went with the second option. Firstly, he's already proven to be weak to pressure, and I was curious to see how he'd respond the second time. A few of the more "scummy" elements of his first defence had been pointed out to him, and if he'd replied either really quickly (making the "back in a few hours" thing very sketchy) or if he'd replied with a long, well worded, well thought out argument, I would have been pretty suspicious of him because it would have been such a dramatic change from the last time. Secondly, There was always the chance that someone who had been relatively quiet/noncommital had jumped onto the vote train behind me, which would have given a lot of information depending on who they were. His defence felt very natural, It was all one giant paragraph, lots of run on sentences, it just didn't feel like something which had been proofread very much or anything like that, whereas I feel a mafia would likely have put a lot of time/thought into formulating that defence if they actually felt under real pressure. Furthermore, his first two posts in the thread, (before game started): I felt that these two things made him having just not read the rules properly more plausible, having a good handle on the how mafia works might lead to just skimming the rules rather then carefully reading them, whereas a total beginner or someone who's played forum mafia before would probably not make that mistake. Thats why I pressured really hard for a few posts then backed off again. I was surprised that he mentioned finding me suspicious as a result, given that he'd named me as town just a few posts above, but I don't see why a mafia would do that, it seemed more like sloppy play due to stress then being a particularly town or mafia move. @Bereft, the reason I said it felt like you were placated was because you were going on him quite hard, then he said that his style was to highlight posts you question and ask for explanations, and you go And then vanish. It just felt a bit like either you felt like you'd "done your bit" or his answer fully satisfied you, because talking about the other game just felt a bit like you were looking for a way to end the conversation, rather then agreeing or disagreeing with him. I can see how that doesn't contradict your reasoning for posting it the way you did though. Also, the focus shifted off LV after the first pressure thing, my feeling of the general consensus at the time was that he had screwed up, but we were willing to (at least for now) attribute that to inexperience, and he made a few posts giving his views on things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426146¤tpage=14#268 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426146¤tpage=14#274 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426146¤tpage=15#281 Nothing groundbreaking, but more then quite a few other people had done at that point. The votes to lynch were more reactions to the edited post, (as was umasi saying "don't vote vel"). I can see how these changes in mood can be hard to pick up on if you read the whole thread at once though. Also a point which i think is worth raising now. Given that we have to have voted for someone/sleep with 18 hours, and there is still a player who hasn't posted, (myrzeth,) If we lynch someone, say pharcyd3, and then myrzeth gets modkilled, what effect does that have on the game, and if we have a confirmed mod kill would it be better to sleep? I'm in a hurry to get to class so I don't have time to think about it properly right now, but I think we need to have a plan in place to account for the chance of there being a mod kill on myrzeth. Mod question, If myrzeth doesn't show up by midnight CET, does he just die, or does a replacement get put in. Browsing the thread, the only two replacements i noticed were koshi and someone else, but you said koshi had way too many games for a newbie mafia, and the other guy mentioned only doing it if apeture mafia didn't start, which it has. basically, he states that CLEARLY killerdog must be town because he's not afraid to give up his opinions on all the players. killerdog's post was a half hour after i had done a full breakdown on all my reads. does lord velocity acknowledge my list at all? am i CLEARLY town as well for providing all my reads? nope. so far, LV has shown himself to be a rookie mafia player, and this post is in line with his previous behavior -- a very transparent attempt to distance himself from his team mate. what i like is that several hours later he tries to back pedal from this: which to me really comes off as someone who has been told from his scummy partner to change his tune and be less obvious. from killerdog's side i also see evidence of feigned suspicion on his team mate. he votes for lordvelocity because of the edit, but then later takes it off with the explanation "His defence felt very natural, It was all one giant paragraph, lots of run on sentences, it just didn't feel like something which had been proofread very much or anything like that, whereas I feel a mafia would likely have put a lot of time/thought into formulating that defence if they actually felt under real pressure." hahaha what? ALL of lordvelocity's posts have been one giant paragraph with lots of run on sentences. that proves nothing. from dismissing suspicion of LV because of a supposedly good defense by LV (show me please?) all of a sudden LV becomes a non n1 lynch candidate and he promptly jumps on the myRZeth followed by the Chairman Ray bandwagon. cutting this off a bit abruptly because it's pretty late -- hope you guys will use this post as food for thought and go back and reread both of these posters' content to see if you think my points have validity. looking forward to the weekend when i can reread the thread and post a bit more analysis. Conclusion He made a solid case against LV and sticked to his guns throughout the game. All in all pretty much town. HolyFlare + Show Spoiler + Okay I mostly covered Holy up to the Day1 lynch on my previous posts so only a quick rundown here. Here + Show Spoiler + On September 07 2013 20:11 Holyflare wrote: Before I get into this whole lurker bull shit with myrz again here's a summary of why I think we should be voting one of the people who weren't on the chairman ray wagon. Entertaining the idea that blurry was town was a stretch to say the least, however, what made him the target for the nk? Realistically, any case made to do with it is pure speculation, yet, I think there are several justifiable ones. Everyone knows that blurry was against lord velocity right, but so was bereft, in terms of voting. Facing these reasons it must mean that either: a) blurry looked more townlike to someone than bereft (or bereft is scum) and blurry/bereft weren't on the wagons and so they had to pick one. b) blurry said something that made him look like a better target, most probably at night c) lord velocity is mafia and they wanted pressure off of him This made me suspicious. Instinctively, I was thinking that it is a bit of a, b and c. So, that being said it was time to filter dive. Throughout blurry's filter he was pretty tunnely on lord velocity. Obviously, there is some disagreement at the start between me and him: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:04 Blurry wrote: You get a lot more out of lynching than just the player dead, you also get loads of information on everybody and is one of the best ways to have the scum reveal themselves. Bandwagoning, Fence Sitting, Caving under pressure are some of the best ways to spot the scum and these are revealed when you lynch a player day 1. Since its plurality vote anyway, I'm going to be lynching somebody no matter what day 1, so now that the decision to lynch is taken out of your hands you better come up with some scum reads to not waste this day and reduce the chances of a mislynch. and here: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:13 Blurry wrote: A couple more things, please don't use loaded questions. I don't want to kill townspeople, but I also think that the risk of doing so is necessary to inspire discussion. Why does it have to be obvious that someone is scum? We should go off our best hunch rather than waste time. While these things don't make a towny, it made him appear townlike to some people. Namely: umasi: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 12:20 Umasi wrote: I am around to talk to, class finished and I'm at my computer. Why not? he was like 'oh hoh hoh this is a clever way to catch scum' or he's a troll. or he's legitimately confused by how this game is played. strongest town read:You for asking this question and trying to talk about something productive. strongest scum read: vel, for calling me out as town and ignoring the other parts of my reads post, it feels like he thought I was a threat to be appeased. I also am leery of heavenz for ignoring the discussion. heavenz: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 15:26 heavenz wrote: Umasi, is very aggressive, which is a townlike nature, but beeing aggressive on the first day with everyone just getting into isn't a big feat, so that reduces my town read of him at the moment, at least he called me out for my opening post, which was indeed worthless, and thought to be just a bit of a discussion starter before I went to bed (I didn't think the game would actually start yesterday). However Pharcyd3 also jumped on me with 1 post, 1 line, calling me out and then leaving the thread. At least equally scummy to my opening post, even more so that he just followed Umasi. There need to come more indeed. Lord Velocity, I don't have to quote here much as every post says: he doesn't like to get attention and tries to behave neutral / hide Holyflare is just doing his thing, posting much, but the content is mostly contentless. As he said himself, he is holding back his informations. Blurry good townread opening posts, focussing on the discussion. Chairman Ray, suspicious, or just weird? What is this about... Killerdog, started out with a strong town post, but then just keept summing Umasi's and Holyf.'s conversation up. I want to have more than you just repeating and summing up the last 5 posts. most Scum: Lord Velocity, Pharcyd3, Chairman Ray, Holyflare (until he stops holding back, which I assume will be on day 1, then we'll see.) most Town: Blurry, Killerdog, Umasi On September 04 2013 21:31 heavenz wrote: He's active, his opinions are townlike, he studied Lord Velocity who behaved a little suspicious. He started a discussion to bring everyone to speak and voice their opinions. That's more town than the most right now. Yes it could be fake, but in my book his action are town. On September 06 2013 06:28 heavenz wrote: I am still thinking that myrezth is a good target for a 1st day lynch. He is most of all a safe bet. Yes he might be town, but he's a counterproductive town, it's like with an employe, yes it's one employe more, but it's the one who's distracting the others from their work. Most of all he shows no willingness to learn. Ofcourse I would rather vote mafia on day1 but unless I have some sort of understanding a better bet, I go with myrezth. LV is a curious case, he loves umasi / holyf. and ignores everything what everyone else says and just tries to impress them. Chairman I kinda like your work or idea you had, and I am can't agree at the moment with holyf.'s case on you. Bereft and Blurry are both equally neutral, Blurry even acknowledged his neutrality, but tried to satisfy me by agree with me. No bro. I have not come to a conclusion yet, damn my mind. killerdog: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 03:48 killerdog wrote: ok here are my current reads/opinions on people. umasi -He was one of my original town reads, and hasn't been afraid of the limelight/stepping on peoples toes. I really liked his first post in that he pointed out that making "i am new" posts just serves to give people more ammunition to throw suspicion on random people, and potentially saved us from being in a situation where 4-5 people read really scummy just off their first post, which could have derailed town a lot and let mafia with decent first posts hide easily.) He was vocal about wanting to move on from the lynch/nolynch debate (which seems fair) and he put the original pressure on velocity. But then decided to pounce on holyflare. Whether that was a good decision or not I don't know but he comitted to it pretty hard, other then one post at velocity, he's focussed 100% on holyflare from that point on. He also poked chairman ray for a bit of information earlier on. I still think he's town, but given how willing he was to pressure that hard against holyflare, I would be hesitant to centre any kind of town circle around him. I would much rather have someone more passive/gentle like blurry helping guide the discussion because if we just pressure every mistake too hard, people will get intimidated and afraid of posting, and we risk tunell visioning away from more subtle scummy behaviour. Also worth noting that he and holyflare have played before, where (as far as i can tell) Umasi was scum and Holyflare played a good town town. I don't know if the events of that game have had any effect on the decisions either Umasi or Holyflare have made this game, since they brought it up in their first posts, it might as well be mentioned. infii -Didn't say much of anything yesterday, but thats understandable because timezones. He made a post today basically calling out the people who haven't been posting much, other then that he's one of the first people (other then velocity) to suggest Umasi isn't playing pro town. The only read i've been able to infer (other then the inactives) is that he's a bit suspicious of Umasi/maybe looking to disntance himself from umasi. First he voices a disagreement with Umasi's policy of keeping a vote on his suspect, the says He hasn't really contributed anything other then that, and it sticks out a bit that pretty much the only thing he's done is knock on other people for not doing enough. on the whole a pretty neutral read so far. heavenz -First post wasn't really anything, I believe he was saying hi before going to bed. His post with his reads is pretty intereseting, and i agree with most of them. I'm interested by the fact he has holyflare on his scum list (although i agree that holy has been being a bit uncooperative) as most people other then umasi seem to have read him as town so far. I've written this before holy's section, so we'll see if i change my mind on holyflare after going through holyflares filter again. Don't have much of a read on him, but he's contributed and seems much townier then some of the people so far. myRzeth -Still hasn't postsed, apparently he's in germany so I would expect him to post, at the latest, this evening. Otherwise he'll need to have a good excuse. Bereft -Not got much on him, he was supportive of blurry's move to just out reads to get things going, and he was also disagreeing with Holyflare when it came to Holyflares decision to withhold his reads. However while Umasi took this as a queue to pounce on holyflare, Bereft seemed pacified by holyflare posting this: and backed off hard, called for people who haven't psoted yet to post and dissapear. Don't have much of a read on him either way either. Pharcyd3 -By far the most suspicious person so far in my opinion. To reiterate what I said, his one post is just attacking heavenz for his first post, irony of that aside, doing that and then dissapearing is really scummy in my opinion. The reason I'm so suspicious of him is I'm having a hard time visualising a situation where he's town and acts like this. If he's in a hurry and didn't have time to read the thread then randomly throwing accusations at someone without having read the thread yet is either really bad town, or plain scum. If we assume that he wasn't just randomly throwing accusations around without reading the thread fully. If he had time to read the thread, why didn't he have the extra minute or two it would have taken to address any of the topics being discussed, I don't see a townie thinking it's ok to throw suspicions on someone, ignoring the current conversation, then disappear. I also found it interesting that so many people picked up on velocity's post, but so few noticed pharcyd3's. For the record here are the people who posted after pharcyd3's post but didn't mention it until I fingered him in my first post. HolyFlare, Blurry (references velocity), Bereft (references velocity), Umasi (references velocity) Note bereft did say just before i posted so he might have just missed it. HolyFlare -Holyflare seems to be involved in everything, early on he was very much in control of the flow of debate, bringing up sleeping n1, then not being afraid of disagreeing with people. However once Blurry suggested sharing reads he pretty defensive/confrontational. Regardless of his orientation, to me he feels like a rather charismatic player who doesn't want to just scrape by being passive and answering questions, but rather wants to be one fo the people in the driving seat, and that might be why he reacted to blurry taking the initiative like he did. There were three people who stood out to me as pressuring him on his refusal to share reads. -Bereft, who seemed to be satisfied by holyflares response, -Blurry, most of blurry's posts seem to be things holyflare disagreed with, or vice versa -Umasi, who ended up going hard on holyflare. To be honest I'm having a hard time getting any kind of read off of him. He's stated that his style is "asking off the cuff questions about posts" to catch people off guard. Something he's been consistent in doing. He also didn't seem to change his posting style, or go super defensive when umasi voted for him. He's talking alot (most posts of anyone i think) and doing a good job asking questions but the way he reacted to being asked for reads was a bit dereailing and very uncooperative. He hasn't really given any evidence to prove himself town so far. He's talking a ton about the over all "metagame" of mafia, and a lot about mafia tactics in general but basically nothing relevant to this game itself. It takes more then asking other people questions to prove yourself a townie, and refusing to give any analysis on the other players at all, while still expecting people to answer all your questions is asking for a lot. Still very much on the fence about him and I'm starting to regret interrupting Usami when i did. Lord Velocity -Originally I felt people were sort of ganging up on velocity without any real case. He made a first post which didn't say much other then give a "gut feeling" and, true, he was asked for reads by umasi and didn't answer the question before leaving the thread for a while, but considering that pharcyd3 made an at least equally suspicious post 12 minutes later, and that got totally ignored, the number of people putting velocity on their lists seemed a bit high. However after reading his defensive posts, I'm a lot more suspicious of him now. He called scum on Umasi based on Which feels a lot like just counter accusations rather then a justified read, just stating what happened rather then saying why you thought the actions were scummy isn't very watertight. This Also felt like a bit of an overreaction given the amount of pressure he was under at the time. He might just be a townie who wasn't expecting pressure and overreacted though. Not sure on him, but he's on the scummier end of the spectrum out the the players who have posted more then a paragraph or two. Hopefully he will start volunteering some information himself without any more pressure. Chairman Ray -Hasn't been very active yet, This one post is a huge elephant in the room when it comes to him The way he phrased it makes it seem unlikely that he's mafia slipping up. As someone else said, he might have been trying to trip up a mafia, or just screwing around, but I would very much like him to go on record saying why he posted this just so it's dealt with and doesn't cause misunderstandings later. Other then that he hasn't said much other encouraging threatening to lynch people which seems logical enough. Not enough content for a read though, hope he posts more tonight. LoneMeow -Hasn't said much content wise, although i do agree with his statement that Umasi/Holyflare argument seems a bit town v town. He seems to have popped in at a time when the thread was relatively inactive, and posed questions to a few people. He hasn't pointed out much which hasn't already been said though. Blurry -As i mentioned in an earlier post, Blurry was disagreeing with holyflare on several points over several different posts. Infact his first 5 posts are all either voicing a differing opinion to holyf, or straight up quoting him and disagreeing. He then brought up the topic of just sharing reads to promote discussion, which holyf refused to do (which then set umasi off.) I don't know if this is one of them trying to distance themselves from the other, or one getting some kind of read off of the other, (or indeed just a side effect of them being two of the more active players during that time period) but as it's pretty much all Blurry has done I feel it's relevant. He's also spared two posts to help explain a few things to velocity, from those two i would say he seems to think velocity is just town who overreacted to a bit of pressure, regardless of why he did it though, I think explaining why he was under suspicion is a pro town move, as mafia would probably want to let him just talk himself into a lynch rather then try and help him. I also liked how he helped move the discussion along on day 1 by calling for reads. One of the townier players imo. On September 06 2013 00:30 killerdog wrote: I thought I sort of did that in the long post I made while ago, but it might have been a bit hard to find because the post got a bit bloated :p I'll just put players in an abridged list of reads, in vague town to mafia order Town- Killerdog: (fuck yeah) Umasi: + Show Spoiler + Currently town read, hasn't been as much as some people, but the the posts he did make all seemed to serve a purpose, and I feel like he's been consistent in calling out behaviour he disagrees with. Also amde a few good town guiding posts. As the game progresses I'd hope for a little more reads/pressure coming from him, but he's definitely not what I'd call n1 lynch potential at all. Blurry: + Show Spoiler + I got a very town read off blurry, for reasons I said last post. However he's provided no content (other then a "good post tomorrow" promise) in the last 36 or so hours. I'm keeping him high on my town list under the assumption that he's going to make a really good town post in the next few hours, if he doesn't post, or just parrots some other opinions then he's going quite far down the list very quickly. Don't feel like he'd be a good n1 lynch just because I'm loath to abandon someone who read so town at start, but if he doesn't have a reason for vanishing or if he posts nothing of value before the voting deadline I'll reassess. Holyflare: + Show Spoiler + Holyflare's been very very active, even if a lot of the posts have been a bit fulffy with regards to relevant content. I felt like he spent most of day 1 arguing about how "mafia should be played" rather then actually playing it, which can read as scum given how he didn't want any associations thrown on him, but he god into three arguments really quickly with blurry, bereft and Umasi and didn't back down from any of them (to the point where Umasi voted him.) I feel that's a point in his favour as town, because it would take a very brave mafia to be willing to thrust himself into the limelight that quickly. He's also made two decent posts since the, one calling out heavenz and infii for their relative lack of content. While ragging on people who haven't been very productive is by no means enough to put you as a pure town read, I liked his posts, and unless he suddenly locks up would like to keep him around. Worth noting is that I think having at this stage in the game, I voting off a vocal player who might be a bit scummy is a worse play then voting off someone who has contributed nothing. We really don't want to punish contributing, and potentially end up on day 3 or 4 with a few players who have yet to commit to anything, and have all the people we've pushed hard (and have lots of post to reference and analyse) be dead. it gets a bit fuzzier here Lord Velocity: + Show Spoiler + It feels a bit like he wears his heart on his sleeve, he goes super from a little pressure, then with a little reassurance goes super starts posting normally, then goes super defensive/apologetic from some more pressure, then a little reassurance and he's back to posting normally, even being willing to knock other people for being suspicious of him because he feels he's been cleared. I don't think a mafia would be this confident in towns opinion of him, and would be a little more wary given how many times he's been under heavy suspicion. I also like that he's actively posting and engaging in discussion. Again, I really don't see him as a n1 lynch candidate right now, just because he's active, unafraid despite already having been under the gun twice, and as I said in holyflares area. Even if someone is reading a bit scummy, as long as they're active and contributing I'd rather lynch someone who's being super non-committal on the first day or 2. I get that that some people might disagree with that statement but if they do then I'd ask that we have that discussion day 2 rather then now, as we have only got 9 hours left to decide on a lynch, and I'd rather leave "meta policy" discussions or whatever until we've decided on a lynch for tonight. Bereft: + Show Spoiler + Honestly have no idea what to do with him right now, he argued with holyflare early on, then made a post about another game being funny and vanished. It feels like he didn't re-read the thread closely enough on returning or something, but he was making some accusations/quoting things out of context which didn't really make sense at the time he got back. He's not been afraid to give opinions on multiple people though, and I wouldn't mind keeping him around as long as he posts more/says more. If he keeps vanishing then coming back and quoting things out of context he's gonna go down the list pretty fast. Lonemeow: + Show Spoiler + Have trouble getting a read right now, doesn't have very many posts, but he's asking questions when he see's things which don't make sense to him and is giving his opinion on things. While he's part of the trio of inii/heavenz/lonemeow who I feel have been a little sparse with regards to putting their foot down, and would like to see a bit more pressure applied towards him, I feel out of those three he's been asking questions indiscriminatingly which puts him above the other two for now.. Heavenz: + Show Spoiler + Same boat as lonemeow right now, he moans about inactives but has a grand total of 6 posts, only two of which contained actual analysis. While his longest post isn't poorly written and contains some decent insight, but is a bit sparse with actual reads (only clear read is him saying velocity is town), 2 or 3 good points isn't really much to your name after almost 48 hours of play. Personally I don't think he's a good n1 lynch, because he's shown the potential for decent analytical posts, and is willing to throw suspicion on people, however if he doesn't start posting more regurarly and being a bit clearer with what he thinks things actually mean then he's not going any higher on my list. Infii: + Show Spoiler + Hasn't posted much at all, he promised a big post today, and based on that he'll either go up in the list or stay here, I'll probably make my decision on whether he feels like a valid day 1 lynch or not based off that. Chairman ray: + Show Spoiler + Said he was working on his scum reads but hasn't mentioned *anyone* except holyflare and umasi, where are you reads? Also jumped really hard on Lord Velocity, I know I did too but I've explained my reasoning, and I'm curious what Ray's is. Hasn't really done anything except say things about holyflare and umasi, who aren't really relevant (imo) with regards to the day1 lynch, and has shown no signs of changing, He's probably the non afk player I would be most willing to lynch at this point. Pharcyd3: + Show Spoiler + afk-ed, probably gonna get mod killed myrzeth: + Show Spoiler + claims he's been active but hasn't posted shit. That means he's read all our posts saying he needs to come out and hasn't done anything. This isn't a game where everyone does their own thing in a corner, it's a game where town has to work together, not sure if he's really bad town, creative mafia, or trolling but he's my current #1 lynch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blurry also said that he was putting the pressure on LV on the backburner: So, why was he killed? There can only be one possible reason. His 'towny' like nature to Umasi, heavenz and killerdog, combined with this post: Therefore, some, if not all of the scum, are in fact ON the bandwagon. This means that; LoneMeow, myRZeth, Umasi, killerdog should be our preferred targets for the lynch today (I know I said people off it but this makes the most sense). In this list I'm also going to add Lord Velocity, the reason being that he has put blurry and bereft together throught the entire game, he has made them look like buddy's and then when the scum killed off blurry velocity has even harder pushed the idea that bereft is scum. This makes him look incredibly scummy to me. Examples are: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 09:47 Lord Velocity wrote: Umasi to me is more on the town side of things and Holy in the middle. Bereft on the more scummy parts of things with Blurry neutral.I haven't heard much else from them since so I think it's safe to think about lynching either Myrz, or Pharcyd, because I don't know how the mod killing thing REALLY works. But yea unless they respond I'm pretty sure they're safe lynches. On September 05 2013 13:55 Lord Velocity wrote: One more thing, I'm sorry if this is quite contradicting to the "Deflect suspicion" thing but I've noticed that Bereft has backed up Blurry with utter confidence and Vice Versa. Now I will go to bed, See you all in the morning On September 05 2013 22:56 Lord Velocity wrote: Okay so I have to rush this a littlebit? I have to go to school and won'tbe here for the end of the night. So I would like to say that my read on Umasi I think was posted, but if not it's the same to Killers a little, they both provided major information leading us in the right direction on others, Holy still stands neutral as I said, I'm a little sketchy onBlurry andBereft because they come in, disregard everything said, and focus on everything that's happened like 5(or like 8) pages ago and don't bother trying to clear their names on some peoples list, as they have also got some sort of "Blurry said something, he's right." Or vice versa with bereft. But I won't be around to the end of the lynching phase so I'm sorry. I also do'nt think I'm a smart vote as I have 2 right now, so I think that might stay the same,but I will be voting for Bereft or Heavenz. Thank you, see you all later. On September 05 2013 22:58 Lord Velocity wrote: ##Vote: Bereft What compounds the LV suspicion is his post today He's speculating that people got rid of blurry to frame bereft, or to put more suspicion on bereft because of his argument. The only one to have these suspicions is LV himself, in fact that's all he's been talking about all game, so why not make a post that also defends himself in the process? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Either way, I want people to do the following things; 1) Make reads/analysis/scum tells on the following : Umasi, killerdog, lonemeow, myRZeth and Lord Velocity. I'm specifically looking at Umasi and killerdog because of their associations with Blurry being "strong town reads" to themselves. 2) Come up with other theories, I don't mind, not saying this is the only one by any means. 3)DO SOMETHING. Conclusion I know it's risky for scum to actually start a bandwagon like holy did, but given the fact that his initial case against ray was weak (which other people thought as well) I can't read any other intention out of it. His defensive posts regarding my analysis of said case reminded me of Umasi's early aggression style. He mostly tried to "counter-attack" me instead of explaining or clarifying, which entangles the discussion really quickly. Still strong scum read from him. LoneMeow + Show Spoiler + First thing that stands out to me: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 03:38 LoneMeow wrote: If he never says anything, that's modkill territory and lynching him is pointless. If he does come up at the last moment just to drop his vote to avoid modkill, he'll die D2. Lynching a zero-post guy is pointless. Much rather lynch someone who's clearly in the game but lurking, because that's where scum is most often found. On September 06 2013 05:33 LoneMeow wrote: I don't think myRZeth is a good lynch candidate unless we want to policy lynch for playing like a prick. Trying to read alignment from his "strategy" brings just WIFOM. Sadly, because I really do want to punish for playing like that. I'm also not sure I'd want to lynch Lord Velocity either, while he does seem somewhat scummy the fact that no one seems to be opposed to lynching him makes me wonder if he's just mislynch bait. (Yay, pre-flip associations... But I still do really feel that way, for now.) More in a bit, typing one handed is painfully slow... Those two statements are pretty contradictory. Before myrzeth said anything, lurker were a better target than modkills. After myrzeth confirmed himself to be a lurker, we shouldn't lynch him because his alignment is WIFOM. His vote post on ray + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 05:53 LoneMeow wrote: As to my top lynch candidate right now, I think I'd want to go for Chairman Ray: His early posts are reasonable, but he seems to be carefully avoiding taking sides and never really calls anyone scum (besides a 0-poster...) before jumping on Lord Velocity for that ridiculous edit mishap. I can easily see scum motivation for wanting not to implicate anyone until an easy target shows up to jump on. I could also consider Infii, but his "big post" does bring up some decent points that would have to be considered. ##Vote: Chairman Ray Also after the lynch: + Show Spoiler + On September 07 2013 17:57 LoneMeow wrote: PSA: Please quote when you reply to someone, it makes filters so much easier to read. I think there probably was one scum on Chairman Ray wagon. I also think HolyFlare isn't scum, so obviously my suspicions are on: Umasi, killerdog and myRZeth. myRZeth's unexplained vote switch makes him look really suspect, but then again, it's hard to believe the other scum wouldn't be screaming at him to play better... It's of course possible he's just ignoring advice, too. I hoped he'd be vigged so we wouldn't have to decide what to do with him. Umasi's early game looked okay, but his reads have been jumping around pretty wildly, I'm not familiar enough with his style to know if that's just paranoid town or scum looking for targets. killerdog is to me the least scummy of this bunch, he's been mostly making posts with reasonable content and sound logic. Speculating on NK reasons is pure WIFOM. It can be useful if you have other information to complement it, but in itself it's very unsafe to use. Why exactly, besides the NK, do you see Bereft as scum? I read through his filter and it comes pretty null to me, not the towniest player by any means but doesn't scream scum either. The interaction between him and Blurry was a little weird, but agreeing with someone isn't necessarily scummy as such. He suspects everyone on the bandwagon except holy but doesn't say why. I could only find a very early town read on holy from his filter here + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 15:56 LoneMeow wrote: My feel is that the Holyflare/Umasi argument is town on town, in my experience all huge D1 fights have been that way. I'm extremely interested in hearing from Pharcyd3 who has definitely been here but only posted a worthless oneliner and Lord Velocity who has posted but seems to be low on actual content. Umasi, if you completely forget HolyFlare for a moment, who would you prefer to lynch right now? Conclusion He gave almost no reads in the entire game except for his post after lynch where he leaves holy out for an unknown reason. Instead he just asked other people for their oppinion/read but stayed neutral himself. Based on this and the 2 inconsistencies above he looks scummy to me, though he can clear himself a bit with reasonable argumentation. I skipped LV because he needs to get replaced and even if we think he is supicious, he wouldn't be able to defend himself. As for todays lynch, I would be willing to lynch Umasi, Holyflare, LoneMeow or Myrzeth, with Myrzeth still being my first target. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
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infii
Germany153 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Town so lucky for getting me. | ||
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infii
Germany153 Posts
Well since there are no opinions flooding in, I ##vote myrzeth until convinced otherwise. Will be here until deadline. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Read the thread. Try to find a townread. Sheep him. Lynch scum. ezpz. | ||
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Umasi
United States1399 Posts
Bereft does tunnel LV pretty hard though (which I can read as town or scum (STARES AT ONEGU IF HE'S READING)) Killerdog I've taken as 'pretty townie all game, and am not really sure why'. regarding me, though, your last line of justification is 'he's experienced to not fuck up as town' I don't care if you think I'm good or not, I want to know how that was a fuck up and why you think it was. also hihi koshi | ||
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infii
Germany153 Posts
On September 09 2013 04:02 Umasi wrote: Do you have a response to the way Holyflare defended himself? (or did I miss it somewhere). Your thoughts on Lonemeow pretty much mirror my own, and I would lynch either of you two. I'm not sure I agree on heavenz, but you and lonemeow are better to lynch anyway (or myrz, but...shitty lurkers :<< Bereft does tunnel LV pretty hard though (which I can read as town or scum (STARES AT ONEGU IF HE'S READING)) Killerdog I've taken as 'pretty townie all game, and am not really sure why'. regarding me, though, your last line of justification is 'he's experienced to not fuck up as town' I don't care if you think I'm good or not, I want to know how that was a fuck up and why you think it was. also hihi koshi Do you mean this? + Show Spoiler + On September 08 2013 10:09 Holyflare wrote: They also aren't the only posts regarding ray and myrz in the thread, I purposefuly left some out to see if you picked up on it, which you did not because YOU DID NOT READ THEM. You are making a case out of thin air. Even your post just now didn't make sense? You target me because I made a 'weak' case against ray yet there are 4 other people on the ray bandwagon that did not vote at all until I said anything about ray. They are far far more scummy than me. If some people thought ray was town then why did they not try and counter bandwagon at all? In fact, there was a whole fucking hour where nobody implied anything about a counter bandwagon. and then an entire hour after I made my case and voted: If anyone is suspicious it's the people who joined the wagon this late and if they were town they would be even MORE suspicious of the people that voted after this on someone else: oh wait yeh that's you, saw the confirmed town bandwagon lynch so you leave it to the last 20 mins to lynch the lurker so it looks like you had nothing to do with it right? it looked scummy but oh fuck why not make a case against the guy that found him to be scummy in the first place yeh, right..... blame the person that makes cases not the people that sit idly by (you and the others) who don't make reasonable cases to begin with No I did refrain from answering to any more defenses of him, because this could just go on and on with no real result and I had to go to bed. If you mean the specific way he defended himself, you can find that in my last analysis. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Umasi
United States1399 Posts
:| no real words. I agree with some reads, disagree with others, but your disregarding of facts is just downright scummy. and we need to actually lynch someone, I think it should be infii. I'm on the same boat as flare, we need to lynch scum reads, not lurkers, not necessarily because it'll be milo/lylo, but because lurkers aren't actively trying to confuse town | ||
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