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On January 08 2013 02:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 02:37 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:19 decado90 wrote:On January 07 2013 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them. He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja. Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument. It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012. TvP: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=maps&id=500&part=games&matchup=TvP&league=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2013&to_month=1&to_day=7&action=UpdateBut, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics. So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga. a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself? "You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO." - DarkLordOlli Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead? But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic.
You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight.
Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win?
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On January 08 2013 02:37 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 02:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:19 decado90 wrote:On January 07 2013 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them. He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja. Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument. It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012. TvP: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=maps&id=500&part=games&matchup=TvP&league=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2013&to_month=1&to_day=7&action=UpdateBut, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics. So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga. a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself? "You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO." - DarkLordOlli Those statistics are inflated by Protoss doing Blink all-ins on Antiga. Playing macro PvT on Antiga is incredibly difficult.
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Austria24414 Posts
On January 08 2013 02:48 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 02:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:37 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:19 decado90 wrote:On January 07 2013 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them. He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja. Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument. It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012. TvP: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=maps&id=500&part=games&matchup=TvP&league=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2013&to_month=1&to_day=7&action=UpdateBut, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics. So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga. a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself? "You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO." - DarkLordOlli Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead? But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic. You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight. Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win?
See post below you. As for you, you're probably 12 years old and haven't learned how to probably formulate an argument yet. Don't worry kiddo, we've all been there. That's why you avoid the question and go back to your statistics. According to those, zerg is also not winning everything! Statistics tell no stories.
User was warned for this post
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On January 08 2013 02:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 02:48 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:37 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:19 decado90 wrote:On January 07 2013 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them. He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja. Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument. It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012. TvP: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=maps&id=500&part=games&matchup=TvP&league=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2013&to_month=1&to_day=7&action=UpdateBut, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics. So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga. a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself? "You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO." - DarkLordOlli Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead? But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic. You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight. Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win? See post below you. As for you, you're probably 12 years old and haven't learned how to probably formulate an argument yet. Don't worry kiddo, we've all been there. That's why you avoid the question and go back to your statistics. According to those, zerg is also not winning everything! Statistics tell no stories.
Total for 1st and 2nd Place after patch:
• Protoss - 24 • Zerg - 25 • Terran - 9
Where do you come up with this stuff? Without statistics you're just spewing random opinion.
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Singapore147 Posts
I think Flash is going to be one of the best Terrans in the world if he isn't already. His macro is insane. Someone said he seemed like a less cocky version of Bomber and I agree. If his decision making and understanding of the game improve a bit he's going to be unstoppable. Especially if they introduce mech friendly maps :p (and nerf the infestor like Browder said he would XD)
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Austria24414 Posts
On January 08 2013 03:04 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 02:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:48 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:37 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:19 decado90 wrote:On January 07 2013 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them. He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja. Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument. It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012. TvP: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=maps&id=500&part=games&matchup=TvP&league=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2013&to_month=1&to_day=7&action=UpdateBut, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics. So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga. a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself? "You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO." - DarkLordOlli Wow, that was the most incredible argument I've ever seen. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase that. "A map that favors intelligent terrans". Happy now? My point still stands, it's one game on Antiga Shipyard, a map every protoss absolutely despises unless it's PvP or they want something to blink all in on. Now can you please not be stupid and make real arguments instead? But before that inevitably doesn't happen, why don't you tell me how to take a third base on Antiga as protoss against what Flash did. I'm sure you know better than every protoss out there and HerO too. But maybe don't do it in here because this is going far off topic. You're sitting here saying this, and I'm just laughing that it was a Protoss favored map in 2012. Your argument holds no weight. Yea, it must be brutal for Protoss to play on a map they are favored on. How could Hero have ever hoped to win? See post below you. As for you, you're probably 12 years old and haven't learned how to probably formulate an argument yet. Don't worry kiddo, we've all been there. That's why you avoid the question and go back to your statistics. According to those, zerg is also not winning everything! Statistics tell no stories. Total for 1st and 2nd Place after patch: • Protoss - 24 • Zerg - 25 • Terran - 9 Where do you come up with this stuff? Without statistics you're just spewing random opinion.
Premier tournament results:
Zerg 1st & 2nd Combined: 12 Protoss 1st & 2nd Combined: 6 Terran 1st & 2nd Combined: 2
Events counted:
GSL, MLG, IPL, OGN. TSL, NASL
Not counting the WCS events because too much randomness involved, too many people dropping out, too many seeds for foreigners, etc. So there's your statistics. Now please finally answer my question, how does protoss take a third on Antiga? If you still won't answer, this "discussion" ends here and your opinion is absolutely worth nothing because you obviously are not able to rationally look at gameplay instead of brainless statistics that don't tell you how many blink all ins or other protoss cheese happened on Antiga because you can't properly take a third vs a good terran.
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to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs
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On January 08 2013 02:29 Wingblade wrote: Riddle me this: If Flash is Code S level, why is he even playing in the Up and Downs? Shouldn't he be able to roll through Code A and hop directly to Code S? Bottom line, Flash is a Code A level player(albeit: a topping Code A player, and being "code a" isn't exactly an insult). He's had FLASHES(get it?) of brilliance, but there are still obvious holes in his play. Flash is still improving and he is obviously better than he were in last season Code A. Now he dropped only because tie-breaker and not that he performed worse than MC.
Nevertheless, as he is now, there is no way that Flash won't advance directly into Code S next season.
EDIT: Just saw that Taeja was 4:0 in his Up&Down group. Judging from yesterday, he is not so much above Flash as regular Code-S to Code-A level.
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On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best.
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On January 08 2013 03:47 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best. a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first.
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On January 08 2013 02:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 02:37 decado90 wrote:On January 08 2013 02:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 08 2013 02:19 decado90 wrote:On January 07 2013 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 07 2013 21:07 Elroi wrote: I don't know how how good Life, Parting etc (the eSF (?)) players are. But I think Flash is the best proleague player. If you look at the way he played yesterday he clearly is better than Hero and Taeja. He literally was playing much better than them. He wasn't "clearly better" than them. He played Antiga perfectly but it was Antiga. There's a reason why protoss hate this map and considering how it went, HerO put up a great fight. You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO. Didn't see the game vs Taeja. Ah, the good ol' "Antiga" argument. It's funny that it's claimed as such a 'great' Terran map, yet Terran had sub 50% winrates on it in both TvZ and TvP in 2012. TvP: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=maps&id=500&part=games&matchup=TvP&league=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2013&to_month=1&to_day=7&action=UpdateBut, I guess you and all the other people that blindly spew shit you heard Idra say don't care about statistics. So, yea I agree with you. Protoss can't beat Terran on Antiga. a) Your arguments are horrible, b) I've never watched Idra stream even once and c) I also wrote a quick summary of what happened earlier. Maybe you noticed that I said "Flash played the map perfectly". Maybe not every terran does that. Should I explain to you why protoss hate the map or are you intelligent enough to figure it out yourself? "You can't take one game on a terran favored map and call him better than HerO." - DarkLordOlli Those statistics are inflated by Protoss doing Blink all-ins on Antiga. Playing macro PvT on Antiga is incredibly difficult. point is the people who Hero dropped a game recently include monchi, ret and Babyk. Those players are obviously good, but code s? that's just the importance of Bo1.
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Still too much hype surrounding him from BW. Feels like another ForGG, which is disappointing because of how amazing he was in BW.
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Right now ? Code A.
Not like that means Flash being bad, or he isn't improving, but the truth.
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On January 08 2013 02:08 convention wrote: How is the system for Code A odd? If he would have won his last BO3, he would be in Code S. He lost, so he goes to Up-and-Downs. The u-d are very unforgiving, if you want to go to Code S then you have to win all of your games, otherwise you rely on luck. This is where our opinion differs, but not drastically. Less games in a series is more luck-based than more games, and the GSL is a lot of the former unfortunately. Like I said in my post, it's not hard to tailor strategies for one specific player. Flash (and some of the other newer players) have to rely on their quick assimilation of SC2 and their natural tendencies to succeed.
They might have some outside help regarding the players they're facing, but unlike everyone else, they haven't been around to have a lot of that knowledge. Where their natural ability, mindset and mechanics come into play is those longer series, in my opinion at least.
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If the UnD matches were bo3 Flash would be in Code S no problem.
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Just give him time and he will be transformed into one of the best players. FlaSh is still like 19? so he has plenty of time for improvements. His BW mechanics aren't going anywhere neither.
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On January 08 2013 04:51 1Dhalism wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 03:47 convention wrote:On January 08 2013 03:17 1Dhalism wrote: to be honest the reason Flash didnt qualify for code S is probably because KTF fielded him in proleague. That was a horrible decision; between tiredness, wasting bo1 strategies, and allowing your opponents to study you(something koreans are very good at) there was a very slim chance of him making it out of UnDs What about Taeja? He was fielded in the proleague, and still manage to dominate his U-D group. Which is why everyone is saying Flash might be good, but is not the best. a) his matches where a day apart b) who knows how he wouldve performed in UnDs if he had won 4 games c) he is a lot more experienced then flash, and probably has more strategies that he is capable of executing well d) his UnD group was a lot weaker. And as far as coaches decision to field him - they picked him as 3rd player, not first. Stop making excuses for Flash. Man. He lost. He is not a top code S player. He probably is good enough to be low Code S right now. I dont even see why there is a discussion on this. He has failed twice. I fully suspect that he will continue improving and he has some amazing games played already. He is just not at the top yet.
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Anyone else notice that LiquidHero forgot to start his twilight in his game vs Flash? He didn't commit to colo tech and his twilight started at 10:52 despite sitting on a lot of resources.
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