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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance.
Fair warning to all. |
On October 06 2012 16:49 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. I don't know if you're actually trying to troll or you really believe what you write, but I actually remember you being the guy who said that LoL wasn't that big in China compared to DotA, so I'm going to take whatever you say with a massive chunk of salt. You admitted that you don't follow LoL that closely so maybe you actually should be more acquainted with the scenes before you make blanket statements like "China is terrible at LoL" or "China is on equal level with NA in LoL". On one hand, WE definitely played like shit in the IPL Face Offs and the recent OGN, while iG and TPA has played terribly in every OGN online invitational in the last couple months, so you may actually be right. On the other hand, it's stupid and obnoxious to make such a blanket statement before WE has even played a match at the World Championships, and when TPA is still going strong. In any case, iG beat CLG.na and SK (i.e. China > NA and China>EU by your logic) before losing to M5. If a rational thinker were to make such a blanket statement, he or she must surely have to wait until all the Chinese teams have been eliminated (whereas, one can already conclude NA is below the rest since all three NA teams were beaten convincingly). I call M5 and CLG.eu outliers because they are far, far above the rest of EU. If you follow the LoL scene, you could pretty much rank NA/EU like this: M5 >= CLG.eu > TSM> rest of NA > rest of EU. The world ranking would be something like this: Frost = Blaze >= M5 >= CLG.eu >= TPA >= WE >= Korea = TSM (> rest of China IMO) > rest of NA > rest of EU So, logically do you take M5 and CLG.eu as your EU basis of comparison or a balance with the rest of EU?
LoL wasn't that big in China compared to Dota last I checked. I don't know how it measures up now, but there were 10 million active Dota players in China when I said it. Besides that, you're correct that it's too early to say that China <= NA but I never made that statement. I just said that NA and China were at the lower end of the competitive spectrum from the other regions - ie Europe and Korea.
As for your ranking, is this a LoL thing? To put teams within a region outside of that region?
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United States222 Posts
I personally don't get why most of the talk is about Koreans OP.
I think TPA and WE is going to do pretty well for themselves. Then it would be 1 team each out of Korea, Russia, Taiwan, and China.
So pretty much even with them I think.
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On October 06 2012 17:22 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. That's the sort of hypocrisy I despise in eSports, where every victory of Asian teams / players over Western teams / players is used to fuel the 'Asian gamers are superior' stereotype and every vicfory of Western teams / players over Asian teams / players is dismissed for an 'outlier' / 'fluke' that doesn't show a thing. It's a sad display and needs to stop. I'm hesitant to associate m5 wit the EU scene because they dont play remotely the same style as the rest of EU and, as I've stated, see the game far differently than any other team. Its that same reason I wouldn't say, consider the Saigon jokers part of the Chinese Scene, or China part of the Korean scene, even though they're closer to each other in terms of distance on a map than m5 is to the rest of European teams. We've already established, here, in BW, in SC2 and in DotA; that Asians own white dudes overall, nobody has ever disagreed with the undeniable fact that m5 looks to be one of the strongest teams in the world, a label that I wouldn't give any other NA/EU team. Have you admitted that NA sucks at DotA yet? You recall Chinese teams losing to nonames at 4 am in the morning in China in IPL, but do u remember the 2-0 they gave clg.na shortly before that? There are standout teams in a scene yes, but when one team is so far above the rest of the team in the scene in terms of skill as the case of Na'Vi in DotA, M5 in LoL, or Stephano in SC2, you can't take their best performance as an indicator as to you good the scene is in comparison to others.
I don't deny that there are standouts in scenes, but in a scene such as LoL where half the regions only send their 2-3 best teams to international tournaments, it's rather useless to talk about the 'rest of the region' that we don't even see in these tournaments. Only NA / EU mid-tier teams regularly come to these big international LANs and that's because these LANs are held in the US / EU. The other regions send their best because that's how the format works and how expensive it is to bring 5-6 people over from Asia each tournament per team. So why don't we judge each region by how well the best of each region do against each other, instead of mid-tier NA / EU teams vs. the best of Korea / China?
After all, that's what people do in SC 2 when Random_Code_B_Korean gets taken out by a NA / EU player. They say - who cares till it's MVP and DRG - and nowadays the Kespa top pros? I say - who cares till it's M5 TSM and CLG.eu? When TSM lost, you saw me agreeing that NA sucks. So when IG and Najin lost, is that not relevant? Sure, WE and Azubu Frost are still in the running, but surely it matters that both of the Asian scenes have already lost one of their top teams each?
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United States222 Posts
On October 06 2012 18:48 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 17:22 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. That's the sort of hypocrisy I despise in eSports, where every victory of Asian teams / players over Western teams / players is used to fuel the 'Asian gamers are superior' stereotype and every vicfory of Western teams / players over Asian teams / players is dismissed for an 'outlier' / 'fluke' that doesn't show a thing. It's a sad display and needs to stop. I'm hesitant to associate m5 wit the EU scene because they dont play remotely the same style as the rest of EU and, as I've stated, see the game far differently than any other team. Its that same reason I wouldn't say, consider the Saigon jokers part of the Chinese Scene, or China part of the Korean scene, even though they're closer to each other in terms of distance on a map than m5 is to the rest of European teams. We've already established, here, in BW, in SC2 and in DotA; that Asians own white dudes overall, nobody has ever disagreed with the undeniable fact that m5 looks to be one of the strongest teams in the world, a label that I wouldn't give any other NA/EU team. Have you admitted that NA sucks at DotA yet? You recall Chinese teams losing to nonames at 4 am in the morning in China in IPL, but do u remember the 2-0 they gave clg.na shortly before that? There are standout teams in a scene yes, but when one team is so far above the rest of the team in the scene in terms of skill as the case of Na'Vi in DotA, M5 in LoL, or Stephano in SC2, you can't take their best performance as an indicator as to you good the scene is in comparison to others. I don't deny that there are standouts in scenes, but in a scene such as LoL where half the regions only send their 2-3 best teams to international tournaments, it's rather useless to talk about the 'rest of the region' that we don't even see in these tournaments. Only NA / EU mid-tier teams regularly come to these big international LANs and that's because these LANs are held in the US / EU. The other regions send their best because that's how the format works and how expensive it is to bring 5-6 people over from Asia each tournament. So why don't we judge each region by how well the best of each region do against each other, instead of mid-tier NA / EU teams vs. the best of Korea / China? After all, that's what people do in SC 2 when Random_Code_B_Korean gets taken out by a NA / EU player. They say - who cares till it's MVP and DRG - and nowadays the Kespa top pros? I say - who cares till it's M5 TSM and CLG.eu? When TSM lost, you saw me agreeing that NA sucks. So when IG lost is that not relevant?
Well the best team is just the best team. They don't represent the whole quality of the region.
I think Korea has a pretty high bar of "normal" skill level. But China and Taiwan's top team is pretty good...
Also EU has high bar of "normal" skill level.
I personally think it's going to be Korea vs Russia.
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On October 06 2012 15:23 Craton wrote:
MLG is also notorious for their extremely poor production / organizational quality as a result.
They've also had tournies where they had many games not cast or not aired trying to cram so many in.
This is because mlg is living in the past. Since halo 1 they have done a large player pool in a couple days. At mlg new york 2006 there was 1024 free for alll players. Games were top 4 advance for a while and the entire open bracket wsd done in one day. They hold on to the notion that can still be done with lol but halo games take 20~ minutes our less. I think mlg will never extend there tournament past one weekend because thats what they have been doing for nine years. The weekend only tournaments also are good for much of the fps players since they tend to be younger and get weekends off
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I have to say I'm really impressed by the quality of the event regarding audio and video stream issues, I haven't had any. The sound levels of the casters and crowd are perfect on stream and I haven't had any stuttering of video or audio watching from the UK via Twitch. Really great and impressive work by the behind the scenes crew, especially as it's an outdoors event.
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Still feel bad about TSM losing. Blah, lets hope we get some info about what they are going to do in S3 soon. With all the Rumors of Regi quitting etc... And to make me even sadder, wont be able to watch the games tonight, but hoping for the euro teams to play well. All euro finals would be awesome.
On October 02 2012 21:20 Gahlo wrote:
I guarantee you won't see Diana picked or banned once at Worlds.
Just had to ^^
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United Kingdom876 Posts
people are giving tsm to much shit they practiced hard it's just unfortunate they had to play imo the 2nd best team here
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 06 2012 10:25 Implenia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 10:21 ketchup wrote:
People saying DotA NA is any decent are seriously delusional. They are definitely the weakest region in DotA as well. coL, EG and Quantic did decent at TI2.
Quantic wasn't present at TI2
NA did overall better then EU at TI2, this is true, historically however EU has been stronger then NA though in Dota (1), I give it about a year before we see the rise of (CIS or Euro) teams once again(already seeing the new M5 and Empire doing decently so far) and NA will be the weakest of the 3(or 4 if you count china as a seperate one)regions. In the end the Asians own everyone in Dota except for Na'vi though so it doesn't really matter^^.
NA is mostly console gaming from what I have heard, and most esport platforms are played on the PC except for Arcade fighting games I suppose.
Ontopic, sad to see Dyrus lose but Frost ;3
I mean I can't ever dislike a team that plays Lux and Beep Boop, if it wasn't for Ocelote I think Lux has 100% winrate?
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I hope Riot releases S3 info soon. From what I understand it'll be mostly regional with just the championship at the end as the only clash of regions. There might be an IEM here or there that 1-2 teams from each region will attend but damn.
It's just that I'd really like to see the NA teams improve but I don't see how they possibly can. If it's just TSM/Dig/CLG beating up on other NA teams they're not gonna improve. Even if teams like mMe, Curse, and oRb start challenging the top 3 I don't see how they hope to compete with Asian teams if they never get to play them.
Idk I'd like to see someone like Curse or TSM do what CLG did and stay in Korea for awhile. But I don't see that being possible in S3.
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Sad about TSM. Pulling for M5 all the way now!!!
SOVIET SCIENCE!!
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People need to stop try to get which region is better and whatnot, it's a ridiculous exercice. From what I see, there is 2 european, 1 taiwanese, 1 korean and 1 chinese team still in the run now, so it's all pretty balanced.
The real problem is the Phread/Remington duo. They talk so much I don't hear a thing, it's really getting on my nerves.
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My tongue in cheek comment about the 95% at 70k wasn't so much about the 70k figure (which although possible is unlikely) as it was the 95% figure. There are no degrees right now that give you a 95% chance of finding full-time employment. The jobs aren't there. This is probably the best time to pursue being a pro gamer for a while until the jobs market fixes itself.
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On October 06 2012 18:34 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 16:49 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. I don't know if you're actually trying to troll or you really believe what you write, but I actually remember you being the guy who said that LoL wasn't that big in China compared to DotA, so I'm going to take whatever you say with a massive chunk of salt. You admitted that you don't follow LoL that closely so maybe you actually should be more acquainted with the scenes before you make blanket statements like "China is terrible at LoL" or "China is on equal level with NA in LoL". On one hand, WE definitely played like shit in the IPL Face Offs and the recent OGN, while iG and TPA has played terribly in every OGN online invitational in the last couple months, so you may actually be right. On the other hand, it's stupid and obnoxious to make such a blanket statement before WE has even played a match at the World Championships, and when TPA is still going strong. In any case, iG beat CLG.na and SK (i.e. China > NA and China>EU by your logic) before losing to M5. If a rational thinker were to make such a blanket statement, he or she must surely have to wait until all the Chinese teams have been eliminated (whereas, one can already conclude NA is below the rest since all three NA teams were beaten convincingly). I call M5 and CLG.eu outliers because they are far, far above the rest of EU. If you follow the LoL scene, you could pretty much rank NA/EU like this: M5 >= CLG.eu > TSM> rest of NA > rest of EU. The world ranking would be something like this: Frost = Blaze >= M5 >= CLG.eu >= TPA >= WE >= Korea = TSM (> rest of China IMO) > rest of NA > rest of EU So, logically do you take M5 and CLG.eu as your EU basis of comparison or a balance with the rest of EU? LoL wasn't that big in China compared to Dota last I checked. I don't know how it measures up now, but there were 10 million active Dota players in China when I said it. Besides that, you're correct that it's too early to say that China <= NA but I never made that statement. I just said that NA and China were at the lower end of the competitive spectrum from the other regions - ie Europe and Korea. As for your ranking, is this a LoL thing? To put teams within a region outside of that region?
It bothers me so much when people keep putting up that number as fact without questioning it at all.
In any event, comparing regions is very difficult, but there are clear favorites (Korea/M5/CLG/TPA etc.) There are teams that are an entirely different level when compared to others. But I think it isn't a smart idea to use that fact to compare regions.
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On October 06 2012 19:55 Gaslo wrote:Still feel bad about TSM losing. Blah, lets hope we get some info about what they are going to do in S3 soon. With all the Rumors of Regi quitting etc... And to make me even sadder, wont be able to watch the games tonight, but hoping for the euro teams to play well. All euro finals would be awesome. Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 21:20 Gahlo wrote:
I guarantee you won't see Diana picked or banned once at Worlds.
Just had to ^^
scarra has picked diana already
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On October 06 2012 22:08 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 18:34 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 16:49 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. I don't know if you're actually trying to troll or you really believe what you write, but I actually remember you being the guy who said that LoL wasn't that big in China compared to DotA, so I'm going to take whatever you say with a massive chunk of salt. You admitted that you don't follow LoL that closely so maybe you actually should be more acquainted with the scenes before you make blanket statements like "China is terrible at LoL" or "China is on equal level with NA in LoL". On one hand, WE definitely played like shit in the IPL Face Offs and the recent OGN, while iG and TPA has played terribly in every OGN online invitational in the last couple months, so you may actually be right. On the other hand, it's stupid and obnoxious to make such a blanket statement before WE has even played a match at the World Championships, and when TPA is still going strong. In any case, iG beat CLG.na and SK (i.e. China > NA and China>EU by your logic) before losing to M5. If a rational thinker were to make such a blanket statement, he or she must surely have to wait until all the Chinese teams have been eliminated (whereas, one can already conclude NA is below the rest since all three NA teams were beaten convincingly). I call M5 and CLG.eu outliers because they are far, far above the rest of EU. If you follow the LoL scene, you could pretty much rank NA/EU like this: M5 >= CLG.eu > TSM> rest of NA > rest of EU. The world ranking would be something like this: Frost = Blaze >= M5 >= CLG.eu >= TPA >= WE >= Korea = TSM (> rest of China IMO) > rest of NA > rest of EU So, logically do you take M5 and CLG.eu as your EU basis of comparison or a balance with the rest of EU? LoL wasn't that big in China compared to Dota last I checked. I don't know how it measures up now, but there were 10 million active Dota players in China when I said it. Besides that, you're correct that it's too early to say that China <= NA but I never made that statement. I just said that NA and China were at the lower end of the competitive spectrum from the other regions - ie Europe and Korea. As for your ranking, is this a LoL thing? To put teams within a region outside of that region? It bothers me so much when people keep putting up that number as fact without questioning it at all. In any event, comparing regions is very difficult, but there are clear favorites (Korea/M5/CLG/TPA etc.) There are teams that are an entirely different level when compared to others. But I think it isn't a smart idea to use that fact to compare regions.
It's 10 million chinese. That's nothing in a country with 1.4 billion people. That would be the equivalent of having 3-4~ million americans play LOL, which is not all that unreasonable.
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On October 06 2012 22:11 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 19:55 Gaslo wrote:Still feel bad about TSM losing. Blah, lets hope we get some info about what they are going to do in S3 soon. With all the Rumors of Regi quitting etc... And to make me even sadder, wont be able to watch the games tonight, but hoping for the euro teams to play well. All euro finals would be awesome. On October 02 2012 21:20 Gahlo wrote:
I guarantee you won't see Diana picked or banned once at Worlds.
Just had to ^^ scarra has picked diana already
Voyboy did as well.
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When does the games start today ? (CET)
Edit: Nvm im dumb
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On October 06 2012 21:38 Jaksiel wrote:
My tongue in cheek comment about the 95% at 70k wasn't so much about the 70k figure (which although possible is unlikely) as it was the 95% figure. There are no degrees right now that give you a 95% chance of finding full-time employment. The jobs aren't there. This is probably the best time to pursue being a pro gamer for a while until the jobs market fixes itself.
I would suggest being an engineer :p
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England2653 Posts
Just watched M5 vs iG and TPA vs Najin Sword.
Daaamn, TPA vs Najin was amazing. Game 2 was so good and the teams themselves are real likeable. Excited, passionate and real confident. They've definitely made fans over this weekend and the crowd love them. I liked these games because (at least according to me) they weren't throws. They were just one team eking ahead through perfect initiation and so on. The team fights were actually proper fights rather than a 5 for 1 stomp. Amazing games.
So excited for tonight holy fuck.
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EPT
