EPTOn September 05 2013 18:57 Torte de Lini wrote:
Yeah, he doesn't read that much
Yeah, he doesn't read that much
... Comming with that sort of strawmen, usually rip you 100% of credibility.
The Other Gaming Gender (Armchair Athleticism) - Page 14
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cloneThorN
Denmark302 Posts
... Comming with that sort of strawmen, usually rip you 100% of credibility. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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cloneThorN
Denmark302 Posts
Just read it now(get to the point quicker dammit, no one but me and tor di is gonna read that wall). I did agree with it, however theres also some risc in it: A: Getting female gamers into sc2 via female only tournaments could create a split between the genders in sc2, like in physical sports. B: Female only tournament could potientially be dominated by as few as 4-5 players as they scene will be new. C. Reinforce the idea that games are for men, seing as we needed to create an effin female league in a game, for women to be able to compete even at the lowest level. | ||
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cloneThorN
Denmark302 Posts
On September 05 2013 19:18 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm not too worried about perception of people or the classifications of people to be honest. You don't care about perception, but you wanna change how women percive gaming? You are arguing against yourself... Also classifications are nessecary tools to be able to communicate effeciently :O EDIT: Also, it's bullshit that you don't care about how people percive you. It's part of human nature to compare oneself with others, and our social society greatly enhances that need. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
specifically | ||
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Chinnro
Australia47 Posts
This will never change and this is why we as spectators and fans will find it difficult to support an inferior level of competition. I want more women playing too, but creating a 4th tier of competition would be counterproductive. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
Just read it now(get to the point quicker dammit, no one but me and tor di is gonna read that wall). I did agree with it, however theres also some risc in it: A: Getting female gamers into sc2 via female only tournaments could create a split between the genders in sc2, like in physical sports. B: Female only tournament could potientially be dominated by as few as 4-5 players as they scene will be new. C. Reinforce the idea that games are for men, seing as we needed to create an effin female league in a game, for women to be able to compete even at the lowest level. You don't care about perception, but you wanna change how women percive gaming? You are arguing against yourself... I read the wall. Regarding point A---it's interesting that many people assume there isn't already a "split" between genders in gaming. While it is possible to mask one's gender in gaming, does that really mean we can get rid of gender distinctions altogether? Gaming doesn't exist in a vacuum---it exists in a world in which gender divisions still run deep. Right now, we can see the influence of gender divisions in the fact that the player pool for female players is much smaller. There are also far fewer females entering tournaments. Creating a female-only league would ease the external social barriers---many of which exist outside of gaming itself---that reduce the female player pool. Regarding point C---again, it's interesting that many people assume that these perceptions don't already exist. the idea that "games are for men"---let's consider that for a moment. Why is the female player pool so small? Again, it's helpful to look outside of gaming itself, because gaming does not exist apart from the rest of society. There are no physical barriers to female participation---no one is stopping women from buying the game---so something else is going on. All of the arguments that people raise about why women don't participate---physicality, men enjoy the competition more, women are more interested in other things, and so on---reinforce the deeper idea that, in one way or another, "games are for men." But creating a female-only league subverts this idea by encouraging women to play games competitively. Two different meanings of perception, like Torte said. So his statement isn't inconsistent. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I was going to do females in esports in general, but god... | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I'm of the opinion, unless proven otherwise, that women can physically and intellectually do the same shit in gaming men do. So, acknowledging women as a minority in competitive gaming, I think they are the same as any other minority. In SC2, I think black people are a minority (which certainly seems to be the case for TL in recent poll), so why don't we organize tournaments for black people? Edit: typo | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On September 06 2013 00:38 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what shouldn't we have tournaments for black people? I'm of the opinion, unless proven otherwise, that women can physically and intellectually do the same shit in gaming men do. So, acknowledging women as a minority in competitive gaming, I think they are the same as any other minority. In SC2, I think black people are a minority (which certainly seems to be the case for TL in recent poll), so why don't we organize tournaments for black people? We could if we wanted to. Same thing with homosexuals, though I think in terms of interest; gaming is more of a gender and age interest than ethnic background. Can't confirm though | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I don't really agree with the article, but it's well written. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 06 2013 00:38 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what shouldn't we have tournaments for black people? I'm of the opinion, unless proven otherwise, that women can physically and intellectually do the same shit in gaming men do. So, acknowledging women as a minority in competitive gaming, I think they are the same as any other minority. In SC2, I think black people are a minority (which certainly seems to be the case for TL in recent poll), so why don't we organize tournaments for black people? In the vast majority physical competitions, we accept that men and women have different physical features that can put them at an advantage or disadvantage in a specific event. They don’t attempt to justify the division, because exceptions can always be found. Competitive gaming is the same way and some events are gender specific. Before we get upset there are events that are only for women in Esports, we need to go talk to the Olympics about women’s table tennis and badminton. I am sure if I dug around I could find five other sports were it would seem that gender would not affect competition too. And I am sure we could all come up with reasons why those events should be separated by gender too and they would be reasonable. Gender specific events are nothing new for any physical competitions and Esports really isn't any different. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On September 06 2013 00:38 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but why shouldn't we have tournaments for black people? I'm of the opinion, unless proven otherwise, that women can physically and intellectually do the same shit in gaming men do. So, acknowledging women as a minority in competitive gaming, I think they are the same as any other minority. In SC2, I think black people are a minority (which certainly seems to be the case for TL in recent poll), so why don't we organize tournaments for black people? Edit: typo Because there's no apparent interest in a tournament for black people. WE are not organizing tournaments for anybody. There is no central authority that determines what kind of tournaments are being run and who gets to play in them. People and organizations do what they like and what they think there's a sufficient degree of interest for. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I know it was just an example and that you could probably indeed find some non-mixed sport where I have trouble pulling out arguments from the web like that, but I don't think we should do it that way in "e-sports" because traditional sports do it this way. On September 06 2013 00:59 Talin wrote: Because there's no apparent interest in a tournament for black people. Well tell that to OP, not to me. There is a whole paragraph in his post that basically says that we should be more interested in the competitive women scene than we are now. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 06 2013 01:08 ZenithM wrote: It isn't obvious to me that gender doesn't affect performance in table tennis or badminton (though apparently badminton mixed doubles is an olympic sport). For example, the fastest serve and smashes recorded for men in badminton are way faster than those for women. I know it was just an example and that you could probably indeed find some non-mixed sport where I have trouble pulling out arguments from the web like that, but I don't think we should do it that way in "e-sports" because traditional sports do it this way. Well tell that to OP, not to me. There is a whole paragraph in his post that basically says that we should be more interested in the competitive women scene than we are now. There could be gender performance differences in both table tennis or badminton, but I am sure we could find conflicting evidence for both sides of the argument. Standard table pool has male and female competitions as well, though I couldn't tell you why(maybe because men are naturally taller and reach can be big advantage in pool), but who cares? If we really dig deep, we can find a ton of sports that have gender specific competitions that don't make a huge amount of sense. The point is that trying to rationalize through science or some form of medical evidence is sort of a fools errand, since people will just turn around and provide their own cherry picked evidence. The fact is that having more women involved with the scene would be dope. It would increase the market share of the game, help deal with that pesky sexism issue that keeps cropping up(its everywhere, but we can only deal with Esports in general), and make everything better. Because, it is a little known fact in the game world, that girls make everything better. And if a few gender specific competitions every year are what is needed to get the ball rolling, it is worth it. Some of the matches might look like season 1 GSL, but that isn't a huge deal. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but why shouldn't we have tournaments for black people? I'm of the opinion, unless proven otherwise, that women can physically and intellectually do the same shit in gaming men do. So, acknowledging women as a minority in competitive gaming, I think they are the same as any other minority. In SC2, I think black people are a minority (which certainly seems to be the case for TL in recent poll), so why don't we organize tournaments for black people? Edit: typo Seems like a good question to me. I guess the tricky point for me is that gender and race, while both traits that mark difference, are not really the same thing. So the reasons fewer women play SC2 are not the same as the reasons fewer black people, male and female, play SC2. It can get kind of complicated, but basically the social context is very different. It isn't obvious to me that gender doesn't affect performance in table tennis or badminton (though apparently badminton mixed doubles is an olympic sport). For example, the fastest serve and smashes recorded for men in badminton are way faster than those for women. I know it was just an example and that you could probably indeed find some non-mixed sport where I have trouble pulling out arguments from the web like that, but I don't think we should do it that way in "e-sports" because traditional sports do it this way. I myself don't know if female-only leagues are the best way to open gaming up to women. But I do agree that they may help subvert the masculine, male-dominated environment that has emerged around gaming. Sometimes it can be hard to observe just how male/masculine-oriented gaming culture is, especially if you're a man. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On September 06 2013 00:46 ZenithM wrote: Oh god I'm TL rusty. I don't really agree with the article, but it's well written. I respect your opinion and thank you for the compliment | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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