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Blizzard can't make the game as friendly to play as League of Legends, so Destiny focuses on improving the battle.net experience. I'm not sure why it would ultimately matter though, unless we're simply concerned with Blizzard's status as top developer. Most of the good ideas of the UMS scenes have over the years been developed into stand alone games and the indie scene has come a long way also. I'm not sure why an aspiring developer would necessarily start out with mastering the SC2 map editor. Sure it is nice to have as an option, it offers a fairly accessible method of creating games, but it is less relevant for the game industry now than it was ten years ago. The SC2 map editor isn't even as good as the one from WC3 anyway, because you have way less models available to you.
The one responsibility Blizzard has, from my perspective, is for them to create good core gameplay. All the rest is just a bonus and will help with regards to marketing the professional scene to casual users of battle.net, but ultimately, if people aren't interested in your game it won't have long-term potential. SC2 is still relatively young and to me it seems like at least WoL has no further grow potential. It's simply not as fun as Brood War and audiences pick up on these things, or at least, I did. I think it's no surprise that most interest in SC2 was around release, because it's a period of time when people played the campaign and could have actually been wowed by fun gameplay. Now that all those memories have faded and we're just left with, dunno, watching Squirtle vs Happy in the GSL, it's no longer as alluring.
I thought WC3 wasn't as suitable as an e-sports, but it did have very cool core gameplay, superior to SC2 in my opinion. The game wasn't all that hard, but the superior players could beat the weaker ones more consistently than in SC2, so I don't see why they can't make a game that's fun to play, but also has enough skill differences between two players. I don't even care how they do it, if they have to create a separate 1v1 mode with ultra hard mechanics, then perhaps that's necessary, but I imagine there are other ways. Even just properly balancing the game and getting rid of skill equalizing strats such as bl/infestor would help a lot.
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On October 27 2012 02:00 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:40 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:
[quote]
I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring. The problem is people see complaining and harassing as the same thing. The guys on ITG were saying that harassing Blizzard through twitter, forums and other routes is not productive. Complaining to them or providing feed back though standard channels is more productive, but people who do it should not expect an instant or any response. Harassing them through twitter will likely only lead to somone in their marketing department asking they are interacting with a community that only says bad things about their upcomming game. That is not an internal discussion we want happening at Blizzard, since they make way more money off of the people who buy the game only for the single player. Even if SC2 was on the decline, the whole community screaming about it does not help anything and would only stifle efforts to change things. The rest of the stuff you are talking about are all things that have been building for a while. Slayers imploding was a long time comming. Other players signed up with shady teams and stream counts are lower because to much Starcraft 2. Also, most events have been using the same map pool for nearly 6 months, which is making the game a bit stale. I get it. Instead of saying "SC2 is so boring, I don't play it anymore, Blizzard pls make it fun or I won't buy HOTS" people should say something along "ZvP seems to evolved into a single strategy of Broodlord/infestors vs Mothership, we need to diversify it a bit". I agree with it. But here are couple of things to note: When you want some company who are selling a product to improve their product, its not enough if couple of people complain about it and make some well constructed suggestions. Why would a company change anything due to couple of peoples opinion. Therefore a huge chunk customers need to raise up and show that they are dissatisfied with the product. Now, when a big crowd acts, some of them come up with good suggestions and some of them just rant about their dissatisfaction, others just make "+1" posts just to let the company know they're in that crowd. Which is kinda becomes harassing, but still some people bring up good suggestions. Which is why I'm saying cluttering twitter, TL and battle.net with dissatisfaction post is only way Blizzard will listen to us. You think people weren't complaining past 2 years? They did, but Blizzard did little to nothing. But now they have a good reason to actually do something. They gotta sell as many HOts copies as they can.
I am not going to argue with you on that, because you are correct. However, people on TL and in this community forget that we are a very very very small section of the people who bought WoL. 4.6 million copies of WoL were sold world wide, but there are currently on around 400,000 active accounts(placed for this season) on Battle.net. A lot of those accounts are just people who are ranked in Bronze league. This means that Blizzard makes way more money off of people who never play multiplayer of any form. One way to sell more copies of HotS is to ignore our community, beacuse all we make for them in negative PR and focus on people who love the single player, who outnumber us.
That is no going to happen, but there are two sides to every argument. Screaming fire to get someones attention is not always helpful or productive. And the people arguing a more even approach have a valid opinion and good points to be made.
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So, with all the complaining that exists, and the different viewpoints of either side, we all agree that the game is not quite satisfactory yet, with respect to UI, Balance, or what not.
Balance is somewhat in Blizz's court, so lets ignore that for now.
With respect to UI, we're missing some of the aforementioned things in the thread. As a community, I guess what we could ask ourselves is how do we make that better? If the answer is to not rely on Blizzard and complain to them regarding x or y, could we not attempt to write mods that would help benefit the experience? Such as the color mod that exists (ling baneling suddenly much easier to watch/ identify)
I just feel like with all the complaining that has happened, no one has really put forth a good suggestion of how to fix it, regardless of the viewpoint of "It's up to Blizzard", or "they're not dependable". I'm inclined to move towards "they're not dependable" because that gives the incentive to try and do something about it.
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On October 27 2012 02:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 02:00 bokeevboke wrote:On October 27 2012 01:40 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you.
Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring. The problem is people see complaining and harassing as the same thing. The guys on ITG were saying that harassing Blizzard through twitter, forums and other routes is not productive. Complaining to them or providing feed back though standard channels is more productive, but people who do it should not expect an instant or any response. Harassing them through twitter will likely only lead to somone in their marketing department asking they are interacting with a community that only says bad things about their upcomming game. That is not an internal discussion we want happening at Blizzard, since they make way more money off of the people who buy the game only for the single player. Even if SC2 was on the decline, the whole community screaming about it does not help anything and would only stifle efforts to change things. The rest of the stuff you are talking about are all things that have been building for a while. Slayers imploding was a long time comming. Other players signed up with shady teams and stream counts are lower because to much Starcraft 2. Also, most events have been using the same map pool for nearly 6 months, which is making the game a bit stale. I get it. Instead of saying "SC2 is so boring, I don't play it anymore, Blizzard pls make it fun or I won't buy HOTS" people should say something along "ZvP seems to evolved into a single strategy of Broodlord/infestors vs Mothership, we need to diversify it a bit". I agree with it. But here are couple of things to note: When you want some company who are selling a product to improve their product, its not enough if couple of people complain about it and make some well constructed suggestions. Why would a company change anything due to couple of peoples opinion. Therefore a huge chunk customers need to raise up and show that they are dissatisfied with the product. Now, when a big crowd acts, some of them come up with good suggestions and some of them just rant about their dissatisfaction, others just make "+1" posts just to let the company know they're in that crowd. Which is kinda becomes harassing, but still some people bring up good suggestions. Which is why I'm saying cluttering twitter, TL and battle.net with dissatisfaction post is only way Blizzard will listen to us. You think people weren't complaining past 2 years? They did, but Blizzard did little to nothing. But now they have a good reason to actually do something. They gotta sell as many HOts copies as they can. I am not going to argue with you on that, because you are correct. However, people on TL and in this community forget that we are a very very very small section of the people who bought WoL. 4.6 million copies of WoL were sold world wide, but there are currently on around 400,000 active accounts(placed for this season) on Battle.net. A lot of those accounts are just people who are ranked in Bronze league. This means that Blizzard makes way more money off of people who never play multiplayer of any form. One way to sell more copies of HotS is to ignore our community, beacuse all we make for them in negative PR and focus on people who love the single player, who outnumber us. That is no going to happen, but there are two sides to every argument. Screaming fire to get someones attention is not always helpful or productive. And the people arguing a more even approach have a valid opinion and good points to be made.
tbh I think we all have similar opinion, and argue with each other over its interpretation.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 27 2012 01:59 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:
[quote]
What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement?
Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- Can you honestly answer these two very important questions: What, as a community figure, can you do to promote the game to people outside our community? Do you have any suggestions as to what we, the casual player base, can do to promote the scene outside our community?
Pretty easy really.. each time we do an interview with the mainstream media outlets or we travel we are given an opportunity to discuss the game on a broader level. We talk about the competition but we also talk about what goes into it.. the personalities, the extent of training etc..
We also have documentaries coming out that do a great job. Sons of Starcraft, the White-rA one the EG docs etc..
Day/Husky on youtube constantly working even outside our game specifically but always saying "ah well I am a Sc2 guy" etc.
We have people making SC2 musical parodies.. we have talk shows with over 10k people watching (sotg) or around 4-5 (itg) . The work is being done. What can do we differently? Continue to build our base until we have a breakthrough or are given a chance to shine (ESPN, tv etc). I don't like the idea that is circulating that is "well, it's been 2 years and we are no longer the #1 game, surely that means we are dying" nope. It means for the first time another game worthy of choosing has been cultivated to a point where it can challenge/surpass SC2 in viewership etc.. but I've been around gaming for nearly 20 years and I can tell you this doesn't mean we keel over and fucking die. It means we work harder to fight for the #1 spot and even if we have to settle for #2/3 IN THE WORLD OF GAMING we should be fine with that.
As far as the casual base is concerned that is all about sales and Steven was right that is mostly blizzard. Make the single player more engaging, have better UMS interface/support, create a better social experience and knock down the price or make it free to play on some level. I do agree that the casual base is important to the overall game but this idea that if we don't focus 100% on casuals = the game dies BEFORE LOTV is ludicrous. Nobody will take that bet with me.. nobody. As far as non blizzard work for the casuals well.. imo it is our job to create a more fun experience for them beyond just the game. Having commentators make the game MORE accessible is a nice push. Having more instructional content out there (pro tips from eg) is a nice tool (free btw is key) and in general doing more fun stuff (tl attack) that is fun no matter what your understanding is. Casuals that see that stuff then want to get involved is what steven was speaking about (I think).
Time to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and not whine that blizzard is our only salvation.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:
[quote]
What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement?
Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring.
I can't help but to think you are some kind of insane test against my patience. NO. I DO NOT SAY DON'T COMPLAIN TO BLIZZARD
NO
NO
NO.
I say don't think ONLY complaining to blizzard is what you can do. DON'T think that you MUST complain to blizzard as your ONLY way to "keep this game alive"
I stopped reading there but now I am reading the rest of your post and I wish I wasn't. Yep. Players are unpaid which is not mutually exclusive from what was going on at the beginning of the game when it was #1. Teams disbanding you say? Sounds like something has dated back to the beginning of SC2 and gaming in general. Players are switching games? What, you mean like they always have? The fact that moba is successful and doing well does not mean SC2 dies. It means gaming is on the rise.. something we should be happy about. Did you think this world needed SC2 to be the only playable esport for it to be good?
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On October 27 2012 02:30 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:59 Urasim wrote:On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right?
Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- Can you honestly answer these two very important questions: What, as a community figure, can you do to promote the game to people outside our community? Do you have any suggestions as to what we, the casual player base, can do to promote the scene outside our community? Pretty easy really.. each time we do an interview with the mainstream media outlets or we travel we are given an opportunity to discuss the game on a broader level. We talk about the competition but we also talk about what goes into it.. the personalities, the extent of training etc.. We also have documentaries coming out that do a great job. Sons of Starcraft, the White-rA one the EG docs etc.. Day/Husky on youtube constantly working even outside our game specifically but always saying "ah well I am a Sc2 guy" etc. We have people making SC2 musical parodies.. we have talk shows with over 10k people watching (sotg) or around 4-5 (itg) . The work is being done. What can do we differently? Continue to build our base until we have a breakthrough or are given a chance to shine (ESPN, tv etc). I don't like the idea that is circulating that is "well, it's been 2 years and we are no longer the #1 game, surely that means we are dying" nope. It means for the first time another game worthy of choosing has been cultivated to a point where it can challenge/surpass SC2 in viewership etc.. but I've been around gaming for nearly 20 years and I can tell you this doesn't mean we keel over and fucking die. It means we work harder to fight for the #1 spot and even if we have to settle for #2/3 IN THE WORLD OF GAMING we should be fine with that. As far as the casual base is concerned that is all about sales and Steven was right that is mostly blizzard. Make the single player more engaging, have better UMS interface/support, create a better social experience and knock down the price or make it free to play on some level. I do agree that the casual base is important to the overall game but this idea that if we don't focus 100% on casuals = the game dies BEFORE LOTV is ludicrous. Nobody will take that bet with me.. nobody. As far as non blizzard work for the casuals well.. imo it is our job to create a more fun experience for them beyond just the game. Having commentators make the game MORE accessible is a nice push. Having more instructional content out there (pro tips from eg) is a nice tool (free btw is key) and in general doing more fun stuff (tl attack) that is fun no matter what your understanding is. Casuals that see that stuff then want to get involved is what steven was speaking about (I think). Time to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and not whine that blizzard is our only salvation.
This one is really good conclusion to this discussion. Too bad it wasn't done in the podcast.
It also fixes some flaws in my opinion. thx Incontrol.
edit: I acknowledge my mistakes. I didn't understood fully what was going in your minds. Disregard my previous posts pls.
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I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win"
Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.-
Absolutely, you never stated you didn't complain to Blizzard. Also, Destiny's post was sort of a rant, but the basic implication wasn't that SC2 is "dead", but that the growth is stagnant and won't increase unless you get more people playing the game and having fun. And the current business model had a lot of people thinking this esport would grow more, so there will be some contraction going on in the future. I don't think that's an outlandish suggestion.
Given the amount of "complaining" done on these shows, I do find it interesting that no one has ever come out and said - this mechanic needs to be changed, it's bogus and it's causing a barrier to entry for new players. Or if the map pool needs to be changed - it's great for pros but doesn't make sense for the average gamer. Take a look at the warhound and how Painuser got made fun of because he thought the unit was fun and refreshing. Yes, it was too powerful and needed some modifications, but but then it's like the "elitist" crowd comes out and it's like "fun... WTF... skill cap blah blah...".
Essentially, you have this "niche" and really you don't think outside of this. Which is okay if you're just playing for fun but when it's your business model that's at stake here, you'd assume that everyone would be more flexible in their views.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
wrong
Destiny specifically said it would be dead before lotv
Wrong
I did say numerous times that we complain to blizzard.. hello? As if I fucking have to state that? Go youtube SOTG half the videos are me mocking the decisions blizzard makes.
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On October 27 2012 03:50 iNcontroL wrote:
wrong
Destiny specifically said it would be dead before lotv
Wrong
I did say numerous times that we complain to blizzard.. hello? As if I fucking having to state that? Go youtube SOTG half the videos are me mocking the decisions blizzard makes.
I think people need to get that destiny is assuming way too much right now. Theres too many factors going in for him to make statements like hes making like that it will be dead by LOTV. Hes assuming that Blizzard is gonna continue being dipshits on UI forever, then i would have to sorta agree with him, but I really doubt that they are going to keep doing that. If they do then blizzard is officially the stupidest shit ive ever seen but he needs to give HOTS time.
Please correct me if im wrong :d
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On October 27 2012 03:50 iNcontroL wrote:
wrong
Destiny specifically said it would be dead before lotv
Wrong
I did say numerous times that we complain to blizzard.. hello? As if I fucking having to state that? Go youtube SOTG half the videos are me mocking the decisions blizzard makes.
I totally agree with you, people need to stop bitching and do something. Blizzard wont powder their ass for free.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 27 2012 03:56 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 03:50 iNcontroL wrote:
wrong
Destiny specifically said it would be dead before lotv
Wrong
I did say numerous times that we complain to blizzard.. hello? As if I fucking having to state that? Go youtube SOTG half the videos are me mocking the decisions blizzard makes. I think people need to get that destiny is assuming way too much right now. Theres too many factors going in for him to make statements like hes making like that it will be dead by LOTV. Hes assuming that Blizzard is gonna continue being dipshits on UI forever, then i would have to sorta agree with him, but I really doubt that they are going to keep doing that. If they do then blizzard is officially the stupidest shit ive ever seen but he needs to give HOTS time. Please correct me if im wrong :d
That would be really dumb tbh.
Already the changes he is asking for are being released. Each time we brought that up he said "IT TOOK 2 FUCKING YEARS" Yep. It sucked waiting.. but it's coming which imo means that change is coming and blizzard is doing their part to keep it going forward. Not at the rate we want. Not in the way we want (LAN) but it is there. THAT is why i am so strong arm about not 100% relying on blizz. I have faith they will do something I just don't want to create a complacent community that stops trying by putting all responsibility on blizzard.
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On October 27 2012 02:33 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right?
Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring. I can't help but to think you are some kind of insane test against my patience. NO. I DO NOT SAY DON'T COMPLAIN TO BLIZZARD NO NO NO.
Okay. Let me make sure I have you right here... *reads over message*. Yup, I think I got it. So Geoff, if I read you carefully, like really really meticulously, you are saying we should NOT complain to Blizzard.... right?
+ Show Spoiler +
dont let the idiots get to you
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On October 27 2012 04:04 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 03:56 Picklebread wrote:On October 27 2012 03:50 iNcontroL wrote:
wrong
Destiny specifically said it would be dead before lotv
Wrong
I did say numerous times that we complain to blizzard.. hello? As if I fucking having to state that? Go youtube SOTG half the videos are me mocking the decisions blizzard makes. I think people need to get that destiny is assuming way too much right now. Theres too many factors going in for him to make statements like hes making like that it will be dead by LOTV. Hes assuming that Blizzard is gonna continue being dipshits on UI forever, then i would have to sorta agree with him, but I really doubt that they are going to keep doing that. If they do then blizzard is officially the stupidest shit ive ever seen but he needs to give HOTS time. Please correct me if im wrong :d That would be really dumb tbh. Already the changes he is asking for are being released. Each time we brought that up he said "IT TOOK 2 FUCKING YEARS" Yep. It sucked waiting.. but it's coming which imo means that change is coming and blizzard is doing their part to keep it going forward. Not at the rate we want. Not in the way we want (LAN) but it is there. THAT is why i am so strong arm about not 100% relying on blizz. I have faith they will do something I just don't want to create a complacent community that stops trying by putting all responsibility on blizzard.
People are "putting all responsibility" on Blizzard in regard to the things only they can do, i.e. game design, balance and UI. Personally I wish we would have sufficient tools to create balanced mods and make that into the standard over Blizzard's design, kinda like they did with Quake 3. But as long as that doesn't happen, we should work towards a better viewing experience, yes, but also complain to Blizzard about the things we can't fix. It can only be positive. (EDIT: I know you said you are FOR complaining to Blizzard, but you're also saying shitstorms are bad, so what's the solution there?)
Also I get your point about Destiny's post being over dramatic, but the thing is that so many people are just fed up with Blizzard and are frustrated enough for that post to resonate with them. And again, I see it as a good thing - the louder these things get, the more chances Blizzard will notice and want to do something about it. And when the game's fixed, and more people are drawn to the game, sponsors will come naturally. Would you agree?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that.
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On October 27 2012 04:30 iNcontroL wrote:
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that.
I see what you're saying. But I think Blizzard is smart enough to know the community isn't "going to hell", and they would see it is - an expression of their customers' dissatisfaction. Just look at the shitstorm over Mass Effect 3's ending. And they fixed that shit. So why not?
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On October 27 2012 04:36 RezJ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:30 iNcontroL wrote:
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that. I see what you're saying. But I think Blizzard is smart enough to know the community isn't "going to hell", and they would see it is - an expression of their customers' dissatisfaction. Just look at the shitstorm over Mass Effect 3's ending. And they fixed that shit. So why not?
Most of the professionals who reported on the Mass Effect 3 ending believe that the changed ending was in the works all along. The turn around time on the change, additional artwork and most importantly additional voice work, denoted that the game was pushed out the door before the ending was completed. Three months is not enough time to do all the work they did on that ending, unless they had it in production before the game launched.
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On October 27 2012 02:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:49 xuanzue wrote:People are asking for everything and the sun, but there are only so many hours in the day. Captain obvious here: If they had take care before the #savehosts rant, they would have more hours. No one is saying that is not true, but unless you invent a time machine, it is a pointless to harp on the issue. Blizzard had other games they were making and did not use their staff to add features to WoL. Now those games are out and they are focusing on HotS back end on battle net. You can either complain it should have been done earlier or put forth some constructive feed back when the new patch comes.
well without a beta key I can't give any feedback, you know, browder and kim only read the beta forum, and the community managers are useless personal. there were a lot of concerns before the #savehots rant, and they didn't nothing.
overall, HotS is worth $15 dollars. maybe $20 with the last features.
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Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
iNcontroL: You seem to still be looking at this purely from financial motivation. Why should anyone care about helping market a game they are dissatisfied with? In fact, helping Blizzard market the game in its current state just sends the message to them that everything is great and we want more of the same.
Most people want changes to improve the gameplay or viewing experience, you just want more customers. It's a difference in priorities.
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On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
iNcontroL: You seem to still be looking at this purely from financial motivation. Why should anyone care about helping market a game they are dissatisfied with? In fact, helping Blizzard market the game in its current state just sends the message to them that everything is great and we want more of the same.
Most people want changes to improve the gameplay or viewing experience, you just want more customers. It's a difference in priorities.
seriously I saw a post 2 days ago describing your troll nature and there is no point argueing with you. But 2 days later here you are still going just stop people..
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EPT
