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The mind is an interesting thing.
Is it possible for one to disarm a mind in a way so that the mind itself doesn't even believe it's been disarmed?
In the past I believed brainwashing was a joke. Who would be stupid enough to fall for something that would allow others to take control of them and control them? How could something like this be done to seemingly highly intelligent and otherwise very successful people? The answer seems to be shockingly simple really after I believe I've seen it in someone I know.
You get the person to throw away their past and to an extent, their logical reasoning ability. Once a person believes (or thinks they believe) that this voice of reason that they've had all their life is actually just a "bad character" which is holding them back from "being all they can be" the person may tell themselves to wipe clean their failure of a past and to start anew. A radical transformation might then occur, the person might feel a sense of euphoric freedom with their newfound transformation. But is this transformation healthy? Are they really free or are they simply becoming more trapped than they ever have in the past? Is throwing away literally everything in your past ever a smart thing to do? No matter how screwed up a persons past is, is it ever a good idea to wipe absolutely everything? I mean before you run that Format C: /yes command on your brain, you better sit there long and hard and make sure you at least saved your music/documents/pictures otherwise it's gonna really be a bitch (I speak from experience)
The extent or how long a brainwash might take may very greatly for different individuals. I think people are all vulnerable to be broken to some degree. Some people may be quite a bit more emotionally comprised than others. Think of people you know in life, do you know people who cry easily? Who get angry over things easily? Who have extremely short attention spans? Who seem to lack direction or focus in their lives? People like this I feel could be prone to some tactics more easily than others. Is this a fault of these people? Could everyone make it through 36 nearly straight hours of highly controlled activities, designed to disarm and mold you how the brainwasher wishes? What kind of activity over these 36 hours would be required, would the brainwasher first get you to depend on them somehow without you really realizing? Would they dictate everything you do, from when you can get up, if you are allowed to take notes or not, if you're allowed to talk or not, whom you are allowed to talk to. Say there's a group of people in a classroom setting and you start depending on your classmates as part of the "group" brainwash, but you don't even realize you depend on them. What if these groups are encourage to turn into groups of trust but suddenly you feel obligated to act in accordance with the instructor otherwise someone in your group will call you out. You are told you can't break the trust in the group, but by not reporting "rebellion" to the instructor you'll be breaking trust? What if your instructor is not only saying things to you on a conscious level, but what if he is acting, doing, saying, and using words in a precise way to "win you over" ? Using specific language, drilling specific words and speaking in different tones and speeds to not only prevent you from being able to deduce or think rationally?
The seed that plants a train of thought in an individual, then has the power to mold and use the brainwashed person to do with them what they want. Some people may break much harder than others. What if they have you look back at your life and pick out a moment in your past where you realize you went astray. What if that moment was when you were 3 or 4 years old? What if you told yourself that the past "x" years of your life since that moment when you were 3 or 4 is really just an inauthentic lie? What if you are told that even questioning your questioning of this is inauthentic? You then are told you aren't allowed to question this or you are falling back into a trap of being inauthentic.
Ah I apologize for the rambling train of thoughts, it's late and I've been reading on stuff that is rather fascinating, interested if others on TL have either experienced things like this or know of anyone that has. We've all heard about Tom Cruise and his Scientology fun but up until now I never really dove into it as deep and what I've been finding is both astounding and saddening at the same time. So many people, highly intelligent people too, unaware of reality really, and unaware that they are unaware. It almost reminds of something like the matrix in real life.
 
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You're talking about bronies, aren't you
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Ah I apologize for the rambling train of thoughts, it's late and I've been reading on stuff that is rather fascinating, interested if others on TL have either experienced things like this or know of anyone that has.
You've been reading the bible? Perfect brainwashing tool - I've seen what it (and the community around it) did to my highly intelligent mother after she divorced and blamed herself. They broke her and since then I was bound to go to hell (for having sex before marriage etc.) and she was all about the glory of god.
Anyway, brainwashing is very real, but your post is a tiny bit rambly. Maybe add some interesting sources because it's a good topic.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 31 2013 17:18 LuckyFool wrote:
What kind of activity over these 36 hours would be required, would the brainwasher first get you to depend on them somehow without you really realizing?
2v2's?
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Great blog entry.
I think we're all brainwashed. People get usually personally offended whenever you shatter their sphere of personal certainty about the world. As you mentioned, the part about being unaware of being unaware is the key.
I think this is a really complex subject. There are just so many types of brainwashing that it's hard to even approach the subject. Some of it is just being part of a society. Whenever we interact with each other, the same neurons fire in our brains when empathize as when we actually experience something. The separation between ourselves and those around us, in the environment we're in, is artificial. This isn't brainwashing, but it shows how vague the concept of "I" really is. Is an individual really distinct from his society? Is a brainwashed person really the same person as they were previously? Do we really control our own lives, and if so, what part of us does? Does the idealistic person living inside of us, the hedonistic person, the intellectual one? They're all in conflict with each other. Psychologically, we aren't a single individual but rather a conglomerate of independent processes with our ego kind of being the center of it all, which really likes to pretend it's in control all the time. I believe the primary way out of this dilemma is self-observation. Check out this video:
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't personally know a lot about the hypnotic type of brainwashing where somehow a certain critical part of a person can be bypassed and a suggestible state is induced. The fact that that even exists should make you question everything about reality, because that just blows my mind.
One of the most powerful and interesting forms of brainwashing involves inducing multiple personalities in an individual. This is how a lot of satanists live. They seem like normal people, but they have multiple personalities in them. The way multiple personalities are created is that one's psyche is shattered through trauma, usually as a child through some type of torture. Then the other personality can be activated through certain key words/sentences/whatever. It is believed by some that certain books, movies, or songs can induce MPD (multiple personality disorder). I'll let you research the connection between MPD and mind control on your own.
Totally forgetting and ignoring one's memory seems like a dissociative behavior to me. It seems a little bit similar to manic behavior where one is concerned with all kinds of things (mania usually involves religion for some reason), but they can't focus on daily things like taking a bath, washing dishes, basic reality stuff. They're out there in magic land, "over the rainbow" (a claimed mind control song).
Our memories are very important; they're actually like a sensory organ to us - the organ that senses time. Throwing them away takes away one aspect through which we perceive reality.
The matrix association was a good one, as that basic idea goes very far. Anyway, if you think to long and hard about all this stuff, it can potentially change you. So be careful in how much research you do, or you might end up like me.
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@fight or flight (in sc2 viking voice) That's astute comparing denial of the past to manic behaviour because both behaviours demonstrate a desire to deny aspects reality. Perhaps both are a result of the ego wanting to repress aspects of life that conflict with its ideals?
Where does your information on multiple personalities come from? Carl Jung believed most people had at least two personalities. Carl Jung himself, even as a child had one personality that was an old man who was connected with ancient parts of humanity and one part of him that was a little boy.
Me, my own inner dialogue is too filled with various voices to even choose a personality. I do know that i have a "shadow" in jungian terms, which scorns me for all of the behaviour that does not meet with my ego's desires.
I have had some manic periods in my life; They're actually quite fun until they end. The explanation of my episodes in terms of psychiatry, in my opinion, is the episodes are a result of my mind's dreams becoming so incongruent with the realities of the body that the body is overruled by wild dreams of the imagination.
@ LuckyFool - Yes I know people who cry easily and people who get angry easily, and i'm one of them. Generally this is the disposition of someone who is LESS susceptible to brainwashing in my opinion. Emotions like anger and sadness are a result of being unsatisfied. Those with generally pleasant dispositions will find it easier to accept things the way they are generally in my opinion. To support this I feel i have to choose a type of brainwashing to talk about.
To me, it often feels like we are all already brainwashed. We are told what is valuable when we're young: ie being good at sports, being good looking, being talented. All of these "valuable" traits become part of some of our very important decisions like choosing a mate or a lifestyle (ie careers). Someone who is not happy with his situation will be more inclined to look for ways out...
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yeah fight or flight and Japhybaby I agree.
I love studying religions and learning about things that drive people. Especially when I meet people in life who are or seem to be so passionate about something to a point where it almost doesn't seem real. And it's quite interesting because there are so many people out there who believe in literally opposite things. It really is amazingly complex to a point where I feel truely getting to the root of hardcore psychological manipulation is kind of impossible to grasp. I dont really have a desire to site sources or do any "formal" study on it because quite frankly it's just downright weirdass shit.
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That's what cults are all about aren't they? We all know or have heard of people who were dragged into cult when they were at low points in their lives. They build them back up, and the person having gone from the bottom of the barrel to some kind of happiness in life is willing to accept any explanation for it.
I think one fascinating thing about this is that it seems like nobody is impervious to it. I could be wrong, but I know of incredibly smart people who have, suddenly, with no warning, fallen to batshit crazy dogmas and beliefs.
On March 31 2013 22:27 Japhybaby wrote:
@ LuckyFool - Yes I know people who cry easily and people who get angry easily, and i'm one of them. Generally this is the disposition of someone who is LESS susceptible to brainwashing in my opinion. Emotions like anger and sadness are a result of being unsatisfied. Those with generally pleasant dispositions will find it easier to accept things the way they are generally in my opinion. To support this I feel i have to choose a type of brainwashing to talk about.
IMO the whole brainwashing thing generally occurs to people who are weak emotionally. Religious conversions for instance don't typically happen to people who are having a good time because they're not looking to fix anything.
To me, it often feels like we are all already brainwashed. We are told what is valuable when we're young: ie being good at sports, being good looking, being talented. All of these "valuable" traits become part of some of our very important decisions like choosing a mate or a lifestyle (ie careers). Someone who is not happy with his situation will be more inclined to look for ways out...
To some extent we are, and one could argue that we're very brainwashed. I'm by no means an expert or even knowledgeable about this but I think that if we're to believe behaviorists, a LARGE portion of our morals, ethics and all that stuff were essentially "given" to us by our parents or whatever role models we had when we were kids. We can also form our own opinions like I believe I did, but it was largely derived from the opinions of others, although some of it is my own (I think). But all of it can be replaced.
Long winded personal story:
+ Show Spoiler +Most of the people in my family are professionals, they're middle to higher middle class. My brother's friends are, for the most part, lower class people - school dropouts with menial jobs. My brother has always been a bit of a sheep - his friends smoke, he smokes, they do weed 7 days a week, he does too, they drink too much, he drinks too much, they drive drunk, he drives drunk as well... And now he hates the "rich". For my mother's birthday, we were at a restaurant where the bill is typically $25-30 per person, nothing extravagant. When my mother asked for the waitress to wait 15 minutes before placing the other, my brother whispered to me something like "fucking rich people". He intentionally wears dirty clothes everywhere so that people wouldn't think he's "rich"... etc.
He's also a conspiracy theorist, believes everything he's told and it even goes so far as his belief that there's another "Earth" exactly like ours on the other side of the Sun but the government doesn't want us to know.
He wasn't like this. Those things were planted there because he's extremely susceptible to this kind of stuff. His friends completely changed the "moral code" that my parents tried to give him.
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On March 31 2013 23:17 Djzapz wrote:That's what cults are all about aren't they? We all know or have heard of people who were dragged into cult when they were at low points in their lives. They build them back up, and the person having gone from the bottom of the barrel to some kind of happiness in life is willing to accept any explanation for it. I think one fascinating thing about this is that it seems like nobody is impervious to it. I could be wrong, but I know of incredibly smart people who have, suddenly, with no warning, fallen to batshit crazy dogmas and beliefs. Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 22:27 Japhybaby wrote:
@ LuckyFool - Yes I know people who cry easily and people who get angry easily, and i'm one of them. Generally this is the disposition of someone who is LESS susceptible to brainwashing in my opinion. Emotions like anger and sadness are a result of being unsatisfied. Those with generally pleasant dispositions will find it easier to accept things the way they are generally in my opinion. To support this I feel i have to choose a type of brainwashing to talk about.
IMO the whole brainwashing thing generally occurs to people who are weak emotionally. Religious conversions for instance don't typically happen to people who are having a good time because they're not looking to fix anything. Show nested quote +To me, it often feels like we are all already brainwashed. We are told what is valuable when we're young: ie being good at sports, being good looking, being talented. All of these "valuable" traits become part of some of our very important decisions like choosing a mate or a lifestyle (ie careers). Someone who is not happy with his situation will be more inclined to look for ways out... To some extent we are, and one could argue that we're very brainwashed. I'm by no means an expert or even knowledgeable about this but I think that if we're to believe behaviorists, a LARGE portion of our morals, ethics and all that stuff were essentially "given" to us by our parents or whatever role models we had when we were kids. We can also form our own opinions like I believe I did, but it was largely derived from the opinions of others, although some of it is my own (I think). But all of it can be replaced. Long winded personal story: + Show Spoiler +Most of the people in my family are professionals, they're middle to higher middle class. My brother's friends are, for the most part, lower class people - school dropouts with menial jobs. My brother has always been a bit of a sheep - his friends smoke, he smokes, they do weed 7 days a week, he does too, they drink too much, he drinks too much, they drive drunk, he drives drunk as well... And now he hates the "rich". For my mother's birthday, we were at a restaurant where the bill is typically $25-30 per person, nothing extravagant. When my mother asked for the waitress to wait 15 minutes before placing the other, my brother whispered to me something like "fucking rich people". He intentionally wears dirty clothes everywhere so that people wouldn't think he's "rich"... etc.
He's also a conspiracy theorist, believes everything he's told and it even goes so far as his belief that there's another "Earth" exactly like ours on the other side of the Sun but the government doesn't want us to know.
He wasn't like this. Those things were planted there because he's extremely susceptible to this kind of stuff. His friends completely changed the "moral code" that my parents tried to give him.
I like how you raise the point that religious converions happen to people who are emotionally distressed. Personally I don't buy it that a person with a religion is automatically brainwashed. Sure if he or she follows all of the myths of christianity as dogma, that's not what i consider mental well-being. If someone struggles through emotional distress, and finds in desperation, solutions related to the spiritual or mystical side of human existence, this person is thinking for himself and his own well being, and thus is not brainwashed.
I speak of the people who become autonomous adults by transcending the need to fit into the ideals that the cultures that their parents or their friends give them. These people may rise above the need to fit in and be loved by being like a meek, and mild sedated lamb, or they might burn through these needs like a tiger burning bright with anger and wrath in the forest of the night.
- The second paragraph is my effort at a plagiarazation/paraphrase/tribute of william blake and friedriche nietzsche (and some tom robbins)... so take it as such
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Okay, since I responded (somewhat) to Torte's I might as well give this a try. I consider myself very good at getting what I want, but I don't use brainwashing. I use manipulation. 
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On March 31 2013 23:56 Japhybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 23:17 Djzapz wrote:That's what cults are all about aren't they? We all know or have heard of people who were dragged into cult when they were at low points in their lives. They build them back up, and the person having gone from the bottom of the barrel to some kind of happiness in life is willing to accept any explanation for it. I think one fascinating thing about this is that it seems like nobody is impervious to it. I could be wrong, but I know of incredibly smart people who have, suddenly, with no warning, fallen to batshit crazy dogmas and beliefs. On March 31 2013 22:27 Japhybaby wrote:
@ LuckyFool - Yes I know people who cry easily and people who get angry easily, and i'm one of them. Generally this is the disposition of someone who is LESS susceptible to brainwashing in my opinion. Emotions like anger and sadness are a result of being unsatisfied. Those with generally pleasant dispositions will find it easier to accept things the way they are generally in my opinion. To support this I feel i have to choose a type of brainwashing to talk about.
IMO the whole brainwashing thing generally occurs to people who are weak emotionally. Religious conversions for instance don't typically happen to people who are having a good time because they're not looking to fix anything. To me, it often feels like we are all already brainwashed. We are told what is valuable when we're young: ie being good at sports, being good looking, being talented. All of these "valuable" traits become part of some of our very important decisions like choosing a mate or a lifestyle (ie careers). Someone who is not happy with his situation will be more inclined to look for ways out... To some extent we are, and one could argue that we're very brainwashed. I'm by no means an expert or even knowledgeable about this but I think that if we're to believe behaviorists, a LARGE portion of our morals, ethics and all that stuff were essentially "given" to us by our parents or whatever role models we had when we were kids. We can also form our own opinions like I believe I did, but it was largely derived from the opinions of others, although some of it is my own (I think). But all of it can be replaced. Long winded personal story: + Show Spoiler +Most of the people in my family are professionals, they're middle to higher middle class. My brother's friends are, for the most part, lower class people - school dropouts with menial jobs. My brother has always been a bit of a sheep - his friends smoke, he smokes, they do weed 7 days a week, he does too, they drink too much, he drinks too much, they drive drunk, he drives drunk as well... And now he hates the "rich". For my mother's birthday, we were at a restaurant where the bill is typically $25-30 per person, nothing extravagant. When my mother asked for the waitress to wait 15 minutes before placing the other, my brother whispered to me something like "fucking rich people". He intentionally wears dirty clothes everywhere so that people wouldn't think he's "rich"... etc.
He's also a conspiracy theorist, believes everything he's told and it even goes so far as his belief that there's another "Earth" exactly like ours on the other side of the Sun but the government doesn't want us to know.
He wasn't like this. Those things were planted there because he's extremely susceptible to this kind of stuff. His friends completely changed the "moral code" that my parents tried to give him. I like how you raise the point that religious converions happen to people who are emotionally distressed. Personally I don't buy it that a person with a religion is automatically brainwashed. Sure if he or she follows all of the myths of christianity as dogma, that's not what i consider mental well-being. If someone struggles through emotional distress, and finds in desperation, solutions related to the spiritual or mystical side of human existence, this person is thinking for himself and his own well being, and thus is not brainwashed.
I'm sure in some cases it comes from the individual person, but in many if not most cases, the "spiritual" or "mythical" thingy you speak of is actually some sort of construction. That's why religions are said to be organized, and many "spiritual" things have some kind of operational frame. To outright assume that it's never brainwashing is to put those things on a pedestal.
I think that belief in any organized religion is always "brainwashing", although maybe we could use a different term since in many cases, the religion is shoved in right at the beginning of the person's life so it doesn't technically replace anything. In all cases, the person is being programmed or reprogrammed to believe in something.
Also I don't know exactly what you mean when you talk about "spiritual" and "mythical" because people have various definitions, but given that there's no evidence that those "realms" exist, I feel that I'm justified in believing, until proof of the contrary, that what people call spirituality doesn't actually have anything to do with the notion of spirituality, but rather it's a very tangible and natural occurrence in a person's brain - and since the brain does in fact exist, well it can help a person.
I don't think anybody is saying that brainwashing has to be bad. Christianity, is essentially a belief that is planted there by others, and to those people it may be a comfortable belief to hold, whether or not what they believe is true. This example doesn't qualify as brainwashing, but lies can be easier to hear than the truth. For instance, when a kid's mother dies, you can tell him that she's going to come back and the kid will be happy. Much in the same way, the notion of a loving God, while (IMO) entirely bullshit, is comforting to some. In both those examples, you're "planting" an idea in someone's mind, and the outcome can be positive, (not that I condone it).
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On March 31 2013 17:18 LuckyFool wrote:
Ah I apologize for the rambling train of thoughts, it's late and I've been reading on stuff that is rather fascinating...
Sounds interesting. Could you say what exactly you were reading? I like learning about the (seemingly) irrational ways our brains work.
On March 31 2013 18:17 wozzot wrote:
You're talking about bronies, aren't you
What makes you say that?
On April 01 2013 00:26 StarStruck wrote:Okay, since I responded (somewhat) to Torte's I might as well give this a try. I consider myself very good at getting what I want, but I don't use brainwashing. I use manipulation. What's the difference? Or is that the point? I'm never quite sure what people mean when they use the word "brainwashing". It appears to mean different things to different people.
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On April 01 2013 04:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 23:56 Japhybaby wrote:On March 31 2013 23:17 Djzapz wrote:That's what cults are all about aren't they? We all know or have heard of people who were dragged into cult when they were at low points in their lives. They build them back up, and the person having gone from the bottom of the barrel to some kind of happiness in life is willing to accept any explanation for it. I think one fascinating thing about this is that it seems like nobody is impervious to it. I could be wrong, but I know of incredibly smart people who have, suddenly, with no warning, fallen to batshit crazy dogmas and beliefs. On March 31 2013 22:27 Japhybaby wrote:
@ LuckyFool - Yes I know people who cry easily and people who get angry easily, and i'm one of them. Generally this is the disposition of someone who is LESS susceptible to brainwashing in my opinion. Emotions like anger and sadness are a result of being unsatisfied. Those with generally pleasant dispositions will find it easier to accept things the way they are generally in my opinion. To support this I feel i have to choose a type of brainwashing to talk about.
IMO the whole brainwashing thing generally occurs to people who are weak emotionally. Religious conversions for instance don't typically happen to people who are having a good time because they're not looking to fix anything. To me, it often feels like we are all already brainwashed. We are told what is valuable when we're young: ie being good at sports, being good looking, being talented. All of these "valuable" traits become part of some of our very important decisions like choosing a mate or a lifestyle (ie careers). Someone who is not happy with his situation will be more inclined to look for ways out... To some extent we are, and one could argue that we're very brainwashed. I'm by no means an expert or even knowledgeable about this but I think that if we're to believe behaviorists, a LARGE portion of our morals, ethics and all that stuff were essentially "given" to us by our parents or whatever role models we had when we were kids. We can also form our own opinions like I believe I did, but it was largely derived from the opinions of others, although some of it is my own (I think). But all of it can be replaced. Long winded personal story: + Show Spoiler +Most of the people in my family are professionals, they're middle to higher middle class. My brother's friends are, for the most part, lower class people - school dropouts with menial jobs. My brother has always been a bit of a sheep - his friends smoke, he smokes, they do weed 7 days a week, he does too, they drink too much, he drinks too much, they drive drunk, he drives drunk as well... And now he hates the "rich". For my mother's birthday, we were at a restaurant where the bill is typically $25-30 per person, nothing extravagant. When my mother asked for the waitress to wait 15 minutes before placing the other, my brother whispered to me something like "fucking rich people". He intentionally wears dirty clothes everywhere so that people wouldn't think he's "rich"... etc.
He's also a conspiracy theorist, believes everything he's told and it even goes so far as his belief that there's another "Earth" exactly like ours on the other side of the Sun but the government doesn't want us to know.
He wasn't like this. Those things were planted there because he's extremely susceptible to this kind of stuff. His friends completely changed the "moral code" that my parents tried to give him. I like how you raise the point that religious converions happen to people who are emotionally distressed. Personally I don't buy it that a person with a religion is automatically brainwashed. Sure if he or she follows all of the myths of christianity as dogma, that's not what i consider mental well-being. If someone struggles through emotional distress, and finds in desperation, solutions related to the spiritual or mystical side of human existence, this person is thinking for himself and his own well being, and thus is not brainwashed. I'm sure in some cases it comes from the individual person, but in many if not most cases, the "spiritual" or "mythical" thingy you speak of is actually some sort of construction. That's why religions are said to be organized, and many "spiritual" things have some kind of operational frame. To outright assume that it's never brainwashing is to put those things on a pedestal. I think that belief in any organized religion is always "brainwashing", although maybe we could use a different term since in many cases, the religion is shoved in right at the beginning of the person's life so it doesn't technically replace anything. In all cases, the person is being programmed or reprogrammed to believe in something. Also I don't know exactly what you mean when you talk about "spiritual" and "mythical" because people have various definitions, but given that there's no evidence that those "realms" exist, I feel that I'm justified in believing, until proof of the contrary, that what people call spirituality doesn't actually have anything to do with the notion of spirituality, but rather it's a very tangible and natural occurrence in a person's brain - and since the brain does in fact exist, well it can help a person. I don't think anybody is saying that brainwashing has to be bad. Christianity, is essentially a belief that is planted there by others, and to those people it may be a comfortable belief to hold, whether or not what they believe is true. This example doesn't qualify as brainwashing, but lies can be easier to hear than the truth. For instance, when a kid's mother dies, you can tell him that she's going to come back and the kid will be happy. Much in the same way, the notion of a loving God, while (IMO) entirely bullshit, is comforting to some. In both those examples, you're "planting" an idea in someone's mind, and the outcome can be positive, (not that I condone it).
"I'm not sure what you mean by spiritual and 'mythical.'" I refer to the parts of life that have little practical purpose. I refer to the moments when the psyche is awe-struck by things that play no part in paying the bills or solving geometry problems. I refer to the stories passed down from generation to generation that are not literally true, but when interpreted allegorically or symbolically bring profound understanding to what it is to be human.
I don't understand what you mean by "no proof"? Various people's throughout history have invented different gods to explain the unknowable.Understanding the unknowable in one's personal way is what i speak of. I speak of the quirks of the imagination that can lead one to understanding. What do i mean by the unknowable? I mean the "cosmic giggles" that science can't explain. What is the purpose of laughter? why do we seek greater understanding of the universe? why are we here in the first place? all of the whys..
"i don't think anybody is saying brainwashing is bad." I'm saying brainwashing is bad. I think that people ought to know the truth of their existance. If someone is going to die of cancer in 3 months, they should know straight up, "you're going to die, its over" so that they can tell their loved ones how they feel and so on. I believe that people shouild know as much truth as they can so that they can aim to correct the flaws in their lives.
I disagree that christianity is simply false. That is a belief that has meant a lot to many of our ancestors and many of the members of our species throughout history. I think that many of the myths of this sect of spirituality can give us insight into our situation of living if interpreted as such. I do not equate this with lying. I think, as Joseph Campbell asserts, that myths illustrate truths of the human psyche through allegory.
In conclusion, I agree that organized religion forced upon young peoples at young ages can lead to confusion, however, i do not think this means that all religion is "brain washing." I think that there are many valuable spritual lessons to be gained from participating in religious practices. It is when these ideas are taken as literal truth that an issue is created. This is why I think it is important for people to understand the absolute truth of their physical reality in the body, as well as their spiritual reality.
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LuckyFool What has the person you know gotten into? If it's Buddhism or meditation I can say with certainty he's not brainwashed. Not even close. In fact, he's probably the farthest from that mental state that it is possible to be in modern society.
Most people wear different masks, different hats, in front of different groups of people. You have your job hat, your friends hat, your girlfriend hat, your mom hat, your dad hat... the list goes on and on. Most people change their personalities when they are with different people. Isn't this a self-imposed form of brainwashing?
What if one were to suddenly say, "I feel like burning all of my hats today," and turns to something like meditation or a spiritual practice or devoting their life to something, REALLY devoting their life, and they actually are able to burn those hats and not wear any hats at all? Would their life be better for it? I'd argue it would. You get more out of life being genuine than pretending you're capable of hiding different parts of yourself in front of different people when the fact is most people can see right through to your secret places.
I don't think it's brainwashing to form a new paradigm. It's just a new paradigm! Why would you fault a friend for taking this path?
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When the new paradigm is potentially causing destructive things in what has appeared to be an otherwise stable and happy life it just seems concerning to me.
To impulsively wake up and decide to burn all of my hats today simply because that's what the new me wants, where will it stop? Why did these hats appear in the first place? Did they serve any good purpose in the past? Why does everyone else have these hats? Where do you draw the line between rational thought and emotional being? How can one emotionally exist around everyone else who is "unenlightened" to a thought process free of character. free of rational or objective thinking.
@Melliflue I was really just researching things like scientology, and watching some things like this documentary which I found pretty interesting. + Show Spoiler +
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On April 01 2013 06:42 Japhybaby wrote:
What do i mean by the unknowable? I mean the "cosmic giggles" that science can't explain. What is the purpose of laughter? why do we seek greater understanding of the universe? why are we here in the first place? all of the whys..
It's unknowable or unknown. People pretending to themselves that they have it all figured out doesn't make it so.
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Yes... and no.
Manipulation and influence on a person's perception of themselves and of the world around them can be effected to such an extent that their behavior changes. Often, this will involve probing to discover flaws, or weaknesses, and then exploiting them in such a way as to bring the other person closer. The easiest of these to exploit is something that is at a rock bottom a core part of our existence as a species. Humans are not solitary animals, and the need for approval from an authority figure or social cohort can be an extremely powerful means of enacting change. It tips over into brainwashing, in my opinion, when it is a deliberate action or coordinated set of actions which first attacks any beliefs held by the person to be brainwashed and then provides reinforcement of the alternative view which is to be imposed. (This is generally a cult modus operandi - continually reinforcing that Great Leader is right and all is good so long as you are with them and consistently and maliciously squashing any dissent while cutting off any source of alternate viewpoints that may allow the individual to receive reinforcement or approval from another source.)
It can be quite powerful, but takes time.
Humans as social animals do possess a herd instinct, although in recent history it may be weakening. During the majority of human history, being a loner was not a pro-survival trait. Nearly any injury could cause death, and a solitary human being is generally easy prey (in the long term) for other predators. (Don't agree with me? Go fight a tiger with a stick. Or just survive encountering one that wants to eat you without help from any other human beings. We're just kindof squishy.) As our tool use and group structures have evolved, it's less about straight survival and more about social contracts - if we stay within acceptable limits, we get to be a part of the group and reap the benefits of being a member. Fall too far outside the groupthink, and you are "crazy", ostracized, shunned, or find yourself otherwise having a "very bad time".
Brain washing is really an imprecise, and flexible term - and it all depends on your point of view. We all are educated, indoctrinated, and learn the rules of whatever group we are in from the time we open our eyes. The thing is, if it's normal, it's not indoctrination. If it deviates from your ability to function as a part of society, it's brainwashing. (This is actually even codified in the last Diagnostic Standards Manual of the APA - if something isn't impairing your ability to function in society, you're not crazy. Not that many people pay attention to that part...)
On the other hand, there doesn't exist a drug or technique or such that will allow you to snap your fingers, say a word, and completely alter another persons behavior or perceptions in the more fictional form of "brainwash". (Their are drugs that make it easier to open a person up to manipulation, but it requires active participation from the individual being brainwashed. There were some interesting academic studies in this direction using LSD, but all of that research was ended rather abruptly.)
TL;dr - I think it's all about perception. If you can change someone's perception of themselves or the world, you can make some interesting changes. For good, or for evil. But you can also just tap into pre-existing perceptions if they're powerful enough. (See the Milgram experiment. The natural impulse to obey authority figures you see as legitimate is a quick method to get obedience without all that messy brainwashing.)
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On March 31 2013 22:27 Japhybaby wrote:
Where does your information on multiple personalities come from? Carl Jung believed most people had at least two personalities. Carl Jung himself, even as a child had one personality that was an old man who was connected with ancient parts of humanity and one part of him that was a little boy.
Me, my own inner dialogue is too filled with various voices to even choose a personality. I do know that i have a "shadow" in jungian terms, which scorns me for all of the behaviour that does not meet with my ego's desires.
Discussing these topics is pretty difficult because the words we use are so imprecise.
When looking at it from an esoteric science perspective such as from Carl Jung (who I haven't studied), I'd say each person has hundreds to a few thousand small "I's", that is, we're more of a composition of different wills than a large single personality. We change from moment to moment. The personality/ego is one of these, but a big one which likes to pretend the others don't exist. It's the development of our interacting with others and the outside world, and it sort of follows the evolutionary principle of survival of the fittest - it likes to dominate, overpower opposition, feed and grow.
But it's not the only part of us, we're a complex collage of many processes with no real solid center unless gained through personal efforts, self-observation, and many other things taught in various mystery schools, religions, etc. So in that sense, there are actually many different conflicting things in all of us, and we change all the time.
So we've got many things here. You've got the many small things continually, changing, you've got the overgrown personality/ego, and then you've also got the more ethereal/astral/non-physical/spiritual component which is typically totally obscured because it's such a small signal and the ego is typically so loud and dominate.
This ethereal aspect can connect us, potentially, to others telepathically, dead people, perhaps even ourselves in another life. Again, I haven't read Jung, but I believe when you mention he had two people inside of him and that it involved different parts of humanity, it's not what I'd call a personality/ego necessarily, but rather more of a pure, lucid, connection. This is more of an achievement of personal development, etc, generally by subduing the ego.
On the other hand, it is possible for the ego to be greatly developed and everything else subdued. This is the left-hand path, and it too can gain mystical-type powers if developed to the extreme.
That was the esoteric background just trying to give the foundation for some of this, now more toward the information sources on MPD.
A lot of this has to do with well-known mind-control programs such as MKULTRA and later Monarch programming.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/hidden-knowledge/origins-and-techniques-of-monarch-mind-control/
On March 31 2013 22:27 Japhybaby wrote:
To me, it often feels like we are all already brainwashed. We are told what is valuable when we're young: ie being good at sports, being good looking, being talented. All of these "valuable" traits become part of some of our very important decisions like choosing a mate or a lifestyle (ie careers). Someone who is not happy with his situation will be more inclined to look for ways out...
Absolutely. The only non-brainwashed position, I believe, is one of continually asking questions and being uncertain. Using abductive reasoning as opposed to deductive reasoning, which is based on all the things you said above. As I warned the OP in post #4, it eventually leads to this outlook, at least thats the conclusion I've come up with.
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Something to keep in mind about all the little "I"s... they are all still, at their core, you. Your thoughts, your memories, your actions, blending and mixing. They don't rule you - they are you, just you under different affects.
I only mention this because I am rather familiar with Dissociative Identity Disorder (the new, vogue, hip name for multiple personality disorder) and it expresses in a rather different fashion. All of the little "I"s you hear is the internal monologue, part of the thought process. Different personalities behave differently in the thought stream, as they are dissociated from the main to an extent which far exceeds the normal interior conversations common among people. People with separate distinct personalities don't have an interior monologue - they're removed from it. They no longer have control over the voices, or all of themselves. The old hoary statement "talking to yourself isn't crazy until you start arguing with yourself" has a grain there.
Hrm. Actually think about this again after several years has not been a pleasant experience, even in this brief. I think I'll move along to something with less direct impact. Which is... Jung was Freud's student, and had many interesting ideas. However some of his more philosophical ideas (they can't really be called "scientific" in that it is largely an untestable logical construct based on observation with little opportunity for widespread empiric data gathering) steer close to religious or belief based thought - one of the reasons Jung is respected as a father of psychoanalysis, but not often popular among researchers in the current atmosphere.
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EPT
