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On January 17 2013 12:36 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:57 RowdierBob wrote:On January 17 2013 10:44 clever_us wrote:I think one of the temptations people have when it comes to the recently controversial subject of journalism is to compare the e-sports industry to the broader sports industry. This is a very simplistic view that misses out on a lot of important differences. In a lot of ways, StarCraft II teams and baseball teams couldn't be more different. Bill Baer, an ESPN sportswriter, recently posted on TL to lend his thoughts to the discussion about the Slasher controversy. I decided to respond with a post of my own because I disagreed quite strongly with Mr. Baer on a variety of points. There was one line in particular in Bill's piece that struck me as missing the point. Here it is: In traditional sports, teams and journalists work together, dispassionately. Teams know it is in their best interest to allow them access, even if they may report things they would otherwise want kept secret There is a reason that baseball teams don't object to having their secrets spilled. The reason is that their sources of income are completely insulated from such breaches. According to New York Magazine, the revenue of the New York Yankees can be broken down as follows: Sources of Revenue: Stadium tickets: $117 million (4.2 million tickets at an average of $28 each); YES network TV/radio rights: $60 million; Major League TV and licensing: $30 million; concessions: $10 million; sponsorships and advertising: $30 million; premium seating: $27 million; local radio: $13 million; catering: $5 million; other: $10 million. The introduction of a new player for a team like the Yankees has absolutely no potential to make them any money directly. It has the potential to make money indirectly, for instance by encouraging people to buy tickets to see a new player play. But how the announcement is made doesn't have any effect whatsoever on the team's revenue. This is why, as Baer notes, baseball teams are happy to let journalists do the hype-building and announcements: And yet, when the Phillies finally signed Lee on the 15th, it wasn't the Phillies who broke the news; it was journalist Jon Heyman, then with Sports Illustrated. Heyman's reporting did nothing to reduce the hype around the signing; Amaro did not complain that the surprise would reduce eyeballs on the Phillies web site. In fact, it was never an issue. Here, Baer unwittingly highlights the key difference between traditional sports and E-Sports that invalidates a good portion of his argument. "Amaro did not complain that the surprise would reduce eyeballs on the Phillies web site," because Amaro knew that pageviews on the Phillies web site represented an infinitesimally small portion of his team's revenue and, by extension, his own paycheck. That's not how a team like EG or TL works. E-sports organizations like Evil Geniuses market themselves to sponsors as "New Media Agencies" capable of granting a sponsor exposure to a wide, receptive and valuable audience of fans. As such, every opportunity to secure page views represents an opportunity for an E-sports organization to make money. You may have noticed that evilgeniuses.net does not run advertisements the way many websites do. There are no banners to click on and discover a new online flash game, no announcements that you have won a prize of some kind, and no invitations to online dating sites. What you will see if you look at a page on EG's site is an array of sponsors displayed on every page. EG relies on page view statistics as part of its pitch when recruiting sponsors, and therefore when securing revenue. When EG or TL announce a player, they put a lot of effort into making the announcement look as enticing and interesting as possible. This is because the announcement itself represents an opportunity to give each team's sponsors exposure. That's not how things work in baseball. When Slasher spoils the announcement of a TL player's acquisition, it decreases the number of people who click the actual announcement when it goes up a week later. This decreases the number of people who see the sponsor logos included in that post, and therefore decreases TL's ability to obtain sponsors in the future. Whether Slasher should be allowed to publish such spoiler pieces is not something anyone is disputing. He can do whatever he wants with whatever information he obtains. Whether Slasher is hurting the industry when he spoils announcements is another, more interesting question. The fact is that sabotaging a team's announcement page views sabotages their ability to secure sponsors in the future, and therefore does hurt the industry over time. This is not a concern in traditional sports media because player announcements and other "insider info" like that reported on MLBTradeRumors.com do not cut into MLB team revenues in any way. Nonetheless, Baer makes a direct comparison between MLBTradeRumors and Slasher's work: There is a website solely dedicated to posting rumors about teams and players (MLBTradeRumors.com), and it's very well-respected within the industry. The writers are given press access, players and members of team front offices visit the site daily, and there is no tension between the two sides. Aside from MLBTR, ESPN, FOX Sports, CBS Sports, and a host of other media outlets employ journalists to break news in exactly the way Breslau has done within e-sports. In e-sports, there IS tension between the two sides, and sites dedicated to posting rumors are NOT well-respected within the industry. That's because e-sports is not like regular sports. Does Alex Garfield have a right to prohibit Slasher from publishing spoiler pieces like the one about Snute's signing? Of course not! But he never professed to have this right. However, does Alex Garfield have a right to be mad as hell when Slasher takes 35,000 page views off one of his major player announcements with a spoiler piece? Of course he does. And do e-sports organizations like EG and TL have a right to prefer sharing interviews and inside scoops with the journalism sources that AREN'T screwing them over 24/7? Of course! Do they have a right to cut off communication with Slasher, a demonstrated threat to their ability to recruit sponsors? They absolutely, 100% do! Honestly, I think HuK said it best in a series of tweets earlier today: In the end its pretty simple in my eyes. It a conscious choice of being a tabloid magazine and leaking everything before it happens. Or being a TIME magazine kind of thing and getting the more prestigious interviews, in-depth analysis, and professional aspect of the scene. But you can't really be both when so much of journalism depends on relationships with people in the scene. There is nothing wrong with being either; but u really cant be both. That's what a lot of people don't understand about the Slasher controversy. In the end, it isn't about whether Slasher has a right to publish whatever spoiler pieces he wants. It isn't even about whether Alex Garfield has a right to embargo Slasher. Part of being a good journalist, and I can guarantee you that Bill Baer would agree with this 100%, means staying on good terms with your sources. If Slasher continues screwing over e-sports organizations like EG and TL, then he can't expect to use them as sources in the future. It's as simple as that. I think Slasher has an obligation to report the news. Yes it's important for Slasher to have a good relationship with his sources, but it's also a two-way street. TL and EG can throw a hissy fit and black-ban Slasher from any future inside gossip, rumour, tips etc but would it really be in their interest? Relationships are always a two-way street and I think it would be silly of EG and TL to do something silly like completely removing themselves from any dealings with Slasher. It has a lot of potential to bite them in the ass down the line. This is just my opinion, but I'd rather see both organisations--two of the premiere in the SC2 international e-sports world--use it as a learning experience as to how they might better engage with the e-sports media in the future to stop things like this happening. I'd hope there'd be scope to sit down with Slasher, explain their take on the issue and maybe work with eachother towards a mutually beneficial arrangement in the future. It's much easier to make friends than create enemies. I can understand the frustration of losing out on the promotion of their own news but lashing out at the messenger (Slasher) is not the right option. Take it as a learning opportunity and implement strategies in the future to mitigate risks around significant announcements relating to your team. If Slasher is going to lose them money (and himself indirectly) then it is purely in TL and EG's interests to not work with him in the slightest. Slasher needs to realize that this is not pro sports and that he has to maintain his relationships with teams and that those relationships involve him not hurting their major sources of income. He can still profit in other ways with his insider info. I believe Alex said that he offered him exclusive interviewing rights which Slasher never took him up on. What do you think Slasher gets more off of? Him breaking the news in a poor manner with no analysis and say... 50k people see it and go clicking on TL/EG and maybe a few on his site. Or putting out the info just after TL and EG do and they get maybe 80-100k people viewing things with better hype and he does analysis and then gets one of a kind interviews the next day to put out when the hype is at it's strongest. He then profits from those extra people wanting to see his interviews. Not only does it benefit him in that way but now EG and TL are happy with him and might even give him some future stories if he does a good job. They can work together now. Slasher didn't lose them money, EG and TL make their sponsors happy and get more money from them possibly, and both sides benefit more than the other way.
I can't answer those questions. They're hypothetical for one and questions Slasher himself would have to answer. I have no idea what traffic is like for Slasher and his news reports. How he chooses to report his news isn't the issue here for me.
Offering exclusive interviews is a positive step but if that's all Alex did, he's being lazy quite frankly. He's treating Slasher as an inconvenience rather than a legitimate channel he can work with.
All I'm saying is rather than getting made and (foolishly, IMO) just put a blanket ban on working with Slasher, teams like EG need to take a bit more of a proactive stance in working with members of the media. I think they're being too myopic about their communication and need to realise there are other players in the space who value the information--it's not just about them and their website hits. If they want to be more effective with their PR and communications they need to include Slasher as part of their plans rather than just hope he doesn't find out and post about it.
Imagine next time there is a big signing and EG has it's blanket ban of Slasher in effect. If Slasher gets word of it before it's official do you think he's going to have any loyalty in not posting the info? Of course not. And then we'll be at this thread again with EG once again cranky at having their thunder stolen.
Or they could do something different next time and try work with Slasher to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement when there is big news to be broken.
If it was me, I'd take option B because there are a lot of sources Slasher can garner this info from and I'd be banking on it leaking before the official announcement can be made.
Teams need to learn from these situations about how to better engage with the media, not just use them as a third party PR source. It's fine to bang you chest about Slasher ruining the announcement and threatening not to work with him anymore (which is their right) but, and this is just my opinion, I don't think it would be very clever of them to do that.
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On January 17 2013 13:41 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:36 mrtomjones wrote:On January 17 2013 11:57 RowdierBob wrote:On January 17 2013 10:44 clever_us wrote:I think one of the temptations people have when it comes to the recently controversial subject of journalism is to compare the e-sports industry to the broader sports industry. This is a very simplistic view that misses out on a lot of important differences. In a lot of ways, StarCraft II teams and baseball teams couldn't be more different. Bill Baer, an ESPN sportswriter, recently posted on TL to lend his thoughts to the discussion about the Slasher controversy. I decided to respond with a post of my own because I disagreed quite strongly with Mr. Baer on a variety of points. There was one line in particular in Bill's piece that struck me as missing the point. Here it is: In traditional sports, teams and journalists work together, dispassionately. Teams know it is in their best interest to allow them access, even if they may report things they would otherwise want kept secret There is a reason that baseball teams don't object to having their secrets spilled. The reason is that their sources of income are completely insulated from such breaches. According to New York Magazine, the revenue of the New York Yankees can be broken down as follows: Sources of Revenue: Stadium tickets: $117 million (4.2 million tickets at an average of $28 each); YES network TV/radio rights: $60 million; Major League TV and licensing: $30 million; concessions: $10 million; sponsorships and advertising: $30 million; premium seating: $27 million; local radio: $13 million; catering: $5 million; other: $10 million. The introduction of a new player for a team like the Yankees has absolutely no potential to make them any money directly. It has the potential to make money indirectly, for instance by encouraging people to buy tickets to see a new player play. But how the announcement is made doesn't have any effect whatsoever on the team's revenue. This is why, as Baer notes, baseball teams are happy to let journalists do the hype-building and announcements: And yet, when the Phillies finally signed Lee on the 15th, it wasn't the Phillies who broke the news; it was journalist Jon Heyman, then with Sports Illustrated. Heyman's reporting did nothing to reduce the hype around the signing; Amaro did not complain that the surprise would reduce eyeballs on the Phillies web site. In fact, it was never an issue. Here, Baer unwittingly highlights the key difference between traditional sports and E-Sports that invalidates a good portion of his argument. "Amaro did not complain that the surprise would reduce eyeballs on the Phillies web site," because Amaro knew that pageviews on the Phillies web site represented an infinitesimally small portion of his team's revenue and, by extension, his own paycheck. That's not how a team like EG or TL works. E-sports organizations like Evil Geniuses market themselves to sponsors as "New Media Agencies" capable of granting a sponsor exposure to a wide, receptive and valuable audience of fans. As such, every opportunity to secure page views represents an opportunity for an E-sports organization to make money. You may have noticed that evilgeniuses.net does not run advertisements the way many websites do. There are no banners to click on and discover a new online flash game, no announcements that you have won a prize of some kind, and no invitations to online dating sites. What you will see if you look at a page on EG's site is an array of sponsors displayed on every page. EG relies on page view statistics as part of its pitch when recruiting sponsors, and therefore when securing revenue. When EG or TL announce a player, they put a lot of effort into making the announcement look as enticing and interesting as possible. This is because the announcement itself represents an opportunity to give each team's sponsors exposure. That's not how things work in baseball. When Slasher spoils the announcement of a TL player's acquisition, it decreases the number of people who click the actual announcement when it goes up a week later. This decreases the number of people who see the sponsor logos included in that post, and therefore decreases TL's ability to obtain sponsors in the future. Whether Slasher should be allowed to publish such spoiler pieces is not something anyone is disputing. He can do whatever he wants with whatever information he obtains. Whether Slasher is hurting the industry when he spoils announcements is another, more interesting question. The fact is that sabotaging a team's announcement page views sabotages their ability to secure sponsors in the future, and therefore does hurt the industry over time. This is not a concern in traditional sports media because player announcements and other "insider info" like that reported on MLBTradeRumors.com do not cut into MLB team revenues in any way. Nonetheless, Baer makes a direct comparison between MLBTradeRumors and Slasher's work: There is a website solely dedicated to posting rumors about teams and players (MLBTradeRumors.com), and it's very well-respected within the industry. The writers are given press access, players and members of team front offices visit the site daily, and there is no tension between the two sides. Aside from MLBTR, ESPN, FOX Sports, CBS Sports, and a host of other media outlets employ journalists to break news in exactly the way Breslau has done within e-sports. In e-sports, there IS tension between the two sides, and sites dedicated to posting rumors are NOT well-respected within the industry. That's because e-sports is not like regular sports. Does Alex Garfield have a right to prohibit Slasher from publishing spoiler pieces like the one about Snute's signing? Of course not! But he never professed to have this right. However, does Alex Garfield have a right to be mad as hell when Slasher takes 35,000 page views off one of his major player announcements with a spoiler piece? Of course he does. And do e-sports organizations like EG and TL have a right to prefer sharing interviews and inside scoops with the journalism sources that AREN'T screwing them over 24/7? Of course! Do they have a right to cut off communication with Slasher, a demonstrated threat to their ability to recruit sponsors? They absolutely, 100% do! Honestly, I think HuK said it best in a series of tweets earlier today: In the end its pretty simple in my eyes. It a conscious choice of being a tabloid magazine and leaking everything before it happens. Or being a TIME magazine kind of thing and getting the more prestigious interviews, in-depth analysis, and professional aspect of the scene. But you can't really be both when so much of journalism depends on relationships with people in the scene. There is nothing wrong with being either; but u really cant be both. That's what a lot of people don't understand about the Slasher controversy. In the end, it isn't about whether Slasher has a right to publish whatever spoiler pieces he wants. It isn't even about whether Alex Garfield has a right to embargo Slasher. Part of being a good journalist, and I can guarantee you that Bill Baer would agree with this 100%, means staying on good terms with your sources. If Slasher continues screwing over e-sports organizations like EG and TL, then he can't expect to use them as sources in the future. It's as simple as that. I think Slasher has an obligation to report the news. Yes it's important for Slasher to have a good relationship with his sources, but it's also a two-way street. TL and EG can throw a hissy fit and black-ban Slasher from any future inside gossip, rumour, tips etc but would it really be in their interest? Relationships are always a two-way street and I think it would be silly of EG and TL to do something silly like completely removing themselves from any dealings with Slasher. It has a lot of potential to bite them in the ass down the line. This is just my opinion, but I'd rather see both organisations--two of the premiere in the SC2 international e-sports world--use it as a learning experience as to how they might better engage with the e-sports media in the future to stop things like this happening. I'd hope there'd be scope to sit down with Slasher, explain their take on the issue and maybe work with eachother towards a mutually beneficial arrangement in the future. It's much easier to make friends than create enemies. I can understand the frustration of losing out on the promotion of their own news but lashing out at the messenger (Slasher) is not the right option. Take it as a learning opportunity and implement strategies in the future to mitigate risks around significant announcements relating to your team. If Slasher is going to lose them money (and himself indirectly) then it is purely in TL and EG's interests to not work with him in the slightest. Slasher needs to realize that this is not pro sports and that he has to maintain his relationships with teams and that those relationships involve him not hurting their major sources of income. He can still profit in other ways with his insider info. I believe Alex said that he offered him exclusive interviewing rights which Slasher never took him up on. What do you think Slasher gets more off of? Him breaking the news in a poor manner with no analysis and say... 50k people see it and go clicking on TL/EG and maybe a few on his site. Or putting out the info just after TL and EG do and they get maybe 80-100k people viewing things with better hype and he does analysis and then gets one of a kind interviews the next day to put out when the hype is at it's strongest. He then profits from those extra people wanting to see his interviews. Not only does it benefit him in that way but now EG and TL are happy with him and might even give him some future stories if he does a good job. They can work together now. Slasher didn't lose them money, EG and TL make their sponsors happy and get more money from them possibly, and both sides benefit more than the other way. Offering exclusive interviews is a positive step but if that's all Alex did, he's being lazy quite frankly. He's treating Slasher as an inconvenience rather than a legitimate channel he can work with.Or they could do something different next time and try work with Slasher to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement when there is big news to be broken.
What are you arguing? You say Garfield is being lazy for offering Slasher "only" exclusive interviews, but then you say that EG should work with Slasher to come to a "mutually beneficial arrangement." What is that mutually beneficial arrangement when we're dealing with a journalist? All he cares about are page views, and everyone is screaming at him with a better way to generate those views. But he basically refuses to listen.
It doesn't even seem like he knows what he's doing. He tweeted recently that
I have always put the players first and foremost in my content, including @LiveOnThree. The story is not about me.
lolwut? If he's putting the players first, and the players/their managers tell him that stealing views from their announcements literally takes money from their pockets, he would listen and try to change. He would understand that leaking Snute's signing was a beyond-dick thing to do. He would understand why people are mad at him, as opposed to saying "Yeah well, I'm used to it." Whenever someone says "Fuck the haters," they mean one of two things. One, they know the haters don't know what they're talking about and should shut up. Or two, the "haters" are making legitimate points, but they refuse to listen and change. I'm beginning to understand more and more that he's the second type of guy.
I just....people are trumpeting the majesty of some kind of "Journalistic Magic Happy Times" where journalism should be completely separate from the industry they're reporting on. That doesn't happen in any industry at all. Every journalist relies on sources and companies and their connections with the industry itself to make their stories. With that interconnectedness, the journalists agree to only help their industry. They're not out to hurt it, they're out to help it. And in baseball, reporting a leak about trading players doesn't hurt the team at all. There's literally no harm done to the Yankees when their trades are leaked.
However, when you break "Snute to Liquid," you just shit on TeamLiquid's announcement and did more harm than leaking a trade could ever do in regular sports. The scale between what ESPN does and what Slasher does is so disproportionate, I'm still confused as to how people can conflate the two.
At least on Lo3 Slasher admits that he should make the content more than shitting out "Snute to Liquid" in the title and "Snute to Liquid" in the body of the article. At least that little bit of Garfield's rant got through to him.
tl;dr: Leaking trades in other sports doesn't actively hurt the industry. Entire websites built around leaking MLB trades, as the op stated, doesn't hurt baseball at all. Slasher leaking "Snute to Liquid" or other big events that would generate a massive hype train, and therefore increased page views and sponsor money, does way more harm to the teams than it helps him.
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There are plenty of things EG/TL could do if they were a bit proactive with managing media.
I'm not going to write them a media strategy here and now but what I'm saying is they need to engage with Slasher as part of an overall communications strategy for making their announcements. Interaction with media outlets shouldn't be an after thought or oversights but part of the process. I'm not saying EG/TL doesn't do this--I have no idea what their strategies are when making these announcements.
But clearly something has gone wrong for both EG and TL recently with big announcements and getting mad and making threats at Slasher is the wrong way to go about it (again, just my opinion as an outsider). Slasher isn't going away and like many have said, it can be pretty difficult to keep a lid on many of these announcements.
The folk that run EG/TL are smart operators and I'm sure they could sit down and work out a way to stop this happening in the future. All I'm advocating is media involvement should be part of the process--not a risk to mitigate.
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I can't get past how the CEO of EG, Alex Garfield, behaved during this entire fiasco. It gave me some insight into the corporate culture of EG and therefore the sometimes poor public behaviour of Idra, iNcontroL and SirScoots. There is a glaring consistency in how often this gang allows themselves to trash other people using the LO3 show as a platform of hate.
My intention was to sit back and be entertained by engaging conversation, and the sometimes silly but amusing antics of iNcontroL; instead I came away completely stressed. I can't help but associate this feeling of disappointment and loss with their sponsors' products. What a shame.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Bill Baer, he summed up everything I thought about Slasher's job perfectly. Slasher definitely isn't in the wrong here, it's EG for initially leaking information. If EG knew the potential loss in revenue from any leaks, then he should have provided consideration for any parties that knew about the leak to keep it under wraps. If any of those parties still leaked? Then there should have been law suits.
I want to make a point about something a lot of people are mentioning, which is the "EG receive revenue mostly from ads while sports teams receive revenue from sponsorships/whatever"
That is true, and you would be a fool to argue otherwise. However, as Bill Baer aptly pointed out in the original post - Leaks happen all the time, and these organisations should adapt to the leaks.
What this means is that EG should expect that information would be leaked, and instead of just making content for an announcement that a player is joining the team, they should create content in anticipation of a leak so the content is still valid, will interest viewers, and thus can still generate revenue.
A journalist may be able to obtain information that a player is joining, but it would be much more difficult to receive information that the player is attending events X, Y, Z due to joining the team. That the player is joining the team for reasons X, Y, Z. etc etc
There are a variety of additional content that viewers will be interested in regardless of knowledge of the leak. EG should be focusing on that content, not trying to capitalise on the initial announcement because it should be expected that a leak is possible.
Lastly, in terms of ITG in relation to this controversy, I need to point something out.
I think it was completely underhanded of DJWheat (I am assuming he controls who comes onto the show, if not, then replace him with whoever is) to bring TotalBiscuit on. Understand that I don't mean TotalBiscuit doesn't have the credentials to speak on this matter, it is clear he does. But the rationale for bringing TotalBiscuit on was ridiculously underhanded because it was clearly hinted that they brought him on ONLY because they thought he would support Alex Garfield's views. He manages a team, and it would be fair to assume a situation like this has transpired that is relevant to TotalBiscuit (if not, then he can sympathise as a manager), who is TotalBiscuit likely going to agree with here? There's clearly going to be bias in his arguments because someone like Slasher can also affect the revenue that TotalBiscuit's team makes.
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United States30 Posts
I watched the show LIVE and read a lot (not all) of whats been said and there are two things
1. This isn't about Slasher or Alex being right. This is about to two important groups in our community that are at odds. Until both journalists and teams figure this out all of e-sports will suffer.
2. I don't think the argument holds that EG should offer Slasher exclusive interviews or something even better not to leak the information.If you give Slasher the exclusive interview, for "Snute to liquid" for example, to keep him quiet what happens when journalist #2 find out and you cant give him the exclusive "Snute to liquid" interview cuz you've given it to Slasher. So what do you give journalist #2, and then #3 cuz eventually your going to run out of things to give journalists to keep them quiet.
Teams need better relationships with journalists but its not a perfect world, and its obvious that Slasher and Alex can't work with each other because they're competing with each other over the same information and since they work in the same space they see only one choice, so they end up saying F*CK YOU and hurting each other for their own good. And what their really doing is hurting everyone who cares about E-Sports.
They're in a no win situation, the Kobayashi Maru, and as Kirk has taught us there is only one way to beat the no-win situation. They need to change the rules of the game and the teams, players, journalists, commentators, developers and even the fans are all connected. We impact each other whether we like it or not. Blizzard is realizing this and now its time for us as a community to accept this truth as well or our community will deteriorate.
Journalists and teams need to step up and come together on ground rules that are mutually beneficial or at least agree to live and let live, and not keep cutting the legs out from underneath each other just for some page views. Until both journalists and the teams figure this out ALL OF E-SPORTS WILL SUFFER.
--KobayshiMaru
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I completely agree that it was EG's fault and that Slasher was not in the wrong. If anyone saw destiny's analysis on the whole thing he makes really good points and shows why Slasher did nothing wrong and EG is just trying to pass their own blame on others.
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My thoughts:
1) Of course a journalist would stick up for a journalist.
2) Slasher did nothing wrong as a journalist. Morally? I believe so. Of course he's going to be selfish as EG wanted to be selfish. But you know what, EG has something to lose - sponsors. Slasher does not. Does it hurt e-sports, I THINK SO. I didn't look TOOOOOO much into this, but didn't EG lose Steel Series or something as a sponsor? Even if they didn't lose Steel Series because of this, I'm sure their sponsors WHO FUND THE PLAYERS' SALARIES (mean pays for our beloved Jaedong's salary, which gives US, the viewers, MORE EXPOSURE) are upset over this! (Jaedong WOULD NOT BE STREAMING FOR US if he were still on a KESPA team.)
3) Of course EG is also selfish. EG is a business. Much like the Green Back Packers is a franchise that is trying to make a profit or the Los Angeles Lakers are a franchise trying to find revenue anywhere they can. So THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with a BUSINESS TRYING TO MAKE MONEY.
4) Cool that a ESPN writer is even hearing about this ^ ^
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All i have to say is this:
If slasher wouldn't release informations someone else would. And then slasher would lost his credibility and everybody would see him as EG bitch. (Sorry for words but it's the truth)
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On January 17 2013 17:00 IMHope wrote:
I completely agree that it was EG's fault and that Slasher was not in the wrong. If anyone saw destiny's analysis on the whole thing he makes really good points and shows why Slasher did nothing wrong and EG is just trying to pass their own blame on others.
This ^^.
Its really hard to believe that with this information being leaked by EG, their response is blaming the free lance journalist for reporting news that is already out there! Obviously, this had a big impact and ramifications for EG and especially Garfield but trying to dump the blame on someone else who is not at fault is just really childish. Something I am a little disappointed in, considering this is CEO of the biggest Team in E-sports.
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I feel the user rotegirte hit the nail on the head with his insightful post. In the industry where pageviews are indirectly the only source of revenue, information is power, and all the sides in the industry are fighting for it. Although it can be argued that in the current state of the industry, mutual cooperation can be more beneficial, I personally think we have passed that point, and there is no need to protect esports in bubble wrap. Especially when party like EG feels entitled to said resources, and their CEO throws a tantrum when certain people in the industry don't share his view that EG should get the biggest part of the cake.
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This ESPN guy doesn't get it. You as journalists get press days and shit so the knowledge is public to pretty much anyone with a god damn press pass. And you benefit off of giving your interview to your company so you get money. Journalists go to PRESS CONFERENCES and the teams announce a lot of shit TO JOURNALISTS TO WRITE ABOUT. NOT LEAKING INFORMATION ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. Get your head out of your high horse for being a shitty ESPN press guy and go shove it up your ass
User was temp banned for this post.
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Thanks for all the responses (except for Random_Guy09, obviously, hahaha). I didn't think I'd get anywhere near this much feedback, just felt like adding my perspective. Between here, Reddit, and Twitter, I'd like to respond to everybody but there's been a lot. So, just know that I've read almost all of it and appreciate it greatly.
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Comparing a small culture growing as E-sports is to Baseball that is massive and has alot more money and views then what e-sports has seems unfair.
Doesn't justify anything yes in baseball, leak transfers wont hurt a team but in E-sports with pretty much no money compared to baseball that get money from view will hurt a team.
I just feel that its unfair to make that comparison, maybe info could have been handled better but also slasher should know what to do and what not to do with leak info not just to blast it out.
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if they don't want to be compared to baseball then stop entering every story with "we are the Yankees of Esports"
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slasher works for gamespot. gamespots and esports dont really go well together in the minds of most esports fanatics. slasher is attempting to legitimize his organization int he esports world by being the FIRST place to report big news. slasher would be an idiot and a TERRIBLE employee if he isnt doing what he is doing. if gamespot keeps providing these esports happening before the rest of the esports world does, then suddenly gamespot is a legitimate source for esports news. good on slasher, oh and, fuck alex garfield once again, what an arrogant prick. eg makes me fucking sick anymore.
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Never a fan of Slasher, but have to say this backlash against him is retarded. This post nails it. Slasher was doing his job, he can't be faulted for that. If you don't want information leaked, don't let it leak. That's like complaining that your cat killed and ate your bird when you left them in a cage together...
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On January 17 2013 18:36 Harpolean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 17:00 IMHope wrote:
I completely agree that it was EG's fault and that Slasher was not in the wrong. If anyone saw destiny's analysis on the whole thing he makes really good points and shows why Slasher did nothing wrong and EG is just trying to pass their own blame on others. This ^^. Its really hard to believe that with this information being leaked by EG, their response is blaming the free lance journalist for reporting news that is already out there! Obviously, this had a big impact and ramifications for EG and especially Garfield but trying to dump the blame on someone else who is not at fault is just really childish. Something I am a little disappointed in, considering this is CEO of the biggest Team in E-sports.
I don’t think people are arguing that Slasher did anything wrong. When the discussion started on ITG, Geoff went to great lengths to state that Slasher to say that. The issue that Nazgul put it is that Slasher wants to be part of the teams events at a professional level, yet during also tries to use his connections during that time to find and leak information that is valuable to the teams.
Every team owner has the a similar opinion on the matter, that having Slasher leak these things early cuts into their revenue. Because of this, their relationship with Slasher is going to become more combative and they may have to deny him the access to their players he previously enjoyed and allowed him to do the quality coverage at events.
Nazgul has is right when he says it is bad relationship management. If Slasher wants the access with teams to do the work he does, the he needs to understand that he may lose that if he keeps undercutting their press releases. There is nothing ethical or moral about the argument. It is all about how combative the relationship between the press and the teams gets. The team owners are trying to say that this aspect is making more combative and they think it can be avoided if the press work with them a little bit. The press, like Slasher, do not need to agree, but it is a discussion worth having.
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On January 17 2013 08:07 clever_us wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 07:05 sAsImre wrote:On January 17 2013 06:44 EG.lectR wrote:On January 17 2013 06:37 echO [W] wrote:On January 17 2013 05:18 EG.lectR wrote:
"Ultimately, EG's issue with Breslau's reporting is their fault. If they want information used the way they want it to be used, they need to withhold that information as they see fit, which is certainly their right."
This assumes that information is always between one party or parties which are under the same level of control. That is not the case within e-sports and there is no body which monitors that information or those conversations. Teams talk freely, players talk freely, and there are too many people involved in normal transactions [in this case, team transactions] to claim that one party can control it all and you cannot, as one entity, change that at this time. Which is how it works in the real world in professional sports across the board. GMs talk to other GMs, agents talk to other agents, players talk to other players, and of course people within the organizations that are way bigger than eSports organizations also talk. Across the board that you're referencing is a body called the NFL, MLB, NHL, and others similarly named which have specific contracts across their franchised teams which prevent them from distributing this information before an appropriate time. Even in the event of leaks, those governing bodies can quickly replace people who they feel have leaked information at no detriment to the organization. That is not the case with e-sports. Not only do those types of contracts not exist across e-sports teams, but there is no governing team body to enforce them. Plus, those teams (the e-sports ones) mentioned are incredibly fragile and operate entirely differently between organizations. we're losing money qq, let's hang someone. AFAIK such a rule doesn't work in soccer/every major sport in Europe and things are leaked all the time, doesn't look like the bayern munchen, top rugby or handball clubs are failing despite their absence of exclusivity on news lol. If your business model is awful enough to rely on getting such annoucements on your own website, well i'm glad your company (not specifically eg) is going down. funnily there is no pbm with kespa teams as far as business model goes, maybe the fact they rely on strong sponsorship and a real league instead of online jokes is the core of the answer... This is downright moronic. Major sports teams do not work the way e-sports teams do. Baseball teams get their revenue largely from stadium tickets and TV/radio rights. E-sports get their revenue from sponsors, and they do that by promising their sponsors exposure. If Slasher cuts 35,000 views off an announcement post by spoiling it a week in advance, that directly sabotages the statistics EG uses to recruit sponsors and therefore secure income. When you say "doesn't look like top rugby or handball clubs are failing despite their absence of exclusivity on news lol" you illustrate exactly how little you understand the sweeping differences between the business model of traditional sports and e-sports.
Team X has scouted player A of Team Y for a long time. He has 6months of his contract left, he's from a lesser known league.
X now approaches Y and says "He we'd like to get your player. We would pay 500k for his 6month long contract. Keep in mind in 6months you get nothing".
They also approach player A at the same time "We offer you a 500k yearly salary if you join us".
Well, Y wants to get _some_ money and A thinks 500k is good enough. So they both agree.
Now in another situation someone leaks that X is interested in A.
Now suddenly team Z (and more) realize there is this player A on the market. And if X is interested in him, he's probably not that bad. So they focus on him for a while and think he will also be an asset to their team.
And Z is offering Y 750k transfer fee and A a 600k salary. (Of course X can top this offer now but that's not the point).
Where do you think will A go to?
And do you think X would have benefited from no leak?
Leaks in sports cost teams a shitton of money or even players.
On January 17 2013 12:18 HolyExlxF wrote:
My issue, and iNcontroL and TB commented on it as well, is that Slasher puts zero effort into these releases. He COULD get that juicy interview if he held out longer, he COULD be the first with player access at an event, but he prefers the one-liner repeated-byline stories. As TB and Garfield both observed, it just seems like Slasher is being deliberately lazy in his journalism.
Slasher WILL piss off people & teams. But he is also an asset & tool which can be used by the teams - so disregarding him completely is stupid & immature.
The thing is - balance. Sometimes he pisses a team of if the news alone is big enough (Jaedong), but sometimes he should work with the team together ( so yeah, I agree he has some work to do himself^^)
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The problem with comparing e-sports and actual sports is that website eyeballs/clicks actually generate most of the revenue for e-sports teams (generate revenue for sponsors => money for teams). By contrast, professional sports teams get most of their money from ticket sales, tv contracts, radio contracts etc, things that aren't tied to their website traffic.
When he says the Phillies didn't care about the website eyeballs, well that's because its a minuscule part of their revenue generation. They'd rather have hype for hype's sake because the only way to get access to the Phillies playing baseball is through one of their revenue generation channels (tv/radio broadcast, tickets to games).
On the other hand, the only way for EG to get money is really through the eyeballs and clicks on their webpage and the number of eyeballs they can generate for sponsors. They don't get revenue sharing from MLG, they don't have tv partnerships. That's why Alex cares about this matter so much more than the professional sports teams. This simply isn't an apples to apples comparison.
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EPT
