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5 PvZ games that illustrate some questions I have about the match up.
PvZ #1
http://www.filedropper.com/pvz
A basic PvZ engagement respective Infantry
Protoss
11 Zealots = 1100 minerals
10 Stalkers = 1250 minerals and 500 gas
3 Immortals = 750 minerals and 300 gas
Total = 3100 minerals and 800 gas
Zerg
44 Zerglings = 1100 minerals
13 Roaches = 975 minerals and 325 gas
9 Hydralisk = 900 minerals and 450 gas
Total = 2975 minerals and 775 gas
PvZ #2
http://www.filedropper.com/pvzcolossus
I add 3 Colossus and their ostensible counter, the Corruptor
Protoss
3 Colossus = 900 minerals and 600 gas
Zerg
6 Corruptor = 900 minerals and 600 gas
PvZ #3
http://www.filedropper.com/pvzcorruptor
I reposition the Corruptors and target fire the Colossus
PvZ #4
http://www.filedropper.com/pvzqueeninfestor
A great theory crafting experiment. The original Protoss army is faced with a relatively-equal investment in Queens and Infestors
Protoss
11 Zealots = 1100 minerals
10 Stalkers = 1250 minerals and 500 gas
3 Immortals = 750 minerals and 300 gas
Total = 3100 minerals and 800 gas
Zerg
10 queens = 1500 minerals
8 infestors = 800 minerals and 1200 gas
Total = 2300 minerals and 1200 gas
PvZ #5
http://www.filedropper.com/pvzqueeninfestorfullpower
Full energy Queens and Infestors
  
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If anyone could make videos of these it would be great. I'd like to have the direct link to the videos here in the blog.
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what are you trying to achieve? This makes absolutely no sense.
And comparing cost efficiency of units is completely irrelevant because thats not how starcraft works, one player will likely have more money than the other, hence they can afford to be more inefficient etc etc. You don't see any top players playing around with this stuff and for good reason, because it is a waste of time.
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Another good comparison is replacing all the Zealots and Immortals with Blink Stalkers. Of course the micro isn't perfect, however the Blinks are pretty good. If you make that change the result looks pretty much the same, favoring Zerg
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I don't get what the point of this experiment is...
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On June 10 2012 23:41 Lyter wrote:
what are you trying to achieve? This makes absolutely no sense.
And comparing cost efficiency of units is completely irrelevant because thats not how starcraft works, one player will likely have more money than the other, hence they can afford to be more inefficient etc etc. You don't see any top players playing around with this stuff and for good reason, because it is a waste of time.
The interesting thing is that in game 1, the Zerg wins soundly. Then, you add equal parts Cols and Cors and suddenly it's the Protoss on top. Anyway, the prevailing theory is that the Zerg player needs to be one-up expansion-wise. In the first game, Zerg wins the engagement with a less expensive army. The second game, the Protoss adds Colossus (with range upgrade) and Zerg matches with Corruptors (no Corruptions, target fire should be good enough).
Although my initial query is: How do you justify building anti-air to fight Colossus when it takes so long to defeat them. Your ground army will be tazed and, yeah, the Colossus disappear, however, it'll be too late. The damage is already done once the Zerg ground army is cleaned up. Residual Corruptors are the next thing to go, since what are they gonna do against Stalks, especially those with Blink.
It's just bizarre when the game design hinges on 'hard counters' that you so drastically alter the nature of an engagement adding a unit and the best counter available. Intuition says: he builds a unit designed so that there's only one effective counter. I invest equal resources in that counter. Now that I've countered him, I should win easily, especially since I was already winning the engagement handily before I hard-countered him. However, Protoss adds Colossus and Zerg shows up Corruptor-laden, and somehow a winning engagement flips on its head.
Alternatively, you try a common Zerg unit mix, especially one to defend, sling, the standard Roach backbone, and then Hydra, and this combination defeats pretty much any Protoss infantry that doesn't include Archons (from Charge Zealot to Blink Stalker, and Immortal Support with anything in between). It seems the only answers available are Psi Storm, Archons, or Colossus. The basic Zerg composition just fares so well up against its Protoss counterpart, at least in terms of efficiency. Everything in me screams that it should be the other way around, especially since your standard PvZ unfolds 3 bases against 2. And that's the Zerg with the economic advantage, often times being fully saturated at all 3 bases.
I'm not sure this tells the tale quite the way I'd like it to. I've been trying to explain what I see at Anaheim, and I think that these customs shed some light on the somewhat confusing nature of the match up. Players like MC seem to be paper weights, and that just doesn't fit the bill.
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The way I see it, if you're getting early Psi Storm, you're just not gonna be mobile enough. The initial investment is huge, and you'll be operating primarily with Chargelots and High Templar -- so you're slow out of the gate, figuratively speaking, and you're slow in the engagement. It's easy to pick off the HTs, and the Zealots are nothing if they're being kited, or if Hydras are present. However, unless there are Archons with the army, there's no point even making Hydras because Roaches with their health will be so efficient against the High Templar and of course also those Zealots who get no more than one hit in with charge and then find themselves trailing (especially on creep).
So the Protoss is forced to forgo the early Psi Storm, almost as a rule. If Protoss goes semi-non-standard, then he's forced to morph Archons, moving with Charge Zs and Archons at a timing before a real Hydralisk presence can be established. Alternatively, it's a Force Field war. There's really no sense opening Colossus early, and everything else is a gimmick that can't be easily encapsulated in a simulation (which is alright because we have to take some interest in what constitutes 'standard')
Protoss standard then is crossing the fingers and praying. Speed Zealots and Archons will by necessity look almost the same in each game. So once a Zerg learns a counter he's happy with, it'll be smooth sailing against one wing of the Protoss tech. The other possibility is Force Fields, and yet with maps growing larger and Zerg finding opportunities to take engagements with multi-pronged attacks in relatively wide fields, the Sentries can't be expected to have enough energy to maintain Force Fields long enough to contend with Zerg macro (even if it's just Roaches).
The third option and maybe the only one I really like currently is the Immortal timing with maybe 7 Gates supporting. This slides into the realm of gimmicks, I guess, because it's an all-in. Conceal the Immortals, bank some energy on Sentries and then make a push. If the Protoss timing is good and Hydralisk don't show up with immediacy, then Force Field and the additional Immortal punch is a good bet at taking a game.
Is there anything like a viable 'standard' strategy in Protoss versus Zerg? In Starcraft we saw a variety of openings, and yet the most popular openings involving something like 4 Gates and Leg upgrade were viable across a great time span -- the hallmark of a strong standard. In Starcraft 2, to this point, it seems like the Protoss player is choosing from an array of all-ins and hoping that the Zerg makes a mistake either in scouting or in defending. Yet, there is great similarity in an effective defense against almost all the possibilities. It seems just a matter of time until Zerg locks the match down.
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Italy12246 Posts
This is completely irrelevant becuase you don't consider forcefields...
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On June 11 2012 00:32 Teoita wrote:
This is completely irrelevant becuase you don't consider forcefields...
this a thousand times
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Here's an experiment for you:
mass stalkers, collossi, and sentries, and see if anything the zerg does even matters. Comparing unit investment between protoss and zerg is a little silly, since Zerg needs to invest much, much more into their army to even stand a chance.
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The way I see it is that you are over thinking this.
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On June 11 2012 00:52 jeeeeohn wrote:
Here's an experiment for you:
mass stalkers, collossi, and sentries, and see if anything the zerg does even matters. Comparing unit investment between protoss and zerg is a little silly, since Zerg needs to invest much, much more into their army to even stand a chance.
That's a fine experiment. The question is where do the minerals go? Are you just going to build cannons everywhere, try to expand amidst static defenses and hope that a very moderate mobile army can sustain a lot of expansions?
I don't think that's a viable strategy. Maybe in Starcraft: Brood War there was some merit in static defenses, but as the great George Patton famously says, this sort of thing is a monument to the stupidity of man. And Protoss are aliens, so for them making the same mistake is even more stupid.
Protoss is the easiest race, obviously because the APM requirement is so low. While I don't agree that Starcraft: Brood War showed players 1a2a3a4a, etc., and on and on, ez mode with Psi Storms wiping out hordes of units, etc. The pictures painted of Starcraft: Brood War Protoss were not in agreement with the nature of the race.
But time drags on, and for Protoss, things have gone from bad to worse. As I demonstrate effectively, cost effectiveness is illusory. Protoss was a step behind in Starcraft: Brood War, and it's two steps behind in Starcraft Wings of Liberty. Things don't look to be getting better with Swarm, so I'd jump ship now, and get on the Zerg train. At least that's going places. When you see MC dropping games to an unknown you know that there's just not much steam behind the Protoss engine.
It's easy to see Protoss and say, well yeah, there's a lot of flashing lights and blinding screaming graphics that obscure what's going on. But underneath it all, the bare under carriage is exposed, and when stress strikes the backbone, you see rigidly it gives way, bending ever so slightly before snapping altogether. Force Fields are the life line, and those aren't viable on modern maps. The maps are too big. Sentries get lost crossing the maps, with an extra 3rd the distance as before, it just takes too long for full energy Sentries (or whatever passes for full energy Sentries) to arrive at enemy expansions. Once you get there you're in the classic conundrum, do I use Guardian Shield and keep it honest or do I go for the easy victory and lay down some Force Fields.
Divide and conquer may have gotten the job done in the early days, winning games before they transition to the midgame. Unfortunately with Protoss, time passes. Things change, and players adapt. All the rushes have been exploited and common counters have been found. Terran and even more problematically, Zerg, have learned to resist the early aggression and transition with strong economies into the mid and even latter stages of the game. This is the same thing that happened with Brood War and even Warcraft III. Although the Frozen Throne brought things back to small, almost minute, micro-battles that could last hours, or so it seemed from my casual perspective, anyway I digress. The problem is that while Terran could often make it past the 10 minute mark with relatively few casualties (or at least this was the case after a relatively short time). Zerg had repetitive problems that seemed almost damning. And perhaps this got into the Zerg metagame, infecting the player's mindset because the defensiveness evinced by the average Zerg player was quite self-limiting. It seemed that no matter what the Protoss did, Zerg was always off on the wrong foot because of this very defensive mindset. It was all or nothing aggressiveness, panning from the odd 6-pool (which still crops up here and there -- much to my expansion strategies' dismay), to a sort of hodge-podge of badly timed 'standard' defensive play.
Anyway Zerg players have gradually found more stable and economically viable strategies that eschew some of the early risks and also some of the somewhat mindless aggression that was supportable in games like Brood War where the AI and walls were less effective. A lot of things slipped through the cracks in Brood War and Zerg players maintained the same hyper-aggressive mindset. That didn't fly with Force Fields in Starcraft 2. Plus walls are a lot easier to make in the new game, and surprise cracks or run-bys are far less an issue. If you're open to a run-by, you know it, and can prepare accordingly.
So Zerg has adapted to a more stable game, as was inevitable. Unfortunately Protoss has not kept pace, and this seems to be more of a design difficulty than anything player's can address with immediacy. Today MC sacrificed some Phoenixes in what looked to me like an act of disgust. Is it possible that Korean professionals whose very livelihood depends upon their Starcraft career are willing to throw games. And if the money doesn't motivate them then surely there's an element of pride that should keep them fighting. MC, the boss toss, is not a player to be taken lightly, and I think that reputation greatly benefits him in tournament play. It's not something he would throw away lightly. And yet his Iron Fist seems to be crumbling. Of course there are still old staples, but none of them is Protoss. Even Genius seems to have faded somewhat from the GSL spotlight and is yet to make the trip across the sea to show his mettle in MSL contention.
I can only surmise that it's the natural evolution of the game exploiting flaws that were previously concealed because of inexpertise. Players taking liberties and getting away with gambits that no longer net the benefits that once they did. With Heart of the Swarm not far off, it looks like Blizzard is geared up and ready to address these challenges as though they had anticipated these metagame shifts from some distance away. Well I'm curious to see what Sase vs Leenock has to offer before I give any final commentary on the matchup. Still, the more games I observe the less confident I feel. While there was a time that I would have said Protoss was the go-to race, that time could have passed. It's possible that the elementary mechanics and the high cost (supply and resource) units are just not viable in such a fast-paced games where other players gain so much from excellent control (in the case of T like MKP), and great strategic variation requiring various complex counters like the ZvP and ZvT that is developing with Jaedong. This will probably only continue to highlight the gap in Protoss play when Brood War professionals of the caliber that Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and other famous KeSPA invitational players display when they arrive in Starcraft 2. Let's be honest, trolling aside, these players with the possible exception of Bisu (who thinks that SC2 is just too easy to be interesting)--these players are already looking like Code S contenders and they've practiced no more than 2 weeks. Is the game that easy or are they just that good?
Well, if you were to defer solely to their Brood War records, you'd think that the time of SC2 is at hand, and that when these seasoned veterans arrive, the current crop of Starcraft players will be completely out-matched. Perhaps this is just the tip of the iceberg, since not only are these seasoned veterans excellent players, but there is a whole new batch just around the corner, waiting to unveil their skill. And these are Brood War players I'm talking about, don't mistake. Players from Starcraft 1 who are virtually unheard of at this point are seeing the lucrative possibilities available in Starcraft 2 and also in the West with expanding leagues and even the possibility of nationally televised games (see MLG fall). It's quite possible that with both the old (and not to be underestimated talent arriving) in addition to the new plays and players who are yet to show up on the radar, so-to-speak, because of the cut-throat difficulty and dog-eat-dog world that is Starcraft: Brood War in Korean Professional leagues--anyway once these players both young and established appear at the forefront of gaming, does it stand to reason that current pros will have a chance? I think the answer is yes, and no. Protoss is already fading as a race, and old symbols like Nestea are struggling to keep pace. My money's on the influx of new blood and not the old coagulation. MarineKingPrime will still make appearances just like you'd expect, and Leenock is another staple. What else? Who else? Only time will tell. Well back to watching the MLG
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I hate making predictions or statements like this that are refuted so memorably in such a short span of time, and yet turn out to be exactly right in the long run. When I say that Protoss is down and out, suddenly it happens that Leenock finds himself 0-2 and out in a BO3 against a non-Korean player. Simultaneously the series with a GSL Code S champion TvP player goes 1-1 after a dominant game 1 performance from a Korean Protoss player. Then again, Polt hasn't been his usual dominant self since an MLG or maybe 2 ago. It seems like he's been suffering from the nerves that build from any champion-caliber player who suddenly finds himself in a slouch. The expectations are so much higher when you've been on top, not only other the faith of others in you; there's a certain confidence that needs to be intact and when it crumbles you make desperation moves that in hindsight don't make much sense.
Then again, hindsight is 20/20, and things often look a lot more coherent or logical after the fact. It's all too easy to look at a game of Starcraft in reverse and see obvious windows of opportunity that could never be reasonably capitalized upon in the heat of the moment. Game 3 already ramping up between Oz and Polt, so I'll have to cut this short, and say that I expect to be fully vindicated when time brings the light of truth to my reasoning. Well, that's somewhat grandiose, however, once all the data is in, and I get a chance to sign my checks, I expect my predictions will be given the justice that only time can provide. Like anyone, I hate being wrong, and there's nothing more satisfying, in some ways, than to fail in the short-term. I can look at detractors and doubters like you who rate my blogs a 1, and point to the ample of evidence of my previous posts that in fact my prescience was not to be doubted. Well, I'll return to this when time permits.
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Ghosts will be the ultimate downfall of Protoss. It's tough to survive on one match up alone, and I think Protoss versus Zerg is a lost cause. Colossus have been out of the game a while now, so once Zergs find a way to deal efficiently with Archons it should be a cake walk the majority of Protoss versus Zergs. Of course there'll be the odd Dark Templar timing or something with Void Rays that finds some success, yet with Queens showing more combat versatility as of the last patch, Voids look to be on their way out. Maybe it's too early to make that call, but the Void and Phoenix combination costs too much Gas, and one without the other is not a true threat. Phoenixes are not Oracles--300 Vespene investments are not enough to bring serious pressure to mineral lines.
With Stargates not showing much viability except involving Stargates 2 and up (apparently 3 Stargate Phoenix works if you intuit a heavy Muta play) the investment is perhaps too much to warrant application in typical play. Stargates implicity shutdown Robo play, and without Colossus, the Protoss is liable to do his own cause more harm than good leading the Zerg directly into Hydralisk (an ideal counter to non-Robotics units and low Vespene units in general). Moreover, Zerg is applying so much pressure against standard Protoss openings that the opportunities Protoss once enjoyed to exploit the advantages of 3-base macro are all but dissipated. Mutalisk are still on the table as workable solutions to any Protoss opening that limits Blink, and even Phoenix are not immune to Fungal Growth. So while the Protoss air is a super-efficient defensive measure, the natural Infestor transition means that taking to the map with Pheonix in pursuit of Mutalisk is still not a sure win.
Consider Leenock versus Sase. The Pheonix's success seems largely owing to a unlikely trap (not to mention a very, very unorthodox timing from 3 Chronoboosted Stargates). This sort of thing won't happen regularly. 300 Vespene invested in Protoss aerial production, or even more in the case of Sase's build, although I don't expect it to become the norm. Plus another 150 or 300 in Void Rays is likely to find you at an even 1,000 Vespene minimum if you're making a sincere Stargate play involving Phoenixes. The incentive to build an extra Queen or two is just too high now that their range is five in both directions. An under-commitment seems to be a death sentence almost more certainly than an over-commitment. The prod with a Void Ray and a handful of Pheonix seems destined to fail, and from the MC games it seems that the investment is one too large to recover from. Better to take it all the way and lose in a convincing fashion than to never give oneself a chance and play too lightly with the aerial opening. If Protoss really commit to the aerial play perhaps the opportunity to involve Carriers is the ultimate solution so long as the initial aerial commitment can be concealed. However, whether this works depends heavily on the Zerg committing blindly to Roaches, so scout denial is essential, and of course this build will never be called standard.
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you sound like a crack head. have you taken some roommates that do hard drugs? what's all this about hash? you obviously don't have any hash since you can't even buy weed.
these tired rants are, well, tired. you've gotta stop streaming at all hours or whatever it is that's wearing you out. people do read this stuff you know. i don't think you're trolling, but at the same time, i don't think you know what you're saying. it's just incoherent. yes the punctuation is in the right place, and the words are english, and your spelling is better than usual. there's something wrong with the style though. like none of it makes 'real' sense. are you sure you're not really on hash? maybe you've misleading us. you sound stressed out or drained somehow.
you're always writing about other people on meth or hash or whatever. you're even accusing professional players of using meth or hash to improve their play and gain unfair advantages at the expense of other players. and then you segue into talking about an imaginary roommate using these substances as though you don't wanna make accusations outloud. well, you need to be preparing for classes and getting ready to head back to school. all this stuff about working on RTS games is a pipe dream. the genre is on its way out. it doesn't make money and the latest installments have been going way down hill. not only that but your dedication to this pipe dream is absorbing all your time and you spend more time ranting about random nonsense like this than actually working on your thesis or the document you said was your resume to Blizzard (or whatever gaming company was appropriate to make an RTS). face it, other than Blizzard there is no company that's going to make an RTS because the genre isn't profitable. It takes a lot more money to make a video game than it used to, and all this shit you're saying doesn't make you a viable candidate to help develop such a game even if there was a company willing to invest the resources in making such a game. and there isn't such a company.
so anyway what i'm saying is you need to get wrap up your streaming. you've got no one to stream with anyway, now that you've pissed off Aidan and Jason. neither of them want to talk to you, and watching you play 2v2 with teammates who aren't even interested in winning is depressing. plus your own play suffers because of their antagonism and/or apathy. you're never going to be a competitive RTS player. it's been years since you were operating at a competitive level, probably 6 years since you were at your peak, and all the nonsense you fall to spouting without your friends to play with you is just disgraceful. you've gotta know when to throw in the towel. shut down the stream, get your thesis in a presentable form so that you can go back to school, and put this stuff about Starcraft on the back burner. it's a nice piece of work you've written up, but it's not going anywhere because there's no where for it to go. even if you wrote the most thorough blue print imaginable, it still wouldn't find publication. at least if you write your thesis it pertains to a subject of some relevance, and can get you admitted back into school
sorry to bring the personal drama here but your stream is just depressing. you play terribly more than half the time and blame it on drugs that you're not even using. that's absurd. not only that but if it's not drugs then it's drugs and map hacks or cheats or even complaining that someone's dad is watching your stream and telling him your moves. it's not just absurd it's insane, borderline warranting your being incarcerated in an asylum. don't waste your time with this streaming that pretty much no watches anyway. get your life together and get back into school. you don't even have a place to live. you need to take things seriously and not put all your time into these pointless pursuits when you're almost homeless and have no money. also, STOP TALKING ABOUT DRUGS. the stuff you say is just insane. no one is gonna believe that they're being mind controlled or that there's such a thing as life leech or mind leech or whatever. you've played too many video games. these concepts are not inspired by real events. these ideas are just creative ideas or fun mechanics that occur to game designers and find their way into games like LoL. stop trying to draw parallels between real life and video games. they don't exist. and if there are parallels they're simple, and not the outlandish shit that you attribute to drugs and bizarre sexual or cannabilistic acts. 'black magic' or whatever you'd term it is a real entity, and black magic practices belong to hollywood and low budget horror movies.
get your life together. if i see another one of these i'll notify the authorities.
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ProGamerX, i'm not sure you know anything about me. it's unnerving that you have some opinion about my finances or my living environment. i see your concerns with my opinion, and while i appreciate your having taken an interest, it's necessary that i ban you from my blog. don't take this to be a personal sentiment that i'm expressing about you. i just don't have unlimited time, and so i can't afford to be exposed to these sort of detracting influences. your own life must be pretty together if you're so concerned about me, so i'm sure you'll be able to occupy your time otherwise. however, if your life is a mess, then i hope to do you the small favor of helping you allocate your time more in line with your own interests. either way, it's necessary that we part ways for the time being because i simply can't operate in these conditions. i need the freedom to think and to exercise inspiration and creativity. i find that our relationship is hampering me. again, i apologize. goodbye.
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On June 10 2012 23:41 Lyter wrote:
what are you trying to achieve? This makes absolutely no sense.
And comparing cost efficiency of units is completely irrelevant because thats not how starcraft works, one player will likely have more money than the other, hence they can afford to be more inefficient etc etc. You don't see any top players playing around with this stuff and for good reason, because it is a waste of time.
You need to lighten up. There's plenty of value in these videos. The queens and infestors I found particularly interesting...I always wondered how a heavy queen composition would fair against protoss timing attacks...
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EPT
