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On December 31 2012 12:57 cakepie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 12:49 cakepie wrote:
Fundamental scumhunting is bread and butter for town and blue alike, in order to build strong cases.
Also brush and floss daily! So cheesy when I read it again. ----- I know I'm just a boring VT, but if anyone would go over my play and critique specific bits I would really appreciate it!I already know my logical flaw, which Chrom caught: FC could be anything other than RB and still lead to Chrom+Cora RB pair. I was tunneling too hard at FC as one of (scum RB, town RB, or VT) with confirmation bias from Syl's roleblock accounting attempts (town RB read) to see the other possibilities.
The activity and thought you put into the game will get you a long is a huge positive in your play. As long as you keep up the effort, you'll improve very quickly =)
As for other things, I think we've gone over most of them in our PM conversations. As a general bit, I think you want to make the game more technical and complex than it actually is. The game is very simple: find one player that is scummy, and pressure him. Don't try to devise "tricks" and "traps." Being straightforward and direct is almost always a good thing - especially in newbie games.
Also, while I really liked your roleblock analysis, be careful of making too many assumptions in your analysis. You had Syl pegged as the "town RB" and it was pretty clearly wrong. Try to avoid setup/blue-role speculation without very concrete and straightforward information. The game is more about scum-hunting than anything else.
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cakepie the biggest thing I think you can improve on is your love of analyzing the "wrong" things.
You should focus more on analyzing the players. Setup stuff CAN work, but more often than not it just wastes your time or has unintended drawbacks.
Like, if the game went a bit better for scum and Cora didn't feel the need to claim town RB for whatever reason, you would have totally outted your own town RB. Because mafia always has an information advantage over you.
Sure, the mafia could have deduced him too, even earlier. But they didn't and there's really no reason to point their attention towards it. Some things you don't need to immedeatly share with everyone.
I know I just said what Hapa said, but YOLO.
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On December 31 2012 13:28 Dandel Ion wrote:
I know I just said what Hapa said, but YOLO.
<3
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On December 31 2012 13:06 Hapahauli wrote:
Also, while I really liked your roleblock analysis, be careful of making too many assumptions in your analysis. You had Syl pegged as the "town RB" and it was pretty clearly wrong. Try to avoid setup/blue-role speculation without very concrete and straightforward information. The game is more about scum-hunting than anything else.
Yeah, that was a really awful flaw in the logic.
Although I had thoroughly convinced myself that a town RB who had responsibly accounted for the roleblocked claims would clearly know who the scum RB was and could win the game out, I did not check off all the possible role-speculation possibilities, and relied too heavily on unreliable reads to peg the roles.
With the benefit of scum QT I can now see the insane self-propagating bias that arose out of me asking FC for his reasoning, prompting his case against syl that only added more confirmation bias to my FC+syl RB pair read.
Still a confirmation bias problem, even after pointing it out myself earlier in the game. =/
Before-lynch thought process:
- FatChunk's arguments were not convincing enough on their own any way (I still voted him after reading the things he posted while I was asleep).
- Based on my flawed reasoning, town RB Syl (incorrect) would let FC die, or FC would claim town RB and spark counterclaim havoc.
- But because I was wrong, FC claimed VT. I was happy to lynch him for that unless either Chrom or Corazon came out and declared FC to be VT.
- But Chrom quickly found the holes in my logic, while Corazon actually bussed FC, bad move under time pressure without fully understanding the logic .
- As time ran out both Chrom and Corazon were fine with voting for FatChunk.
Obvious bus, we'll figure out who later and pray that there is no SK.
On December 31 2012 09:00 cakepie wrote:Doesn't matter, we kill fatchunk anyway. Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 08:56 Chromatically wrote:
Lies Corazon, I am town RB, you are scum with FC. Full claim with crumbs in a sec.
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On December 31 2012 13:28 Dandel Ion wrote:
Sure, the mafia could have deduced him too, even earlier. But they didn't and there's really no reason to point their attention towards it. Some things you don't need to immedeatly share with everyone.
This. Hapa kept reminding me that scum may not have figured everything out yet, with this being a newbie game.
He was right. I kept assuming the worst, which was that scum had already figured the roleblockers out.
They didn't, and we won based on that.
I am acutely aware that I could have lost us a won game right there.
If I had come out earlier with this BS logic, I think scumteam could have digested the information and tried to WIFOM play around it. Chrom might have ended up having a hard time convincing us (shz, sylencia and myself) given the suspicion that had been thrown his way for shepherding the shz voteswitch. So the timing was fortituous, in that scum did not have time to digest the information.
Clearly, the effort is a step in the right direction, I just need to direct my efforts more carefully and efficiently. This game will serve as a reminder to myself to do just that.
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On roleblocked claims:
Coming out with the analysis too early was a mistake, but am I right to say that in general it is a good policy for roleblocked claims to be aired out openly? If townies don't lie about it, then scum are also forced to honestly declare when they are roleblocked... right?
Is there any circumstance in which town would want to lie about roleblocks? I imagine it would be convoluted and would involve multiple powers, like in a theme game perhaps.
The obvious downside is that the information is open for both town and scum to see, and I'm sure in a non-newbie game scum would have figured out our blues easily from the information available as of D4.
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In the same spirit, does anyone have any comments on my play? For the record, I was deliberately trying for a more aggressive and pushy style for this game - a quick look at early day one suggested to me that there were very few aggressive players in the game and someone was going to have to rock the boat.
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On December 31 2012 14:12 Aquanim wrote:
In the same spirit, does anyone have any comments on my play? For the record, I was deliberately trying for a more aggressive and pushy style for this game - a quick look at early day one suggested to me that there were very few aggressive players in the game and someone was going to have to rock the boat.
I didn't pay detailed attention to the thread when I died.. but I thought in Night 1 though, I made some posts saying to leave you alone, because you appear to be playing the same town game as in the past.
Found it.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386911¤tpage=35#689
The moral is, its important to be confirmed town.
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On December 31 2012 14:12 Aquanim wrote:
In the same spirit, does anyone have any comments on my play? For the record, I was deliberately trying for a more aggressive and pushy style for this game - a quick look at early day one suggested to me that there were very few aggressive players in the game and someone was going to have to rock the boat.
There's not much to comment on your play-style because I found it really focused and effective. Good job!
I think you played a really good game overall. You're an effective communicator, an active player, and a good case-writer. All that's left for you to do is play some more games and refine your scum-hunting a bit. In particular, I suggest looking at some of the townies you were pushing this game (Spag, Omni, and Orange) and try to figure out where you went wrong.
Regarding Spag, I think you correctly identified a deviation in his play, but didn't consider if that deviation was scummy as much as you should have. In addition, I think you let yourself get caught up in some confirmation bias and didn't objectively consider the defenses of a fairly active townie.
Regarding Omni... VT claims are not scummy. They're stupid, but not damning by any means. Townies can do really stupid things, and as you grow as a player, you need to move away from objective reads (i.e. claiming VT under no pressure = scum) to a more subjective, case-by-case standard (i.e. is this particular player capable of doing this as town). It's tough stuff, but it's what separates the top town players from the solid ones.
Regarding Orange... really can't blame you for finding him scummy =P
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On December 31 2012 15:07 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 14:12 Aquanim wrote:
In the same spirit, does anyone have any comments on my play? For the record, I was deliberately trying for a more aggressive and pushy style for this game - a quick look at early day one suggested to me that there were very few aggressive players in the game and someone was going to have to rock the boat. I didn't pay detailed attention to the thread when I died.. but I thought in Night 1 though, I made some posts saying to leave you alone, because you appear to be playing the same town game as in the past. Found it.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386911¤tpage=35#689The moral is, its important to be confirmed town.
Well, I pushed the Spag lynch a lot harder than I pushed the Kick one in XXXI - even though Kick was scum in XXXI, noone really paid attention to my case, so I figured I should be more assertive about it.
This game, I push the wagon a little harder, everybody sheeps on, and Spaghetticus flips town. Go figure.
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On December 31 2012 15:19 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 14:12 Aquanim wrote:
In the same spirit, does anyone have any comments on my play? For the record, I was deliberately trying for a more aggressive and pushy style for this game - a quick look at early day one suggested to me that there were very few aggressive players in the game and someone was going to have to rock the boat. There's not much to comment on your play-style because I found it really focused and effective. Good job! I think you played a really good game overall. You're an effective communicator, an active player, and a good case-writer. All that's left for you to do is play some more games and refine your scum-hunting a bit. In particular, I suggest looking at some of the townies you were pushing this game (Spag, Omni, and Orange) and try to figure out where you went wrong. Regarding Spag, I think you correctly identified a deviation in his play, but didn't consider if that deviation was scummy as much as you should have. In addition, I think you let yourself get caught up in some confirmation bias and didn't objectively consider the defenses of a fairly active townie. Regarding Omni... VT claims are not scummy. They're stupid, but not damning by any means. Townies can do really stupid things, and as you grow as a player, you need to move away from objective reads (i.e. claiming VT under no pressure = scum) to a more subjective, case-by-case standard (i.e. is this particular player capable of doing this as town). It's tough stuff, but it's what separates the top town players from the solid ones. Regarding Orange... really can't blame you for finding him scummy =P
Yeah, I applied nearly no critical thought to the Omni wagon. Sheeping on that was my biggest regret later on.
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On December 31 2012 12:23 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 12:12 Clarity_nl wrote:On December 31 2012 09:57 shz wrote:
It is actually incredible how you got nearly lynched on D1 and became basically town for us after that.
@Chrome I was kinda hoping you to be scum. At one point I was so mad at you. Surprisingly common, Whether you are town or scum, if you come under the spotlight day 1 and live through it people will ignore you for a couple of days. Super disagree with this. Day 1 image can dog a player for a long time.
Eh, didn't phrase it well enough I guess. I mean if you don't get lynched because people went "ah, actually, he's town" then you have a smooth ride for a while. I agree that day 1 image stays for too long in general :p
If you barely didn't get lynched because someone looked scummier then you're still screwed ^^
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I think the fault in your thinking is that you assumed a stable meta from me. This was my second game, and I think I need to get all my experimenting out of the way before my meta 'settles' and any deviation is considered scummy. The 'fault' was completely understandable, and a non-issue in more advanced play me thinks.
I was tinkering with the extent to which one can be precise without losing town to WIFOM. I was about to start actually making cases, but you bum-rushed me so hard I was gone without a chance to adjust. Of course, if I was scum, your play would have been a crushing victory. IMO a solid play.
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On December 31 2012 15:32 Spaghetticus wrote:
I think the fault in your thinking is that you assumed a stable meta from me. This was my second game, and I think I need to get all my experimenting out of the way before my meta 'settles' and any deviation is considered scummy. The 'fault' was completely understandable, and a non-issue in more advanced play me thinks.
I was tinkering with the extent to which one can be precise without losing town to WIFOM. I was about to start actually making cases, but you bum-rushed me so hard I was gone without a chance to adjust. Of course, if I was scum, your play would have been a crushing victory. IMO a solid play.
To be honest, I think I'd have pushed you hard without the XXV meta - that was just what made me overconfident. My problem wasn't that you were different from before, it was that you were being very active (and getting town reads) without doing anything that scum couldn't easily mimic.
I left it as late as I possibly could to give you opportunity to make cases, but between sleep and work I simply didn't have any more time to wait.
These things will happen, I suppose =P
EDIT: So you know, if you play like that again I will push you again, because I stand by my statement you could play like that as scum very easily... but next time there'll be a warning shot first.
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11589 Posts
Yay town won.
I tangentially followed this game after I died. I would not have guessed FC scum. Cora, though, I might have been able to catch.
GG guys.
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On December 31 2012 16:48 yamato77 wrote:
Yay town won.
I tangentially followed this game after I died. I would not have guessed FC scum. Cora, though, I might have been able to catch.
GG guys.
Sorry about killing you right when you started, but we couldn't afford to have a townie with a fresh perspective on things.
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11589 Posts
No it was good play on your part. I was definitely a good target at that point. I had strong town reads on the right players and people were listening to me when I pushed kick really hard. I'm not mad at all.
Your scum play is really good, Cora. I ignored you in my initial reads of filters and only after I died did I realize you were probably scum.
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On December 31 2012 17:19 yamato77 wrote:
No it was good play on your part. I was definitely a good target at that point. I had strong town reads on the right players and people were listening to me when I pushed kick really hard. I'm not mad at all.
Your scum play is really good, Cora. I ignored you in my initial reads of filters and only after I died did I realize you were probably scum.
In all honesty, I got lucky with Spag defending me.
There were also a lot of people who played really lurkish, allowing me to accuse them and still take credibility.
I wanted to jump on the OE lynch, but I didn't have a real reason. Then he decided that he wanted to call me scum again, which was a good enough reason for me to vote because he had his read on me swing in so many directions. I know you had something in the obs QT about it.
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11589 Posts
yeah your vote post gave you away to me there. I tried to make an analysis video of the votes on OE and yours I was going to put as scum but for some reason the recordings never saved and I completely forgot about it.
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I think if I had to change one thing for next game, I would take notes on everyone, and check all of the rb claims. I feel like if I had been thinking about the blue roles before, I might have been able to kill off Chrom before I was found out. I had kind of put them all under the "VT" umbrella.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
I'm tired and hungover, but:
Do not make connection cases between mafia before a mafia flips.
Do not make connection cases between mafia before a mafia flips.
Chromatically practically talked himself out of lynching Kickstart, who was playing one of the scummiest games ever seen, because of connection cases. Yuk!
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it's a bit late but Aqua I think you played really well. If I wasn't a complete amateur I think D1 we could have had a nice conversation and bounced idea's off eachother and possibly saved Spag instead of me just jumping on the wagon. Too bad you wont be in the next game 
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EPT
