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On May 17 2013 01:14 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 01:09 Sharrant wrote:On May 17 2013 01:04 phagga wrote:On May 17 2013 00:58 Sharrant wrote:On May 17 2013 00:37 marvellosity wrote:Sharrant I don't like a lot of your post actually. Further stuff: On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote:
Vivax:
Honestly, the thing that sticks out to me the most about Vivax is his willingness to lynch Oats despite the first hand knowledge he has of Oats doing this as town last game. On the one hand, I could see a townie frustrated with how the game went last time because of Oats, and wanting to punish that behaviour in town while still giving himself a 1/4 chance to hit scum. Or I could see mafia going for what he thinks is an easy mislynch, like last game. You spend a long time talking about Vivax without coming to a conclusion, including this. You give two options but you distinctly don't give a stance on either. Not even a leaning, it's just words for the sake of words. It's bad.
Sentinel:
Sentinel is where my vote would feel safest. His filter just seems off, but not in the "paranoia/jumping at shadows" way that a town player can feel off. He spent so much time defending himself about his weird read early on, but people were asking him questions about it, so he gets a little bit of a pass on that part. The biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter to me, is his dropping of Vivax as a suspect just when everyone else was warming up to his lynch.
Sentinel is your primary scum suspect, but why? What's the justification here? His filter is "off" in an unexplained way, that's useless. He defended himself when he was attacked, that's not a reason either. And as for the biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter - you need to explain very, very clearly to me exactly why what you said makes him mafia. Why does BlazingHand voting Vivax sometime after Sentintel unvoted him make Sentinel mafia?
Ghost:
Ghost, last time we played we were on the same wavelength instantly. That immediately gave me a huge town read on you, this game we're pretty far apart. In the last two games I played, Vivax was a very strong force for town. He established his townieness right away, but didn't just rely on that for credit, he kept playing a consistent game. Half your reasoning for killing Vivax seems to be "This post was kind of scummy", and the other half seems to be "Vivax's town game isn't good enough to belong in this town". Please go and skim his filter in Boardwalk PYP (I think that's the right game).
Again this says very little about ghost, other than insinuating that you find him mafia because you're not on his wavelength this time. Is ghost mafia or not? What's the purpose of all this? Let's nip this in the bud then. Vivax isn't a mafia suspect for me at this point. I do not see in his filter the same things that in the last two games have given me instant strong town reads on him, but their absence is not reason for me to believe he is scum. His thought process about the player movement is something that I had thought of as well, the difference though is his seems more specific to a subset of players. I do not, at this time, have reason to believe Vivax is scum. He is a light town read, the only thing holding him back from being a stronger town read is that his plan focused on the subset of B and J, when it should be applied to everyone. The reason I mentioned Sentinel having defended himself to other people's questions is because I am not sure if I'm reaching on this one. His weird defence of fferyllt does not look like it comes from a townie, it looks like it came from scum. If his defense had been unprompted by questions, I'd be sure he was scum. As it is, I don't really know how I feel about his defense. It was driven by other peoples questions, but he seemed to be content JUST defending himself, rather than answering the questions and pushing a town objective at the same time. I'm not insinuating that Ghost is scum, whether that is how it reads to you or not. I am hoping to have a discussion with him because I do know that we think similarly, but we have had very different experiences with Vivax after the last game we both played with him. I want to be able to determine if we can get on the same page this game, and if we can't whether it's because of differing experiences with the player base or set up, or whether it's because we're of differing alignments. So basically you have no clear read on anyone, and are just naming the 3 guys that have pressure on them anyway, although you don't think anyone is scum? What is this? Who do you want to lynch right now, and why? You don't need to write an essay, I just want at least one name and an explanation for it. Sentinel: His early game unprovoked defense of fferyllt was strange in a way that I do not see coming from a townie. His following start up of the bandwagon on Vivax and then hopping off strikes me as mafia motivated 9 times out of 10 because he had weak reasoning coming off of it, but didn't attempt to dissuade anyone else or comment on their positions about Vivax. Ergo: he wants the lynch to happen, but doesn't want to be on the lynch when it happens. I haven't voted him yet because I still have more time to put into looking through the thread, if I don't find someone I think is more likely to be mafia than him, then he'll get my vote soon enough. This is quite a lot of assumptions from 1 action. So he is your top scumspect because, 1. Odd defense 2. Weak reasoning for hopping off Vivax? Can you elaborate on both points?
His odd defense I think has been gone over fairly solidly by others like Marv. He comes in to defend Ferryllt for seemingly no reason, with very strange logic. "It's someone who is just really over eager to post as town" "It was just a mistake that they posted a fluff post" "They were just so over eager that they forget that they were supposed to say anything in their post". It just read to me as someone trying to pick up a town buddy, but making some critical judgement errors along the way.
2. His reason for voting Vivax in the first place was "you wanted people to move at full speed, moving at full speed means that mafia will know who the weak people are to kill off, you must be mafia" That was his only scum read at the time. Later he just says "Okay, we'll just agree to disagree." and unvotes him.
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On May 17 2013 01:12 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 01:07 marvellosity wrote:
Sharrant, Sentinel voted for Vivax, ghost voted for Vivax, Sentinel unvoted Vivax. That's the timeline as I see it.
Are you seriously suggesting a mafia Sentinel unvoted a player because one other player voted for him? Zepphird also voted for him in that time frame. After seeing Vivax get two quick votes from people that sounded like they were ready to pursue him about it, yes I could see him unvoting and just trying to ride out the day. There were 3 votes on him all within 1 or 2 pages, it certainly looked to me, when I was reading through everything, that votes were going to pile up on Vivax from that point on.
Zephirdd unvoted shortly after voting. When sentinel was unvoting, there was only ghost left on vivax.
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This is true. Thank you for being more observant/diligent than me, phagga.
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On May 17 2013 01:16 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 01:12 Sharrant wrote:On May 17 2013 01:07 marvellosity wrote:
Sharrant, Sentinel voted for Vivax, ghost voted for Vivax, Sentinel unvoted Vivax. That's the timeline as I see it.
Are you seriously suggesting a mafia Sentinel unvoted a player because one other player voted for him? Zepphird also voted for him in that time frame. After seeing Vivax get two quick votes from people that sounded like they were ready to pursue him about it, yes I could see him unvoting and just trying to ride out the day. There were 3 votes on him all within 1 or 2 pages, it certainly looked to me, when I was reading through everything, that votes were going to pile up on Vivax from that point on. you're right, Zeph did. ok, I missed that. *ponders* kinda makes more sense. how do you feel about lynching deconduo?
I certainly wouldn't be sold on a deconduo lynch. He's clearly reading the thread quite closely. He called out Sentinel for how little attention he was giving to the thread (missing some of vivax's posts/questions, quoting the wrong person).
I do like his case on Ghost, I believe you have echoed his sentiments. I'm not sold on his case, as I stated before I would like to speak to Ghost before I think I can divine his alignment with any accuracy, but it is a solid case. Depending on Ghost's answers I could definitely follow him on it.
All in all he seems like someone who is actively engaged in the thread, reading closely, and thinkign critically about the game. I'd wager he's town.
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Ah, I missed the unvote. That does change things. I am much less sure now, thank you for pointing that out.
Phagga, Marv, who would you suggest I look into right now?
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On May 17 2013 01:21 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 01:14 Oatsmaster wrote:On May 17 2013 01:09 Sharrant wrote:On May 17 2013 01:04 phagga wrote:On May 17 2013 00:58 Sharrant wrote:On May 17 2013 00:37 marvellosity wrote:Sharrant I don't like a lot of your post actually. Further stuff: On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote:
Vivax:
Honestly, the thing that sticks out to me the most about Vivax is his willingness to lynch Oats despite the first hand knowledge he has of Oats doing this as town last game. On the one hand, I could see a townie frustrated with how the game went last time because of Oats, and wanting to punish that behaviour in town while still giving himself a 1/4 chance to hit scum. Or I could see mafia going for what he thinks is an easy mislynch, like last game. You spend a long time talking about Vivax without coming to a conclusion, including this. You give two options but you distinctly don't give a stance on either. Not even a leaning, it's just words for the sake of words. It's bad.
Sentinel:
Sentinel is where my vote would feel safest. His filter just seems off, but not in the "paranoia/jumping at shadows" way that a town player can feel off. He spent so much time defending himself about his weird read early on, but people were asking him questions about it, so he gets a little bit of a pass on that part. The biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter to me, is his dropping of Vivax as a suspect just when everyone else was warming up to his lynch.
Sentinel is your primary scum suspect, but why? What's the justification here? His filter is "off" in an unexplained way, that's useless. He defended himself when he was attacked, that's not a reason either. And as for the biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter - you need to explain very, very clearly to me exactly why what you said makes him mafia. Why does BlazingHand voting Vivax sometime after Sentintel unvoted him make Sentinel mafia?
Ghost:
Ghost, last time we played we were on the same wavelength instantly. That immediately gave me a huge town read on you, this game we're pretty far apart. In the last two games I played, Vivax was a very strong force for town. He established his townieness right away, but didn't just rely on that for credit, he kept playing a consistent game. Half your reasoning for killing Vivax seems to be "This post was kind of scummy", and the other half seems to be "Vivax's town game isn't good enough to belong in this town". Please go and skim his filter in Boardwalk PYP (I think that's the right game).
Again this says very little about ghost, other than insinuating that you find him mafia because you're not on his wavelength this time. Is ghost mafia or not? What's the purpose of all this? Let's nip this in the bud then. Vivax isn't a mafia suspect for me at this point. I do not see in his filter the same things that in the last two games have given me instant strong town reads on him, but their absence is not reason for me to believe he is scum. His thought process about the player movement is something that I had thought of as well, the difference though is his seems more specific to a subset of players. I do not, at this time, have reason to believe Vivax is scum. He is a light town read, the only thing holding him back from being a stronger town read is that his plan focused on the subset of B and J, when it should be applied to everyone. The reason I mentioned Sentinel having defended himself to other people's questions is because I am not sure if I'm reaching on this one. His weird defence of fferyllt does not look like it comes from a townie, it looks like it came from scum. If his defense had been unprompted by questions, I'd be sure he was scum. As it is, I don't really know how I feel about his defense. It was driven by other peoples questions, but he seemed to be content JUST defending himself, rather than answering the questions and pushing a town objective at the same time. I'm not insinuating that Ghost is scum, whether that is how it reads to you or not. I am hoping to have a discussion with him because I do know that we think similarly, but we have had very different experiences with Vivax after the last game we both played with him. I want to be able to determine if we can get on the same page this game, and if we can't whether it's because of differing experiences with the player base or set up, or whether it's because we're of differing alignments. So basically you have no clear read on anyone, and are just naming the 3 guys that have pressure on them anyway, although you don't think anyone is scum? What is this? Who do you want to lynch right now, and why? You don't need to write an essay, I just want at least one name and an explanation for it. Sentinel: His early game unprovoked defense of fferyllt was strange in a way that I do not see coming from a townie. His following start up of the bandwagon on Vivax and then hopping off strikes me as mafia motivated 9 times out of 10 because he had weak reasoning coming off of it, but didn't attempt to dissuade anyone else or comment on their positions about Vivax. Ergo: he wants the lynch to happen, but doesn't want to be on the lynch when it happens. I haven't voted him yet because I still have more time to put into looking through the thread, if I don't find someone I think is more likely to be mafia than him, then he'll get my vote soon enough. This is quite a lot of assumptions from 1 action. So he is your top scumspect because, 1. Odd defense 2. Weak reasoning for hopping off Vivax? Can you elaborate on both points? His odd defense I think has been gone over fairly solidly by others like Marv. He comes in to defend Ferryllt for seemingly no reason, with very strange logic. "It's someone who is just really over eager to post as town" "It was just a mistake that they posted a fluff post" "They were just so over eager that they forget that they were supposed to say anything in their post". It just read to me as someone trying to pick up a town buddy, but making some critical judgement errors along the way. 2. His reason for voting Vivax in the first place was "you wanted people to move at full speed, moving at full speed means that mafia will know who the weak people are to kill off, you must be mafia" That was his only scum read at the time. Later he just says "Okay, we'll just agree to disagree." and unvotes him.
1. Thats interesting. Can you quote stuff?
2. Quote stuff pls? 
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I actually have remarkably little time between now and the deadline, which is annoying. Curses early deadline!
There are two main reasons I could lynch deconduo, since I keep canvassing opinion about it.
First of all, there's the drop and run case on ghost. It's an easy case for mafia to make (yes yes, I know I agreed with some of it), and besides it there's very little interactions or comments on other players. I did a check on some of his previous games earlier, in PYP Boardwalk, decon was pretty quick to offer comments on several different players, unlike here.
Secondly there's this post:
On May 16 2013 00:04 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 23:57 marvellosity wrote:On May 15 2013 23:53 deconduo wrote:
Hmm, what I would probably aim to do, given the setup, is to try and gather 2 groups together. The ABCFJ block is quite nice, and positioned well. If they head for the top left corner (assuming there's no angels in the way) and try and set up defensively there.
The rest are scattered around a bit more, but its still salvagable if they aim to head towards the bottom edge, probably close to where E is right now. G is the most isolated of everyone and is a good bet for being the first angel-food unless he has high movespeed.
Identifying who we all are is definitely a priority. I would argue that rather than waiting until the deadline to announce our moves, we should all come up with 12 unique moves and assign them to each player. This avoids any chance of scum doubling up on moves. This carries the massive risk of scum influencing what the moves we make are. Use a random number generator to assign the moves or something. Or come up with 24/36 moves and give people a choice between 2/3 of them which they reveal after the deadline. There are a few ways around it anyway. The only problem with this is that everyone has different move speeds.
I still feel this plan is pretty mafia-motivated. As I understand how the movement rules work, giving pre-determined directions to players has massive benefits for mafia, because they know how the movements correspond to each player, which could help them determine how the hidden angels that we don't know about would move, while giving out information ahead of townies ahead of time is meaningless because they can't know who they are.
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On May 17 2013 01:38 marvellosity wrote:I actually have remarkably little time between now and the deadline, which is annoying. Curses early deadline! There are two main reasons I could lynch deconduo, since I keep canvassing opinion about it. First of all, there's the drop and run case on ghost. It's an easy case for mafia to make (yes yes, I know I agreed with some of it), and besides it there's very little interactions or comments on other players. I did a check on some of his previous games earlier, in PYP Boardwalk, decon was pretty quick to offer comments on several different players, unlike here. Secondly there's this post: Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 00:04 deconduo wrote:On May 15 2013 23:57 marvellosity wrote:On May 15 2013 23:53 deconduo wrote:
Hmm, what I would probably aim to do, given the setup, is to try and gather 2 groups together. The ABCFJ block is quite nice, and positioned well. If they head for the top left corner (assuming there's no angels in the way) and try and set up defensively there.
The rest are scattered around a bit more, but its still salvagable if they aim to head towards the bottom edge, probably close to where E is right now. G is the most isolated of everyone and is a good bet for being the first angel-food unless he has high movespeed.
Identifying who we all are is definitely a priority. I would argue that rather than waiting until the deadline to announce our moves, we should all come up with 12 unique moves and assign them to each player. This avoids any chance of scum doubling up on moves. This carries the massive risk of scum influencing what the moves we make are. Use a random number generator to assign the moves or something. Or come up with 24/36 moves and give people a choice between 2/3 of them which they reveal after the deadline. There are a few ways around it anyway. The only problem with this is that everyone has different move speeds. I still feel this plan is pretty mafia-motivated. As I understand how the movement rules work, giving pre-determined directions to players has massive benefits for mafia, because they know how the movements correspond to each player, which could help them determine how the hidden angels that we don't know about would move, while giving out information ahead of townies ahead of time is meaningless because they can't know who they are.
When is the deadline? I cant see it in the OP and stuff.
So Deconduo,
Point 1: Meta.
Point 2: Bad plan.
Right, not the strongest case ever. Is deconduo's plan the only mafia motivated plan?
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That's not what I wrote, please stop misrepresenting things Oats, it's very annoying.
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On May 17 2013 01:38 marvellosity wrote:I actually have remarkably little time between now and the deadline, which is annoying. Curses early deadline! There are two main reasons I could lynch deconduo, since I keep canvassing opinion about it. First of all, there's the drop and run case on ghost. It's an easy case for mafia to make (yes yes, I know I agreed with some of it), and besides it there's very little interactions or comments on other players. I did a check on some of his previous games earlier, in PYP Boardwalk, decon was pretty quick to offer comments on several different players, unlike here. Secondly there's this post: Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 00:04 deconduo wrote:On May 15 2013 23:57 marvellosity wrote:On May 15 2013 23:53 deconduo wrote:
Hmm, what I would probably aim to do, given the setup, is to try and gather 2 groups together. The ABCFJ block is quite nice, and positioned well. If they head for the top left corner (assuming there's no angels in the way) and try and set up defensively there.
The rest are scattered around a bit more, but its still salvagable if they aim to head towards the bottom edge, probably close to where E is right now. G is the most isolated of everyone and is a good bet for being the first angel-food unless he has high movespeed.
Identifying who we all are is definitely a priority. I would argue that rather than waiting until the deadline to announce our moves, we should all come up with 12 unique moves and assign them to each player. This avoids any chance of scum doubling up on moves. This carries the massive risk of scum influencing what the moves we make are. Use a random number generator to assign the moves or something. Or come up with 24/36 moves and give people a choice between 2/3 of them which they reveal after the deadline. There are a few ways around it anyway. The only problem with this is that everyone has different move speeds. I still feel this plan is pretty mafia-motivated. As I understand how the movement rules work, giving pre-determined directions to players has massive benefits for mafia, because they know how the movements correspond to each player, which could help them determine how the hidden angels that we don't know about would move, while giving out information ahead of townies ahead of time is meaningless because they can't know who they are.
My hesitation is that he was saying townies pick between 2 or 3 moves without revealing them. This does narrow down the possible movements that the mafia have to worry about, but does it narrow it down enough to be helpful? Say, if the options were simple, and I was asked to move either forward 3 spaces, backwards 3 spaces, or to the right 3 spaces, would this help the angels feed on me? Those are quite far apart on the board, the exception being if I'm a character near a wall.
I guess, the bigger concern for me there, would be: Are you thinking that he would assign people movement options that would, on average, gather people near where the angels are intended to be?
Actually, having that thought I can see how that would be an amazing plan for the Angels IF they're the ones who assign the movement options.
I will have to think about this.
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Sharrant, if you check the nested quote, he only offered that solution after being pressed, having originally offered the idea of giving one set movement per player.
One way or another, I can see literally no reason to pre-assign moves to townies, and pretty obvious mafia reasons.
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On May 17 2013 01:43 marvellosity wrote:
That's not what I wrote, please stop misrepresenting things Oats, it's very annoying.
no that is what you wrote. Simplified, but it is.
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On May 17 2013 01:49 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 01:43 marvellosity wrote:
That's not what I wrote, please stop misrepresenting things Oats, it's very annoying. no that is what you wrote. Simplified, but it is.
no, it isn't. The first point was about his play in this game, the meta was only a small supporting argument. The 2nd was that the plan was mafia-motivated, nothing to do with bad/good.
Learn to read.
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The fact you're characterising the first argument as a meta argument renders your opinion worthless.
In any case, I'm going to vote for deconduo. Can anyone give me any good reasons he's town?
I'm still not massively anti- the Vivax wagon, my biggest problem with it is the ease of it's take-off. That makes me squirm.
##Vote: deconduo
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I am absolutely willing to vote Deconduo after reading the first quote. You're right, that plan would enable the scum team to be able to know exactly where each town member would end up. That would guarantee that they would get to feed tonight, whether or not that replaces their normal KP.
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I should also mention that I'm backing off Sharrant because his answers feel sincere, without any edge to them that I can discern one way or another. He's not complaining that I'm attacking him, he's just trying to explain his viewpoints. I'm still not a fan of some of the things he said earlier, but his explanations and posting since then make me view him more favourably.
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You have my axe, Marv.
##Vote: Deconduo
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On May 17 2013 01:55 Sharrant wrote:
You have my axe, Marv.
##Vote: Deconduo
Should have got you lynched, really, I would have gotten my long-awaited prize all the sooner ;P
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On May 17 2013 01:56 marvellosity wrote:Should have got you lynched, really, I would have gotten my long-awaited prize all the sooner ;P
Hahaha, you certainly should have, guess you'll just have to wait a few days. 
I think this might be the first time I'm actually right about thinking you're town. I'm so happy!
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EPT
