Walkabout Published on NA Map Bounds: 194 x 212 (Go big or go home The rush distance is actually the same as Cloud Kingdom so you guys can deal :-P)
Slightly annoyed that fog effects don't show up on my Export Map Images hardly ever no matter what I do (the map does look a lot better w/ fog + Show Spoiler +
), but I guess the contest is not really about looks so w/e.
There's a couple options if you want to wall off. You can each wall your own ramp or you can wall at the nat choke. You'll still be vulnerable from behind if you do the latter, but if they want to send slow lings around that will take a while and you should have time to prepare if you scouted decently.
Having watched a good amount of 2v2s (I unlike most people think the format has potential to be competitive) I've noticed that a lot of times a player will get attacked, lose a few structures/units before his teammate comes to the rescue, and then stabilize. I thought it would be a nice to have a secondary highground to fall back to if your main was compromised. So I did that.
After playing some games against the AI (teamed myself w/ a medium vs. 2 very hards, pretty entertaining actually), the layout and proportions of the main, nat, and middle felt really, really good. The games only got to use the sides a little, but I hope they work well too.
Fiery Divide 2v2 184x156 6 playerstars and 'cross spawns'. You spawn together in the fortress or one in fortress and one on the Desert Oasis like plateau.
3h 5min :D and sorry i had to re-use the tileset i made for the last map jam. i thought rather re-use than have no aestehtics at all. trees are aiur, belshir and shakuras just spam clicked everywhere. textures are copied from left to right.
On November 12 2012 16:15 Fatam wrote: So this thing should be done now. Are you going to make a poll w/ all the maps on it for people to vote? Or is some other method going to be used
absolutely. i expected some discussion here before doing the poll, but if everybody want to go straight up to the vote i am happy with that, too.
Hmm discussion. I like almost all of them to some degree. I think some people embraced the theme better than others (1 or 2 of the maps don't really have "desert oasis mains", they just have standard against-the-wall mains with an extra mineral line thrown in on the outside edge of the main for the 2nd team member. It sort of meets the requirement but come on lol), but regardless, all of them seem pretty solid.
Things I liked: - no fly zone walls! - different possible spawn locations - people that can do solid aesthetics really fast (not my strong suit) - RFDaemoniac being RFDaemoniac
Pitfalls I think a few people fell into (just my opinion, take with as much salt as necessary, feel free to pick apart my map, etc.): - on a few maps you can sit in one spot and defend 3, 4, or even 5 bases. Needs less linear expansion pattern / more attack paths - making a 1v1 map and then just putting an extra mineral line + starting location in the main (sort of the same thing as mentioned earlier)
I agree that having a 1v1 map with 2 bases in the main is sort of lame, but I also really like when not all bases are in pairs. I think Namfrus' limited connectivity between the bases is really cool and encourages air play in the same vein of the desert oasis mains ^^ I still would like to see this normalize at some point though. Since both players are so separate it does force a very aggressive game, but I think areas are too hard to defend thusly. Perhaps if there were mineral blockers between the two that forced small units until some point in the game when you'd finally mined a connection between them? Could be an interesting new allocation of time for a team game.
Monochromatic, can anti-air structures reach the edge of the air blocker? Part of what I like about the air blocker is that it limits how much space you have to defend completely, but if you can still skirt around the edges of the air blockers I think this sort of defeats the purpose of having them since the air rush distance is still incredibly short around the outside.
I really liked Fatam's setup of the natural where there are two entrances that have much longer rush distances, as well as the forward bases that allow for a very aggressive game. I had also never considered what high level 2v2 looks like (though I really should have been since I watch CSL), and the high ground in the main makes a ton of sense. Perhaps this could even creep its way into 1v1 maps in order to allow for smaller maps while allowing for defenders advantage?
NewSunshine provides a super solid implementation per usual. This is probably the most immediately playable of all the maps! Though it's a pretty conservative implementation of the Desert Oasis mains.
IceToad, I really like how only one player is closer by air, but I wish that it were the opposite player that was closer by ground, so that the pressure would be proportionate between the two. Here I feel that the player closer to the middle will just have to be more conservative always... Also with the watch towers there and the air blockers, there is only one path through the middle and you defend against both drops and ground pushes. It's still so close to where your opponent would also be defending, so it could be like a TvT tank line but in every matchup. Not sure how I feel about this.
Samro, can one team spawn in the desert oasis main and the other have both players be in the standard main? This would be quite imbalanced as I can't really see any positives of the desert oasis main to offset being more vulnerable.
Now that I look back at my map it is pretty linear, as evenly distributed as the bases are. My map also has a fair bit of CS going on, but I think this would be interesting to see in a 2v2 since it hasn't really happened before.
First I want to thank everyone who send me a suggestion for the topics and congratulate everyone who managed to make a map following the quite difficult concept '2v2 and Desert Oasis'! You did quite a good job and i am surprised by the overall very good quality of ideas and execution. The two topics were suggested by lefix and Icetoad and i was told lefix did not feel like mapping and also said teh topics provided a challenge where it was really quite difficult to come up with something :D
Honestly I am very happy with the outcome. there are so many ideas. seriously in each map there is something likeable one should look into and forge to something more refined and ready for play.
On November 13 2012 05:24 Fatam wrote: Hmm discussion. I like almost all of them to some degree. I think some people embraced the theme better than others (1 or 2 of the maps don't really have "desert oasis mains", they just have standard against-the-wall mains with an extra mineral line thrown in on the outside edge of the main for the 2nd team member. It sort of meets the requirement but come on lol), but regardless, all of them seem pretty solid.
Sure, some maps stayed closer to DO than others, but who cares - that is really there problem to partly fail but there are some ways to go away from DO and still make air closer than ground etc.
On November 13 2012 06:04 RFDaemoniac wrote: Samro, can one team spawn in the desert oasis main and the other have both players be in the standard main? This would be quite imbalanced as I can't really see any positives of the desert oasis main to offset being more vulnerable.
that would destroy the map, wouldn't it? lol. no seriously that is what i called 'cross spawn' - either both team spawn in the fortress or both teams spawn separated. that i how i set up the spawnpoints and in my testgame i always worked fine.
On November 13 2012 06:04 RFDaemoniac wrote: Now that I look back at my map it is pretty linear, as evenly distributed as the bases are. My map also has a fair bit of CS going on, but I think this would be interesting to see in a 2v2 since it hasn't really happened before.
I think a certain amount of CS is good, but after some great base setup your middle is just another fortress and it is hard to see where to go and what it does. imho, like i write later, you should connect one side more to the one spawn side etc. - - -
Some comments on every map:
NewSunshine Neosteel Fortress Mains and Nats are nicely positioned in a fortress yet with fifth you actually have to care about what is going on in a match. Due to the DO-like main orientation you will get terran and toss air harass very soon though and further bases are a bit hard to grap mainly because of an overly complex middle. with one base less and some more space it could be a very good 2v2. If that map had the full path around the mains it would be a higher pick for me. what stands out is the elegant shape of the mains and nats as well as the solid texturing. Thinking what towers can do in a 2v2 is a very cool starting point and if i was you i would remake the middle for a better effect of these and realize an easy to grasp expansion pattern.
Monochromatic Arboretum Cool no fly zone and with the bases to the outsides you get further away with additional expansions. i like how you actually how you theoretically have to do sth for your four bases because of the backdoors, but it is too easy to spot attacks. the map actually is quite turtly setup and i expect most fights to take place north and south of the no fly zone. the concept is really good, but that layout could be executed way better, e.g. by having mains and nat oriented a bit differently. yet it is quite a cool way to implement DO mains into a 2v2. Bigger or at least better paths would be nice and i would totally like to see that idea in a more elaborated layout. pm me for some ideas.
Namrufus Attica Good idea to split up mains and provide a second rocked nat/in-base third for the DO spawn. Unsure if that choke in between nats really needs to be that small. Considering the relative safety of 6 bases, I'd like to see more patzh into the late bases and i would switch the setup of the third base for the regular main spawn and the DO spawn so that the 12/6 bases are highrounds. that would allow toss/terran spawning at the regular main to expand along the edges leaving the DO spawn the double nat. very cleverly made, middle is a bit uninspired, but hell it is hard to use the space effectively with 4 mains and Desert Oasis style.
TheFish7 Sand Ocean 2 Certain similarities to Arboreum but with space instead of no-fly zone. The full circle around the main-fortress totally makes sense here and i think that grants interesting matches early on. The middle actually is interesting with some nice ramp setups to the sides but the set up of late bases is a bit uninspired and i do not like how you controll both bases along north/south edge from the same position basically. Gold bases definately are a nice sight nowadays but are definately winners' bases. Color scheme is an eye-friendly version of CK - talking about CK, some twisting highround could be a nice addition in the middle. i have an idea but it only works if you would change your main setup from fortress to something else, like two separated mains, one nat in corner, one facing forward and the direction of the close third being rocked. pm me if you are interested and i can provide an image.
RFDaemoniac Tortuganic Crater This is as much DO-style mains as it can get. Very likeable middle with beautifull cliffs. What i am not too fond of is the highround base + gold right next to it. there are some things i can image to happen there in an interesting way, but the bad thing (almost unattackable) sticks out way too much imho. I'd love to know your reasoning. also i think there is one base too much, especially with a double gas hy base. instead of the 12/6 i would connect the nat and the middle area in some cool way, making the transition towards gold easier but then again opening up path on the other side, too, not only in the sense of wider but also easier to understand and maneuver.
Fatam Walkabout I think the map is a bit hard to play early on and this is the concept behin it i guess. you have to coorporate early on to have a chance and possibly wall. it really is part of the concept. imho it provides very aggressive play and i am not super fond of it. since both middle bases infront of the mains are same distance from the ramp and there is some common main in between, i would close some lowground with rocks + main backdoors of completely in an asymmetric way for each team and think about making the front bases half gold bases :D since this would bring some need to penetrate the middle early+mid via air like DO to stay close to topic. maybe an overly crazy idea for some crazy-cool concept map!?
ScorpSCII Fiery Fields This is some very moderate DO main Imho the amount of control is just right for the bases you get early but the map could open up and transfer into the other spawn areas a bit more. right now every game that goes beyond the fifth should be instant win for the controlling players over the turtly opponents. Maybe some cool backdoor mechanic could be implemented to change that. what i would do is deleted one base per side, there is a serious oversaturation - even with half bases. I would suggest to move the base next to the rocked ramp as close to the main as possible and further away, kill the half base and connect its situation with the moved away base. this would allow you to expand further without penetrating the middle and give you more spave to work on the way the centre and the sides are connected - as well as for a mineral backdoor to expand in both directions (:
Icetoad Abarrach Too many bases controlled via too few path. Since the no fly zone stretches up to the north edge (?) afaik there is only one spot were things happen. not too happy about that. the double tower forces you back to 5 or possibly 6 bases max - which could be enough but again because of the one point to control it all you just have to sit there after a successfull attack, get all new units run there directly and go for the kill soo after mass-expanding. the layout is cool enough though for fun action early and in mid game with the tower on the ledge and only a half base as a close third.
On November 13 2012 06:18 Samro225am wrote: RFDaemoniac Tortuganic Crater This is as much DO-style mains as it can get. Very likeable middle with beautifull cliffs. What i am not too fond of is the highround base + gold right next to it. there are some things i can image to happen there in an interesting way, but the bad thing (almost unattackable) sticks out way too much imho. I'd love to know your reasoning. also i think there is one base too much, especially with a double gas hy base. instead of the 12/6 i would connect the nat and the middle area in some cool way, making the transition towards gold easier but then again opening up path on the other side, too, not only in the sense of wider but also easier to understand and maneuver.
I did have some reservations about the corners, and I like your idea for a new way to get to the middle. This would help encourage one expansion direction a little more over the other. I would probably combine the three bases in the bottom right (and upper left) including the gold to 2 bases, leaving the gold a little more exposed. I like the idea of corner golds so that you have to give up map control in order to control them, and then didn't like how open the high ground was so I added in another base If I had given myself a chance to sleep between drafts it probably would have helped a lot.
On November 11 2012 20:12 ScorpSCII wrote: Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
They do indeed mine from each others' minerals :/ I could put some rocks in to fix that or mess around with the layout a bit more. I don't want any minerals or main buildings to be hit by tanks on one of the sides (but tech is another thing ).
On November 11 2012 20:12 ScorpSCII wrote: Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
They do indeed mine from each others' minerals :/ I could put some rocks in to fix that or mess around with the layout a bit more. I don't want any minerals or main buildings to be hit by tanks on one of the sides (but tech is another thing ).
On November 13 2012 06:18 Samro225am wrote: RFDaemoniac Tortuganic Crater This is as much DO-style mains as it can get. Very likeable middle with beautifull cliffs. What i am not too fond of is the highround base + gold right next to it. there are some things i can image to happen there in an interesting way, but the bad thing (almost unattackable) sticks out way too much imho. I'd love to know your reasoning. also i think there is one base too much, especially with a double gas hy base. instead of the 12/6 i would connect the nat and the middle area in some cool way, making the transition towards gold easier but then again opening up path on the other side, too, not only in the sense of wider but also easier to understand and maneuver.
I did have some reservations about the corners, and I like your idea for a new way to get to the middle. This would help encourage one expansion direction a little more over the other. I would probably combine the three bases in the bottom right (and upper left) including the gold to 2 bases, leaving the gold a little more exposed. I like the idea of corner golds so that you have to give up map control in order to control them, and then didn't like how open the high ground was so I added in another base If I had given myself a chance to sleep between drafts it probably would have helped a lot.
On November 11 2012 20:12 ScorpSCII wrote: Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
They do indeed mine from each others' minerals :/ I could put some rocks in to fix that or mess around with the layout a bit more. I don't want any minerals or main buildings to be hit by tanks on one of the sides (but tech is another thing ).
The Map Jam & Challenge #1 created a significant number of interesting maps. Within the timeframe of 24h a map had to be created along two topics randomly selected among many suggestions: '2v2' and 'Desert-Oasis-style mains'.
It is now up to you to decide what map is the best overall:
On November 13 2012 08:14 Icetoad wrote: I declare that I support my own map, Abarrach xD.
haha, you are shameless Icetoad. there are things one can do, but should rather not do. if you want this contest to be a winner, like you and your map, you could give some comments on other maps, too. you know, this is a community thing
While a little late, I will still add my opinions on the maps.
Neosteel Fortress - NewSunshine
This map is a prime example of where someone makes a 1v1 map, adds another main and natural, and calls it done. Personally, I don't see any Desert Oasis elements in this map. That said, the map looks solid. Probably the strongest map in terms of balance and, but the weakest in terms of sticking to the theme.
Attica - Namrufus
Another fairly solid map. A concern of mine is if both players on one team rush one player on the other team. Would he be able to hold, and would his ally be able to reinforce in time? Other then that, bases seem to be layed out well, with a fairly easy third for both players. I'd recommend increasing the size of the passageway connecting the naturals, maybe add destructible rocks too, to make it so that only small units can go through for the beginning of the game. Great use of the theme too.
Sand Ocean 2 - TheFish7
The one glaring flaw in this map is that it only has 14 bases, with 3 of them hard to defend. Would make for some interesting games, so not really sure if it is that bad of a thing. Great sticking to the theme, and I quite like the overall layout.
Tortuganic Crater - RFDaemoniac
When I first saw this map, I absolutely loved it. It stuck with the theme, looked good, and had a interesting layout. However, after thinking about it, there is one massive flaw in the map design: If you are Terran or Protoss, and your ally is Zerg. It would be impossible to retake your base if it is destroyed or you accidentally float it. If this is not the case, then this is probably my favorite map that was submitted.
Walkabout - Fatam
My first thought was about how gigantic this map was. I love the high ground surrounding the bases on the bottom and on the top, and the center looks nice. I feel it is too big, and too easy to defend, but it is still a very solid map.
Fiery Grounds - ScorpSCII
I adore that main/nat/third/fourth layout that you have. I'd shrink it and make it a 1v1 map, and remove the half base. However, this map suffers from the same thing NewSunshine's map did. I don't see any Desert Oasis theme at all in the map. Shame, although one of my favorites.
Fiery Divide - Samro225am
Probably my favorite map if the other one has that creep issue. Great use of the theme, absolutely love it. Layout is solid, and has rocks to block pathways, so it is fairly even. Just an overall solid map.
Abarrach - Icetoad
I like this layout, great use of Nofly. The map seems solid, and probably the best expansion pattern out of any map. That said, I don't really see much Desert Oasis mains, other then the close by air part. Still kind've feels like it is at the edge of the map. However, it is still their, and so I think this is one of the better submitted maps.
Since you all know I love sharing my opinion on map contests...
NeoSteel Fortress Mains might be a little small for two players but with the bigger natural it might be alright. I like that holding the natural isn't too hard so hopefully this allows players to get off of 1 base much earlier. I fear some of the chokes around the map might be a little too small. Especially around the 3 and 9 oclock areas. The map overall seems to flow very nicely though.
Arboretum: Mains are nice, can't say I care too much about the naturals though because it seems they will be extremely hard to hold since the mineral/gas are so exposed. It might force 1 base play too much. I'd like if the chokes were also opened up a lot more, so many small, tight areas! The corner bases seem weird, why only 6 minerals and 1 gas? I think if you were able to open up the chokes more and make a couple bases more easily obtainable it would work out much better.
Attica: I like how this map is setup but the d-rock placement seems....weird. Why even use them? I'm also not a giant fan of the two seperate mains because it just makes it that much easier to rush one player while blocking the other player from coming down his ramp. Overall the base placement isn't too bad but as I said, I fear you'll be stuck on 1 base for too long because expanding is actually very dangerous here with how open it is and how your mains aren't connected together. I do like the amount of chokes you have though, lot of open spaces, yet lots of chokes. I absolutely love the middle section just because it's the middle of the map so it's open, but there are the cliffs added to give some more protection to the area.
Sand Ocean: Awesome mains, plenty of space which is needed. Unsure about the naturals as they are extremely open. I think you should add a couple chokes around where the 3rd bases are because even that seems veyr open. Not sure I care about the golds in the middle either, so close to your opponent and complete winner bases really. I think with a couple more cliffs / chokes around the 3rd bases and maybe a little easier to hold naturals this map would be great.
Tortuganic Crater: Interesting main setup but what about those naturals!? One person gets a natural and to grab the second player a natural it's so far away. I'd also like some of the ramps around the middle be opened up even more. Remember, it is a 2v2 player map, that could be 400 supply of units walking around.
Walkabout: Interesting mains lol. I'd honestly get rid of the d-rock entrance and you'd be set. Right now, especially with 2 players it'd be way too easy to bring both players over to one base, knock down the rocks fairly quickly and just demolish you. I fear the naturals are basically non-existant because of where you'd have to expand. You either expand away from your opponent but it's also farther away from you (and the d-rock backdoor!) or you expand infront of your base with is super open and extremely close to your opponent. I do like the whole outer ring of cliffs that you can harass / move around from, unfortunately I'm not sure how often they will get used because it seems very unlikely the game would ever get to the point where those side bases would get taken.
Fiery Grounds: I actually like the main & natural of this map. Both players should be able to grab their naturals fairly easily. I don't care at all for the middle though with all the double wide ramps. Seems waaay too choked off and too many height elevations. Watchtowers are nice because they can see every attack path, which I think is important in 2v2 so it's harder to get cheesed out. Can't say I care for the 1/2 bases though, seem kind of pointless.
Fiery Divide: I'd like this map a lot more if you were only able to spawn in the fortress area. I know you added the middle section for the Desert Oasis theme but I can't stand non-fortress 2v2 maps because it's way too easy for 2 players to all-in one guy. If they spawn in the fortress one has a super easy natural while the other can still get it easily but it's a little tougher, which is fine. I like the amount of open space in the middle of the map with the lone watchtower to watch over it. Again, I wish there wasn't the DO main and you just added more areas to expand / harass / move through out the map, currently I feel that really ruins the flow of the map.
Abarrach: Big enough mains which is nice and 1 safe natural. I'd like another safe natural though as well, especially since one person is going to expand outwards and it might be a little too tough to hold. What's up with the random 1/2 bases so many of you guys are putting on your 2v2 maps? So one person is suppose to grab the 1/2 base while the other gets the full base right below it? I think the non fly zone you added just puts too much limited movement space in this map. Also might be a little dull because of the one giant path of lowground that armies will have to attack through.
Conclusion: Honestly out of all these maps I feel I'd have most fun playing NeoSteel Fortress. 2nd favorite map would probably be Fiery Divide, but I have to give the edge to NeoSteel just because of the chance to be split base in Fiery. For Neosteel, you've got a decent sized main with safe enough naturals for each player that allow buildings down there if the main isn't big enough. You also get to move all around the map which gives the map nice flow because attacks could be coming from anywhere, rather then all funneled through one path. Again I wish some of the non-main or natural ramps where a little bigger to open up the map a bit and I hope the main closest to the middle can't be owned by Siege tanks that easily.
Good job NewSunshine, you've got my vote!
ps. Good work to everybody that submitted maps, it's awesome to see a nice batch of maps that you only get a limited time to work on coming through. I hope this challenge stuff keeps going and quite possibly if I get some more time I'll have to try to compete one of these times.
The creep of a zerg player does not block their ally's main building, nor does it prevent you from walling it off. You do, however, have to be careful of creep tumors. I'll be sure to try that LOSB trick, but right now my editor keeps crashing on me
@ Sidian: It's true for both players to expand comfortably to their natural one has to walk a very far distance. However I think this encourages one player to be aggressive or to tech while the other expands, which I think is more interesting than allowing for perfectly parallel builds. It makes it harder to play with a random ally because you have to agree with the plan, but I think it allows for a little more depth. I hadn't thought about all 400 supply in one place... though I suppose that's bound to happen, isn't it? Damn!
EPT
The rush distance is actually the same as Cloud Kingdom so you guys can deal :-P)![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MMh8V.jpg)
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but there are some ways to go away from DO and still make air closer than ground etc.
Imho the amount of control is just right for the bases you get early but the map could open up and transfer into the other spawn areas a bit more. right now every game that goes beyond the fifth should be instant win for the controlling players over the turtly opponents. Maybe some cool backdoor mechanic could be implemented to change that. what i would do is deleted one base per side, there is a serious oversaturation - even with half bases. I would suggest to move the base next to the rocked ramp as close to the main as possible and further away, kill the half base and connect its situation with the moved away base. this would allow you to expand further without penetrating the middle and give you more spave to work on the way the centre and the sides are connected - as well as for a mineral backdoor to expand in both directions (:
