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On July 06 2012 00:00 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 23:08 JingleHell wrote: I do wish we could stop looking at Lazer's first post as "contradictory". Actually, for that matter, I wish we would leave alone all the initial burst of posting, the entire purpose is to get people talking, which was accomplished. Frankly, I don't think Lazer's first post felt scummy, because while it was only very basic, it was an effort to do the same thing I accomplished by bringing up sex toys. I've just discovered that something meaningless works better.
Instead of cluttering things up, I'll just say that Bass and Lazer's analysis on TMG sounds good, and I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say. This is kind of interesting You defend Lazer and try to downplay the importance of first posts (despite Lazer calling his own post bad). Absolutely not. If his post caught traction, we would waste lots of time. Your post did catch traction, but we hardly wasted any significant amount of time. Something meaningless works better than what he did because we know it's not serious. You know it, i know it, he knows it, but he chose to choose something "significant." TMG looks rather shit, but if his english actually sucks, then we have a serious problem. Lurkers speak up now. I will lynch you if Lazer is not a serious contender.
How is that a defense? It's my own read on it. I think it was a relatively useless post, which I've never hidden, but I don't see trouble in motive, just implementation. Same thing you're saying, less effort to saying it.
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So in the middle of the discussion between Lazer & Hapa vs Hopeless & Release, which was about whether Lazer is suspicious or not, YourHarry and JingleHell, both of who were engaged in a pretty heated discussion which lead to the first votes of the game and day, suddenly make amends is simply two posts.
The player Release has made 6 posts (not counting the edit) whereas only two are of value, or should I say gives to impression of being of value. In his first post he accuses Lazer of what he himself (or she/herself) is doing, creating a post full of fluff.
Why on earth did you even post that scenario stuff about a VT fake-claiming a DT or blue? There was absolutely no indication that anyone had even planned on that (especially considering you had the first post). If anything, you have just shown people something they can do (to the detriment of the town). And why go through the casework? It's just fluff and you know it. This is very much a post looking like a contribution, while being a non-contribution, or even an anti-contribution.
While it is correct there was no indication that someone would fakeclaim, nor was there an indication that someone wouldn't. You simply take his post and blow it out of proportion, even claiming it is bringing the town a step backwards. The bolded part here is essential further down in my post, keep it on mind.
After this statement Release proceeds to vote against Lazermonkey and then say this
Yourharry, you should do more than OMGUS. You are definitely rivaling, for scumminess, against lazer.
Is it not odd that someone writes a fairly long post saying one person is scummy, even voting for said person, and then end it with an uncalled for accusation another person without posting any basis for this accusation.
Now let's move on to the next post.
Why are you promoting your first post as a discussion starter? It isn't. It is an attempt to brainwash unsuspecting townies and get us talking about useless things. I commend him for shutting your down your post with this authority.
Here we bring the accusations up a notch, even claiming the post to be an attempt of brainwashing and discussing useless things. So what is useless things? Let's look a little further down in Release's second post:
In terms of day1, i don't think setting a tone on lynching lurkers is necessarily a bad thing. should we decide on lynching a lurker, the lurkers will feel a need to speak up in order to avoid getting the lynch. In other words, saying "let's lynch lurkers" promotes discussion. And "to make a point" states exactly that. "speak up or die."
You say he is promoting useless discussion and trying to bring the town backwards (the bolded part) yet you so easily walk on this path. You have even stated in your second post what you see as useful discussion. Yet you have not discussed what you find useful, instead you discuss quite the opposite. All you have done so far is discuss whether or not the first post is anti-contributing. You have done this in a way which directly contradicts your supposed intentions. In other words; By discussing if someone is anti-contributing you are in fact anti-contributing yourself.
FoS Release
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While I was writing my reply Release posted two new posts, none of which falsifies the content of my post.
So it should be "8 posts whereas only two are of value..."
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Hi sorry for being late, was busy with work. I still need to read and think more. My instinct will be to fire away at a few people but knowing them from previous games I have to be more patient.
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So basically you guys are acusing me based on my heplessness and the lack of new content in my post... Ok, its my very first game here, and i only played mafia twice on a totally different community and on a different language, so its a litle bit natural to me to be a litle bit "scared"
You may say its scummy atitude, all that i can say to defend myself is that it was a newbie atitude...
On July 05 2012 22:18 BassInSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 10:49 TMG26 wrote: Even if it is Plurality Lynch, there's still 40 hours left
And its again funny to see that Hopeless jumped on your defence... After you had already voted harry after harry voted hopeless
In my mind, you and harry are the prime suspects..but only a few hours have passed, and i dont want to jump into bad conclusions I don't quite understand. So you think that hopeless and jingle are mafia because hopeless defended jingle, but jingle and harry are actually your prime suspects? I'd just like this point clarified.
well i wasnt very clear it seems..
Lets see what happenned before that post:
>Harry voted Hopeless >jingle isnta voted Harry for that vote >Harry voted Jingle >Hopeless returns and gives some suport to Jingle
i believe that the part that confused you was saying that harry and jingle were the prime ones, not jingle and hopeless. Well, what i was trying to say was that harry and jingle were the ones with bigger chance to be scum due to OMGUS, of course that if jingle is revealed scum Hopeless chances of being scum increases
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It seem people want me to take a stance, fine!
Reading the new posts it to me that Release is trying to force a lynch on Lazer, and i see no motive for that
Release main acusation is that Lazer first post is really bad, sure, it wasnt good, he wrote so much, and almost no decent content... But your main acusation is that Lazer's first post if it had really started a discussion on the subject as he intended to do we would loose tremendous amount of time discussing meangless stuff, and I ask you, how could we loose that much time discussing why VT shouldnt fake claim? Its a little obious what lazer said, so it wouldnt wast us as much time as you want us to believe
If you actually think the discussion about sex toys is designed to shit up the thread, i don't know what to say. It's maybe a page long, it shut down your attempt (in an awkward fashion), and he hasn't tried to rehash it once it died off
I dont see the point of the sex toys discussion not being rehashed, Lazer did not tried to rehash what he pointed out in the first post, and it seems like you are saying that the sex toys discussion was positive
Basically, i agree that Lazeer first post was bad, but it wasnt the work of the scum Devil that you want us to believe, it seems to me that you are trying really hard to see Lazer lynched at all costs when there werent another topic going on that you didnt pay atition
FoS Release
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On July 05 2012 23:39 Release wrote: discalimer: i've only read up to this point:
A "discussion-starter" that is used to talk about useless information/ideas can be very detrimental to the town. If that discussion starter actually caught some serious traction, we may have ended up spending ~24 hours talking about VTs claiming as blues and blues claiming, and whatnot.
If you actually think the discussion about sex toys is designed to shit up the thread, i don't know what to say. It's maybe a page long, it shut down your attempt (in an awkward fashion), and he hasn't tried to rehash it once it died off I really don't see how a post like that can be dangerous to town. Of the 4 latest Newbie Mini Mafia, 2 of them had VT fakeclaiming DT. A bad trend to say the least. I just wanted to say that this is ultra bad town play. Also look at the post. I'm basically saying''Don't fakeclaim as Vanilla, if you don't agree with me let me know''. The reason that part is so long is because I wanted to explain WHY it's such a bad idea to do it. I think this is justifiable since we are playing in a newbie game.
I can only speculate what motives there are behind the sex toy discussion. But that's not the point at all. We would gain far more by talking policy/blues than by talking about sex toys, no? Obviously, we want to scum hunt but this is hard to do when noone has even posted anything.
On July 05 2012 23:39 Release wrote:My stance on jingle? The first part was a joke about you.
The second one was a hypothetical scenario.
The third one expresses my view. And you forgot to include the part where i said he looks better than you. Nope, I didn't forgot it. Yes he looks better than me but you also said I were your n1 scum read so that makes him anywhere from your n2 scumread to most likely townie(although I would guess that's not what you think of him judging by your posts so far). This is a quite wide range imo.
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On July 05 2012 19:21 Hapahauli wrote:Un-FOS JingleHellAs I've taken some time to cool down a bit, I'm growing worried that this thread is going to turn into a giant post-bang between the four most active/reckless players on the thread so far (YourHarry, JingleHell, Release, LazerMonkey, and Me). Such a situation would be extremely harmful to the town and would let the Mafia sit in the shadows while we war over one another. Perhaps we can turn our attention to two suspicious posts by some lurkers in an effort to get them to speak up: TMG26His first post is rife with a desire to look helpless, lots of fluff, and indecision (my commentary is bolded). + Show Spoiler [First Post] +On July 05 2012 08:38 TMG26 wrote: It's a 13 player game, and only 3 mobsters, so there is still a room for a litle mistake on day1 Megafluff, and downplaying the importance of day 1 reads
With a random vote on day 1 the probability of hitting scum is low, but missing wont be that dangerous, the question that i want to make is: With this low ratio of scum, does the nolynch becomes more or less viable?
I'm still a newbie in mafia games, thats one of the reasons of asking this questing trying to look helpless
And sorry about my bad english, i'm not a native speaker more helplessness
About what being happening here.. Lazer was not clear on what he said, Hopeless stated that, and yourHarry immidiatly voted Hopeless for that
So, in my opinion if we want to catch the scum we have to confront them, so i Hopeless did the right thing...But so did yourHarry, what i find funny was JingleHell jumping in to declare FoS on yourHarry
In my opinion Hopeless and yourHarry did almost same same thing Note the language - "in my opinion" as opposed to saying it outright. Overly diplomatic and indecisive
My main suspects right now fall to yourHarry and JingleHell, because your acusations seammed more like a counter acusation after a "scum teammate" being acused
But is all still too light, a lot of people still havent spoken Despite stating two suspects, immediately reverts to indecision When JingleHell replies to TMG26's passive accusation, TMG is apologetic, passive, and does not address the issue (commentary bolded again). + Show Spoiler [Response to JingleHell's Defense] +On July 05 2012 08:47 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 08:41 JingleHell wrote: Wait, so my actual reasoning is supposed to be an OMGUS, and Harry's suggestion that 23% is gambling odds is only equally suspicious as my case?
When my case was based purely off of suspicious behavior, and my defense was based on the lack of substance, which was the grounds for my accusation? Not only does that not make any logical sense, it also feels like exactly what you just accused me of doing. Sorry, dont know what OMGUS is, i will search An apology... says he will search instead of just searching for the damn thing. Fluff.About the 23% odds, i didnt read that..... because of the time that it took me to type, i'll will make sure to check new replies before i post something that took a litle bit of time to type Does not address JingleHell and posts irrelevant information - "I'll make sure to read before I post..." More fluff/half-hearted accusations. + Show Spoiler [Response to Harry] +On July 05 2012 09:02 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 08:53 YourHarry wrote:
A. He thinks I am trying to mislynch. (False) B. I am not participating in case based on substantial evidence (True, but not my fault probably) Thanks for the welcome A: We cant know for sure what you are trying to do, a statment like "i'm not trying to mislynch" is worth notting... scum wont say they are trying to mislynch B: Well, there no eveindence that he wanted to start a bandwagon, there was only a acusation of lazer's contradiction, BUT you told us what you tought about it... thats your opinion, so its recorded nowWhat?! What's even the point of that.What i believe he condemns you most is for the "early" vote... And then you came with the odds not being bad..................... Further indecision Makes another overly diplomatic/indecisive/fluff post that points suspicions to JingleHell and Harry + Show Spoiler [Another Diplomatic/Accusatory Post] +On July 05 2012 10:49 TMG26 wrote: Even if it is Plurality Lynch, there's still 40 hours left
And its again funny to see that Hopeless jumped on your defence... After you had already voted harry after harry voted hopeless
In my mind, you and harry are the prime suspects..but only a few hours have passed, and i dont want to jump into bad conclusions MackinI have less of a case on Mackin, but his first post is very very suspicious. Inaccurate/Bandwagon post on LazerMonkey. + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 07:06 Mackin wrote: Hey guys, just putting it out there Lazer is already on my FoS list and we're only just beginning, long contradictory post with almost too much effort put in. Underlined part is simply not true. The post only has one contradiction, and it isn't very long. Criticizing someone for putting "almost too much effort" into posting is a huge red flag. This sounds like someone who saw someone's criticism of a lone contradiction and immediately jumped on the bandwagon without any analysis. Very anti-town mentality.
His next few posts are comprised of one-liners and fluff: + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 07:17 Mackin wrote: HellJingle, that's an interesting name... On July 05 2012 07:28 Mackin wrote:
On July 05 2012 07:22 Hopeless1der wrote: Mackin give the poor guy a chance, he's just a little excited I think. I just wanted to give him a heads up so he checks his posts more carefully, that way we can narrow down our scum lists earlier rather than later.
Fair enough point, but I just want to stir up some conversation to get people talking. Ain't that what Mafia's all about? [B]On July 05 2012 07:56 Mackin wrote: @Harry We have a clever one here methinks.
I'm going to put aside the babble between the loudest players who are having a stupid disagreement about getting people to talk vs how it's useless fluff.
TMG is clearly new, not a native speaker and deserves some BOTD.
My FOS is on Mackin for trying to light up fires and disappearing as town burns. His thoughtless posting reminds me so much of mafia behavior.
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Let's focus on lurkers like Mackin ATM. I know I might qualify as one but I have nothing to add to the lazer/hapa vs hopeless/release/jingle babbling
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Regarding the FOS's on Release (by TMG26 and Evulrabbitz)
Release's aggressive/FingerPointing play isn't grounds for suspicion; he is incredibly aggressive in his other games as townie. www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345447&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII - Vigilante) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XVI - Townie) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XIV - Townie)
In these games, he always picks an early target or two (for marginal, sometimes joke reasons) and relentlessly pressures them. Sometimes, this pressure goes on for far too long, but its done with good intentions. I don't wish to go and dissect all his past games, but I suggest you take a look through his past to get a feel for his town play.
However, I would like to point out that Release's hard stance on LazerMonkey's first post is unusual given a previous mafia game they've played together. In Newbie Mini Mafia XVI, LazerMonkey makes a similar introductory post (clicky!) to the one he made in this thread. Release raises no objections with it in their past game, but he makes it a point to raise an objection on it in this game. Needless to say, LazerMonkey turned up town-alligned in the previous game.
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TMG your not convincing me.
First off, your english is good. I haven't had any problems with reading it so far and I don't really care about typos either. Hell, my english suck as well : ).
For me, I don't really care who you suspect out of Jingle, Harry and Hope as long as you have a good reason for it. What DID confuse at least me and probebly some others is how you never took a stance on any of them. You said they made the right choice but still were scummy because of that. And in the end you said you didn't want to take a stance before there were more posts. This is scummy.
The part about Release is meh. You don't really post much original thoughts. Most of it feels like a copy of Evuls earlier post. You only bring up one new point which is the one about sex toy. Also, Release is under FoS from a couple of players atm, so it isn't really a ground breaking move from you either.
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On July 06 2012 02:37 JieXian wrote: Let's focus on lurkers like Mackin ATM. I know I might qualify as one but I have nothing to add to the lazer/hapa vs hopeless/release/jingle babbling How can we really focus on Mackin atm? He has basically posted nothing atm. The only post which isn't useless is his first which I think is a bit suspicious. But other than that we have nothing to go on. He will post more and we will be able to judge his play. If he doesn't he will get modkilled/replaced anyway. Focus on what's happening in the thread rather than focusing on what's not there.
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On July 06 2012 00:00 Release wrote:This is kind of interesting
You defend Lazer and try to downplay the importance of first posts (despite Lazer calling his own post bad). Where did I say that my own post was bad? o.O
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On July 05 2012 06:39 Lazermonkey wrote: Lurkers!: There are two types of lurkers. The ones who doesn't post anything and the sneaky ones, who posts ALOT but nothing of value. The first category could either be bad town play or scum play. But the second category is almost exclusivly scum play. If you are a townie, speak your mind, don't make a super duper long post when you could've said it on just a few lines. Keep it simple. With that being said, post!
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He's the third type. Very little and nothing of value but random accusations.
Everyone needs to chill and look elsewhere.
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On July 06 2012 01:02 TMG26 wrote: So basically you guys are acusing me based on my heplessness and the lack of new content in my post... Ok, its my very first game here, and i only played mafia twice on a totally different community and on a different language, so its a litle bit natural to me to be a litle bit "scared"
You may say its scummy atitude, all that i can say to defend myself is that it was a newbie atitude...
The underlined part is very important. While this is TMG's first game in English, this is not his first game. He should know the difference between good and bad townie behavior, which makes his wishy-washy attitude very suspicious.
Also, the attacks on TMG aren't only for his indecision. BassinSpace brings up some anti-townie behavior in TMG's posts that needs explanation: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066¤tpage=9#172
On July 06 2012 01:02 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 22:18 BassInSpace wrote:On July 05 2012 10:49 TMG26 wrote: Even if it is Plurality Lynch, there's still 40 hours left
And its again funny to see that Hopeless jumped on your defence... After you had already voted harry after harry voted hopeless
In my mind, you and harry are the prime suspects..but only a few hours have passed, and i dont want to jump into bad conclusions I don't quite understand. So you think that hopeless and jingle are mafia because hopeless defended jingle, but jingle and harry are actually your prime suspects? I'd just like this point clarified. well i wasnt very clear it seems.. Lets see what happenned before that post: >Harry voted Hopeless >jingle isnta voted Harry for that vote >Harry voted Jingle >Hopeless returns and gives some suport to Jingle i believe that the part that confused you was saying that harry and jingle were the prime ones, not jingle and hopeless. Well, what i was trying to say was that harry and jingle were the ones with bigger chance to be scum due to OMGUS, of course that if jingle is revealed scum Hopeless chances of being scum increases
I don't care for the argument logic, but it's D1 and anything goes. This part looks fine, but his accusation of Release is very suspicious.
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On July 06 2012 01:02 TMG26 wrote:It seem people want me to take a stance, fine! Only taking a stance because other people want you to? Anti-town mentality.Reading the new posts it to me that Release is trying to force a lynch on Lazer, and i see no motive for that Good good, pointing the finger...Release main acusation is that Lazer first post is really bad, sure, it wasnt good, he wrote so much, and almost no decent content... Immediately agrees with Release's argument about Lazer... what?But your main acusation is that Lazer's first post if it had really started a discussion on the subject as he intended to do we would loose tremendous amount of time discussing meangless stuff, and I ask you, how could we loose that much time discussing why VT shouldnt fake claim? Its a little obious what lazer said, so it wouldnt wast us as much time as you want us to believe Mostly summary of previous discussion. Also spends more time defending Lazer than actually attacking ReleaseShow nested quote + If you actually think the discussion about sex toys is designed to shit up the thread, i don't know what to say. It's maybe a page long, it shut down your attempt (in an awkward fashion), and he hasn't tried to rehash it once it died off
I dont see the point of the sex toys discussion not being rehashed, Lazer did not tried to rehash what he pointed out in the first post, and it seems like you are saying that the sex toys discussion was positive This is not a very damning quote by Release at all.Basically, i agree that Lazeer first post was bad, but it wasnt the work of the scum Devil that you want us to believe, it seems to me that you are trying really hard to see Lazer lynched at all costs when there werent another topic going on that you didnt pay atition Agrees with Release AGAIN. Then takes a stance on Release while providing nothing of substance to verify it (if your main point is that Release is starting a witch hunt, there are many better quotes/evidence to support his caseFoS Release
His entire case on Release a summary of previous analysis. In addition, his accusation is wishy-washy beyond the point that language-barriers can account for. The way he approaches LazerMonkey's first post within his argument is incredibly suspicious.
@ TMG, I hope you can address these concerns of mine. In addition, I want to hear your thoughts on BassinSpace's post on your "anti-town" behavior (clicky!).
FOS on TMG26
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goign to sleep soon. Had to add that that's typical scum play. It reminds me a lot of what a scum did (remember bio, Jingle?)and I assume he's going to get verbal soon.
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and release for that matter
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So while catching up, it looks like Release isn't making any friends. YourHarry has also disappeared after resolving his shouting match with Jingle. He's said he'll re-read for scum vibes and hasn't been heard from since.
On July 06 2012 02:37 JieXian wrote: Let's focus on lurkers like Mackin ATM. I know I might qualify as one but I have nothing to add to the lazer/hapa vs hopeless/release/jingle babbling
Mackin on the other hand disappeared about the same time as Rabbitz: just before what I consider the 'real discussion' started. A very suspicious time to start lurking because they could very easily have been watching and just let the town shred itself so I'll be watching them both going forward for avoiding discussions. Not that they're both necessarily scum, but its definitely looks scummy to me.
Rabbitz came back and had a read on Release that looks pretty good, but there are a couple other fingers pointed at Release concern me: + Show Spoiler +On July 06 2012 02:48 Hapahauli wrote:Regarding the FOS's on Release (by TMG26 and Evulrabbitz) Release's aggressive/FingerPointing play isn't grounds for suspicion; he is incredibly aggressive in his other games as townie. www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345447&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII - Vigilante) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XVI - Townie) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XIV - Townie) In these games, he always picks an early target or two (for marginal, sometimes joke reasons) and relentlessly pressures them. Sometimes, this pressure goes on for far too long, but its done with good intentions. I don't wish to go and dissect all his past games, but I suggest you take a look through his past to get a feel for his town play. However, I would like to point out that Release's hard stance on LazerMonkey's first post is unusual given a previous mafia game they've played together. In Newbie Mini Mafia XVI, LazerMonkey makes a similar introductory post (clicky!) to the one he made in this thread. Release raises no objections with it in their past game, but he makes it a point to raise an objection on it in this game. Needless to say, LazerMonkey turned up town-alligned in the previous game. Hapahauli is doing a big backslide from his previous case on Release, after seeing + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 14:59 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 13:46 Hapahauli wrote:On July 05 2012 13:23 Khorrus wrote: Sorry I'm a bit late. I notice I seem to have already missed sex toys and what looks to be the beginning of some mini bandwagons.
While I can't quite determine what's going on with the YourHarry, Hopeless Situaation, Lazermonkey's post seems off many words to flip flop and not say much of value. You've just posted a list of four names while saying nothing of value yourself. Rather scummy behavior. That's just grasping at straws, which is one of the reasons Lazer is my top priority lynch. And as far as i can tell, he hasn't even had a thorough reading of the thread yet. way too over-eager to point out every little flaw.
and just jumps all over it, building a huge case:+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 15:40 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 14:59 Release wrote:On July 05 2012 13:46 Hapahauli wrote:On July 05 2012 13:23 Khorrus wrote: Sorry I'm a bit late. I notice I seem to have already missed sex toys and what looks to be the beginning of some mini bandwagons.
While I can't quite determine what's going on with the YourHarry, Hopeless Situaation, Lazermonkey's post seems off many words to flip flop and not say much of value. You've just posted a list of four names while saying nothing of value yourself. Rather scummy behavior. That's just grasping at straws, which is one of the reasons Lazer is my top priority lynch. And as far as i can tell, he hasn't even had a thorough reading of the thread yet. way too over-eager to point out every little flaw. Exactly what has Lazer done to be a "top-priority lynch?" According to your filter, you have two posts detailing cases against Lazer. The first is an analysis of his first post: Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 08:58 Release wrote:I think YourHarry is Grush's new alias. On July 05 2012 06:39 Lazermonkey wrote: YOYO GUYS. I AM Vanilla Townie
On a more serious note, we want this ship rollin' as fast as possible. Discussing policy is not scumhunting but it does at least help us get the discussion going. First off, something we want to avoid as town is Vanillas claiming blue roles. In both my last game and Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII there were Vanillas who claimed blue roles(DTs). Both times town ended in an bad spot (although not as bad as it could've been due to luck). But this should still be avoided at all costs as it can cause massive damage to town. Why? Well let's say a vanilla townie claims DT, and then the real DT claims because the vanilla is lying. As it doesn't make sense for vanillas to claim blue roles, we must assume that one of theese players is scum and the other one is the real DT.Two following scenarios can occur here 1). The townie gets lynched. which means that the other person is probebly the real DT, this must however not be true. 2). The DT gets lynched, which means that the vanilla townie will 100% get lynched the next day. While 2 is far worse than 1 they are still both very bad for town. There really isn't a situation you want to fakeclaim as a townie. If you don't agree with this please let me know. If noone disagrees I will assume that no townie is ever fake claiming a blue role. Obviously there are situations where you might want to claim as blue.
I will also copy a part of my first post from my last game(where I was DT) since I am lazy.
Regarding lynches: I really really dislike nolynching for three reasons. 1. because the information that we are able to get out of it is very limited. Yes, we avoid a potential misslynch but on the other hand scum will score a more or less a free-kill during night. Essentially, we are back on D1 but this time we are in a 6-2 instead of a 7-2. 2. If we agree to nolynch then what is there to discuss? It's like asking for people to lurk even more. 3. With no vigilante in the game the only way we can win is to lynch scum. Kinda obvious but still. We require 5+ votes in order to get a lynch done. With that in mind I hope that people are willing to vote for someone who isn't their top 1 scum. Obviously, if you REALLY don't think there is any chance that the person that is about to be lynched can be scum, then sure, don't vote him. But if it seems like your target hardly gets any votes and your second highest scumread is at 4 votes with 30 minutes untill deadline, then I think you should swap your vote onto him.
Lurkers!: There are two types of lurkers. The ones who doesn't post anything and the sneaky ones, who posts ALOT but nothing of value. The first category could either be bad town play or scum play. But the second category is almost exclusivly scum play. If you are a townie, speak your mind, don't make a super duper long post when you could've said it on just a few lines. Keep it simple. With that being said, post!
Ignoring the copy-pasted policy stuff for now, Why on earth did you even post that scenario stuff about a VT fake-claiming a DT or blue? There was absolutely no indication that anyone had even planned on that (especially considering you had the first post). If anything, you have just shown people something they can do (to the detriment of the town). And why go through the casework? It's just fluff and you know it. This is very much a post looking like a contribution, while being a non-contribution, or even an anti-contribution. Im pretty sure, again, that no one was even remotely close to voting in a way to force a nolynch. I love the bolded line; you could have kept this post simple and concise. But you decided to make it "super-duper long." ##vote: LazermonkeyYourharry, you should do more than OMGUS. You are definitely rivaling, for scumminess, against lazer. Fos: yourharry Fos: lazermonkey It's worth saying that Lazer's first post was made 12 minutes after the game started. I'm not sure when the mafia separate forum-thingy goes online (at the start of the game or when the role PM's are sent out?,) but his message seems innocent and hardly "an attempt to brainwash unsuspecting townies" - as you call it in a later post. Him warning about townie fake-claiming is a legitimate concern, as it led to the downfall of the town in one of his previous games. While this may seem common-knowledge to the both of us, it is clearly not obvious to some players, and thus is worth mentioning. While I agree his post is "fluffy," it does not seem like an attempt to "brainwash" townsfolk, and his actions can be seen as having a pro-town mentality. This is hardly FOS material. Your second case against Lazer is a response to his case about JingleHell. Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:On July 05 2012 09:54 Lazermonkey wrote:I'm getting suspicious of Jingle. On July 05 2012 06:43 JingleHell wrote: So, since Lazer already opened with the pre-requisite long-winded "Please don't lynch me" post, I'd feel silly making a similar one, so instead, I'm going to open by asking Evulrabbitz why his name references a sex toy. After that question, of course, it suddenly feels awkward, but unless he can answer it well, FoS Evulrabbitz 1st post. Instead of commenting on my post he starts to ridicule it, effectivly killing discussion about it. Instead he is the first one to start shit up the thread with sex-toy w/e. Also, instead of posting his own reads he says I'd feel silly making a similar one which doesn't make any sense at all. I'd much rather have a post about your thought's on scum hunting rather than sex toys. At least when we are playing mafia... The next couple of posts he is effectivly fills half the thread with his talk about Evul being a perv and what not. On July 05 2012 07:56 JingleHell wrote: Well, Hopeless, since you're at least talking, I don't think you're scum yet. However, if day1 lurkers start causing trouble, I'm all for just throwing the dice and lynching one just to make a clear point.
Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things.
Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away. If you would write this as a first time player I could be somewhat cool with it. But you are not. We want to lynch scum, not lurkers. And we absolutly don't want to roll the dice. And I really don't see how you are very suspicious about the vote. There were ~50 hours untill deadline when he threw the vote. How is this even close to start a bandwagon? Like wtf? On July 05 2012 08:05 JingleHell wrote: EBWOP: And Harry, don't try to turn my logic around on me, my vote was based on your suspicious vote.
Your quote on Hopeless wasn't what I'd call a real reason to vote for someone who's at least being active, and not particularly suspicious.
Voting for him that way makes you look scummy, considering you've said nothing of real substance yet. But at this point you only had one minor post of substance as well. On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote: I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.
In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. I don't get this post. I may be missunderstanding this but if there is no substance to the case then why would that even be considered a case? And why on earth would someone ever get lynched by such a ''case'' On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote: I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.
In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. Once again, there is no threat of a bandwagon at all. Why do you keep saying that? What I find maybe most intresting is how you start the game by shitting up the thread and literally don't post a single usefull thing. When the first vote get thrown tho, You go ''WTF DUDE, VOTING IZ NOT COOL''. No, I agree that the reasoning behind the vote to begin with was verrrry vauge but I don't really see why you get so upset about it ESPICIALLY since it's not even on you. ##Vote JingleHell are you outing Jingle as your scumbuddy? or maybe trying to drag him down with you? YOU ARE SO CONFUSING. OMGUS. Why are you promoting your first post as a discussion starter? It isn't. It is an attempt to brainwash unsuspecting townies and get us talking about useless things. I commend him for shutting your down your post with this authority. If you are actually using the discussion of sex toys as a reason to call him scum, you really are just grasping at straws for lack of any real substance. In terms of day1, i don't think setting a tone on lynching lurkers is necessarily a bad thing. should we decide on lynching a lurker, the lurkers will feel a need to speak up in order to avoid getting the lynch. In other words, saying "let's lynch lurkers" promotes discussion. And "to make a point" states exactly that. "speak up or die." Jingle should probably reply to the next part, but as far as i can see, it goes - OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS ##vote -##vote x 10 - no discussion, the guy who got OMGUS'd has nothing to attack/defend. Checkmate. Turns out, he was VT o.O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ That being said, Jingle has only made very light commitments and commented on very obvious/easy things. Lazer, you still look worse. What ever his stance may be, he clearly took the time to read through JingleHell's post. He's also taking a firm stance against a player, and making a clear attempt at analysis (even if it is only day 1). You spend half your post talking about his first post, then address one of his points... then the rest I don't even understand. You have very strong feelings about Lazer, care to solidify your case for him to be a "top priority lynch?"
He pushed him for a bit, and then finally let up once everyone else had suspicions on Release. His change of stance is well timed to distance himself from his provoking, but he still leaves himself an open avenue to target Release later on based on his meta from a game where Lazer played the same but got a different response from Release than this game..
The other thing that I found scummy about him was his reason for suspecting Jingle in this case:
On July 05 2012 11:37 Hapahauli wrote: --SNIP-- In conclusion, FOS on JingleHell. His actions regarding D1 voting are contradictory, and he's taken a very suspicious stance on anti-bandwagnoning so early into day 1.
I don't get how being anti-bandwagon can be seen as suspicious. Bandwagoning is terrible and I completely agree with Jingle's stance on it, seeing as I was the victim of a D1 mislynch in XVIII. Scum don't have to push for a majority vote this game, they can let us rile ourselves up and can vote with little risk of getting themselves caught in the mislynch votecount.
FoS: Hapahauli
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On July 06 2012 03:59 Hopeless1der wrote:... Rabbitz came back and had a read on Release that looks pretty good, but there are a couple other fingers pointed at Release concern me: + Show Spoiler +On July 06 2012 02:48 Hapahauli wrote:Regarding the FOS's on Release (by TMG26 and Evulrabbitz) Release's aggressive/FingerPointing play isn't grounds for suspicion; he is incredibly aggressive in his other games as townie. www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345447&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII - Vigilante) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XVI - Townie) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=117960 (Newbie Mini Mafia XIV - Townie) In these games, he always picks an early target or two (for marginal, sometimes joke reasons) and relentlessly pressures them. Sometimes, this pressure goes on for far too long, but its done with good intentions. I don't wish to go and dissect all his past games, but I suggest you take a look through his past to get a feel for his town play. However, I would like to point out that Release's hard stance on LazerMonkey's first post is unusual given a previous mafia game they've played together. In Newbie Mini Mafia XVI, LazerMonkey makes a similar introductory post (clicky!) to the one he made in this thread. Release raises no objections with it in their past game, but he makes it a point to raise an objection on it in this game. Needless to say, LazerMonkey turned up town-alligned in the previous game. Hapahauli is doing a big backslide from his previous case on Release, after seeing + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 14:59 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 13:46 Hapahauli wrote:On July 05 2012 13:23 Khorrus wrote: Sorry I'm a bit late. I notice I seem to have already missed sex toys and what looks to be the beginning of some mini bandwagons.
While I can't quite determine what's going on with the YourHarry, Hopeless Situaation, Lazermonkey's post seems off many words to flip flop and not say much of value. You've just posted a list of four names while saying nothing of value yourself. Rather scummy behavior. That's just grasping at straws, which is one of the reasons Lazer is my top priority lynch. And as far as i can tell, he hasn't even had a thorough reading of the thread yet. way too over-eager to point out every little flaw. and just jumps all over it, building a huge case: + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 15:40 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 14:59 Release wrote:On July 05 2012 13:46 Hapahauli wrote:On July 05 2012 13:23 Khorrus wrote: Sorry I'm a bit late. I notice I seem to have already missed sex toys and what looks to be the beginning of some mini bandwagons.
While I can't quite determine what's going on with the YourHarry, Hopeless Situaation, Lazermonkey's post seems off many words to flip flop and not say much of value. You've just posted a list of four names while saying nothing of value yourself. Rather scummy behavior. That's just grasping at straws, which is one of the reasons Lazer is my top priority lynch. And as far as i can tell, he hasn't even had a thorough reading of the thread yet. way too over-eager to point out every little flaw. Exactly what has Lazer done to be a "top-priority lynch?" According to your filter, you have two posts detailing cases against Lazer. The first is an analysis of his first post: Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 08:58 Release wrote:I think YourHarry is Grush's new alias. On July 05 2012 06:39 Lazermonkey wrote: YOYO GUYS. I AM Vanilla Townie
On a more serious note, we want this ship rollin' as fast as possible. Discussing policy is not scumhunting but it does at least help us get the discussion going. First off, something we want to avoid as town is Vanillas claiming blue roles. In both my last game and Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII there were Vanillas who claimed blue roles(DTs). Both times town ended in an bad spot (although not as bad as it could've been due to luck). But this should still be avoided at all costs as it can cause massive damage to town. Why? Well let's say a vanilla townie claims DT, and then the real DT claims because the vanilla is lying. As it doesn't make sense for vanillas to claim blue roles, we must assume that one of theese players is scum and the other one is the real DT.Two following scenarios can occur here 1). The townie gets lynched. which means that the other person is probebly the real DT, this must however not be true. 2). The DT gets lynched, which means that the vanilla townie will 100% get lynched the next day. While 2 is far worse than 1 they are still both very bad for town. There really isn't a situation you want to fakeclaim as a townie. If you don't agree with this please let me know. If noone disagrees I will assume that no townie is ever fake claiming a blue role. Obviously there are situations where you might want to claim as blue.
I will also copy a part of my first post from my last game(where I was DT) since I am lazy.
Regarding lynches: I really really dislike nolynching for three reasons. 1. because the information that we are able to get out of it is very limited. Yes, we avoid a potential misslynch but on the other hand scum will score a more or less a free-kill during night. Essentially, we are back on D1 but this time we are in a 6-2 instead of a 7-2. 2. If we agree to nolynch then what is there to discuss? It's like asking for people to lurk even more. 3. With no vigilante in the game the only way we can win is to lynch scum. Kinda obvious but still. We require 5+ votes in order to get a lynch done. With that in mind I hope that people are willing to vote for someone who isn't their top 1 scum. Obviously, if you REALLY don't think there is any chance that the person that is about to be lynched can be scum, then sure, don't vote him. But if it seems like your target hardly gets any votes and your second highest scumread is at 4 votes with 30 minutes untill deadline, then I think you should swap your vote onto him.
Lurkers!: There are two types of lurkers. The ones who doesn't post anything and the sneaky ones, who posts ALOT but nothing of value. The first category could either be bad town play or scum play. But the second category is almost exclusivly scum play. If you are a townie, speak your mind, don't make a super duper long post when you could've said it on just a few lines. Keep it simple. With that being said, post!
Ignoring the copy-pasted policy stuff for now, Why on earth did you even post that scenario stuff about a VT fake-claiming a DT or blue? There was absolutely no indication that anyone had even planned on that (especially considering you had the first post). If anything, you have just shown people something they can do (to the detriment of the town). And why go through the casework? It's just fluff and you know it. This is very much a post looking like a contribution, while being a non-contribution, or even an anti-contribution. Im pretty sure, again, that no one was even remotely close to voting in a way to force a nolynch. I love the bolded line; you could have kept this post simple and concise. But you decided to make it "super-duper long." ##vote: LazermonkeyYourharry, you should do more than OMGUS. You are definitely rivaling, for scumminess, against lazer. Fos: yourharry Fos: lazermonkey It's worth saying that Lazer's first post was made 12 minutes after the game started. I'm not sure when the mafia separate forum-thingy goes online (at the start of the game or when the role PM's are sent out?,) but his message seems innocent and hardly "an attempt to brainwash unsuspecting townies" - as you call it in a later post. Him warning about townie fake-claiming is a legitimate concern, as it led to the downfall of the town in one of his previous games. While this may seem common-knowledge to the both of us, it is clearly not obvious to some players, and thus is worth mentioning. While I agree his post is "fluffy," it does not seem like an attempt to "brainwash" townsfolk, and his actions can be seen as having a pro-town mentality. This is hardly FOS material. Your second case against Lazer is a response to his case about JingleHell. Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:On July 05 2012 09:54 Lazermonkey wrote:I'm getting suspicious of Jingle. On July 05 2012 06:43 JingleHell wrote: So, since Lazer already opened with the pre-requisite long-winded "Please don't lynch me" post, I'd feel silly making a similar one, so instead, I'm going to open by asking Evulrabbitz why his name references a sex toy. After that question, of course, it suddenly feels awkward, but unless he can answer it well, FoS Evulrabbitz 1st post. Instead of commenting on my post he starts to ridicule it, effectivly killing discussion about it. Instead he is the first one to start shit up the thread with sex-toy w/e. Also, instead of posting his own reads he says I'd feel silly making a similar one which doesn't make any sense at all. I'd much rather have a post about your thought's on scum hunting rather than sex toys. At least when we are playing mafia... The next couple of posts he is effectivly fills half the thread with his talk about Evul being a perv and what not. On July 05 2012 07:56 JingleHell wrote: Well, Hopeless, since you're at least talking, I don't think you're scum yet. However, if day1 lurkers start causing trouble, I'm all for just throwing the dice and lynching one just to make a clear point.
Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things.
Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away. If you would write this as a first time player I could be somewhat cool with it. But you are not. We want to lynch scum, not lurkers. And we absolutly don't want to roll the dice. And I really don't see how you are very suspicious about the vote. There were ~50 hours untill deadline when he threw the vote. How is this even close to start a bandwagon? Like wtf? On July 05 2012 08:05 JingleHell wrote: EBWOP: And Harry, don't try to turn my logic around on me, my vote was based on your suspicious vote.
Your quote on Hopeless wasn't what I'd call a real reason to vote for someone who's at least being active, and not particularly suspicious.
Voting for him that way makes you look scummy, considering you've said nothing of real substance yet. But at this point you only had one minor post of substance as well. On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote: I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.
In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. I don't get this post. I may be missunderstanding this but if there is no substance to the case then why would that even be considered a case? And why on earth would someone ever get lynched by such a ''case'' On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote: I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.
In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. Once again, there is no threat of a bandwagon at all. Why do you keep saying that? What I find maybe most intresting is how you start the game by shitting up the thread and literally don't post a single usefull thing. When the first vote get thrown tho, You go ''WTF DUDE, VOTING IZ NOT COOL''. No, I agree that the reasoning behind the vote to begin with was verrrry vauge but I don't really see why you get so upset about it ESPICIALLY since it's not even on you. ##Vote JingleHell are you outing Jingle as your scumbuddy? or maybe trying to drag him down with you? YOU ARE SO CONFUSING. OMGUS. Why are you promoting your first post as a discussion starter? It isn't. It is an attempt to brainwash unsuspecting townies and get us talking about useless things. I commend him for shutting your down your post with this authority. If you are actually using the discussion of sex toys as a reason to call him scum, you really are just grasping at straws for lack of any real substance. In terms of day1, i don't think setting a tone on lynching lurkers is necessarily a bad thing. should we decide on lynching a lurker, the lurkers will feel a need to speak up in order to avoid getting the lynch. In other words, saying "let's lynch lurkers" promotes discussion. And "to make a point" states exactly that. "speak up or die." Jingle should probably reply to the next part, but as far as i can see, it goes - OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS ##vote -##vote x 10 - no discussion, the guy who got OMGUS'd has nothing to attack/defend. Checkmate. Turns out, he was VT o.O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ That being said, Jingle has only made very light commitments and commented on very obvious/easy things. Lazer, you still look worse. What ever his stance may be, he clearly took the time to read through JingleHell's post. He's also taking a firm stance against a player, and making a clear attempt at analysis (even if it is only day 1). You spend half your post talking about his first post, then address one of his points... then the rest I don't even understand. You have very strong feelings about Lazer, care to solidify your case for him to be a "top priority lynch?" He pushed him for a bit, and then finally let up once everyone else had suspicions on Release. His change of stance is well timed to distance himself from his provoking, but he still leaves himself an open avenue to target Release later on based on his meta from a game where Lazer played the same but got a different response from Release than this game.. The other thing that I found scummy about him was his reason for suspecting Jingle in this case: Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 11:37 Hapahauli wrote: --SNIP-- In conclusion, FOS on JingleHell. His actions regarding D1 voting are contradictory, and he's taken a very suspicious stance on anti-bandwagnoning so early into day 1.
I don't get how being anti-bandwagon can be seen as suspicious. Bandwagoning is terrible and I completely agree with Jingle's stance on it, seeing as I was the victim of a D1 mislynch in XVIII. Scum don't have to push for a majority vote this game, they can let us rile ourselves up and can vote with little risk of getting themselves caught in the mislynch votecount. FoS: Hapahauli
@Hopless1der
A lot your points are just flat-out wrong.
You first quote a short paragraph I have on the subject of Release (regarding past game history/interaction with LazerMonkey) and state that this is a "backslide from my previous case on Release." What? I had no previous case on Release - I simply asked him to clarify his stance on Lazer, and there was nothing remotely accusatory in my post. The only two players I have FOS'd are JingleHell (retracted) and currently TMG26.
I have no idea why you're calling my two paragraph analysis of Release's opinion on Lazer a "huge case." It's not even a case!
You then mention that I retract from my "case" when other people suspect him. This is flat out wrong again. Before anyone suspected release, I immediately made a move to put suspicion on Mackin and TMG26. No one FOS'd Release in the time between my "case" against him and my actual case on TMG and Mackin. Hell, the only post about Release in that timespan was LazerMonkey defending himself from Release's attacks.
In regards to my whole anti-bandwagoning thing against Jingle, I clarified my stance in this post (click). You're using a summary sentence to represent my complete view instead of taking the time to read my arguments. I don't see anything unreasonable about my stance, do you?
Your accusation mis-represents my posts without any analysis, and you are spreading easily verifiable falsehood regarding me "switching stances" on Release. This is horrendous analysis and is deliberate misrepresentation of my posts. This is very anti-town play.
FOS Hopeless1der
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Sorry for not posting in a while. I will try to make up for it now.
Although it has been done before, i wanted to make a write about Mackin.
On July 05 2012 07:06 Mackin wrote: Hey guys, just putting it out there Lazer is already on my FoS list and we're only just beginning, long contradictory post with almost too much effort put in.
His first post is about his FoS on Lazermonkey. It states that it is long and contradictory. The post did not have this contratiction in reality, some people just misinterpeted it. This might have been an attempt for a cheap bandwagon, as he was not the first to go on Lazer.
He then says that it has too much effort in it, which i think is strange. The more effort posts have, the better. The only ones who would profit from post with little effort is mafia.
On July 05 2012 07:28 Mackin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 07:22 Hopeless1der wrote: Mackin give the poor guy a chance, he's just a little excited I think. I just wanted to give him a heads up so he checks his posts more carefully, that way we can narrow down our scum lists earlier rather than later. Fair enough point, but I just want to stir up some conversation to get people talking. Ain't that what Mafia's all about?
When Hopeless later states that he had no intention of anything like a bandwagon on Lazer, Mackin quickly change his opinion again, not mentioning anything about Lazer again, as his bandwagon failed. Mafia tends to want to not have opinions alone, and rather have some other people to back them up, while town has no reason to not go after someone alone.
His other 2 post in the game was not much related to the game.
So far, Mackin has not posted anything of worth, only tried a bandwagon and agreeing with other players.
Fos: Mackin
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