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You probably came here thinking you'd see a great long post on how this community sucks and how all we do is witch hunt. Sorry to disappoint you but you won't find that in this post. In fact, this post will contain why I think people need to be more open to what we consider "bad manners". Not "bad manners" as we know it; but a vocal set of individuals who take competition to a recognizable level. So much so, that the fans can cognitively understand what the player is trying to say:
I think I'm better.
So, to get some things out of the way I want to reiterate that I do not condone direct confrontation between people whether it be community members, players, organizations or whatever. If you have a strong enough opinion on something that you'd take such drastic measures it's probably best to kept it to yourself.
What is and isn't BM?
After just witnessing Group B I think this is something everyone should consider. Everyone knows the story: Parting starts the group of death with some banter, which at the time was unclear if it was actual problems between players, or just playful joking. Long story short, Parting comes out in the end and tells people that everything is okay between him and others and that he was just increasing tension for the match because he felt he'd be able to get through without problems.
This is good.
You can call it whatever you want, but if the players involved know there is no malicious intent then why not make it more interesting for everyone? Sure some people will paint him as the bad guy but that does not mean he is actually acting out of spite against the other players. People simply react with varying degrees of "how conceited is this person, and is this good?". Sure, modesty can be thought of as a virtue, but taking a look over to how people market themselves in UFC matches their ideas are clear: I will not lose to this person and I want that to be made clear.
So what does this mean really? Well, I personally never see the reason why people get so riled up in the SC2 community of such small things. No gg no skill, Terran is imba!, Zerg is imba!, Protoss is imba!. I cannot connect the dots between these things, which if anything, I'd call excuses for ego at worst (Which isn't even a bad thing in retrospect to the above; assuming you want to be a good player) and "bad manners". What is BM is direct threats, insults, racial slurs, and so on against players BECAUSE they are who they are. If you make a comment intending to damage a players reputation or attack the player for being who they are then you are being bad mannered. This comes in many forms such as some of Idra's comments, Orb's racial slurs, and so on. You get the idea, there is a difference.
There needs to be a line drawn I think. If a player, or anyone for that matter, thinks that there is a problem with the game yet has no ill intentions against someone whom they may argue with or speak out against does it matter what they say, do, or think? I cannot wrap my head around why people say:
Oh, look at that guy who said he lost because Terran is too strong! So bad mannered!
Yet, the player never said anything to the person he or she lost to. Don't you think there is a difference between complaining to yourself rather than maliciously insulting someone covertly or overtly? I only see false equivalency between calling someone bad mannered for the reason that one may hate the game for how it is. Sure, a person may not be as professional as another player. But realistically, not everyone has the same mind set as Grubby. Not everyone has such a wonderful time playing the game just for how the game is. So if you're able to understand that fact alone, why do you attempt to persecute them for getting frustrated? If that's how a person is just leave them alone. If you don't like what a player has to say then you don't have to watch them. It doesn't mean they are actually intending to offend anyone.
If people cannot get over the fact that some people simply view themselves as better players all we're doing is limiting how competitive our scene can be by being overly sensitive to every little thing we see, read, or hear. It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person.
+ Show Spoiler +A few disclaimers I guess: I don't support relativism on this subject. There are some things a person should not say out loud to others, even if they are covert about it. This isn't really about me, though some of it may apply; but rather, about a lot of things I notice stream viewers constantly comment on. This ranges from things such as "wow he was raging!" to "he was talking shit all game on his stream!" when in reality none of that says anything about that players intent.
tl;dr: Don't make such a big deal out of people getting frustrated or thinking they are a better player if they're never actually intending to harm the other person; but rather, are just angry at the game. If anything that should feed into the entertainment.
+ Show Spoiler +
Just thought I'd tack this on after I saw it in BisuDagger's 5k post thread:
+ Show Spoiler +
Interivew with Bisu:
Do you have any players you have difficulties with? Please tell us one
▲ There is none. Saying I have a difficult time with another player sounds like I have a hard time winning. As a progamer one must always be prepared to beat their opponent. If I do have a difficult time with my opponent then it becomes a big problem.
That was a very bold statement. This applies in every match?
▲ Of course. If a progamer has no confidence it is time the player has to quit his job. Whenever you play a game, you must have a lot of confidence. In the E-Sports scene, only those with great confidence can be winners.
 
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i love anime!
also, I really don't mind the banter that happens between players. If anything, it makes the scene much more interesting. Some people will be fans of bm players and will hunger for all the trash talk and drama that happens, while others will be anti-fans and root for whoever they are playing against just to see them lose. Either way, the scene is a lot more interesting. I personally draw the line at hate speech.
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United States24483 Posts
I feel like you are misrepresenting the issue with this part.
On May 06 2013 12:50 -Kyo- wrote:
If people cannot get over the fact that some people simply view themselves as better players I don't think that's the issue at all. People can think whatever they want... only their actions should or would be scrutinized.
all we're doing is limiting how competitive our scene can be by being overly sensitive to every little thing we see, read, or hear. How does this behavior you are attempting to defend (going by the rest of the post) increase competitiveness? Some of the most competitive activities in the world have none of what you are talking about.
It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person.
Anyone who voices how good they think they are at almost anything comes across like a moron, even if it's Flash at the peak of his broodwar career. Also, what do you mean by 'get anywhere?' You think esports growth requires the behavior that you are defending? I'm not going to say the stuff players get criticized for should always be avoided, but some of it at the least is criticized for a reason.
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I think people primarily bring bad mannerism among themselves. After all, it is up to their interpretation to what is and what isn't offensive to them
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On May 06 2013 13:58 micronesia wrote:I feel like you are misrepresenting the issue with this part. Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 12:50 -Kyo- wrote:
If people cannot get over the fact that some people simply view themselves as better players I don't think that's the issue at all. People can think whatever they want... only their actions should or would be scrutinized. Show nested quote +all we're doing is limiting how competitive our scene can be by being overly sensitive to every little thing we see, read, or hear. How does this behavior you are attempting to defend (going by the rest of the post) increase competitiveness? Some of the most competitive activities in the world have none of what you are talking about. Show nested quote +It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person.
Anyone who voices how good they think they are at almost anything comes across like a moron, even if it's Flash at the peak of his broodwar career. Also, what do you mean by 'get anywhere?' You think esports growth requires the behavior that you are defending? I'm not going to say the stuff players get criticized for should always be avoided, but some of it at the least is criticized for a reason.
I should clarify: I'm not saying these things are a requirement. Only that they are a limiting factor placed on players by the community about what is or is not acceptable mannerisms. They are not needed to be competitive, as seen by the scene already, and as you mentioned with many other sports. But for example: allowing people to create a rivalry that may be two layers deep, outwardly aggressive but behind closed doors friendly, creates more dynamics and interesting concepts for those viewing to converse about instead of immediately labeling the person as 'bad mannered'. Some people play this game solely because of the competitive nature and allowing them to have an outlet to voice how they feel should not be a problem. If they really feel they're the best they should have the ability to voice this. As we both noted, it's something that 'could' be scrutinized but that's more of a 'pick-a-competing-side' kind of thing rather than 'bad' versus 'good'. For people to label them objectively as bad mannered is a misrepresentation of the person I feel.
I simply don't agree that a person sounds like a moron if they voice that they think they're better than other people. Did you read the Bisu quotes at the end? This is incredibly common among pro players. Moreover, when people lose they tend to give reasons for why they lose. This has varying degrees and frustration plays a role in how the person reacts to their losses. This does not mean that they're bad mannered, but goes back to the points addressed about intent.
By 'get anywhere' I simply mean allow an expansion of outlets for people to voice themselves. People are limited by what they can say due to how strongly people react to minor tendencies of a player. If people cannot accept the simple notion that people react in certain ways, say harsh things about the game, or get frustrated easily then I feel we're placing extra burdens players and doing so unjustly.
Your last 2 sentence... I clearly stated I don't condone people who get criticized for 'real' reason. @_@;;
+ Show Spoiler +I'm about to fall asleep so hopefully this post is at least semi-coherent.
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does this have anything to do with the shouting match you had with incontrol on twitter earlier?
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On May 06 2013 14:56 LuckyFool wrote:
does this have anything to do with the shouting match you had with incontrol on twitter earlier?
It could be related to it, but no, this is something that's been on my mind for a while. I think the only way I could get incontrol to understand anything of what I was trying to convey about the situation earlier would be if he actually talked to me, but I don't think that will ever happen haha.
Also, I wouldn't classify it as a shouting match it was more of me bringing something up.
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TLDR, just glhf every game and gg every game with NOTHING ELSE and no MATTER WHAT
BM in games just does my head in. i play at dia* level and what gets me is the early gg's manner muling and general "ur bad" statements while playing a game. This happens more than it should in my low league. Im using My league as an example but there is no need for me or anyone else here to insult anyones play. Its all pretty bad in the grand scheme of things. Half of the problem with this game is that there arent many who just play it. There arent many that dont watch the streams and there arent many who havent come from sc1. The problem here is EVERYONE thinks they are gonna hit pro level. I really do believe that everyone thinks they have a shot and almost everyone when talking about their league puts them selves 1 league higher or go onto explaining how they play people higher and win.
I wish you could turn off ALL contact within the game. For the longest time i gg'ed and glhf every game and then i stopped. (i have no idea why). i started to count how many times i would win and get completely get trash talked from the other guy. Even worse when im losing to his all in cheese and he brags about how great at the game he is over me. this usually carries on after the game, why is this guy even talking to me? I hate it. Personally i am one of the ones that just plays the game now and dont really care so here are my absolute golden rules about countering bm (some of this is bm in itself but i just hate it)
Rules for dia and below code of conduct which i abide by (even if the other guy doesnt know them!)
+ Show Spoiler +ALWAYS start with nothing more and nothing less: glhf and when its time to quit always simply gg
If any more messages come your way DO NOT RESPOND NO MATTER WHAT. Only a hand full of times in the last 15 or so years of me playing starcraft has resulted in a FRIENDLY discussion. Dont feed the trolls is the tried and tested advice when on the internet
If you get cheesed AND you saw it coming leave the game with no comment or singular "g" the game. Cheese is part of the game but in the low leagues it seems to be most games. People need to know this isnt going to improve them in the long run and it really is annoying when you never seem to get off lair tech.
IF you didnt see it coming, "gg" the game. Most cheeses when held insta win you the game, You gotta see this shit coming and thus highlights a basic scouting issue on ur part.
DO NOT dance/mannermule/multi cc . . whatever it is which is visual BM, if you see this leave your pc and let him kill you. Hes obviously wasting your time now so waste as much of his as you can. seriously get up and walk away from the machine. Spam more bases and geysers if you can but simple get up and walk away from your machine (you do this as usually the guy torrents you with utter trash talk, leaving the pc guarantees you dont see this.
IF you beat a visual bming player, insult the fuck out of them after the game but include the line first "we are in XXX league" theres is no need to be like that but at this point you can go crazy, this just makes it acceptable to make your opponent feel as bad in the hopes he doesnt do that again and end up with the egg on his face.
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Canada11182 Posts
...so this is a blog in favour of bragging? And that players should be allowed to blame their losses on balance because they think they are good players and they should not have sc fans and players call them on their excuses? Or am I reading this wrong?
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Funnily enough, I was thinking of doing my first blog on the same subject, even though my opinion is completely different.
On May 06 2013 12:50 -Kyo- wrote:
So what does this mean really? Well, I personally never see the reason why people get so riled up in the SC2 community of such small things. No gg no skill, Terran is imba!, Zerg is imba!, Protoss is imba!. I cannot connect the dots between these things, which if anything, I'd call excuses for ego at worst (Which isn't even a bad thing in retrospect to the above; assuming you want to be a good player) and "bad manners". What is BM is direct threats, insults, racial slurs, and so on against players BECAUSE they are who they are. If you make a comment intending to damage a players reputation or attack the player for being who they are then you are being bad mannered. This comes in many forms such as some of Idra's comments, Orb's racial slurs, and so on. You get the idea, there is a difference.
I think you don't really know what manners are.
definition of "Manners" by the free dictionnary
and the main part:
Manners
a. The socially correct way of acting; etiquette.
b. The prevailing customs, social conduct, and norms of a specific society, period, or group, especially as the subject of a literary work.
There is a big diffenrence between being bad mannered and being insulting, disrespectful, racist, etc. (even though sometimes, being bad mannered can be disrespectful, but those are specific cases).
Eating with your hands at a chic restaurant would be considered bad mannered, not saying thank you, or please, that's what people call bad mannered. Insulting people is more than bad mannered, it's being insulting, agressive etc.
That's for the vocabulary lesson.
On May 06 2013 12:50 -Kyo- wrote:There needs to be a line drawn I think. If a player, or anyone for that matter, thinks that there is a problem with the game yet has no ill intentions against someone whom they may argue with or speak out against does it matter what they say, do, or think? I cannot wrap my head around why people say: Oh, look at that guy who said he lost because Terran is too strong! So bad mannered! Yet, the player never said anything to the person he or she lost to. Don't you think there is a difference between complaining to yourself rather than maliciously insulting someone covertly or overtly? I only see false equivalency between calling someone bad mannered for the reason that one may hate the game for how it is. Sure, a person may not be as professional as another player. But realistically, not everyone has the same mind set as Grubby. Not everyone has such a wonderful time playing the game just for how the game is. So if you're able to understand that fact alone, why do you attempt to persecute them for getting frustrated? If that's how a person is just leave them alone. If you don't like what a player has to say then you don't have to watch them. It doesn't mean they are actually intending to offend anyone. If people cannot get over the fact that some people simply view themselves as better players all we're doing is limiting how competitive our scene can be by being overly sensitive to every little thing we see, read, or hear. It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person.+ Show Spoiler +A few disclaimers I guess: I don't support relativism on this subject. There are some things a person should not say out loud to others, even if they are covert about it. This isn't really about me, though some of it may apply; but rather, about a lot of things I notice stream viewers constantly comment on. This ranges from things such as "wow he was raging!" to "he was talking shit all game on his stream!" when in reality none of that says anything about that players intent. tl;dr: Don't make such a big deal out of people getting frustrated or thinking they are a better player if they're never actually intending to harm the other person; but rather, are just angry at the game. If anything that should feed into the entertainment. + Show Spoiler +Just thought I'd tack this on after I saw it in BisuDagger's 5k post thread: + Show Spoiler +
Interivew with Bisu:
Do you have any players you have difficulties with? Please tell us one
▲ There is none. Saying I have a difficult time with another player sounds like I have a hard time winning. As a progamer one must always be prepared to beat their opponent. If I do have a difficult time with my opponent then it becomes a big problem.
That was a very bold statement. This applies in every match?
▲ Of course. If a progamer has no confidence it is time the player has to quit his job. Whenever you play a game, you must have a lot of confidence. In the E-Sports scene, only those with great confidence can be winners.
I think your mixing everything up. Bragging, trash talking before a game, general banter, is not really bad mannered. It's just part of the game, part of the existing social etiquette of starcraft.
On the other hand, not saying gg, or "fuck imba lol" or anything else of that sort can be considered bad mannered. Why you ask?
It's pretty simple. When you loose a game of starcraft, it is considered well mannered to aknowledge that your opponent, played well, beat you fair and square and was better than you for that game. All of that comes down to saying "good game". You played a "good game". Get the idea?
So going around and blaming balance, or just not taking the time to type to letters and pressing enter, is a way of saying "you got lucky" or "you only won 'cause the game is imbalanced" or "you only won 'cause you cheesed", things that show that you are a bad looser and bad mannered.
I don't know if I've been clear on my way of explaining the etiquette that goes around starcraft, but I firmly believe that it is an important part of the game, and it really gives elegance to 2 geeks fighting virtual wars.
A quick comparison would be UFC fighters man-hugging each other after a fight (as vicious as it was) in sign of respect, and aknowledging your opponents skill.
And if two 200-pound blokes who fuckin smash each others face for 15 minutes straight can do it, I think we as a community can rise up a bit and just type those 2 letters.
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On May 06 2013 18:48 Douillos wrote:Funnily enough, I was thinking of doing my first blog on the same subject, even though my opinion is completely different. Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 12:50 -Kyo- wrote:
So what does this mean really? Well, I personally never see the reason why people get so riled up in the SC2 community of such small things. No gg no skill, Terran is imba!, Zerg is imba!, Protoss is imba!. I cannot connect the dots between these things, which if anything, I'd call excuses for ego at worst (Which isn't even a bad thing in retrospect to the above; assuming you want to be a good player) and "bad manners". What is BM is direct threats, insults, racial slurs, and so on against players BECAUSE they are who they are. If you make a comment intending to damage a players reputation or attack the player for being who they are then you are being bad mannered. This comes in many forms such as some of Idra's comments, Orb's racial slurs, and so on. You get the idea, there is a difference.
I think you don't really know what manners are. definition of "Manners" by the free dictionnaryand the main part: Show nested quote +Manners
a. The socially correct way of acting; etiquette.
b. The prevailing customs, social conduct, and norms of a specific society, period, or group, especially as the subject of a literary work.
There is a big diffenrence between being bad mannered and being insulting, disrespectful, racist, etc. (even though sometimes, being bad mannered can be disrespectful, but those are specific cases). Eating with your hands at a chic restaurant would be considered bad mannered, not saying thank you, or please, that's what people call bad mannered. Insulting people is more than bad mannered, it's being insulting, agressive etc. That's for the vocabulary lesson. Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 12:50 -Kyo- wrote:There needs to be a line drawn I think. If a player, or anyone for that matter, thinks that there is a problem with the game yet has no ill intentions against someone whom they may argue with or speak out against does it matter what they say, do, or think? I cannot wrap my head around why people say: Oh, look at that guy who said he lost because Terran is too strong! So bad mannered! Yet, the player never said anything to the person he or she lost to. Don't you think there is a difference between complaining to yourself rather than maliciously insulting someone covertly or overtly? I only see false equivalency between calling someone bad mannered for the reason that one may hate the game for how it is. Sure, a person may not be as professional as another player. But realistically, not everyone has the same mind set as Grubby. Not everyone has such a wonderful time playing the game just for how the game is. So if you're able to understand that fact alone, why do you attempt to persecute them for getting frustrated? If that's how a person is just leave them alone. If you don't like what a player has to say then you don't have to watch them. It doesn't mean they are actually intending to offend anyone. If people cannot get over the fact that some people simply view themselves as better players all we're doing is limiting how competitive our scene can be by being overly sensitive to every little thing we see, read, or hear. It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person.+ Show Spoiler +A few disclaimers I guess: I don't support relativism on this subject. There are some things a person should not say out loud to others, even if they are covert about it. This isn't really about me, though some of it may apply; but rather, about a lot of things I notice stream viewers constantly comment on. This ranges from things such as "wow he was raging!" to "he was talking shit all game on his stream!" when in reality none of that says anything about that players intent. tl;dr: Don't make such a big deal out of people getting frustrated or thinking they are a better player if they're never actually intending to harm the other person; but rather, are just angry at the game. If anything that should feed into the entertainment. + Show Spoiler +Just thought I'd tack this on after I saw it in BisuDagger's 5k post thread: + Show Spoiler +
Interivew with Bisu:
Do you have any players you have difficulties with? Please tell us one
▲ There is none. Saying I have a difficult time with another player sounds like I have a hard time winning. As a progamer one must always be prepared to beat their opponent. If I do have a difficult time with my opponent then it becomes a big problem.
That was a very bold statement. This applies in every match?
▲ Of course. If a progamer has no confidence it is time the player has to quit his job. Whenever you play a game, you must have a lot of confidence. In the E-Sports scene, only those with great confidence can be winners.
I think your mixing everything up. Bragging, trash talking before a game, general banter, is not really bad mannered. It's just part of the game, part of the existing social etiquette of starcraft. On the other hand, not saying gg, or "fuck imba lol" or anything else of that sort can be considered bad mannered. Why you ask? It's pretty simple. When you loose a game of starcraft, it is considered well mannered to aknowledge that your opponent, played well, beat you fair and square and was better than you for that game. All of that comes down to saying "good game". You played a "good game". Get the idea? So going around and blaming balance, or just not taking the time to type to letters and pressing enter, is a way of saying "you got lucky" or "you only won 'cause the game is imbalanced" or "you only won 'cause you cheesed", things that show that you are a bad looser and bad mannered. I don't know if I've been clear on my way of explaining the etiquette that goes around starcraft, but I firmly believe that it is an important part of the game, and it really gives elegance to 2 geeks fighting virtual wars. A quick comparison would be UFC fighters man-hugging each other after a fight (as vicious as it was) in sign of respect, and aknowledging your opponents skill. And if two 200-pound blokes who fuckin smash each others face for 15 minutes straight can do it, I think we as a community can rise up a bit and just type those 2 letters.
Good post. Well said well said.
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I see the point you're trying to make, but it boggles me that you don't seem to understand where the opinions in question come from. It's perfectly reasonable for a fan involved with the scene to think less of a player because he acts in such a way.
While I was still following Starcraft, I know I would in my mind downgarde whiny, cocky, or arrogant players and see them as lesser players compared to ones of equal (or greater) skill that do not display such behavior. Firstly because I think that getting tangled up in such nonsense and acquiring such a mindset makes them perform less than optimally. Secondly because I think that most Starcraft progamers have neither the genuine ability nor inclination to "act out" just for hype and show, and that there's at the very least a seed of truth in most things that get said in public. It's ridiculously easy to tell which comments you can discard as a friendly banter, and which come from players that are actually butthurt even though they'll try to do their best "oh it's just a joke" impression.
Finally, comparing Starcraft to something like UFC is a little silly. Starcraft players are kids or young adults playing a video game - so is most of the audience. Fighters being cocky and arrogant in UFC leaves a completely different impression than Starcraft players acting in a similar way. The former is simply more appopriate, suitable and acceptable due to the nature of the sport and what the audience looks for in the sport. The latter ranges somewhere between dumb and awkward most of the time.
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I get what the Kyo is trying to say, that players promoting and hyping their match makes it more fun for everyone. It shows they are invested and surfaces the fact that their pride is on the line. But there is a difference between hyping and trash talking. Lets compair and contrast:
Trash Talking
Standard Idra: "X-player is trash and only survives off of coin flip builds and abusing X-race. If Blizzard balanced the game correctly, he wouldn't even be here"
Hyping(Polite Trash Talking)
Parting: "Life's skill level isn't even at my feet."
Life: "PartinG is a good player but not worthy of a champion, more like a RO8 player. Not even if he practices for 5 years".
We can all see the difference between the two types. Both Parting and Life's comments directed at one another and relative to each other's skill level. Neither are saying that the other one shouldn't even be in Code S or got there due to imbalance. Either player can walk away from that without any question that they are good player, but just not good enough to be the other.
BM and trash talking are thoughtless(not pre-planned with a set purpose) comments made to cover up the fact that a player lost or that they do not like their opponent on a personal level. Hyping a match is the opposite of that. It is planned out, thought through and done with the purpose both players come out of the match looking like champions. Both sides are in on the hype and understand the goal. As a community, we need to not confuse the two and assume that anyone talking a bunch of mess is hyping them selves. I may just be that the player is an ass hole and found a new way to be one in public.
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On May 06 2013 16:48 Falling wrote:
...so this is a blog in favour of bragging? And that players should be allowed to blame their losses on balance because they think they are good players and they should not have sc fans and players call them on their excuses? Or am I reading this wrong?
You got the last part completely wrong. Yes, a player should be able to vent their frustration if they so feel the need to. However, if people do not wish to support them they do not have to - you have to realize there is a difference between simply having certain behavioral traits versus intentionally being aggressive towards someone. I think that's the good thing about such a big community though, if you want to you can watch other players instead.
In response to the other posters:
things that show that you are a bad looser and bad mannered.
I simply do not agree that these two are equivalent. A person can be a bad loser, get frustrated with the game, but not be bad mannered. The thing you sort of overlooked, though you pointed it out, with your vocabulary 'lesson' is that 'manners' are a socially constructed norm. Normalized actions are, in fact, subjective. They are a construct, but the construct is established by a group in power/dominance. This does not mean that objectively their actions are good or bad but instead they deviate from what people expect. Hence, why I propose that people who get frustrated or who choose to use playful banter are not acting 'bad mannered'; but rather, simply like to use this outlet for fun, depth to rivalry, or just to calm down. I think that's simply a part of being competitive in some cases, and obviously a part of how some people act in this community already. I simply think to label them as 'bad mannered' in the first place sets an incorrect social standard that caps a player's behavior. In essence, you're coming into the argument with a predetermined way that people 'should' act regardless of it it's 'actually' bad or just them venting.* As I noted, a person does not have to support people who act this way.
*After reading over some of the other comments I felt I should also clarify: The difference I was trying to establish was mainly for ladder games not tournament games. I think in a professional environment people are expected to conduct certain actions whether they may want to or not(glhf gg etc). I still maintain that there is room for talk such as how Parting and Life did. This argument is more based around when players have their own free time, are just practicing alone, or purposely use playful banter that should be obvious they should not be held to the same standards at all times. I think these global restrictions simply limit how certain players would like to voice themselves whether it's popular or not.
Hopefully that makes a few things more clear~
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In regards to the original post, I think you are mixing up what is bad manners and what is friendly banter. First of all, I don't think anyone in their right minds would think Parting was bm (in regards to group B). Read up on what Parting and Life said exactly, and you'll see that koreans have a very modest approach to any sort of banter that is very different from direct insults.
So what does this mean really? Well, I personally never see the reason why people get so riled up in the SC2 community of such small things. No gg no skill, Terran is imba!, Zerg is imba!, Protoss is imba!. I cannot connect the dots between these things, which if anything, I'd call excuses for ego at worst (Which isn't even a bad thing in retrospect to the above; assuming you want to be a good player) and "bad manners".
From the above, you seem to think that cries of imbalance and inflated ego is OK? I'm not sure why you have this opinion, if you blame the game itself while thinking you are better than others, I don't see how this is healthy in any sport or competition.
What is BM is direct threats, insults, racial slurs, and so on against players BECAUSE they are who they are. If you make a comment intending to damage a players reputation or attack the player for being who they are then you are being bad mannered. This comes in many forms such as some of Idra's comments, Orb's racial slurs, and so on. You get the idea, there is a difference.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "BECAUSE they are who they are". Any direct threats, insults, racial slurs should be considered BM. No excuses for otherwise...
Oh, look at that guy who said he lost because Terran is too strong! So bad mannered!
Yet, the player never said anything to the person he or she lost to. Don't you think there is a difference between complaining to yourself rather than maliciously insulting someone covertly or overtly?
To address your question, there is no difference, and that is due to the inherent ambiguity of the English language. Look at an example, Naniwa vs TLO. In one of the games, Naniwa lost to swarm host play, and immediately tweets zerg imbalance. What does this tell the viewers? Do you think that we all acknowledge that Naniwa has no ill intentions towards TLO and is only blaming his own mistakes? Of course not, what is being communicated is that Naniwa is not acknowledging TLO's skill in his victory, instead saying that he won through an unit's imbalance. Naniwa might be a saint for all we know, but when you cry imbalance you are not communicating respect for your opponent.
It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person.
Last thing I want to address, why is a complete lack of modesty a good thing for this community? Giving everyone an ego is the least that you want for this game. Do you want your opponent to say they are better than you every time you lose? Why should anyone feel that they need to voice out how much better they are compared to others? All this does is spread negativity. Would you go into a completely foreign RTS where every established player calls you out for being a noob? A lack of modesty also often beings out inflated egos, and as a viewer, I certainly don't want people with inflated egos to be commenting on the balance of the game.
I hope you don't see my post as being too hostile, I just want to point out that there is a distinction between friendly banter and bad manners, and the latter is not productive for the community.
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On May 08 2013 07:01 FrogsAreDogs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In regards to the original post, I think you are mixing up what is bad manners and what is friendly banter. First of all, I don't think anyone in their right minds would think Parting was bm (in regards to group B). Read up on what Parting and Life said exactly, and you'll see that koreans have a very modest approach to any sort of banter that is very different from direct insults.
So what does this mean really? Well, I personally never see the reason why people get so riled up in the SC2 community of such small things. No gg no skill, Terran is imba!, Zerg is imba!, Protoss is imba!. I cannot connect the dots between these things, which if anything, I'd call excuses for ego at worst (Which isn't even a bad thing in retrospect to the above; assuming you want to be a good player) and "bad manners".
From the above, you seem to think that cries of imbalance and inflated ego is OK? I'm not sure why you have this opinion, if you blame the game itself while thinking you are better than others, I don't see how this is healthy in any sport or competition.
What is BM is direct threats, insults, racial slurs, and so on against players BECAUSE they are who they are. If you make a comment intending to damage a players reputation or attack the player for being who they are then you are being bad mannered. This comes in many forms such as some of Idra's comments, Orb's racial slurs, and so on. You get the idea, there is a difference.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "BECAUSE they are who they are". Any direct threats, insults, racial slurs should be considered BM. No excuses for otherwise...
Oh, look at that guy who said he lost because Terran is too strong! So bad mannered!
Yet, the player never said anything to the person he or she lost to. Don't you think there is a difference between complaining to yourself rather than maliciously insulting someone covertly or overtly?
To address your question, there is no difference, and that is due to the inherent ambiguity of the English language. Look at an example, Naniwa vs TLO. In one of the games, Naniwa lost to swarm host play, and immediately tweets zerg imbalance. What does this tell the viewers? Do you think that we all acknowledge that Naniwa has no ill intentions towards TLO and is only blaming his own mistakes? Of course not, what is being communicated is that Naniwa is not acknowledging TLO's skill in his victory, instead saying that he won through an unit's imbalance. Naniwa might be a saint for all we know, but when you cry imbalance you are not communicating respect for your opponent. It's going to take leaps and bounds before we can get anywhere with this community if a person cannot voice how good they think they are at the game and problems they may have with it without being labeled a "bad mannered" person. Last thing I want to address, why is a complete lack of modesty a good thing for this community? Giving everyone an ego is the least that you want for this game. Do you want your opponent to say they are better than you every time you lose? Why should anyone feel that they need to voice out how much better they are compared to others? All this does is spread negativity. Would you go into a completely foreign RTS where every established player calls you out for being a noob? A lack of modesty also often beings out inflated egos, and as a viewer, I certainly don't want people with inflated egos to be commenting on the balance of the game. I hope you don't see my post as being too hostile, I just want to point out that there is a distinction between friendly banter and bad manners, and the latter is not productive for the community.
This post is hilarious. Sam!zdat and I beat you twice in a row on 2v2 ladder, and each game, you started out by saying, "good luck, you're gonna need it.". Looks like you probably ought to take a bit of your own medicine.
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EPT
