Rules: Combine the two topics in one map. Post your map overview and relevant details in this thread and have your map uploaded to EU/NA within the next 24 hours. Poll decides on winner with participants having one additional vote.
Note: Among all entries sent to me via PM two topics were selected randomly using www.randomizer.org. I cannot give you more information on the topics, they are presented in the way they were send to me. Hence you can interprete both the way you wish: 2v2 is not necessarily only 4 spawnpoints, can be a 2-, 3-, or 4-team setup (LunarColony, Tryador Keep and Magma Core respectively). Consequently not all mains need to be Desert Oasis style, but at least two.
What is the Map Jam & Challenge? The Map Jam & Challenge is a format by and for the community. The Map Jam & Challenge is a regular map making competition. The Map Jam & Challenge wants you to be creative and quick. The Map Jam & Challenge provokes thinking outside the box.
This is a format developed collaboratively with ScorpSCII and was motivated by MotM, CSL Map Jam and the Map Making Challenge.
Why do this? It is all about challenging your fellow map makers with some strange idea and together to a 24h map making jam that will produce innovative, funny and crazy maps. From this format ideas may emerge that can be implemented to competitive maps - or maybe not. There is nothing to win like beta keys, sorry for that. I have no give aways, no tshirts. Also I do not own this format. This is an idea that i hope can be run by the community itself, without judges, organization, etc.
I know many will appreciate this. Here it is all about making maps. These may or may not be played. This is not the biggest point. We are looking for new ideas in maps and for new ways to make maps.
How does it work?
every other month, 6 times a year starting mid-November.
24h to allow all timezones a few hours. Over the weekend might be a good idea.
all participants send one a topic to the admin via PM(!), e.g. 'rocks' and 'low main'.
By a randomized process two topics (!) are selected among all entries and made public to start the Map Jam & Challenge. This aspects helps to have no 'cheating' like preparing a map to give yourself more time.
Within the 24h participants post the overview in this thread and upload their map to EU/NA (ask your fellow map makers at EU/NA)
Public Vote decides on the winning map. Map makers who think they have the edge in evaluating how good a map is can post their choice in the thread to have a double-vote.
win=fun and fame
The Map Jam & Challenge #1 The Map Jam & Challenge start Saturday, November 10th, 10:00EDT 15:00EST and runs 24hours. Topics need to be send to me via PM until one hour before the challenge starts. This gives the admin one hour to randomly select the double-topic. Via PM we will keep all ideas secret and fresh for the next round maybe and the double-topic is quite a surprise for everyone.
I'll try to admin for #1, Scorp SCII will do it for #2 and I hope some guys will pick it up in the future.
glhf
edit: you send ONE topic. Out of all suggestions two are picked and combined. i do not re-write your ideas, they have to be clear and/or will be interpreted by the community.
Not sure if you should randomly select from all possible topics though... Seems like you could end up with something pretty bad if they aren't screened first.
Cheat? by spending more time on a map? If that's the worst that can happen then whatever... definitely not a reason to not do this. I'm 100% down for this. will spend some time thinking about a theme ^^
If a really bad topic is selected I'm sure the admin can just "disappear" it and choose another one randomly, at their discretion. And no one will be the wiser.
Seems cool. 24h will help a lot for people that are on a different schedule than the host country (e.g. the map jam allowed 5 hours, but if that is when you sleep then it's pretty inconvenient).
Well there's no way to prevent semi-cheating. i.e. someone has a mostly finished map that they've had lying around, and then they just change a couple things to fit the theme. There's no way you can know if they did that or not.
But I think that's not a huge deal, if people want to do that it's ok. (although in my conscience I feel a little better if I make it from scratch :-P)
I'd love to participate in something like this. I'll be thinking of some fun themes too! Don't really think "cheating" will be much of a problem, so long as maps are not judged based on aesthetics.
My first idea for a theme: "Any main entrance except single-wide ramp"
You say you want us to PM them to you for secrecy, but I think having a bunch of these ideas out there would help future challenges by having a place to look for ideas
On November 05 2012 05:19 Laertes wrote: I have a few suggestions.
Topic: Gasless Thirds Choke point natural, spread out bases Defender's Advantage No defender's advantage
please decide on one clear topic and send only that one idea to me via PM if you plan to take part. also the topic has to be clear enough to be send out just like that
On November 05 2012 05:21 Rukis wrote: I am very confused about this Map jam, is it like making a map on the spot?
basically this is a speedmapping contest. to prevent most forms of cheating and provide extra fun there is two topics that are selected randomly among all topic entries via PM to the jam's admin.
since it basically is about developing outside the box map ideas and explore the options we have it is from and for map makers.
the short term 24h format realized the idea of a jam were you put out your ideas in an efficent way. The background for this idea gave the csl map jam with the topic 'rocks' - everybody was shocked by that topic at first, but then it was really fun.
I do not plan to make this an organization, this is just a bottm-up format i suggest that i hope people in the community pick up. ScorpSCII who co-developed the idea will admin #2
On November 05 2012 10:48 TheFish7 wrote: I'd love to participate in something like this. I'll be thinking of some fun themes too! Don't really think "cheating" will be much of a problem, so long as maps are not judged based on aesthetics.
My first idea for a theme: "Any main entrance except single-wide ramp"
please send via PM.
On November 05 2012 11:04 Monochromatic wrote: I'd gladly do this, but I'll probably forget and timezones might screw me over.
EDIT: Would copy-pasting aesthetics from other maps you have be considered cheating?
just try to win, if it does not look copy pasted/you are not caught, you are ok. remember it is decided by public vote so if you are caught, your fate is in the mob's fate, hehe - please not, this is not an aesthetics contest. if it looks decent emough, you are good with very little doodads i guess. this is a speed map making context basically as you only have 24h. we do not expect tpw/esv-motm-like-polished-maps.
On November 05 2012 13:02 RFDaemoniac wrote: You say you want us to PM them to you for secrecy, but I think having a bunch of these ideas out there would help future challenges by having a place to look for ideas
it seems difficult to me to discuss ideas here for obvious reasons. also it would be anti-climatic to have some nice discussion around a theme that never was chosen etc. I once tried with the Map making Challenge and everybody was just throwing around thousands ideas in a thread and it was hard to follow. hence the restriction to only send one topic that you really want to have via PM.
most people know what makes a good topic and so far i have received many nice ideas.
also please remember to send only one topic! so far i received 10 ideas and several extra topics if we keep that pace i am positive that we have around 20 participants next weekend.
The Map Jam & Challenge #1 The Map Jam & Challenge start Saturday, November 10th, 10:00EDT 15:00EST and runs 24hours. Topics need to be send to me via PM until one hour before the challenge starts.
On November 10 2012 15:19 Fatam wrote: So I guess a reminder for people. This starts tomorrow / later today
I have received plenty of challenges and hopfe for as many entries, once this thing gets started:
The Map Jam & Challenge start Saturday, November 10th, 10:00EDT 15:00EST and runs 24hours. Topics need to be send to me via PM until one hour before the challenge starts.
So it is a good four hours if you want to join in and send a topic that might be chosen.
Rules: Combine the two topics in one map. Post your map overview and relevant details in this thread and have your map uploaded to EU/NA within the next 24 hours. Poll decides on winner with participants having one additional vote.
Note: Among all entries sent to me via PM two topics were selected randomly using www.randomizer.org. I cannot give you more information on the topics, they are presented in the way they were send to me. Hence you can interprete both the way you wish: 2v2 is not necessarily only 4 spawnpoints, can be a 2-, 3-, or 4-team setup (LunarColony, Tryador Keep and Magma Core respectively). Consequently not all mains need to be Desert Oasis style, but at least two - and one if you dare to make it asymmetric!
Have fun guys! Looking forward to see what you come up with 2v2 maps are definitely not explored enough, so hopefully this can bring up some interesting results - and I am pretty sure I read that Blizzard wanted to update team pools in the near future as well?
On November 11 2012 06:38 Fatam wrote: So I guess "desert oasis style mains" just means mains that aren't on the edge of the map.
i think tis is up to your imagination, but strictly speaking it also means closer air than ground distance - a two sided natural behind the main that is in the open (as you wrote).
Idk if you should have to have a 2-sided nat, since it says "desert oasis mains" not "desert oasis mains AND naturals". The way a natural is setup does have an influence on how the main functions though, so I could see that argument.
I guess we'll just have to interpret the guidelines in our own way :-P
Fog Doesn't show on the picture for some weird reason. The Force Fields in the middle are a no fly zone, you must fly around them. (Overlord cannot see, Banshee cannot shoot, etc.) Approximately 90 game seconds for an overlord to scout the first person on the other side. Tanks cannot shoot across. Also was shocked that "Arboretum" wasn't taken as a name.
Picture showing the fog effects, Force Field wall clearly, and an overview of the mains is here: + Show Spoiler +
I have a 1v1 map coming out that uses no-fly zones in the exact same way. I think they are quite underused and can allow for a lot of different map shapes that haven't been explored yet (think if Scrap Station had no fly zones inbetween the mains to extend the air distance, fixed the nat ramp, and the gold base was a normal base.. could have been a much better map).
I think the mains are a little too easy to defend here, but it looks interesting. Siege tanks underneath the nats might ruin somebody's parade too.
It was surprisingly tough to come up with an map for this combination of topics.
here is my map:
(2v2) Attica -- 170x140 published on NA
only small units (workers, T1 units, maraders, sentries, etc but not stalkers, roaches, hellions, tanks, etc) can move through the the small passageways between the nats.
warpins into the "Desert Oasis" mains are not possible from the low ground, though it is possible to siege the mineral line and one geyser from certain spots (quite close to the other main's nat entrance) if you have vision.
Its kind of a remake of one of my older maps, but its built completely from scratch. I really wanted to give it a desert oasis style layout, it did end up w/ a lot of dead space in the end. 2X protoss can FFE pretty easily.
Tortuganic Crater Published on NA Map Bounds: 160x160
It's very resource dense but I figured this would be a welcome change from the sparse bases of the blizzard maps. It's a pretty noob map, but I had fun thinking about it
On November 11 2012 18:42 RFDaemoniac wrote: Tortuganic Crater Published on NA Map Bounds: 160x160
It's very resource dense but I figured this would be a welcome change from the sparse bases of the blizzard maps. It's a pretty noob map, but I had fun thinking about it
Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
Walkabout Published on NA Map Bounds: 194 x 212 (Go big or go home The rush distance is actually the same as Cloud Kingdom so you guys can deal :-P)
Slightly annoyed that fog effects don't show up on my Export Map Images hardly ever no matter what I do (the map does look a lot better w/ fog + Show Spoiler +
), but I guess the contest is not really about looks so w/e.
There's a couple options if you want to wall off. You can each wall your own ramp or you can wall at the nat choke. You'll still be vulnerable from behind if you do the latter, but if they want to send slow lings around that will take a while and you should have time to prepare if you scouted decently.
Having watched a good amount of 2v2s (I unlike most people think the format has potential to be competitive) I've noticed that a lot of times a player will get attacked, lose a few structures/units before his teammate comes to the rescue, and then stabilize. I thought it would be a nice to have a secondary highground to fall back to if your main was compromised. So I did that.
After playing some games against the AI (teamed myself w/ a medium vs. 2 very hards, pretty entertaining actually), the layout and proportions of the main, nat, and middle felt really, really good. The games only got to use the sides a little, but I hope they work well too.
Fiery Divide 2v2 184x156 6 playerstars and 'cross spawns'. You spawn together in the fortress or one in fortress and one on the Desert Oasis like plateau.
3h 5min :D and sorry i had to re-use the tileset i made for the last map jam. i thought rather re-use than have no aestehtics at all. trees are aiur, belshir and shakuras just spam clicked everywhere. textures are copied from left to right.
On November 12 2012 16:15 Fatam wrote: So this thing should be done now. Are you going to make a poll w/ all the maps on it for people to vote? Or is some other method going to be used
absolutely. i expected some discussion here before doing the poll, but if everybody want to go straight up to the vote i am happy with that, too.
Hmm discussion. I like almost all of them to some degree. I think some people embraced the theme better than others (1 or 2 of the maps don't really have "desert oasis mains", they just have standard against-the-wall mains with an extra mineral line thrown in on the outside edge of the main for the 2nd team member. It sort of meets the requirement but come on lol), but regardless, all of them seem pretty solid.
Things I liked: - no fly zone walls! - different possible spawn locations - people that can do solid aesthetics really fast (not my strong suit) - RFDaemoniac being RFDaemoniac
Pitfalls I think a few people fell into (just my opinion, take with as much salt as necessary, feel free to pick apart my map, etc.): - on a few maps you can sit in one spot and defend 3, 4, or even 5 bases. Needs less linear expansion pattern / more attack paths - making a 1v1 map and then just putting an extra mineral line + starting location in the main (sort of the same thing as mentioned earlier)
I agree that having a 1v1 map with 2 bases in the main is sort of lame, but I also really like when not all bases are in pairs. I think Namfrus' limited connectivity between the bases is really cool and encourages air play in the same vein of the desert oasis mains ^^ I still would like to see this normalize at some point though. Since both players are so separate it does force a very aggressive game, but I think areas are too hard to defend thusly. Perhaps if there were mineral blockers between the two that forced small units until some point in the game when you'd finally mined a connection between them? Could be an interesting new allocation of time for a team game.
Monochromatic, can anti-air structures reach the edge of the air blocker? Part of what I like about the air blocker is that it limits how much space you have to defend completely, but if you can still skirt around the edges of the air blockers I think this sort of defeats the purpose of having them since the air rush distance is still incredibly short around the outside.
I really liked Fatam's setup of the natural where there are two entrances that have much longer rush distances, as well as the forward bases that allow for a very aggressive game. I had also never considered what high level 2v2 looks like (though I really should have been since I watch CSL), and the high ground in the main makes a ton of sense. Perhaps this could even creep its way into 1v1 maps in order to allow for smaller maps while allowing for defenders advantage?
NewSunshine provides a super solid implementation per usual. This is probably the most immediately playable of all the maps! Though it's a pretty conservative implementation of the Desert Oasis mains.
IceToad, I really like how only one player is closer by air, but I wish that it were the opposite player that was closer by ground, so that the pressure would be proportionate between the two. Here I feel that the player closer to the middle will just have to be more conservative always... Also with the watch towers there and the air blockers, there is only one path through the middle and you defend against both drops and ground pushes. It's still so close to where your opponent would also be defending, so it could be like a TvT tank line but in every matchup. Not sure how I feel about this.
Samro, can one team spawn in the desert oasis main and the other have both players be in the standard main? This would be quite imbalanced as I can't really see any positives of the desert oasis main to offset being more vulnerable.
Now that I look back at my map it is pretty linear, as evenly distributed as the bases are. My map also has a fair bit of CS going on, but I think this would be interesting to see in a 2v2 since it hasn't really happened before.
First I want to thank everyone who send me a suggestion for the topics and congratulate everyone who managed to make a map following the quite difficult concept '2v2 and Desert Oasis'! You did quite a good job and i am surprised by the overall very good quality of ideas and execution. The two topics were suggested by lefix and Icetoad and i was told lefix did not feel like mapping and also said teh topics provided a challenge where it was really quite difficult to come up with something :D
Honestly I am very happy with the outcome. there are so many ideas. seriously in each map there is something likeable one should look into and forge to something more refined and ready for play.
On November 13 2012 05:24 Fatam wrote: Hmm discussion. I like almost all of them to some degree. I think some people embraced the theme better than others (1 or 2 of the maps don't really have "desert oasis mains", they just have standard against-the-wall mains with an extra mineral line thrown in on the outside edge of the main for the 2nd team member. It sort of meets the requirement but come on lol), but regardless, all of them seem pretty solid.
Sure, some maps stayed closer to DO than others, but who cares - that is really there problem to partly fail but there are some ways to go away from DO and still make air closer than ground etc.
On November 13 2012 06:04 RFDaemoniac wrote: Samro, can one team spawn in the desert oasis main and the other have both players be in the standard main? This would be quite imbalanced as I can't really see any positives of the desert oasis main to offset being more vulnerable.
that would destroy the map, wouldn't it? lol. no seriously that is what i called 'cross spawn' - either both team spawn in the fortress or both teams spawn separated. that i how i set up the spawnpoints and in my testgame i always worked fine.
On November 13 2012 06:04 RFDaemoniac wrote: Now that I look back at my map it is pretty linear, as evenly distributed as the bases are. My map also has a fair bit of CS going on, but I think this would be interesting to see in a 2v2 since it hasn't really happened before.
I think a certain amount of CS is good, but after some great base setup your middle is just another fortress and it is hard to see where to go and what it does. imho, like i write later, you should connect one side more to the one spawn side etc. - - -
Some comments on every map:
NewSunshine Neosteel Fortress Mains and Nats are nicely positioned in a fortress yet with fifth you actually have to care about what is going on in a match. Due to the DO-like main orientation you will get terran and toss air harass very soon though and further bases are a bit hard to grap mainly because of an overly complex middle. with one base less and some more space it could be a very good 2v2. If that map had the full path around the mains it would be a higher pick for me. what stands out is the elegant shape of the mains and nats as well as the solid texturing. Thinking what towers can do in a 2v2 is a very cool starting point and if i was you i would remake the middle for a better effect of these and realize an easy to grasp expansion pattern.
Monochromatic Arboretum Cool no fly zone and with the bases to the outsides you get further away with additional expansions. i like how you actually how you theoretically have to do sth for your four bases because of the backdoors, but it is too easy to spot attacks. the map actually is quite turtly setup and i expect most fights to take place north and south of the no fly zone. the concept is really good, but that layout could be executed way better, e.g. by having mains and nat oriented a bit differently. yet it is quite a cool way to implement DO mains into a 2v2. Bigger or at least better paths would be nice and i would totally like to see that idea in a more elaborated layout. pm me for some ideas.
Namrufus Attica Good idea to split up mains and provide a second rocked nat/in-base third for the DO spawn. Unsure if that choke in between nats really needs to be that small. Considering the relative safety of 6 bases, I'd like to see more patzh into the late bases and i would switch the setup of the third base for the regular main spawn and the DO spawn so that the 12/6 bases are highrounds. that would allow toss/terran spawning at the regular main to expand along the edges leaving the DO spawn the double nat. very cleverly made, middle is a bit uninspired, but hell it is hard to use the space effectively with 4 mains and Desert Oasis style.
TheFish7 Sand Ocean 2 Certain similarities to Arboreum but with space instead of no-fly zone. The full circle around the main-fortress totally makes sense here and i think that grants interesting matches early on. The middle actually is interesting with some nice ramp setups to the sides but the set up of late bases is a bit uninspired and i do not like how you controll both bases along north/south edge from the same position basically. Gold bases definately are a nice sight nowadays but are definately winners' bases. Color scheme is an eye-friendly version of CK - talking about CK, some twisting highround could be a nice addition in the middle. i have an idea but it only works if you would change your main setup from fortress to something else, like two separated mains, one nat in corner, one facing forward and the direction of the close third being rocked. pm me if you are interested and i can provide an image.
RFDaemoniac Tortuganic Crater This is as much DO-style mains as it can get. Very likeable middle with beautifull cliffs. What i am not too fond of is the highround base + gold right next to it. there are some things i can image to happen there in an interesting way, but the bad thing (almost unattackable) sticks out way too much imho. I'd love to know your reasoning. also i think there is one base too much, especially with a double gas hy base. instead of the 12/6 i would connect the nat and the middle area in some cool way, making the transition towards gold easier but then again opening up path on the other side, too, not only in the sense of wider but also easier to understand and maneuver.
Fatam Walkabout I think the map is a bit hard to play early on and this is the concept behin it i guess. you have to coorporate early on to have a chance and possibly wall. it really is part of the concept. imho it provides very aggressive play and i am not super fond of it. since both middle bases infront of the mains are same distance from the ramp and there is some common main in between, i would close some lowground with rocks + main backdoors of completely in an asymmetric way for each team and think about making the front bases half gold bases :D since this would bring some need to penetrate the middle early+mid via air like DO to stay close to topic. maybe an overly crazy idea for some crazy-cool concept map!?
ScorpSCII Fiery Fields This is some very moderate DO main Imho the amount of control is just right for the bases you get early but the map could open up and transfer into the other spawn areas a bit more. right now every game that goes beyond the fifth should be instant win for the controlling players over the turtly opponents. Maybe some cool backdoor mechanic could be implemented to change that. what i would do is deleted one base per side, there is a serious oversaturation - even with half bases. I would suggest to move the base next to the rocked ramp as close to the main as possible and further away, kill the half base and connect its situation with the moved away base. this would allow you to expand further without penetrating the middle and give you more spave to work on the way the centre and the sides are connected - as well as for a mineral backdoor to expand in both directions (:
Icetoad Abarrach Too many bases controlled via too few path. Since the no fly zone stretches up to the north edge (?) afaik there is only one spot were things happen. not too happy about that. the double tower forces you back to 5 or possibly 6 bases max - which could be enough but again because of the one point to control it all you just have to sit there after a successfull attack, get all new units run there directly and go for the kill soo after mass-expanding. the layout is cool enough though for fun action early and in mid game with the tower on the ledge and only a half base as a close third.
On November 13 2012 06:18 Samro225am wrote: RFDaemoniac Tortuganic Crater This is as much DO-style mains as it can get. Very likeable middle with beautifull cliffs. What i am not too fond of is the highround base + gold right next to it. there are some things i can image to happen there in an interesting way, but the bad thing (almost unattackable) sticks out way too much imho. I'd love to know your reasoning. also i think there is one base too much, especially with a double gas hy base. instead of the 12/6 i would connect the nat and the middle area in some cool way, making the transition towards gold easier but then again opening up path on the other side, too, not only in the sense of wider but also easier to understand and maneuver.
I did have some reservations about the corners, and I like your idea for a new way to get to the middle. This would help encourage one expansion direction a little more over the other. I would probably combine the three bases in the bottom right (and upper left) including the gold to 2 bases, leaving the gold a little more exposed. I like the idea of corner golds so that you have to give up map control in order to control them, and then didn't like how open the high ground was so I added in another base If I had given myself a chance to sleep between drafts it probably would have helped a lot.
On November 11 2012 20:12 ScorpSCII wrote: Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
They do indeed mine from each others' minerals :/ I could put some rocks in to fix that or mess around with the layout a bit more. I don't want any minerals or main buildings to be hit by tanks on one of the sides (but tech is another thing ).
On November 11 2012 20:12 ScorpSCII wrote: Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
They do indeed mine from each others' minerals :/ I could put some rocks in to fix that or mess around with the layout a bit more. I don't want any minerals or main buildings to be hit by tanks on one of the sides (but tech is another thing ).
On November 13 2012 06:18 Samro225am wrote: RFDaemoniac Tortuganic Crater This is as much DO-style mains as it can get. Very likeable middle with beautifull cliffs. What i am not too fond of is the highround base + gold right next to it. there are some things i can image to happen there in an interesting way, but the bad thing (almost unattackable) sticks out way too much imho. I'd love to know your reasoning. also i think there is one base too much, especially with a double gas hy base. instead of the 12/6 i would connect the nat and the middle area in some cool way, making the transition towards gold easier but then again opening up path on the other side, too, not only in the sense of wider but also easier to understand and maneuver.
I did have some reservations about the corners, and I like your idea for a new way to get to the middle. This would help encourage one expansion direction a little more over the other. I would probably combine the three bases in the bottom right (and upper left) including the gold to 2 bases, leaving the gold a little more exposed. I like the idea of corner golds so that you have to give up map control in order to control them, and then didn't like how open the high ground was so I added in another base If I had given myself a chance to sleep between drafts it probably would have helped a lot.
On November 11 2012 20:12 ScorpSCII wrote: Cool map. Do workers mine from each others' minerals?
They do indeed mine from each others' minerals :/ I could put some rocks in to fix that or mess around with the layout a bit more. I don't want any minerals or main buildings to be hit by tanks on one of the sides (but tech is another thing ).
The Map Jam & Challenge #1 created a significant number of interesting maps. Within the timeframe of 24h a map had to be created along two topics randomly selected among many suggestions: '2v2' and 'Desert-Oasis-style mains'.
It is now up to you to decide what map is the best overall:
On November 13 2012 08:14 Icetoad wrote: I declare that I support my own map, Abarrach xD.
haha, you are shameless Icetoad. there are things one can do, but should rather not do. if you want this contest to be a winner, like you and your map, you could give some comments on other maps, too. you know, this is a community thing
While a little late, I will still add my opinions on the maps.
Neosteel Fortress - NewSunshine
This map is a prime example of where someone makes a 1v1 map, adds another main and natural, and calls it done. Personally, I don't see any Desert Oasis elements in this map. That said, the map looks solid. Probably the strongest map in terms of balance and, but the weakest in terms of sticking to the theme.
Attica - Namrufus
Another fairly solid map. A concern of mine is if both players on one team rush one player on the other team. Would he be able to hold, and would his ally be able to reinforce in time? Other then that, bases seem to be layed out well, with a fairly easy third for both players. I'd recommend increasing the size of the passageway connecting the naturals, maybe add destructible rocks too, to make it so that only small units can go through for the beginning of the game. Great use of the theme too.
Sand Ocean 2 - TheFish7
The one glaring flaw in this map is that it only has 14 bases, with 3 of them hard to defend. Would make for some interesting games, so not really sure if it is that bad of a thing. Great sticking to the theme, and I quite like the overall layout.
Tortuganic Crater - RFDaemoniac
When I first saw this map, I absolutely loved it. It stuck with the theme, looked good, and had a interesting layout. However, after thinking about it, there is one massive flaw in the map design: If you are Terran or Protoss, and your ally is Zerg. It would be impossible to retake your base if it is destroyed or you accidentally float it. If this is not the case, then this is probably my favorite map that was submitted.
Walkabout - Fatam
My first thought was about how gigantic this map was. I love the high ground surrounding the bases on the bottom and on the top, and the center looks nice. I feel it is too big, and too easy to defend, but it is still a very solid map.
Fiery Grounds - ScorpSCII
I adore that main/nat/third/fourth layout that you have. I'd shrink it and make it a 1v1 map, and remove the half base. However, this map suffers from the same thing NewSunshine's map did. I don't see any Desert Oasis theme at all in the map. Shame, although one of my favorites.
Fiery Divide - Samro225am
Probably my favorite map if the other one has that creep issue. Great use of the theme, absolutely love it. Layout is solid, and has rocks to block pathways, so it is fairly even. Just an overall solid map.
Abarrach - Icetoad
I like this layout, great use of Nofly. The map seems solid, and probably the best expansion pattern out of any map. That said, I don't really see much Desert Oasis mains, other then the close by air part. Still kind've feels like it is at the edge of the map. However, it is still their, and so I think this is one of the better submitted maps.
Since you all know I love sharing my opinion on map contests...
NeoSteel Fortress Mains might be a little small for two players but with the bigger natural it might be alright. I like that holding the natural isn't too hard so hopefully this allows players to get off of 1 base much earlier. I fear some of the chokes around the map might be a little too small. Especially around the 3 and 9 oclock areas. The map overall seems to flow very nicely though.
Arboretum: Mains are nice, can't say I care too much about the naturals though because it seems they will be extremely hard to hold since the mineral/gas are so exposed. It might force 1 base play too much. I'd like if the chokes were also opened up a lot more, so many small, tight areas! The corner bases seem weird, why only 6 minerals and 1 gas? I think if you were able to open up the chokes more and make a couple bases more easily obtainable it would work out much better.
Attica: I like how this map is setup but the d-rock placement seems....weird. Why even use them? I'm also not a giant fan of the two seperate mains because it just makes it that much easier to rush one player while blocking the other player from coming down his ramp. Overall the base placement isn't too bad but as I said, I fear you'll be stuck on 1 base for too long because expanding is actually very dangerous here with how open it is and how your mains aren't connected together. I do like the amount of chokes you have though, lot of open spaces, yet lots of chokes. I absolutely love the middle section just because it's the middle of the map so it's open, but there are the cliffs added to give some more protection to the area.
Sand Ocean: Awesome mains, plenty of space which is needed. Unsure about the naturals as they are extremely open. I think you should add a couple chokes around where the 3rd bases are because even that seems veyr open. Not sure I care about the golds in the middle either, so close to your opponent and complete winner bases really. I think with a couple more cliffs / chokes around the 3rd bases and maybe a little easier to hold naturals this map would be great.
Tortuganic Crater: Interesting main setup but what about those naturals!? One person gets a natural and to grab the second player a natural it's so far away. I'd also like some of the ramps around the middle be opened up even more. Remember, it is a 2v2 player map, that could be 400 supply of units walking around.
Walkabout: Interesting mains lol. I'd honestly get rid of the d-rock entrance and you'd be set. Right now, especially with 2 players it'd be way too easy to bring both players over to one base, knock down the rocks fairly quickly and just demolish you. I fear the naturals are basically non-existant because of where you'd have to expand. You either expand away from your opponent but it's also farther away from you (and the d-rock backdoor!) or you expand infront of your base with is super open and extremely close to your opponent. I do like the whole outer ring of cliffs that you can harass / move around from, unfortunately I'm not sure how often they will get used because it seems very unlikely the game would ever get to the point where those side bases would get taken.
Fiery Grounds: I actually like the main & natural of this map. Both players should be able to grab their naturals fairly easily. I don't care at all for the middle though with all the double wide ramps. Seems waaay too choked off and too many height elevations. Watchtowers are nice because they can see every attack path, which I think is important in 2v2 so it's harder to get cheesed out. Can't say I care for the 1/2 bases though, seem kind of pointless.
Fiery Divide: I'd like this map a lot more if you were only able to spawn in the fortress area. I know you added the middle section for the Desert Oasis theme but I can't stand non-fortress 2v2 maps because it's way too easy for 2 players to all-in one guy. If they spawn in the fortress one has a super easy natural while the other can still get it easily but it's a little tougher, which is fine. I like the amount of open space in the middle of the map with the lone watchtower to watch over it. Again, I wish there wasn't the DO main and you just added more areas to expand / harass / move through out the map, currently I feel that really ruins the flow of the map.
Abarrach: Big enough mains which is nice and 1 safe natural. I'd like another safe natural though as well, especially since one person is going to expand outwards and it might be a little too tough to hold. What's up with the random 1/2 bases so many of you guys are putting on your 2v2 maps? So one person is suppose to grab the 1/2 base while the other gets the full base right below it? I think the non fly zone you added just puts too much limited movement space in this map. Also might be a little dull because of the one giant path of lowground that armies will have to attack through.
Conclusion: Honestly out of all these maps I feel I'd have most fun playing NeoSteel Fortress. 2nd favorite map would probably be Fiery Divide, but I have to give the edge to NeoSteel just because of the chance to be split base in Fiery. For Neosteel, you've got a decent sized main with safe enough naturals for each player that allow buildings down there if the main isn't big enough. You also get to move all around the map which gives the map nice flow because attacks could be coming from anywhere, rather then all funneled through one path. Again I wish some of the non-main or natural ramps where a little bigger to open up the map a bit and I hope the main closest to the middle can't be owned by Siege tanks that easily.
Good job NewSunshine, you've got my vote!
ps. Good work to everybody that submitted maps, it's awesome to see a nice batch of maps that you only get a limited time to work on coming through. I hope this challenge stuff keeps going and quite possibly if I get some more time I'll have to try to compete one of these times.
The creep of a zerg player does not block their ally's main building, nor does it prevent you from walling it off. You do, however, have to be careful of creep tumors. I'll be sure to try that LOSB trick, but right now my editor keeps crashing on me
@ Sidian: It's true for both players to expand comfortably to their natural one has to walk a very far distance. However I think this encourages one player to be aggressive or to tech while the other expands, which I think is more interesting than allowing for perfectly parallel builds. It makes it harder to play with a random ally because you have to agree with the plan, but I think it allows for a little more depth. I hadn't thought about all 400 supply in one place... though I suppose that's bound to happen, isn't it? Damn!
I can confirm LOS blockers won't do anything as I had the same problem with Rocks on a Ship before I fixed it (although in that case, it was a worse problem because you were dealing w/ the workers mining the ENEMY base not an ally's), and LOS blockers didn't do anything to stop the workers from trying to mine the other mineral line. My "fix" might work for you.. just lower a narrow strip of ground inbetween the mineral lines (and of course make it inpassable so the enemy can't do any cheeky drops there).
I think either you have to be cool w/ workers mining both lines, or distance the lines by a little more, or maybe try the chasm thing I mentioned.
I don't see it as a major problem either way (even if one player is "stealing" from his partner's mineral line, you can always send your ally minerals to even it out if need be).
+1 to Tortuganic. I think it needs a little refinement in a few spots, but it looks like the most fun out of the bunch.
On November 13 2012 11:11 RFDaemoniac wrote: The creep of a zerg player does not block their ally's main building, nor does it prevent you from walling it off.
That is pretty much all I needed to hear. I endorse Tortuganic Crater with my extra vote.
On November 13 2012 08:44 Monochromatic wrote: This map is a prime example of where someone makes a 1v1 map, adds another main and natural, and calls it done. Personally, I don't see any Desert Oasis elements in this map. That said, the map looks solid. Probably the strongest map in terms of balance and, but the weakest in terms of sticking to the theme.
I do feel the need to disagree with the thoughts behind this. I won't defy your opinions or anything of the sort, but it just reads to me in the same way that a "looks like Daybreak" post does. I agree that perhaps I could have gone further with the theme, but it does have some characteristics of Desert Oasis, but they're less obvious and more flow-related:
-3 Xel'Naga Towers that cover all ground paths -One of the two mains is situated very much like DO's main and is very easy to harass by air/tank -Large distances to cover the sides of the map -General expansion setup encourages air/drop play more than usual, as DO does
I also don't really like how the side paths turned out, but that has mostly to do with the limited time frame. If I'd sat down with this map for a week it would have gone through a thousand more iterations and would look much better. But that's not really the point of this. It was still a good bit of fun, I wouldn't mind doing one of these every 2 weeks, instead of months.
I'd like to +1 Samro's Fiery Divide with my extra vote and spread the love! (My poll vote went to Fatam's Walkabout).
EDIT: I also do feel that NewSunshine built his map in the spirit of the Jam, so no hard feelings there, just that it's less exaggerated than I wanted to see
However, I forgot to +1 a map, so Fiery Divide gets it. I feel that although there are other equally solid maps it has that interesting variable structure that comes from the 3rd-nipple-main.
On November 13 2012 08:44 Monochromatic wrote: This map is a prime example of where someone makes a 1v1 map, adds another main and natural, and calls it done. Personally, I don't see any Desert Oasis elements in this map. That said, the map looks solid. Probably the strongest map in terms of balance and, but the weakest in terms of sticking to the theme.
I do feel the need to disagree with the thoughts behind this. I won't defy your opinions or anything of the sort, but it just reads to me in the same way that a "looks like Daybreak" post does. I agree that perhaps I could have gone further with the theme, but it does have some characteristics of Desert Oasis, but they're less obvious and more flow-related:
-3 Xel'Naga Towers that cover all ground paths -One of the two mains is situated very much like DO's main and is very easy to harass by air/tank -Large distances to cover the sides of the map -General expansion setup encourages air/drop play more than usual, as DO does
I also don't really like how the side paths turned out, but that has mostly to do with the limited time frame. If I'd sat down with this map for a week it would have gone through a thousand more iterations and would look much better. But that's not really the point of this. It was still a good bit of fun, I wouldn't mind doing one of these every 2 weeks, instead of months.
I understood the "Desert Oasis Mains" requirement as the mains are in the middle of a map. However it is open to interpretation, which is what makes this map contest different. I am sorry if I offended you.
Also, I completely agree that these should be biweekly instead of bimonthly.
I would love to do every 2 weeks or even every week as I'm sorely addicted to mapmaking right now, but I wouldn't object to it being a little less often as I understand some people don't have as much free time and I wouldn't want things to be unfair. Perhaps we should put it to a vote.
Sadn Ocean 2 is one of the few maps with enough space, NeoSteal Fortress (and most maps) could use some extra space - especially for more interesting middle areas (Sand Ocean 2, Attica, etc.) or simplified space and more clear layouts at least (Tortuganic). also some maps lack the big idea how to implement DO or have some very soft DO (NeoSteal Fortress, Fiery Fields).
I like the strange ideas better overall, since i feel like some of the more solid maps need to be extra solid in all areas and one cannot forget about the space needed in 2v2
I voted for Sand Ocean 2 for its actual playability and at the same time implementing true DO in both aspects: full path and closer air.
My personal vote from a map maker for a map maker actually would need to be split between Attica and Tortuganic, but i guess i have to go with Tortuganic for its lovely DO feeling.
On November 13 2012 13:45 Fatam wrote: I would love to do every 2 weeks or even every week as I'm sorely addicted to mapmaking right now, but I wouldn't object to it being a little less often as I understand some people don't have as much free time and I wouldn't want things to be unfair. Perhaps we should put it to a vote.
also "3rd nipple main", really? lolol
I am even unsure if i can do it every month and i think it is important to create some regular pattern. Maybe it would be also interesting to through together all ideas and make the maps here better/bring them to a finished state in the time until the next Map Jam & Challenge. When I discussed the format with ScorpSCII we did not want to interfer woth MotM or other formats like TLMC(!). So bi-monthly or monthly is actually quite good if you consider that some guys will finish their maps in a more serious fashion which would be awesome considering how few cool 2v2 maps are around.
edit: what could be interesting is a smaller timeframe that yet respects the participats' timezones, e.g. a true speedmapping format of 5 hours where you know everybody is working on somthing right now. i would recommend a simpler topic to really showcase true speedmapping ability and produce good maps, so 1v1 would be set and it is only gameplayspecific topics as well as tilesets: towers + backdoors and two different tilesets would be a starting point.
On November 13 2012 12:03 Fatam wrote: I can confirm LOS blockers won't do anything as I had the same problem with Rocks on a Ship before I fixed it (although in that case, it was a worse problem because you were dealing w/ the workers mining the ENEMY base not an ally's), and LOS blockers didn't do anything to stop the workers from trying to mine the other mineral line. My "fix" might work for you.. just lower a narrow strip of ground inbetween the mineral lines (and of course make it inpassable so the enemy can't do any cheeky drops there).
I think either you have to be cool w/ workers mining both lines, or distance the lines by a little more, or maybe try the chasm thing I mentioned.
I don't see it as a major problem either way (even if one player is "stealing" from his partner's mineral line, you can always send your ally minerals to even it out if need be).
+1 to Tortuganic. I think it needs a little refinement in a few spots, but it looks like the most fun out of the bunch.
someone posted a concept map in the wip thread a while back, i believe workers will try to mine upto 3 mineral fields deep
Is a fix for that really needed? It's a team game, why not let players share the love? It doesn't really break anything, just makes this map have an interesting feature imho.
On November 14 2012 11:14 lorestarcraft wrote: Ya know, I signed up but was never sent my map restrictions
They were posted in this thread -- I don't think they were PM'ed to anyone.
Unfortunately, some work stuff came up for me and I was not able to participate. However, I'd like to give some feedback about all the maps when I get the chance. I do have a few things I'd like to get out now though before I forget. I like some of the ideas that were presented here like the two separate no fly area maps (in the same contest!). In the end though, I voted for Sand Ocean because I think it looks like a pretty clean 2v2 experience that also really captures the theme (i.e. restrictions) of the contest.
The the other two in my personal top three (I mean, there are only what, eight maps?) are Attica and Fiery Divide which happen to share yet another common theme independantly executed. Attica I think could make an extremely awesome 1v1 / 2v2 map by the addition of some invulnerable obsticle (rocks?) to that tiny bridge between naturals when a 1v1 (via triggers) to allow for all spawn combinations, although as a 2v2, I'd probably like to see that gap widened with some rocks maybe on both sides of the gap since later in the game you probably don't want to be bouncing through there with a sizeable army -- coming to help save your partner might prove to be quite difficult otherwise.
Oh yeah, also special mention to Scorp for Fiery Grounds/Fields/something? for unlocking the "unwittingly fulfilled HypertonicHydroponic's restriction suggestion" achievement -- which was create 6 or 8 spawn 1v1/2v2 map. I'd love to see a 2v2v2v2 go down here.
On November 14 2012 11:14 lorestarcraft wrote: Ya know, I signed up but was never sent my map restrictions
I am very sorry that we missed a possible contribution, yet I have to keep administration minimal. Noone was send anything, everything took place here in this thread. PM was needed to keep the possible topics secret until two were picked just before the contest started.
as i explained earlier i want this to be a community thing where people produce something fun together. I am not into organizing a MotM on experimental maps surreal concept combinations
also it is up to you to take action, be part of it and contribute. actually the timeframe of this Map Jam & Challenge was the first thing that was communicated several days before.
RFDaemoniac - Tortuganic Crater wins the Map Jam & Challenge #1.
Congratulations and many thanks to everyone who took part. The results are great considering the difficulty of this first challenge and i think we should be encouraged to have more such events.
On November 18 2012 09:21 Samro225am wrote: RFDaemoniac - Tortuganic Crater wins the Map Jam & Challenge #1.
Congratulations and many thanks to everyone who took part. The results are great considering the difficulty of this first challenge and i think we should be encouraged to have more such events.
So, the poll currently shows NewSunshine's map as the top choice... did RFDaemonic win because of the extra mapper vote or did the poll change after this announcement?
On November 18 2012 09:21 Samro225am wrote: RFDaemoniac - Tortuganic Crater wins the Map Jam & Challenge #1.
Congratulations and many thanks to everyone who took part. The results are great considering the difficulty of this first challenge and i think we should be encouraged to have more such events.
So, the poll currently shows NewSunshine's map as the top choice... did RFDaemonic win because of the extra mapper vote or did the poll change after this announcement?
Thanks ^^ I'll be making some edits to Tortuganic Crater in the coming week since there were some great critiques here. I'd also be happy to run the next iteration of this. Speaking of which, when do we want this to happen? The original idea was every other month but I and several others have expressed interest in making this more frequent. Every month? Every two weeks? I'd rather that this be a long-term thing and every month makes more sense on that regard, as every two weeks would require quite a bit of commitment/participation, though I suppose not everybody has to participate in each one, of course.
I miss 2v2 a bit, I remember when I was a bigtime SC2 scrub (well, I still am kind of) me and my friend did Z+P 2v2. It was either some kind of early gate aggression w/ a pylon and overlord giving highground vision while he attacked the front wall w/ lings or roaches, or against a team w/ at least 1 Terran it was early roach aggression with me following soon w/ void rays. If they made a lot of marauders or tanks to defend the roaches it's lol