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hz in general is not making sense to me right now.
If he thinks this constitutes a real lynch defense of a wagon subject, he's dreaming:
On June 27 2013 03:15 hzflank wrote:If you think I was not trying to prevent the lynch then you have not read the thread. I tried, and you stopped me. Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 08:26 FirmTofu wrote:On June 26 2013 08:17 hzflank wrote:
I will try another angle:
LoneMeow was the first to vote on Xzavier. I think that LoneMeow is town. He has never looked scummy to me and he thought that Xzavier was scum for the start. It makes sense that LoneMeow would be the first to vote on Xzavier.
Next to add their vote was Chromatically. Despite my earlier attack, Chrom has been looking more and more town to me. The only reason that I can see a scum Chrom voting Xzavier when he did is if Aqua is also scum, and everyone thought that idea was ridiculous. Therefore, I expect most of you see Chrom as town and the first two people on the wagon as town.
Aqua was the third to vote. Most of you think Aqua is town. That means most of you must think that the first 3 people on the wagon are town.
Is that not odd to anyone? If three townies jump on a scum wagon then there should of been a counter play by the scum team by now. And yet I started the Aqua wagon and I am posting this. It does not make sense. There was a counter play! The scum saw that you had already started a vote on Aqua and used that as an opportunity to draw attention away from Xzavier. While I strongly believe you are town because you were the one to start the lynch with some pretty good analysis, I do not believe that the other people pursuing the Aqua wagon are free from blame. The fact that they jumped on Aqua right after Xzavier's bandwagon was gaining momentum is indicative of this fact.
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hzflank, you keep repeating that someone on the wagon must be scum. Why do you believe that is the case? Does it necessarily have to be true, or do you think you are assuming it should be true because Xzavier flipped town?
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On June 27 2013 03:16 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:54 hzflank wrote:On June 26 2013 06:36 Chromatically wrote:
It helps that I have a town read on everyone on the Xzav wagon, so I really don't think that scum is pushing this wagon at all. I'd be surprised if there are no scum at all on a town wagon. Before the flip you suspected Onegu for the reasoning behind his voting. While the flip does not change his reasoning, I expected it to cause you to reconsider more. Although Meow was the first to vote for Xzavier, with the way it happened I consider you to be the starter of the Xzavier wagon. Therefore, your insight into the votes that your wagon gathered will be very useful. There is no rush, we have 48 hours, but I was just surprised that you started with Onegu and Spicy. I don't know where you're going with these. Not caring about the lynch looks bad no matter what the flip is, that's what I said before the flip. Now that we know both wagons were likely town, there is clear scum motivation to not vote for either. I've stated my reasoning about why Aqua and Spicy look bad, do you disagree?
Did anyone actually care about the lynch? Sure, you and Tofo pushed hard to get people onboard when it was tight between Xz and Aqua but as soon as Xz was highly likely to be lynched everyone stopped caring. People who were not on the wagon jumped on. People who were on the wagon discussed moving there vote.
Not to mention that we currently have a better chance working out which passenger was scum than we do of working out which non-passenger was scum. Your case on Onegu is severely hampered by all the other talk about Onegu being scummy. If you were scum, which you very well might be, then the obvious move was to pressure Onegu once Xz flipped green. There was loads of preparation done for this move pre-flip, when most of us did not even know that xZ would flip green.
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On June 27 2013 03:24 FirmTofu wrote:
hzflank, you keep repeating that someone on the wagon must be scum. Why do you believe that is the case? Does it necessarily have to be true, or do you think you are assuming it should be true because Xzavier flipped town?
Because if everyone on the Xzavier wagon was town, then the mafia team is Onegu, Spicy and Stim.
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On June 27 2013 03:18 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:04 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 27 2013 02:59 Onegu wrote:
I had no qualms about voteing aqua and was planning on voteing him today until the firmtofu case came up. As I said it didnt matter to me who was killed because I had a scum read on Aqua and a null read on xzavier but depending on how he fliped would focus my day 2 targets, I have said all along I want to lynch Aqua and still do. I cannot make a good case on him but I am trying and keep looking things over. But saying I didnt vote him because I am scum buddies is dumb, If not tofu today and it is between anyone and aqua my vote will go on aqua. But at this point firmtofu I can make a much stronger case on him. I don't think you're scumbuddies. I think Aqua is town. I'm confused by your actions. If I saw two wagons forming, one on a Townie and one on someone I thought was Scum, I'd get on that Scum bandwagon no matter what it looked like to make sure the right man dies. I can say this with confidence because it's exactly what I did. If you were town, that's the behavior I'd expect. I could see how maybe if you thought both xzavier and aqua were town or both were scum you could justify your apathy. But having different reads on the two main wagons, and just letting them roll by you baffles me. In a bad way. I only had slightly different reads it would not have supprised me if xzavier flipped scum, and it didnt suprise me he flipped town. That being said if I had a town read on him what you say is correct and I would have put my vote back on aqua. As it was I put my vote on my best case made a good case for him and when I was going to sleep 8 hours before the deadline it didnt matter much to me who was killed, and it was also possible people would have read my arguement and voted alakaslam also. The problem where I stay is I am usally not up for the deadline so I have to make a vote and decision well in advance of everyone else.
This part still doesn't make sense.
If you have to place your vote ahead of time, then you can't push your preferred wagon at all. There was a near 0% chance that Alaka gets lynched as you sleep.
The only move that makes sense if you can't be around for deadline is to put your vote on the wagon who is scummiest. Even now, you think that Aqua is really scummy. Why didn't you put your vote on him?
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On June 27 2013 03:25 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:24 FirmTofu wrote:
hzflank, you keep repeating that someone on the wagon must be scum. Why do you believe that is the case? Does it necessarily have to be true, or do you think you are assuming it should be true because Xzavier flipped town? Because if everyone on the Xzavier wagon was town, then the mafia team is Onegu, Spicy and Stim.
Well, I don't think he was referring to the last few tag along votes. I think he means one of the first few votes must be scum.
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On June 27 2013 03:18 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:15 hzflank wrote:If you think I was not trying to prevent the lynch then you have not read the thread. I tried, and you stopped me. On June 26 2013 08:26 FirmTofu wrote:On June 26 2013 08:17 hzflank wrote:
I will try another angle:
LoneMeow was the first to vote on Xzavier. I think that LoneMeow is town. He has never looked scummy to me and he thought that Xzavier was scum for the start. It makes sense that LoneMeow would be the first to vote on Xzavier.
Next to add their vote was Chromatically. Despite my earlier attack, Chrom has been looking more and more town to me. The only reason that I can see a scum Chrom voting Xzavier when he did is if Aqua is also scum, and everyone thought that idea was ridiculous. Therefore, I expect most of you see Chrom as town and the first two people on the wagon as town.
Aqua was the third to vote. Most of you think Aqua is town. That means most of you must think that the first 3 people on the wagon are town.
Is that not odd to anyone? If three townies jump on a scum wagon then there should of been a counter play by the scum team by now. And yet I started the Aqua wagon and I am posting this. It does not make sense. There was a counter play! The scum saw that you had already started a vote on Aqua and used that as an opportunity to draw attention away from Xzavier. While I strongly believe you are town because you were the one to start the lynch with some pretty good analysis, I do not believe that the other people pursuing the Aqua wagon are free from blame. The fact that they jumped on Aqua right after Xzavier's bandwagon was gaining momentum is indicative of this fact. Yes, you did try. I wasn't being fair when I added you to the list. I don't think you are scum, but you supporting Onegu's weak case against me was making me reconsider. Anyway, you haven't addressed the core reasoning, so I take it that you agree?
My claim against you isnt weak and you havent addressed any of my points. In addition to that you lied in this game and did not come forward with your plan until you were called out on it. Your lieing not only decieved someone you didnt tell them what happend after you got what you wanted until someone caught you in a lie. you are useing very scummy tactics in lieing and bullying and think that is a perfectly normal town thing to do, it isnt it is a scum tactic.
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On June 27 2013 03:25 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:16 Chromatically wrote:On June 27 2013 01:54 hzflank wrote:On June 26 2013 06:36 Chromatically wrote:
It helps that I have a town read on everyone on the Xzav wagon, so I really don't think that scum is pushing this wagon at all. I'd be surprised if there are no scum at all on a town wagon. Before the flip you suspected Onegu for the reasoning behind his voting. While the flip does not change his reasoning, I expected it to cause you to reconsider more. Although Meow was the first to vote for Xzavier, with the way it happened I consider you to be the starter of the Xzavier wagon. Therefore, your insight into the votes that your wagon gathered will be very useful. There is no rush, we have 48 hours, but I was just surprised that you started with Onegu and Spicy. I don't know where you're going with these. Not caring about the lynch looks bad no matter what the flip is, that's what I said before the flip. Now that we know both wagons were likely town, there is clear scum motivation to not vote for either. I've stated my reasoning about why Aqua and Spicy look bad, do you disagree? Did anyone actually care about the lynch? Sure, you and Tofo pushed hard to get people onboard when it was tight between Xz and Aqua but as soon as Xz was highly likely to be lynched everyone stopped caring. People who were not on the wagon jumped on. People who were on the wagon discussed moving there vote. Not to mention that we currently have a better chance working out which passenger was scum than we do of working out which non-passenger was scum. Your case on Onegu is severely hampered by all the other talk about Onegu being scummy. If you were scum, which you very well might be, then the obvious move was to pressure Onegu once Xz flipped green. There was loads of preparation done for this move pre-flip, when most of us did not even know that xZ would flip green.
On June 27 2013 03:25 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:24 FirmTofu wrote:
hzflank, you keep repeating that someone on the wagon must be scum. Why do you believe that is the case? Does it necessarily have to be true, or do you think you are assuming it should be true because Xzavier flipped town? Because if everyone on the Xzavier wagon was town, then the mafia team is Onegu, Spicy and Stim.
What are both of you talking about?
We don't know whether there was 0, 1, 2, 3 scum on the wagon. For all I know, the team could be Onegu/Spicy/Stim. The full team doesn't matter now anyway.
hz, I have no idea what you mean by the bold. There are a lot of good reasons why Onegu is scummy.
We're still just trying to find scum. I'm looking at who looks worst from the flip. I'm not going to ignore people off the wagon because you think, for some reason, that they're less likely to be scum.
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On June 27 2013 03:27 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:25 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 27 2013 03:24 FirmTofu wrote:
hzflank, you keep repeating that someone on the wagon must be scum. Why do you believe that is the case? Does it necessarily have to be true, or do you think you are assuming it should be true because Xzavier flipped town? Because if everyone on the Xzavier wagon was town, then the mafia team is Onegu, Spicy and Stim. Well, I don't think he was referring to the last few tag along votes. I think he means one of the first few votes must be scum.
First few? Let's try to be as specific as possible. I hate treating individuals under suspicion as a collective. Hz suspects one or more of the following people is Scum:
LoneMeow, Chromatically, Aquanim, FirmTofu, Hurricane Sponge.
(After my vote, and Onegu's declaration that he will not be moving his off Alakaslam, the wagon reached maximum velocity)
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I wish Onegu had better reasoning for his vote apathy. If he's town, that's a stupid stupid stupid play. (Much like Xzavier's town play was really really stupid.) I went through Onegu's filter last night and he's generally town, but a townie's one power is their vote, and this play is really bad. I'm trying to separate myself from bias because he keeps making cases on people I think are town.
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On June 27 2013 02:54 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:36 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 02:14 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:On June 27 2013 01:31 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 01:23 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy, I think that Tofu's actions around the lynch were fine.
He thought that you were scummier, but after pushing you he saw that no one else was willing to vote you.
Instead of wasting his vote on someone who wouldn't be lynched (you), he moves to his second-best scumread (Xzav). please look at what i wrote again. It is clear he said his second best read was stim On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes. He then does nothing with trying to get stim lynched and just sheeps onto xzavier. Oh yeah, that's a good point that I missed. Just a few posts later he says: + Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 02:01 FirmTofu wrote:
Even now, it is still possible that Xzavier lives because we only have 5 votes. We should try convincing hzflank or Alakaslam to switch their votes.
As I suspect the Mafia team is as follows...
Xzavier
SpicyDinosaur
Onegu
They are trying not to make it obvious that they want to keep Xzavier alive. You can see how they are frantically looking for other scapegoats to shift attention off of Xzavier, but don't have much of a case.
Furthermore, my preliminary assessment of Alakaslam speaks to an SK mindset. I will go into further detail when it becomes applicable on Day 2. Stim isn't even in his proposed scumteam. Tofu, can you clarify this situation? Ah, of course. What happened was that I wanted Hurricane to switch his vote from StiM to Xzavier so that Aqua(who i had a stong town read on) wouldn't die. I was also very wary of StiM regardless because he was lurking hardcore. To win Hurricane over to our side, I got on his level. Obviously, I wasn't bein completely honest when I said StiM was the best lynch, but I knew that Aqua couldn't be allowed to die and this was my tactic to save him. So you admit you are a liar. Scummy as hell. Lying is definitely not a scum tell. Read the mafia guide by Ver. Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 13:08 Ver wrote:
Also, this is a good point to address the misconception that 'lying=mafia,' which is clearly not the case. I lie all the time as town, and much more rarely as mafia. Some may condemn this as inferior play, but lying, among other 'anti-town plays,' lets you open new routes of play that are ordinarily inaccessible if you behave as a 'perfect townie.' Most of the time you have to take a risk if you want to win. Of course the execution is everything, as lying for no gain is just going to make it harder for the town to do anything. And of course, many town players will lie on accident, without reason, or for some bizarre reason or another that you have no way of knowing. A point that will be emphasized continuously is the necessity to differentiate between mafia and bad townie play. You can't just lynch people and when they pop green excuse yourself by saying 'oh they were anti-town anyways.' The goal is to kill mafia, period.
Its a scum tell in this situation. Why would you need to lie in order to secure their votes? there were already cases against xzavier that you decided not to push. Instead u had to make up lies to get people over. Why was is it so important to lie to lynch Xzavier if his lynch was such a sure thing? You pushed hard for his lynch in a very deceitful way.
Also given the fact that you are refusing to look at people who actually voted to to kill xzavier means u dont want people to look at you. You talk so much now how it was obvious that xzavier was going to be lynched, yet there was a time the vote was 3-3, and then later 4-4. Not at all clear cut. But you keep deflecting away from yourself at every possible turn.
You have yet to comment on how bad your logic was with xzavier and I being scum buddies and your overall play during the lynching period.
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My problem is that Chromatically, Tofu and Hurricane have not pressured each other since the flip. The flip made you all look guilty for different reasons. I expected you to defend yourselves by investigating each other. You are better placed to investigate each other than I am, because you know if you are town.
The best way for the town to get a correct read on which of you is scum (if any) is if you look for guilt in each other.
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On June 27 2013 03:29 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:18 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 03:15 hzflank wrote:If you think I was not trying to prevent the lynch then you have not read the thread. I tried, and you stopped me. On June 26 2013 08:26 FirmTofu wrote:On June 26 2013 08:17 hzflank wrote:
I will try another angle:
LoneMeow was the first to vote on Xzavier. I think that LoneMeow is town. He has never looked scummy to me and he thought that Xzavier was scum for the start. It makes sense that LoneMeow would be the first to vote on Xzavier.
Next to add their vote was Chromatically. Despite my earlier attack, Chrom has been looking more and more town to me. The only reason that I can see a scum Chrom voting Xzavier when he did is if Aqua is also scum, and everyone thought that idea was ridiculous. Therefore, I expect most of you see Chrom as town and the first two people on the wagon as town.
Aqua was the third to vote. Most of you think Aqua is town. That means most of you must think that the first 3 people on the wagon are town.
Is that not odd to anyone? If three townies jump on a scum wagon then there should of been a counter play by the scum team by now. And yet I started the Aqua wagon and I am posting this. It does not make sense. There was a counter play! The scum saw that you had already started a vote on Aqua and used that as an opportunity to draw attention away from Xzavier. While I strongly believe you are town because you were the one to start the lynch with some pretty good analysis, I do not believe that the other people pursuing the Aqua wagon are free from blame. The fact that they jumped on Aqua right after Xzavier's bandwagon was gaining momentum is indicative of this fact. Yes, you did try. I wasn't being fair when I added you to the list. I don't think you are scum, but you supporting Onegu's weak case against me was making me reconsider. Anyway, you haven't addressed the core reasoning, so I take it that you agree? My claim against you isnt weak and you havent addressed any of my points. In addition to that you lied in this game and did not come forward with your plan until you were called out on it. Your lieing not only decieved someone you didnt tell them what happend after you got what you wanted until someone caught you in a lie. you are useing very scummy tactics in lieing and bullying and think that is a perfectly normal town thing to do, it isnt it is a scum tactic.
I'm making a huge post, but I keep checking the thread to address any new developments. I will post my reaction to your accusations against me as soon as I am finished.
You say my lying deceived someone, but I fail to see how this hurt town. All my lying did was keep Aqua from dying. If the person I deceived is clearly okay with the fact that I deceived him, I don't see how this is even an issue. You keep saying I am doing scummy things, but are not providing any evidence to support your claims.
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Also everyone please look at what i wrote about tofu and give me your opnions on it. Its on page 38, below the picture. 2 parts to it because of bad editing.
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On June 27 2013 03:40 hzflank wrote:
My problem is that Chromatically, Tofu and Hurricane have not pressured each other since the flip. The flip made you all look guilty for different reasons. I expected you to defend yourselves by investigating each other. You are better placed to investigate each other than I am, because you know if you are town.
The best way for the town to get a correct read on which of you is scum (if any) is if you look for guilt in each other.
Why don't you explain how the flip made each of us look bad?
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On June 27 2013 03:40 Spicydinosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:54 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 02:36 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 02:14 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:On June 27 2013 01:31 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 01:23 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy, I think that Tofu's actions around the lynch were fine.
He thought that you were scummier, but after pushing you he saw that no one else was willing to vote you.
Instead of wasting his vote on someone who wouldn't be lynched (you), he moves to his second-best scumread (Xzav). please look at what i wrote again. It is clear he said his second best read was stim On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes. He then does nothing with trying to get stim lynched and just sheeps onto xzavier. Oh yeah, that's a good point that I missed. Just a few posts later he says: + Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 02:01 FirmTofu wrote:
Even now, it is still possible that Xzavier lives because we only have 5 votes. We should try convincing hzflank or Alakaslam to switch their votes.
As I suspect the Mafia team is as follows...
Xzavier
SpicyDinosaur
Onegu
They are trying not to make it obvious that they want to keep Xzavier alive. You can see how they are frantically looking for other scapegoats to shift attention off of Xzavier, but don't have much of a case.
Furthermore, my preliminary assessment of Alakaslam speaks to an SK mindset. I will go into further detail when it becomes applicable on Day 2. Stim isn't even in his proposed scumteam. Tofu, can you clarify this situation? Ah, of course. What happened was that I wanted Hurricane to switch his vote from StiM to Xzavier so that Aqua(who i had a stong town read on) wouldn't die. I was also very wary of StiM regardless because he was lurking hardcore. To win Hurricane over to our side, I got on his level. Obviously, I wasn't bein completely honest when I said StiM was the best lynch, but I knew that Aqua couldn't be allowed to die and this was my tactic to save him. So you admit you are a liar. Scummy as hell. Lying is definitely not a scum tell. Read the mafia guide by Ver. On August 26 2010 13:08 Ver wrote:
Also, this is a good point to address the misconception that 'lying=mafia,' which is clearly not the case. I lie all the time as town, and much more rarely as mafia. Some may condemn this as inferior play, but lying, among other 'anti-town plays,' lets you open new routes of play that are ordinarily inaccessible if you behave as a 'perfect townie.' Most of the time you have to take a risk if you want to win. Of course the execution is everything, as lying for no gain is just going to make it harder for the town to do anything. And of course, many town players will lie on accident, without reason, or for some bizarre reason or another that you have no way of knowing. A point that will be emphasized continuously is the necessity to differentiate between mafia and bad townie play. You can't just lynch people and when they pop green excuse yourself by saying 'oh they were anti-town anyways.' The goal is to kill mafia, period.
Its a scum tell in this situation. Why would you need to lie in order to secure their votes? there were already cases against xzavier that you decided not to push. Instead u had to make up lies to get people over. Why was is it so important to lie to lynch Xzavier if his lynch was such a sure thing? You pushed hard for his lynch in a very deceitful way. Also given the fact that you are refusing to look at people who actually voted to to kill xzavier means u dont want people to look at you. You talk so much now how it was obvious that xzavier was going to be lynched, yet there was a time the vote was 3-3, and then later 4-4. Not at all clear cut. But you keep deflecting away from yourself at every possible turn. You have yet to comment on how bad your logic was with xzavier and I being scum buddies and your overall play during the lynching period.
I just explained why I lied. I lied to SAVE Aqua. I didn't really push the lynch, remember I stated it was sub-optimal? My main intent was to keep Aqua alive, not to push for Xzavier's lynch.
I'm not refusing to look at people who voted Xzavier. I've looked at them, and I have strong town reads on all of them. I've already explained all of this.
My logic wasn't bad when I said you and Xzavier were scumbuddies. Xzavier and you were both playing scummy, so I naturally read you both as such. Of course, Xzavier flipped town. That doesn't change the fact that he appeared scummy and my reasoning was sound.
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On June 27 2013 03:43 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:40 hzflank wrote:
My problem is that Chromatically, Tofu and Hurricane have not pressured each other since the flip. The flip made you all look guilty for different reasons. I expected you to defend yourselves by investigating each other. You are better placed to investigate each other than I am, because you know if you are town.
The best way for the town to get a correct read on which of you is scum (if any) is if you look for guilt in each other. Why don't you explain how the flip made each of us look bad?
Why don't you do some scum hunting?
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Sorry that last comment was actually a bit harsh.
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On June 27 2013 03:50 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:43 Chromatically wrote:On June 27 2013 03:40 hzflank wrote:
My problem is that Chromatically, Tofu and Hurricane have not pressured each other since the flip. The flip made you all look guilty for different reasons. I expected you to defend yourselves by investigating each other. You are better placed to investigate each other than I am, because you know if you are town.
The best way for the town to get a correct read on which of you is scum (if any) is if you look for guilt in each other. Why don't you explain how the flip made each of us look bad? Why don't you do some scum hunting?
He is scumhunting. He thinks Onegu is scum, so he's pursuing that read. You on the other hand, are just asking others to do your scumhunting for you.
Please, tell me why any of us(Hurricane, Chroma, Aqua, LoneMeow, and me) have to be scum. I promise I will consider it and I might even change my reads.
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I wanted to give you a chance to look into it yourselves to earn some town cred, but everyone went straight for Onegu, then when that did not get enough support some of you also poked at Spicy.
I don't want to make any sort of case yet, because I want to be sure who the case will be against, if and when I make it. So i dont want to walk you through it.
I wont be on until the end of the night now.
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17698
3708
118
EPT
