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On May 15 2012 08:19 austinmcc wrote:
I'm going to walk away for some of this evening, because right now all I want to do is policy lynch. I will try and get back on and look into your thoughts on scumteams. Is your main train of thought right now a me/Bio + mufaa + crossfire team? Or is it me + bio + mufaa (from before the deadline)? Or me + anac + someone? Or...not me.
I feel like you are prodding me so I can help you decide whether or not I would be a good kill target for you. Just a thought. My main train of thought right now is completely jumbled because I can't stand the fact that so many people were afk (me included). It's very hard for me to read the situation because of all the possibilities at hand, none of which are provable or disprovable. All I can do is draw connections between players and how they act, which is extremely limiting and hard to wrap my head around.
I know there is probably a gem in these posts just waiting to be found, so I guess my best bet is to go through the filters again to see who is most likely to be mafia.
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On May 15 2012 08:08 austinmcc wrote:
What the actual f*** town?
There are 3 remaining mafia. You realize that means that all 3 of them could have logged on FORTY EIGHT HOURS AGO, voted for one person with zero explanation, nothing at all, and then never logged on again during D2. That person would have been lynched. With 10 bodies in this game, we already let mafia control a lynch if they wanted to. That's absolutely ridiculous.
If you don't have time for this, I'm asking you to replace out or ask to be modkilled. If you're mafia and lurking, great job there. If you're town and lurking, you are actively hurting town and ruining this game for the rest of town. If you don't have time to read, don't kill this game, because you can't be enjoying this.
Sorry dark.
Maybe I misread the votes...but wasn't it you, Tofu, and Mufaa who lynched the vanilla townie? WTF indeed.
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Ah no worries. I'll respond to all cases then, and come up with some teamreads of my own.
I'm prodding you recently posted stuff and I've agreed with a lot of your analysis. We've both voted to lynch townies each day, but I think on similar reasoning.
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I fucking told you guys to lynch BioSC. Now do it.
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On May 15 2012 08:40 Anacletus wrote:
I fucking told you guys to lynch BioSC. Now do it.
Calm down. There were obviously enough people who thought your case wasn't strong enough to vote for me.
What is more concerning is the fact that there have been lurkers now for 2 voting cycles straight.
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wow, i did not see the votes were that low!!
im really sorry guys but i was out of my house today and could not get online, i was rushing to home and made that vote on myself to avoid getting modkilled, and this weekend was jus crazy.
Now, i just read some FoS on me, since i saw Shaopi's death i was thinking i was gonna be lynched today, im sure mafia was expecting my lynching to get more room of play, it wasnt that way but sadly another townie was lynched, i see some of you are saying you have "weak reads" on me, thats because i have not much to add besides my "reads", wich you can read on my filter, its pretty basic, yes Tofu, im very indecisive for the exact same reasons, that now, 2 townies are dead. Lists, "deep analysis" whit not much to base on (¿?), suddenly going super agressive on a player.
My suspicions on Anacletus RAISED big time, but he's not my main read tho. In case i get killed (but i doubt it after this) my FoS goes to austincc.
I feel he is actually playing whit the town's "mind", he (both times) just goes super agressive on someone and gets lynched right away, he's using his good redaction skills to throw analysis at the end of both days. I will quote nothing, im gonna stick whit this, its pretty obvious for me now.
About anacletus im beliving now he's just a bad player who got lucky two times. Watch his filter and see the big difference on his posting now.
##FoS austincc and Anacletus
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i need to read more camly all the post to get a 3rd suspect. Btw, now you see, op just said there were 3 mafias. another thing i was suspicious of austin
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On May 15 2012 08:52 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
i need to read more camly all the post to get a 3rd suspect. Btw, now you see, op just said there were 3 mafias. another thing i was suspicious of austin
It's BioSC, FirmTofu, and austincc....TT
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are you suggeting that Bio and Tofu are higer in your list than austin?
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On May 15 2012 09:04 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
are you suggeting that Bio and Tofu are higer in your list than austin?
I'm suggesting that they are all mafia.
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I'm not mafia, so Anacletus is wrong in at least part of his guess. I can see why he would think austin and BioSC are mafia though. I have similar suspicions
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That one full day of inactivity caused me to misjudge day left. I thought there was 24 hour left still.
And activity only picked up in the last 12 hours. GMT+8 sleep time.
My bad
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Everyone seems pretty suspicious of me, and rightfully so. Frankly I thought I'd be a lynch candidate D2 after pushing Brood so hard.
I tunneled Brood and I pushed him on everyone, and he flipped town. D2 I voted Darkfire, but I didn't push it on anyone nearly as hard. I wasn't trying to gain votes on him, actually thought he was scummy but not pushing it like I did with Brood. If you think I'm scummy, read over what I wrote about each. I'm not the only one who voted them, although I may have been the most vocal. But if you agree with my reasoning, if you also thought they looked scummy, then don't find me scummy because I ended up being in the majority of two townie lynches. Heck, maybe we can just call the person I vote for tomorrow confirmed town.
I'm still just frustrated and so not gonna post anything major, but right now I will say that my most confident read is of FirmTofu as town (which of course now means he's probably scum). His votes have been on the same people as mine have, and we seem to have similar reasoning. I'm town, so I assume he is as well.
If you think I'm scummy because of my votes or because I've been so vocal/wrong, there may not be much I can do to change your mind. If you think I'm scummy for some other reason, let me know. Got N2 at least to clear up anything, and I'll try to be active.
Specifically for Unforgiven, I started collecting links to past minis and newbie games to show you that 12/13-man games are 3 mafia under C9++. However, some of the older newbie games are 13/14-man with 4 scum. If I'd seen those, I wouldn't have posted anything about "3 mafia." I assumed 3 because I've followed the last few minis and seen mainly 3-man scum teams, and I thought that the 9-man games were 2 scum and 12/13-man games were 3 scum. If it looks like a scumslip, so be it.
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On May 15 2012 09:18 FirmTofu wrote:
I'm not mafia, so Anacletus is wrong in at least part of his guess.
Seems legit. I'm buying this.
@FirmTofu - I noticed your play style this game is much more guarded than in the last game, and you were less active in this one early on (busy in QT?). When rereading your filters from both, it seems to me you are trying to be pro-town without really putting yourself out in front. Last game you also made a suspicion list (most to least) yourself as Town, yet flip out when I do the same in this game. Care to comment on this change in gameplay?
That accusation list must have taken a lot of effort, and looks pro-town, but how does it really help us? What did you unearth from that? Would you vote for BioSC?
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On May 15 2012 08:49 BioSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:40 Anacletus wrote:
I fucking told you guys to lynch BioSC. Now do it. Calm down. There were obviously enough people who thought your case wasn't strong enough to vote for me. What is more concerning is the fact that there have been lurkers now for 2 voting cycles straight.
@BioSC - What is your read on FirmTofu? I'm convinced one or both of you is mafia, so I would find your thoughts interesting.
Also, other than that who would you vote for right now?
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Some quick reads:
Firmtofu - + Show Spoiler +I get a town read. Relatively vocal, and has had similar votes and reasoning behind them as I have. Commence the headgames, but I also get a townie feeling from this post - + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2012 12:18 FirmTofu wrote:
Real quick, I'm not done reading, but I just had to quickly point this out. NO ONE seems to be questioning austinmcc at all?
wtf. Look at the facts guys. This guy completely switched the direction of a lynch on a scummy player onto a blue town. Yeah, he's been playing pro-town, but that doesn't negate the fact that his actions have led to a deficit in our numbers!
If Anacletus flips mafia, austinmcc is nearly certainly mafia. Everything points to it. Buddying is already evident in Anacletus' posts but I'm going to read more to find a substantial argument in favor of this. . Either that's townie logic, or it's mafia setting up to make me a lynch target.
Mufaa - + Show Spoiler +Mild town read. Wasn't very vocal early on, but didn't find Anac scummy in the early game. IF anac is scum, then this looks quite bad for mufaa. IF he's not, then this gives me a town vibe. D2 posted some decent stuff with reads on darkfire and dahdum - + Show Spoiler +On May 15 2012 02:34 Mufaa wrote:Ok, here we go. Strongest reads for me so far are Dahdum and Darkfire. Dahdum+ Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 15:18 dahdum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:48 BroodKingEXE wrote:On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again ><
I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post. What are you implying here? We should wait for everyone to post before coming to conclusions? That seems scummy to me, we should be analyzing peoples posts right now. You just created a reason for you not to post. Convince your not scum. I'm on this wagon, for BKE's reason and the "I hope you aren't mafia" statement. Let's hear more from you Firm. ##Vote FirmTofu Dahdum's Early Game posts stood out to me. First he votes Tofu off of his early post to break the ice and a reason BKE prodivded. No content of his own really yet. Later on he says that he knows FirmTofu's style better than anyone else "We were in the last game together so I also have a better sense of his style than I do of the rest of you." To me this comes off a lot like Dahdum is either trying to establish his authority on FirmTofu so he can make a push on him later (Dahdum possibly scum in this case) or defend him (Possible scum buddies). + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 05:16 dahdum wrote:
I'm at work so can't respond fully, but Tofu's response is reasonable and in line with what I expect from him as Town. So I am jumping on this new wagon, because reasons.
##Unvote
##Vote Anacletus On May 11 2012 06:58 dahdum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 05:56 Jailbreaker wrote:
:D
dahdum, why are you searching for a bandwagon and state your reasons as "because." Can you give a little more insight plz?
Actually I believe I said because reasons. If we never get any wagons going, we never pressure mafia into having to take a vote/stance. I'm at work so I can't write long explanations, but since I 100% want somebody to die today, I'm fine voting for whomever the current scummiest is. No-lynch is not an option. These two quotes are what originally got me checking into Dahdum. First he votes for Anac saying " because reasons." He might as well post "because I feel like it" at that point. Then when he is called out on stating his reasoning as "because" he says "I said because reasons." There is absolutely no benefit for town by playing like this. Then he does explain his reasons for wanting bandwagons in general, butJailbreaker was asking about his reasons for the Anac bandwagon. His only other content is a bandwagon jump to BKE and a very weak case on BioSC. Darkfirex5My suspicions of him aren't as strong, but I still have a few things I'm curious about. + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 13:10 Darkfirex5 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:17 BioSC wrote:
If they are lurking scum players, town gets a nice snipe. Should they be town, they would be just as bad as scum in that they wouldn't help town anyways.
Well, might as well get started first game :3 I'm questioning why do you speak about town in third person as if you are speaking as if town isnt including yourself, so im asking why are you not using "we" and refering to town as a "they." Also you are justifying killing town just because they arent active, a vote helps even if they are a lurker, its another person who can still vote and help kill off all of the mafia. He's suspicious of BioSC, who says town/they instead of us/we. While this is something of note while building a case it isn't enough to build a case on its own. + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 06:43 Darkfirex5 wrote:sorry im a student so i have school, currently i think this is a weak bandwagon forming on Anacletus. While his defense is weak: Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:26 Anacletus wrote:
I am only voting because I don't have much to add. I would also like to point out that *if* we hang tofu for his suspicious behavior and he is mafia then we can rule out those voting as being mafia, no?
But if he's town, shit. Yet the first person to begin the voting on Anacletus was Hyaach, his reasoning seemed just as weak: Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:33 Hyaach wrote:
No edits are allowed.
IMO, i did whatever firmtofu wrote was just a innocent day 1 remark. There is nothing more suspicious about his post than yours actually.
And say "if" he was mafia, what if the mafia decided to throw him under the bus? Not a good way to rule out anything.
I'm also just voting you because there's nothing to discuss here /sarcasm The start of this "bandwagon" is begining to form off of this, though Anacletus did have a poor response which made him more suspicious the voting on him lacks solid reasoning. Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 03:56 FirmTofu wrote:What... I said that purely in jest, teasing him about the newbie game that just completed. I didn't think you guys would go batshit insane over it. On May 11 2012 00:23 Crossfire99 wrote:
He posted less than an hour into the day and he makes a reference to a previous game. I don't know what happened in the previous game, but it seems like dahdum was mafia and Firmtofu wasn't and that the town lost (I infer this from his little >< face). It seems like he is complimenting dahdum's play and hopes they are on the same side. What's bad about that?
As for his lynching lurkers stance, he was like one of the first posts, so no one really posted and it seems he was stating that we should wait to judge people until they posted. If people still lurked after a while then he seems to support lynching the lurkers. This isn't a terrible stance if I am interpreting him correctly, so I want clarification from him on this, though.
Crossfire put it best. dahdum was in a game before this and I just commented on how I hope he isn't scum again because he played well last game. I didn't think I was acting suspicious at all, but apparently it was? Regardless, we should switch up our votes onto some more scummy targets. There are certain people that are playing very pro-town right now, but may be doing so just to gain the town's trust. It's extremely hard to tell from just Day 1 behavior, so I think our best for a lynch would be to hunt those people who are genuinely acting scummy or playing poorly. Anacletus seems like the perfect target to start. On May 10 2012 23:26 Anacletus wrote:
I am only voting because I don't have much to add. I would also like to point out that *if* we hang tofu for his suspicious behavior and he is mafia then we can rule out those voting as being mafia, no?
But if he's town, shit. This quote is suspicious, for reasons mentioned previously my numerous people. However, there is an interesting phrasing of words I find rather intriguing. See bold. What motive would anyone have to say that sentence. Is it not already a statement of fact? Why did he feel the need to reiterate something that is quite obvious to everyone that is playing: If we lynch Tofu and he's town, then we are in trouble. Well, no shit Sherlock. Generally when town people die, the mafia gets farther ahead. Here's my theory. Anacletus knows I am town, because I'm not on his mafia team. Therefore, he knows if and when I get lynched, I will flip town. That statement is guilt insurance and a scum tell because of it. He is trying to insure himself now so that later, he can say "Aw crap, well I was wrong, but look at my previous post where I admitted I might be wrong!"When town members vote people, they don't know whether they are right or wrong. When mafia vote people they know the exact alignment of the person they are voting. I believe this knowledge just leaked from Anacletus the mafia. ##vote:Anacletus I bolded the part im talking about (didnt cut out any as to take something out of context^). Another thing now is that Tofu anounces the role of being a townie, and the reason (supposidly) why Anacletus targeted him was because he knew he was town (because he was mafia)? Now im questioning then why did he target you (tofu) only because you were town. Why initiate like that on a post that seemed insignifigant. I'm building suspicion on the reasoning for starting this bandwagon on Anacletus. Im still not placing a vote down yet but the starting reasonings for the votes lacks evidence and the follow up points (to me dont seem solid). Lastly: Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 04:52 BioSC wrote:Good morning. Lets get to business. Somehow I managed to miss this post back on page 5. On May 10 2012 13:10 Darkfirex5 wrote:On May 10 2012 08:17 BioSC wrote:
If they are lurking scum players, town gets a nice snipe. Should they be town, they would be just as bad as scum in that they wouldn't help town anyways.
Well, might as well get started first game :3 I'm questioning why do you speak about town in third person as if you are speaking as if town isnt including yourself, so im asking why are you not using "we" and refering to town as a "they." Also you are justifying killing town just because they arent active, a vote helps even if they are a lurker, its another person who can still vote and help kill off all of the mafia. If you are going to put pressure on me, at least make it substantial/useful. If you are going to quote me, quote the whole post, not half of it and take it out of context. "They" is referring to lurking players, which I am not, thus I didn't use "we". This suspicion about "misused" pronouns is silly, and only drives me to wonder about you. You have only made one post so far, and wasn't very helpful. So far, the only lurkers here are you and Mufaa, whom has yet to post ANYTHING. Not enough to drive my vote to you, but I'm sure to keep an eye on your posts. I was refering to why you said town gets a nice snipe instead of we are geting a nice snipe, i was only adding on some slight pressure on the begining, which was similar to other posts. The way you get very defensive and attack my one post only asking about your reference to town/mafia. FOS: BioSc From your posts folowing, i think less of you as being mafia, and more so townie, that doesnt mean i wont continue keeping an eye on you too. Now take this massive post Darkfire "contributed." The first 3/4 of it are on how this is a weak bandwagon case on Anac, with the last 1/4 on a wording dispute. From there he posts mostly fluff until this gem. Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 12:30 Darkfirex5 wrote:
well now we have a lot to work with at least, i guess ShiaoPi was onto something, time to avenge him :D How do you know ShiaoPi was on to something? Austin and Anac both offered easy suggestions to why the mafia voted the way they did other than that they wanted to silence the person was closest to discovering them (Silencing vocal townies to stiffle discussion,attempting to frame the people on his list, etc...). Why should we believe this was just a careless post and not a slip? . I still don't love his vote on Jailbreaker D1, and, just like with Tofu, I read his votes as good town play, but with the possibility that I just have terrible, terrible reads and Tofu/Mufaa look kind of suspicious. Still hoping for the former.
Dahdum - + Show Spoiler + Looks pretty scummy to me. 3 different votes day 1: + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 15:18 dahdum wrote:
I'm on this wagon, for BKE's reason and the "I hope you aren't mafia" statement. Let's hear more from you Firm.
##Vote FirmTofu , + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 05:16 dahdum wrote:
I'm at work so can't respond fully, but Tofu's response is reasonable and in line with what I expect from him as Town. So I am jumping on this new wagon, because reasons.
##Unvote
##Vote Anacletus , + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 05:33 dahdum wrote:
##unvote
##Vote BroodKingEXE
Might not be enough to swing it, but I feel more comfortable lynchying BKE than Anac at this point. . Little to no reasoning on the first two, the third has none at all. The rest of his posts don't add anything really. He lists his reads at one point, but it's just a short write-up on each person without much analysis ( + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 11:45 dahdum wrote:
Here are my reads and yes I know this is partially a rehash of events.
--Scummy List - --
Most To Least
Analectus - No point summarizing so far, chief suspect. Actually votes for himself after attempting to throw his vote away without reason, and says "I never said I was protown". Not acting like town.
Hyaach - Bandwagons, no pressure at all. Urges caution. Scummy.
BioSC - Highly defensive, focuses on Analectus.
Darkfirex5 - Keeps cautioning against bandwagons and voting too early, sounds like scum trying to defend Analectus. Last post says he's voting against Unforgiven but then botches the vote for Analectus?
Crossfire99 - Obsessed with Analectus, doesn't discuss anyone else.
BKE - Not providing reads, only a semi-baseless vote which helped get the game going. Talks about scum will do and urges caution. Scummy.
Jailbreaker - Worried about people pressuring too much, defensive, not contributing reads, promises something soon.
Mufaa - Very few posts but cites RL reason and reiterates basic strategy. Jumps on Analectus for technicality, contributes no reads on anyone else.
Austinmcc - Rightly pressures Analectus for his "i don't have much to add" vote, continues to lay one the pressure but never calls him out as scum or gives any real reads/analysis.
FirmTofu - Defends the bandwagon well, placing reasonable pressure on Analectus. Compared to last game he seems more thoughtful however, so I'm suspicious of that.
ShiaoPi - Jumps on Hyaach, lots of analysis. The huge post is somewhat indicative of a scum play, but I concur with his picks (Analectus/Hyaach) so far. ). So D1 I don't get much of a townie vibe from him, and it looks like he's posting a lot of fluff and votes without reasoning. He's got that weird little spat with BioSC, and continues that into D2, voting for him. I need to take a harder look at that exchange, because I feel like we can get some information out of their chatter. After D1, we don't have much from him. No real contributions on N1 or D2, gone most of D2. Posts just enough to look active compared to the actual lurking that was going on during D2. As far as posters who have been "active," he gives me one of the strongest scum vibes at the moment.
Crossfire - + Show Spoiler +So far, Crossfire doesn't really seem to have done ANY scumhunting. D1 he discusses the votes on firm, the votes on anac, the Brood/Anac votes, but never really says anything about anyone beyond those. Sticking solely to discussion of the major targets could be a move to blend in, not provide anything substantive. + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 14:10 Crossfire99 wrote:
Ok I'm going to summarize what I feel happened at the end of the day just to put everything into context
WALL OF TEXT WENT HERE
. Summaries of what happened aren't really helpful, they don't give us anything new. Also, to the extent anyone reads through a summary, they're NOT looking at the actual posts and discussion itself for information, which feels a little scummy to me. Skip to N1, what do we get from Crossfire? + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 14:55 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 12:50 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Guys, I just relized something, we should not discuss anything at night, that's just helps the mafia, they will get
The player whit the better read. We should wait and don't make any deep analysis, what do you think? I also want other people's opinions on this. I am kinda on the other side of the issue as you, unforgiven. In my last game a lot of people said no one should post during the night except for like the last 5 min, so mafia couldn't do any night actions based on it. This meant the night was dead and no one discussed anything. I feel that if everyone freely discusses everyone can start to get on the same page and focus on a few people. But I'm not sure if the discussion is worth it if mafia can base night actions off of it. ugh. I just don't know what's best. what are everyone else's thoughts? and + Show Spoiler +On May 13 2012 01:21 Crossfire99 wrote:Very good points on unforgiven, Shaopi. I would definitely like to hear his response to your case. The only thing I disagree about your case is the first point about this quote + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 12:50 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Guys, I just relized something, we should not discuss anything at night, that's just helps the mafia, they will get
The player whit the better read. We should wait and don't make any deep analysis, what do you think? . Honestly, I think he truly believes that statement. In my only other game, people had the same viewpoint as him and I didn't take it as scummy. That is why I asked the question in my last post. I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on talking during the night. Unforgiven is against it. Hyaach says you shouldn't talk unless you were already vocal since you already have a target on your back. Shaopi, you said you are definitely in favor of it. Heck I came out sligtly in favor of it in my last post but completely wishy washy because I just don't know. This is why pm'd the coach, probulous, about it. I want to see what a more experienced player says about it. Just so this doesn't get lost in my paragraph. unforgiven, what is your response to shaopi's case on you. He brings up good points. . Neither of which feels helpful. In fact, those responses actively feel scummy to me. He gives a little of his own opinions, but mainly seems to be fishing out info and discussion from others. Sure, getting more info could be a town trait, but when he's not really providing anything himself, I read this as him trying to get discussion out of folks N1 to pick a good mafia target. He wants everyone's opinions on whether to post at night, wants active night discussion, then notes that he was "wishy washy", pmed a coach, and ... and nothing. IF he wants to bring up that he sought coaching on this point, why not put it into action? Why not tell us what prob thought? Unless prob told him "don't post at all," then he either (a) didn't actually PM anyone or (b) didn't DO anything about what prob said. That feels fishy, especially with him seeking info from others. Then D2...lurk lurk. Lurk lurk lurk. Posts, leaves, done. I'm quite suspicious of cross at this point. He's done ZERO scumhunting, he fished for info N1, and he lurked. Probably my top scumread right now.
Unforgiven - + Show Spoiler +All I have is a gut slightly townie read. The lurking hurts us bad, and I reeeeeally don't like it, but for some reason his concern over me thinking there were 3 mafia members strikes me as townie. I could interpret it two ways: (1) trying to scumhunt and believing that to be a slip on my part; or (2) mafia going "HOW DOES HE KNOW OUR NUMBERS?" My gut impression is the first, and he's not a scum candidate for me right at this second. Currently I just have a very, very slightly town read on him and feel like others are just scummier.
Hyaach - + Show Spoiler +There's not much there. The timezone difference accounts for some of that, because it looks like he's asleep pre-deadline time. But the lurking D2 doesn't help his case. You've participated some when you've been around, please continue and get some content out during N2 or D3. If you don't, it's anti-town enough that I kind of have to read you as scummy. But not enough to really go on at this point.
Bio and Anac are going to take me a little more work, but I wanted to go ahead and post this. I guess right now I'm looking at a scumteam of Dahdum/Crossfire/+1, which might come out of Bio or Anac. I need to look more at BioSC and Dahdum's little spat with each other, perhaps they're both intentionally making weak cases on the other to fill the thread, and if one got lynched the other could try to turn that into some town cred. Will read over Anac, I'm not as confident in my newbie town read as I was D1, but I want to find some actual reasons why and look harder.
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Looks like I won't be back before the deadline, so I'll just parrot what everyone else is saying and note that I'm still suspicious of Anac, despite arguing against a vote on him D1.
What really sticks out to me is this post -
On May 11 2012 00:09 Anacletus wrote:
I've played mafia before. That being said nothing that I say is guaranteed so playing one playstyle will probably let them metagame us. I was only throwing out my 2 cents. Also, maybe I'm metagaming knowing mafia will read this.
The hole goes deeper.
I alluded to it D1, + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 00:39 austinmcc wrote:Anacletus, why, specifically, did you vote Tofu? All you've said is: In your original vote. But you didn't tell us what you found suspicious. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:41 Anacletus wrote:
I doubt that the mafia would try to be hyper-aggressive day 1. I think that the people who aren't voting are suspicious. I think it makes more sense for the mafia to try and be passive in voting yet vocal in chat to try and rule who otherw vote for and keep their hands clean. Say you think this, why vote Tofu? He posted once, 40 minutes into the game, and hasn't been active. That's not vocal in chat. His activity so far this game doesn't fit the pattern that you believe to be scummy. Town's job isn't to care about what gameplan mafia may or may not have. Our job is to hunt scum. To me, your vote on Tofu, especially as it runs against your own reasoning, looks scummy or newbie townish. Yet you say you've played games elsewhere before.
I don't know whether to slot Anac in as the third mafia, whether to think maybe dahdum and BioSC were just looking to make weak cases on each other and gain town cred if one was lynched and flipped scum, or whether there's another third mafia member out there. Relatively confident in those other two reads, and I can't really adopt some plan of "Assume everyone I read as scum is town," because that's just too confusing.
I'll post more when I get enough free time and a computer, but it will be after the deadline. If nothing else, should I be the nightkill, hopefully some of this will be helpful.
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On May 16 2012 06:05 austinmcc wrote:Looks like I won't be back before the deadline, so I'll just parrot what everyone else is saying and note that I'm still suspicious of Anac, despite arguing against a vote on him D1. What really sticks out to me is this post - Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 00:09 Anacletus wrote:
I've played mafia before. That being said nothing that I say is guaranteed so playing one playstyle will probably let them metagame us. I was only throwing out my 2 cents. Also, maybe I'm metagaming knowing mafia will read this.
The hole goes deeper. I alluded to it D1, + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 00:39 austinmcc wrote:Anacletus, why, specifically, did you vote Tofu? All you've said is: In your original vote. But you didn't tell us what you found suspicious. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:41 Anacletus wrote:
I doubt that the mafia would try to be hyper-aggressive day 1. I think that the people who aren't voting are suspicious. I think it makes more sense for the mafia to try and be passive in voting yet vocal in chat to try and rule who otherw vote for and keep their hands clean. Say you think this, why vote Tofu? He posted once, 40 minutes into the game, and hasn't been active. That's not vocal in chat. His activity so far this game doesn't fit the pattern that you believe to be scummy. Town's job isn't to care about what gameplan mafia may or may not have. Our job is to hunt scum. To me, your vote on Tofu, especially as it runs against your own reasoning, looks scummy or newbie townish. Yet you say you've played games elsewhere before. , but I didn't pressure that point. I still don't like him as a lynch candidate over others, but the fact that he came out and said he was new keeps me unsure about absolutely branding him as just playing poorly as town early on. I don't know whether to slot Anac in as the third mafia, whether to think maybe dahdum and BioSC were just looking to make weak cases on each other and gain town cred if one was lynched and flipped scum, or whether there's another third mafia member out there. Relatively confident in those other two reads, and I can't really adopt some plan of "Assume everyone I read as scum is town," because that's just too confusing. I'll post more when I get enough free time and a computer, but it will be after the deadline. If nothing else, should I be the nightkill, hopefully some of this will be helpful.
I think that the day 1 votes should be enough proof that I'm not mafia considering I was nearly killed.
Vote BioSC - FirmTofu - austinmcc
mafia!
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Ok I apologize for not doing anything during day2 but life happened. If anyone wants a more detailed explantion than that just ask and I'll explaini how I've had zero time the last few days. Note: I don't have a smartphone, so I can't post on the go or any of that stuff fyi.
So I guess I'll start by defending myself from Austin's accusation of being mafia. Here is his argument + Show Spoiler +On May 16 2012 03:42 austinmcc wrote:Some quick reads: -snipped- Crossfire - + Show Spoiler +So far, Crossfire doesn't really seem to have done ANY scumhunting. D1 he discusses the votes on firm, the votes on anac, the Brood/Anac votes, but never really says anything about anyone beyond those. Sticking solely to discussion of the major targets could be a move to blend in, not provide anything substantive. + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 14:10 Crossfire99 wrote:
Ok I'm going to summarize what I feel happened at the end of the day just to put everything into context
WALL OF TEXT WENT HERE
. Summaries of what happened aren't really helpful, they don't give us anything new. Also, to the extent anyone reads through a summary, they're NOT looking at the actual posts and discussion itself for information, which feels a little scummy to me. Skip to N1, what do we get from Crossfire? + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 14:55 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 12:50 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Guys, I just relized something, we should not discuss anything at night, that's just helps the mafia, they will get
The player whit the better read. We should wait and don't make any deep analysis, what do you think? I also want other people's opinions on this. I am kinda on the other side of the issue as you, unforgiven. In my last game a lot of people said no one should post during the night except for like the last 5 min, so mafia couldn't do any night actions based on it. This meant the night was dead and no one discussed anything. I feel that if everyone freely discusses everyone can start to get on the same page and focus on a few people. But I'm not sure if the discussion is worth it if mafia can base night actions off of it. ugh. I just don't know what's best. what are everyone else's thoughts? and + Show Spoiler +On May 13 2012 01:21 Crossfire99 wrote:Very good points on unforgiven, Shaopi. I would definitely like to hear his response to your case. The only thing I disagree about your case is the first point about this quote + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 12:50 Unforgiven_ve wrote:
Guys, I just relized something, we should not discuss anything at night, that's just helps the mafia, they will get
The player whit the better read. We should wait and don't make any deep analysis, what do you think? . Honestly, I think he truly believes that statement. In my only other game, people had the same viewpoint as him and I didn't take it as scummy. That is why I asked the question in my last post. I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on talking during the night. Unforgiven is against it. Hyaach says you shouldn't talk unless you were already vocal since you already have a target on your back. Shaopi, you said you are definitely in favor of it. Heck I came out sligtly in favor of it in my last post but completely wishy washy because I just don't know. This is why pm'd the coach, probulous, about it. I want to see what a more experienced player says about it. Just so this doesn't get lost in my paragraph. unforgiven, what is your response to shaopi's case on you. He brings up good points. . Neither of which feels helpful. In fact, those responses actively feel scummy to me. He gives a little of his own opinions, but mainly seems to be fishing out info and discussion from others. Sure, getting more info could be a town trait, but when he's not really providing anything himself, I read this as him trying to get discussion out of folks N1 to pick a good mafia target. He wants everyone's opinions on whether to post at night, wants active night discussion, then notes that he was "wishy washy", pmed a coach, and ... and nothing. IF he wants to bring up that he sought coaching on this point, why not put it into action? Why not tell us what prob thought? Unless prob told him "don't post at all," then he either (a) didn't actually PM anyone or (b) didn't DO anything about what prob said. That feels fishy, especially with him seeking info from others. Then D2...lurk lurk. Lurk lurk lurk. Posts, leaves, done. I'm quite suspicious of cross at this point. He's done ZERO scumhunting, he fished for info N1, and he lurked. Probably my top scumread right now. Bio and Anac are going to take me a little more work, but I wanted to go ahead and post this. I guess right now I'm looking at a scumteam of Dahdum/Crossfire/+1, which might come out of Bio or Anac. I need to look more at BioSC and Dahdum's little spat with each other, perhaps they're both intentionally making weak cases on the other to fill the thread, and if one got lynched the other could try to turn that into some town cred. Will read over Anac, I'm not as confident in my newbie town read as I was D1, but I want to find some actual reasons why and look harder.
First, about the pm stuff and night posting. I pm'd Probulous twice so far with this text + Show Spoiler + What's your thought on night posts in general? Should people freely talk during the night? Should they come up with a big post and post in the last few minutes before the day?
I haven't done any Scumhunting? Really? I know I wasn't there for Day 2, but here is some stuff from Day 1.
+ Show Spoiler + On May 11 2012 00:23 Crossfire99 wrote:I don't understand why everyone is not liking Firmtofu's first post + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again ><
I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post. .He posted less than an hour into the day and he makes a reference to a previous game. I don't know what happened in the previous game, but it seems like dahdum was mafia and Firmtofu wasn't and that the town lost (I infer this from his little >< face). It seems like he is complimenting dahdum's play and hopes they are on the same side. What's bad about that? As for his lynching lurkers stance, he was like one of the first posts, so no one really posted and it seems he was stating that we should wait to judge people until they posted. If people still lurked after a while then he seems to support lynching the lurkers. This isn't a terrible stance if I am interpreting him correctly, so I want clarification from him on this, though. As for me, I am only in favor of lynching lurkers as an absolute last resort. I feel we need to do our best scumhunting and if we do a good job, we can lynch a scum. Right now I am suspicious of Anacletus. He comes in and votes for Firmtofu as his first post with no explanation, but then gives this terrible reason for voting in his next post + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 23:26 Anacletus wrote:
I am only voting because I don't have much to add. I would also like to point out that *if* we hang tofu for his suspicious behavior and he is mafia then we can rule out those voting as being mafia, no?
But if he's town, shit. He basically says he is just bandwagoning and not thinking for himself and this is just terrible. He then questions why Hyaach voted for him and defends himself with this + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 23:41 Anacletus wrote:It was for a misspell. I don't understand what your line about FirmTofu is saying, it makes no sense. I doubt that the mafia would try to be hyper-aggressive day 1. I think that the people who aren't voting are suspicious. I think it makes more sense for the mafia to try and be passive in voting yet vocal in chat to try and rule who otherw vote for and keep their hands clean. . He goes on theorizing about how mafia would play day 1. How do you know that they want to play like? Honestly I think people who are vocal in the thread, but don't through their vote around willy-nilly and don't just follow whatever the current train is in the thread are smart. It's the poeple who vote without any good reason who are suspicious to me. What say you Anacletus? On May 12 2012 05:03 Crossfire99 wrote:Sorry for being so inactive, I’ve been very busy today. I haven’t been able to keep up with the thread very much, so I’ll focus on two things. My current position on Anacletus and this newfound suspicion on BroodKingEXE In relation to Anacletus: So far he has said he has had no information + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 09:22 Anacletus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 09:16 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@Anacletus, What have you been doing? Has the pressure vote brought any information? Scum hunting means analyzing responses to stuff like this, I'm willing to give you the benifit of the doubt if you provide useful information. I don't have any information. So no benefits and no doubts shall be given then I assume? . Then he goes on to have a suspicion of BioSC + Show Spoiler + My personal feelings as of right now is that BioSC is mafia. He's been super passive while we've been at each others throats and has been trying to redirect attention off of himself. backed up with little evidence. He also calls dahdum a bit suspicious because he posted his reads on everyone. (Note: I sort of agree with him here. I don’t think it is necessarily scummy, but a list of your reads on someone is not as helpful as a case against a few people. These posts also allow an easy for scum to hide and seem like they are doing work. In the end this quote goes in his favor.) Lastly he defends himself by saying is just a bad townie and doesn’t have any reads on everyone, just guesses + Show Spoiler + On May 12 2012 01:01 Anacletus wrote:
Yeah, it's just bad town play. I really hope you guys don't lynch me and let the cop check me or something.
In the beginning I was just being reckless to start up the conversations. I've said it multiple times, but I'll say it again, I have no interest in hanging anyone yet as everything is just inconclusive guesses. . This isn’t a good defense because we have to lynch someone day 1 and since we have to lynch someone, he should put in work looking for scum instead of whatever little effort he has been giving so far. Right now he is just making excuses for not scum hunting. -------------------------------------- Now onto BroodKingEXE: I will start with this quote from ausitnmcc. It is his case against Brood. + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 22:38 austinmcc wrote:My thoughts on Anacletus: His play does not feel like good townie play. I brought that up earlier, we've all discussed it by now, and I think we all seem to come to the same conclusion. While I would support a lynch of Anacletus, I think we have better targets. I'll look through his responses more today, but for now I would prefer to look elsewhere, and see how Anacletus continues to play. Right now, "not good townie play" is my read, but I'm not convinced that his play is scummy and not just bad townie play. However, we've got a quarter of D1 left, and I want to throw this case out and push it a little, see what comes of it. My top scum read: BroodKingEXE. BroodKingEXE filter - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707&user=233869Skip 2/3 of the first page. It's pregame. He's active, vocal, chatting a lot with everyone in the pregame. Doesn't really mean anything. First posts: + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 12:53 BroodKingEXE wrote:
/confirm
Lynching lurkers in the early game not a good idea. My reasoning is that people need to be able to post before we persecute them. Something to think about lurkers, Mafia will try to lurk, but their posts will have more intent behind each one. Why? Every post they make is going to push its own idea of an agenda, but the more they post the more the idea could be misinterpreted. Before we lynch a lurker let's look at the intent of the post: a Mafia agenda push or a helpful Townie post. On May 10 2012 13:18 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Not true, lynching an inactive is a waste. Scum wants us to not lynch them. We can call lurkers out, and they have to respond. They don't respond, we start looking at them. Lynching, because they are lurkers is stupid. On May 10 2012 13:48 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again ><
I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post. What are you implying here? We should wait for everyone to post before coming to conclusions? That seems scummy to me, we should be analyzing peoples posts right now. You just created a reason for you not to post. Convince your not scum. ##Vote: Firm Tofu These aren't entirely incompatible. Lynching lurkers bad, pressuring them good, let people post before we jump to conclusions. That seems townie, fine and dandy, but then he fires off the very first vote of the game on FirmTofu. Why? Because FirmTofu posted + Show Spoiler + On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again ><
I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post. Look at the bolded part of Broodking's first post. Now back to me. Now back to the bolded part of FirmTofu's post. Now back to me. Anything? That's the same exact thought process. And yet when FirmTofu vocalizes that, Broodking fires off the first vote of the game. I still don't agree with that vote at all, even if it was just to "pressure" someone, because there's absolutely no grounds for voting someone because they express a thought you just expressed slightly earlier. From then on out, it's a series of one-liner and response posts, but never really DOING anything. Last night (eastern time), BroodKing had one of the longest filters, and yet the only substantive post was him voting FirmTofu off the bat. For example: + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 03:30 BroodKingEXE wrote:
You can withhold your vote but you still need to scum hunt. On May 11 2012 04:01 BroodKingEXE wrote:
This post makes sense, Anacletus' play has been pretty wierd. I need to hear a response from him before I vote though. This line stood out to me. BroodKing threw out of FIRST vote of the game on Tofu, before there was play to analyze and before Tofu responded to anything. Why does he need a response now to vote? After that, he starts giving responses to other people, specifically ShiaoPi's reads, but doesn't really add anything of substance. scummy+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 04:05 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@Hyaach Why did you put your vote on Ancletus? You had just as much reasoning as him. That is none. On May 11 2012 04:33 BroodKingEXE wrote:
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!! ShiaoPi are you defending Hyaach? A null read? He has provided zero evidence for his vote. Your whole list is terrible, it provides nothing more than a bunch "I'm leaning town, but you can never be sure reads". I smell a scumwagon. On May 11 2012 05:38 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Your big post brings up a list of null reads. Its misleading due to its size when its content is a bunch of reiteration of events. Scum will make posts like this to make themselves seem useful. If you actually read your reasoning for voting for anacletus it is: he was not eager, a post lacking logic, and a bandwagon. The first two could be townie mistakes and bandwagons aren't very effective when people have strong objections to the canidate. On the other hand, you have voted with the person you first thought was scum and had dropped your suspicions based on...nothing. On May 11 2012 09:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Just needed explanation for your vote/post. This canidate seems really rushed though, people haven't looked at his latest posts for signs of scumminess. I agree that his past posts are suspicious, but we need to look at his current posts. Too much like a wagon for me to vote for him yet. Note that at this point, ShiaoPi has just thrown out the first real list of reads we had from anyone. BroodKing posts a couple times concerning the list, but doesn't really add anything. While he gets information out of ShiaoPi, he doesn't really provide any himself. At no point in those posts does he agree with a read or disagree with a read, rather, he simply acknowledges that reads were made and ShiaoPi voted. This is also the first point we begin to move AWAY from the Anacletus discussion (which has run its course at this point), and BroodKing continues to ask for information based on ShiaoPi's vote for Anacletus. Finally, compare his filter from this game with his filter from Newbie VIII, where he was town. + Show Spoiler + There are some posts in a similar style to his posts here, but a LOT of @x and @y, what do you guys think about z. Lots of longer discussions, paragraphs, lists. SOME of that is because he was the lynch target D1 and so had to be active and defend himself. But his townie posts from VIII feel more robust and they contribute, whereas his posts so far in XIII do not. ------------------------------- Anacletus's play still feels more bad than scummy. I would like to let him live for now, and see if he starts to really contribute. Right now he has 0 town cred, so if he's mafia he can't actively muck up town discussion. If we back off the pressure, MAYBE he mounts a decent defense and provides some good reads, because...he's got to do that to get any cred back. If not? We lynch him later, or we see if we can get any information N1 from blue roles that push us forward. Compared to Anacletus though, BroodKingEXE looks actively scummy. So far he hasn't contributed anything of note except the first vote of the game, which made little sense. He's supports getting responses before voting, but then votes without a response from FirmTofu. He wants scumhunting and reasoning, but has provided none. Again, I'm not opposed to an Anacletus lynch, but I would prefer to lynch the player that seems scummiest, which is BroodKing. ##Vote BroodKingEXE
##FOS: AnacletusDahdum, I'm especially interested in hearing your thoughts on this, as you read BroodKing to be scummy as well. I didn't really notice him until I looked through all the filters last night and realized he was my best scumread. Do you agree with my reasoning? Did you have different reasoning? I agree with some of what Austin has said because when I did my own read through of Brood’s filter, it is just a mess of garbage posts. He also hypocritically accuses Firmtofu and votes for him because Formtofu said to wait until everyone has posted before judging them evev though he said the same thing. But, I will say that his redeeming quality is that he is pretty active and is suspicios of these giant “here are my reads for every person in the game” posts. I don’t like these posts that much because as he pointed out, they are an easy way for scum to hide and seem like they are doing work, but in reality they aren’t. This means that he is less scummy in my eyes than Anacletus, but I am going to keep my eye on him in the future. ##Vote Anacletus
I clearly go through Anac's posts and show why I thought he was scummy. How is that not scumhunting? I also responded to your case about brood and why I thought it was better to lynch Anac. Those were the big issues that everyone focused on Day 1, so that is what I discussed. It is useless to bring up argumentss on people i don't have a good read on becaue it jstu clogs up the thread. It was day 1, you aren't gonig to have great arguments on most people.
About the "wall of text" (do you mean paragraph?) + Show Spoiler + On May 12 2012 14:10 Crossfire99 wrote:
Ok I'm going to summarize what I feel happened at the end of the day just to put everything into context. Anacletus has been playing scummy all game, then when everyone starts voting for him he starts flailing around and his posting can be seen to improve a little (I am still suspicious of him and expect him to step up his game to prove he isn't mafia in order to survive a day 2 lynch.) During this time austin puts together a case on Brood which many find convincing (It also caused me to put Brood on my radar). He adds to it and more join and switch votes. Brood defends himself terribly and dies for it. He turns out to be a 1 shot cop.
On May 12 2012 14:10 Crossfire99 wrote:Now going through the filters nothing really stuck out to me until I ran across these two posts by Mufaa. + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 06:18 Mufaa wrote:
Like I've been saying since my first post, I think Ana is bad town more than mafia. Every scummy thing he has done has been so scummy that if he was Mafia his partners would be berating him so bad he probably would have stopped posting instead of digging himself into this giant hole he's made.
Austin's point about how even if Ana is scum he's lost so much credibility he can't make a push on someone d2. If he doesn't improve his play we might have to take him out later, but right now if we lynch him we won't gain any real info. Everyone has been on to him at some point, so if he flips town we gain almost nothing from this since his posts lack any content. If he flips scum the scum would lose a player, but that honestly might help them if he really is scum and is playing like this.
If we lynch someone else and they flip town, we can see who has been focused on them, who stayed out of the discussion on that person and we at least have some good info to discuss over d2. The odds are just as good of anyone else flipping scum, so I would rather flip someone who would give us info instead of giving scum the option to hide behind the excuse that Ana was such a bad townie, how could everyone not vote for him.
I think BroodKingEXE needs to post some content instead of one liners and just agreeing with people as it comes off scummy, but he isn't my first choice at the moment.
Jailbreaker- Why haven't you posted in the last 3 and a half pages? You commented early on about how much aggression there was but you haven't made a single case, even hinted at having a read, or contributed to the town in any way. Why are you so content to just sit back and watch everyone else debate with the deadline so close?
##Vote Jailbreaker
This isn't a permanent vote. I think Jailbreaker is the best lynch so far. If no one else feels this way, I will swing my vote to BroodKingEXE to get some info from the lynch as I do think his actual content will give us something to compare to everyone else d2 once we see his flip. On May 12 2012 07:19 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:52 ShiaoPi wrote:
Looking at Anacletus' later posts we could take a guess and say he is a townie who played bad. Especially for Mafia he is worthless right now due to his 0 town cred.
Regarding BroodkingEXE, I guess I already said that he is either scum or blue.
The case pushed by Mufaa is Jailbreaker, who is for sure another player high on the scum list, but there is also too little to make of him and I do not believe it warrants a lynch.
Other suspects have posted little so really making a solid case against them is hard, especially within ~1 hour.
So in the end I guess we are still left with the question to lynch either Anacletus or BroodkingExe.
I should probably stop rambling now and wait for your thoughts on it.
Let me clarify my vote. I wasn't making a concerted push on Jailbreaker. I was hoping others would follow suit to put some pressure on him and force some content before the deadline. 45 til the deadline and only 3 real posts w/ no vote means he's probably gonna get modkilled or warned so it won't matter either way. Still I don't like the idea of letting someone lurk the entire day.
Since Jailbreaker seems out that really only leaves a choice between bkexe and Ana. I don't think ana's flip will tell us anything other than his alignment so I'm going to vote bkexe just to not waste d1.
##Vote BroodKingEXE All he talks about is lynching for information. He doesn't think anac is scum. It also seems that he doesn't think that Brood is scum either. He says explicitly that an anac lynch won't give information but that a Brood lynch will. Now this is the part where it gets weird. At this point in time the vote count was 7-4 in favor of brood with him and Jail yet to vote. Worse case scenario for mufaa would be that jail voted for anac therefore making the voting 7-5. This means that mufaa was the only one left who hadn't voted. to make matters worse 5 people had just switched from anac to brood. They weren't going to switch back. Austin led the case and he wasn't moving. unforgiven switched from himself to brood after reading the cases against brood and his terrible defense. This basically meant that 7 votes on brood were guaranteed and he was going to die (a last minute cop claim might have changed this but I'm not sure because brood probably screwed himself over too much for it to be taken seriously). This meant mufaa ended up putting a meaningless vote on someone he thought was town. Why not push for someone else, someone who you thought was mafia?
Ok now on to my own reads
Anacletus:
I'm only discussing day2 on because i already discussed his day 1 play in my earlier posts. Day 2 he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2012 07:40 Anacletus wrote:Okay - so just to finalize my defense I'll be referencing this document austinmcc was awesome enough to post: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnX9O6cujxVmdFlvZkdqR1g0Qlh3d2dSaENrdW9DblE#gid=0Noticing the initial votes there are 5 people who didn't vote for me: austinmcc, Mufaa, Jailbreaker, Crossfire99, and Unforgiven_ve. austinmcc: I find his posts extremely town-oriented and the fact the he voted BKE and stuck with it through without bandwagoning seems very credible and I doubt that mafia would be so aggressive in posting, so I find him clean. Mufaa: I don't like how very early on his posts contained no assertions of mafia. I felt like he was just trying to stay clean and not put any pressure on himself until the very end of the day in which he voted for BKE. I also find his defense of me very fishy in that "Ana is probably just town" sort of thing. Jailbreaker: Dead/town Crossfire99: I don't find him suspicious for voting for me and sticking with his vote. Unforgiven_ve: I am not going to make a judgement at this time on his posting, although he raises my suspicions as well. My reasoning for bringing up the initial votes is because well - I know that: ShaioPi, Jailbreaker, BKE, and myself aren't mafia. That leaves 9 people left - with 4 being mafia. My synopsis of what happened day 1 was that the mafia began reasoning that I was of no use to the town so they abandoned my band wagon to try and hang someone more useful to the town. So my suspicions are of those who switched votes from me to BKE. My biggest suspicions lie with BioSC and FirmTofu - I truly believe them to be mafia and would like for one of them to get hung today, and here is my reasoning why: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707¤tpage=10#190This post by Tofu not only distracts from any points made against BioSC but further asserts cases made against me and darkfire - and again my logic being that I know that I am not mafia so I can assume that the claims made against myself are baseless as his only points seem to be based off of what darkfire is saying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707¤tpage=10#183BioSC also makes excruciatingly similar posts to Tofu - it's almost as if they are working together! And my biggest reasoning to vote for them is because of how they both switched from my band wagon vote to vote for BKE after several times trying to seal a vote for me. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707¤tpage=17#326My opinions on fluff posts using "we" in town situations are also pretty revealing with one's alignment. ##Vote BioSCHere's my vote - I strongly urge you guys to vote with me on this as I truly believe my synopsis to be accurate. On May 14 2012 20:49 Anacletus wrote:You're not even refuting or countering any of my points with validations for your actions anymore: Show nested quote +Again, I've stated my reason for switching votes. Since you can't be bothered looking it up, here it is: I've stated several times that I am not voting for you solely based on your reasoning for changing votes. Make a case against someone who is playing scummy, like we told you about 5 times. You're pretty condescending for someone who doesn't address any of the points I've made against them, but instead creates round-about posts that pretty aggressive. I haven't tied you to anyone. You've tried to tie me to darkfire several times. Something YOU have failed to do so far in your case against me. We can't lynch more than one person per day so I'm not aiming for a complete mafia call out - I am just convinced that you are mafia. I've also said several times that I believe that FirmTofu is mafia as well based on your posting similarities. But I guess you overlooked that. Honestly, if you ARE town, I don't even think you know why you are making a case against me. Got me there! Wait, not really, try reading my last couple of posts. If you are mafia, then the obvious reason would be to get a ball rolling on someone who's been vocal in the thread, so to make it "easier" to garner votes towards me. So your defense now is: "I'M NOT MAFIA, HE'S MAFIA"? Let's say the town DOES finally decide to hang me, you don't think I'll end the day with someone like "Okay, once you hang me go after BioSC and FirmTofu"? I feel like your strategy is pretty near-sighted for being a mafia. Your cute plan of trying to get whoever ShiaoPi was fingering more imaginative.
+ Show Spoiler + On May 13 2012 12:34 Anacletus wrote:
I actually think that it may have been a mafia tactic to off someone who was NOT on the right track to make us think exactly what you are saying.
Maybe you're mafia trying to start this trend? On May 14 2012 11:16 Anacletus wrote:
This is very cute.
This is exactly what I am talking about man. You're playing exactly like mafia would. Of course the mafia wouldn't kill someone who was suspecting mafia - they would lynch someone who was pointing fingers at another townie and then after the killing they would bring up "Oh, this person_X thought Person_Y was mafia and Person_X was killed, that must mean Person_Y is mafia too and was killed for the suspicions!"
I'm even more deeply convinced that you are mafia now.
On May 14 2012 12:16 Anacletus wrote:
And of COURSE I bring up the fact that you're trying to denote hanging correlations with who the hanged thought was guilty, it's pretty standard mafia play. I'm convinced that you're mafia and you're voting for me because I think you're mafia? Cute reasoning, my vote isn't a counter to you voting for me on day 1, this is me being convinced that you are mafia.
Like I have mentioned earlier. We have no idea how mafia is going to play. All we have is everyone's posts. Mafia can play anyway they want, they don't have to play the way we want them to play. I think you are posting that stuff and are arguing so vehemently for it because you want us to assume mafia is playing one way but really playing another way.
Anacletus will be getting my vote day 3.
Now I just realized this, while looking at Anacletus, but you Austin have had suspicions of him since day 1. You then post this case on Brood, which saves Anac, but you still say you are suspicious of Anac. (+ Show Spoiler + On May 11 2012 22:38 austinmcc wrote:My thoughts on Anacletus: His play does not feel like good townie play. I brought that up earlier, we've all discussed it by now, and I think we all seem to come to the same conclusion. While I would support a lynch of Anacletus, I think we have better targets. I'll look through his responses more today, but for now I would prefer to look elsewhere, and see how Anacletus continues to play. Right now, "not good townie play" is my read, but I'm not convinced that his play is scummy and not just bad townie play. However, we've got a quarter of D1 left, and I want to throw this case out and push it a little, see what comes of it. My top scum read: BroodKingEXE. BroodKingEXE filter - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707&user=233869Skip 2/3 of the first page. It's pregame. He's active, vocal, chatting a lot with everyone in the pregame. Doesn't really mean anything. First posts: + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 12:53 BroodKingEXE wrote:
/confirm
Lynching lurkers in the early game not a good idea. My reasoning is that people need to be able to post before we persecute them. Something to think about lurkers, Mafia will try to lurk, but their posts will have more intent behind each one. Why? Every post they make is going to push its own idea of an agenda, but the more they post the more the idea could be misinterpreted. Before we lynch a lurker let's look at the intent of the post: a Mafia agenda push or a helpful Townie post. On May 10 2012 13:18 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Not true, lynching an inactive is a waste. Scum wants us to not lynch them. We can call lurkers out, and they have to respond. They don't respond, we start looking at them. Lynching, because they are lurkers is stupid. On May 10 2012 13:48 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again ><
I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post.
What are you implying here? We should wait for everyone to post before coming to conclusions? That seems scummy to me, we should be analyzing peoples posts right now. You just created a reason for you not to post. Convince your not scum.
##Vote: Firm Tofu These aren't entirely incompatible. Lynching lurkers bad, pressuring them good, let people post before we jump to conclusions. That seems townie, fine and dandy, but then he fires off the very first vote of the game on FirmTofu. Why? Because FirmTofu posted + Show Spoiler + On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again ><
I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post. Look at the bolded part of Broodking's first post. Now back to me. Now back to the bolded part of FirmTofu's post. Now back to me. Anything? That's the same exact thought process. And yet when FirmTofu vocalizes that, Broodking fires off the first vote of the game. I still don't agree with that vote at all, even if it was just to "pressure" someone, because there's absolutely no grounds for voting someone because they express a thought you just expressed slightly earlier. From then on out, it's a series of one-liner and response posts, but never really DOING anything. Last night (eastern time), BroodKing had one of the longest filters, and yet the only substantive post was him voting FirmTofu off the bat. For example: + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 03:30 BroodKingEXE wrote:
You can withhold your vote but you still need to scum hunt. On May 11 2012 04:01 BroodKingEXE wrote:
This post makes sense, Anacletus' play has been pretty wierd. I need to hear a response from him before I vote though.
This line stood out to me. BroodKing threw out of FIRST vote of the game on Tofu, before there was play to analyze and before Tofu responded to anything. Why does he need a response now to vote? After that, he starts giving responses to other people, specifically ShiaoPi's reads, but doesn't really add anything of substance. scummy+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 04:05 BroodKingEXE wrote:@Hyaach Why did you put your vote on Ancletus? You had just as much reasoning as him. That is none. Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 04:33 BroodKingEXE wrote:
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!! ShiaoPi are you defending Hyaach? A null read? He has provided zero evidence for his vote. Your whole list is terrible, it provides nothing more than a bunch "I'm leaning town, but you can never be sure reads". I smell a scumwagon. Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 05:38 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Your big post brings up a list of null reads. Its misleading due to its size when its content is a bunch of reiteration of events. Scum will make posts like this to make themselves seem useful. If you actually read your reasoning for voting for anacletus it is: he was not eager, a post lacking logic, and a bandwagon. The first two could be townie mistakes and bandwagons aren't very effective when people have strong objections to the canidate. On the other hand, you have voted with the person you first thought was scum and had dropped your suspicions based on...nothing. Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 09:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Just needed explanation for your vote/post. This canidate seems really rushed though, people haven't looked at his latest posts for signs of scumminess. I agree that his past posts are suspicious, but we need to look at his current posts. Too much like a wagon for me to vote for him yet. Note that at this point, ShiaoPi has just thrown out the first real list of reads we had from anyone. BroodKing posts a couple times concerning the list, but doesn't really add anything. While he gets information out of ShiaoPi, he doesn't really provide any himself. At no point in those posts does he agree with a read or disagree with a read, rather, he simply acknowledges that reads were made and ShiaoPi voted. This is also the first point we begin to move AWAY from the Anacletus discussion (which has run its course at this point), and BroodKing continues to ask for information based on ShiaoPi's vote for Anacletus. Finally, compare his filter from this game with his filter from Newbie VIII, where he was town. + Show Spoiler + There are some posts in a similar style to his posts here, but a LOT of @x and @y, what do you guys think about z. Lots of longer discussions, paragraphs, lists. SOME of that is because he was the lynch target D1 and so had to be active and defend himself. But his townie posts from VIII feel more robust and they contribute, whereas his posts so far in XIII do not. ------------------------------- Anacletus's play still feels more bad than scummy. I would like to let him live for now, and see if he starts to really contribute. Right now he has 0 town cred, so if he's mafia he can't actively muck up town discussion. If we back off the pressure, MAYBE he mounts a decent defense and provides some good reads, because...he's got to do that to get any cred back. If not? We lynch him later, or we see if we can get any information N1 from blue roles that push us forward. Compared to Anacletus though, BroodKingEXE looks actively scummy. So far he hasn't contributed anything of note except the first vote of the game, which made little sense. He's supports getting responses before voting, but then votes without a response from FirmTofu. He wants scumhunting and reasoning, but has provided none. Again, I'm not opposed to an Anacletus lynch, but I would prefer to lynch the player that seems scummiest, which is BroodKing. ##Vote BroodKingEXE
##FOS: AnacletusDahdum, I'm especially interested in hearing your thoughts on this, as you read BroodKing to be scummy as well. I didn't really notice him until I looked through all the filters last night and realized he was my best scumread. Do you agree with my reasoning? Did you have different reasoning? On May 13 2012 07:41 austinmcc wrote:
Assorted thoughts:
I'm still suspicious of Anac. More and more people seem to be swinging towards bad townie play. I'd like to see more contributions from you Anac, because at this point I'm still unconvinced. I may have helped save you from a lynch AND given you a story to hide behind.
I'm currently not really suspicious of anyone for "wagoning." When I initially posted on Anac and Brood, I legitimately felt that Anac was quite possibly townie, and Brood looked scummy. I stand by those reads. To the extent that you guys think those reads were sensible, then agreeing with them is NOT scummy play (in my mind). To me, I'm actually more suspicious of those whose votes didn't go Anac --> Brood.
[QUOTE] On May 14 2012 23:29 austinmcc wrote:Looks like mother's day killed discussion. As of right now, I've got a few people that I'd love to see post more. Mufaa, Unforgiven, Hyaach, Firm. I've got weak townie reads on some of you, but there's just not enough there to go on. Please try and get some substantive posting in today. Inactivity is killing us (and i've contributed), so we've got to try and turn this around. Also interested in hearing more from Dahdum and BioSC. You guys keep calling each other out, but haven't drummed up that much interest from the rest of us it seems. Can either of you really put something good together on the other, why you think they might be scummy beyond just OMGUS? Either one of you could have something there, but I don't find anything in your filters all that convincing.
Asking for more from others doesn't really give you anything from me, so here's what I've got to contribute. Right now my top read, and my vote, are on DarkfireHis D1 filter is some general talk about "bandwagoning" and pronouns. Votes Anac because he seems scummiest, but doesn't really give much of his own read. Just kind of going along with where votes were falling at the time. He pops in during the Anac/Brood discussion only to give the one post that everyone seems to find suspicious: + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 06:17 Darkfirex5 wrote:
I'd suggest filtering BKEXE's posts. From what I'm reading of what he has posted, there isnt anying that makes me want to switch the bandwagon onto him (fairly) last minute. There isnt enough posts from him to make the acusation he is more mafia than that of Anacletus. I dislike this massive wagon switch because instead of going with the safest mafia guess, we switch it last minute to someone i think we need more posts from to prove he is mafia. Dark, I need to really hear some defense of this statement from you. What made Anac the safest mafia guess? What reasons did you really have for voting him? You repeat this argument after D1, lamenting why nobody listened to you. Well, what should we have listened to? Give us a decent reason you voted Anac and didn't vote Brood. Brood's filter was one of the longer ones in the game at that point, as we've pointed out, and, in fact, Brood's filter during D1 was longer than yours is this entire game so far. If his filter wasn't long enough to give you evidence he was scum, your filter really isn't long enough to convince me that you're town. The only response you've given to anyone's suspicions on you so far is [quote]The reason i like to stay cautious is because when things start happening fast like at the end of day one, we may end up switching the bandwagon and lynching a townie, inthis case the cop. I also think suspicions on people are much different then placing a vote. By me saying im suspicious of people means okay, something doesnt seem right but i need more evidence for me to want to put a vote on them to be lynched. The reason i kept the slight defense on Anacletus was becuase it was still day 1 and its hard to decide on the lynching. I ended up voting on him anyway becuase he seemed more scummy than EXE and i didnt like risking the vote on EXE before more evidence was obtained from/for him to prove he was scummy. So i went with the person who seemed the scummiest at the time, Anacletus. This feels like really weak reasoning. I maintain that there wasn't much of a case on Anac, and there was a decent case on Brood. I don't know why you had enough evidence on Anac but not on Brood. You've never really clearly explained your choices, either during D1 or in response to people calling you out. And they have. Here's ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 10:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I want to focus a bit on darkfirex5: If you read through his filter, you immediately see that there is simply a lot of weak halfcases he starts against several people, these include: Anacletus (where his vote ends up), BioSC, FirmTofu and dahdum. His posts are few and mostly within the context of the Anacletus discussion, in which he seemingly takes a diverting role with his suspicions. In regards to BKE he writes the following: + Show Spoiler +
I'd suggest filtering BKEXE's posts. From what I'm reading of what he has posted, there isnt anying that makes me want to switch the bandwagon onto him (fairly) last minute. There isnt enough posts from him to make the acusation he is more mafia than that of Anacletus. I dislike this massive wagon switch because instead of going with the safest mafia guess, we switch it last minute to someone i think we need more posts from to prove he is mafia.
I bolded the part which seemed weird to me. I could agree with his reasoning on not wanting to switch before, but BKE was actually one of the more active players so it seems like a sentence without anything backing it up. Generally speaking he is acting scummy as in non-comittal to his reads/suspicions and inactivity. Keep your eyes on him. and + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 20:36 ShiaoPi wrote:Darkfirex5 also posted the following: + Show Spoiler +I guess no one listened to me about the switch of the bandwagon with no solid evidence compared to the "safer" bet with Anacletus, I'll be going over the people who switch vote, i gtg for now but i believe i saw a mafia group bandwagoning to get it started. <-- ill be looking into that Which means he is totally ignoring my post about him. Just a general statement of regret and a somehow flawed logic of a "safer bet". I believe we have quite established that Anacletus can easily be lynched later if the need arises. Anyone else up for pressuring him as well? Here's me: + Show Spoiler +Darkfire. Others have already mentioned this. As votes are coming in on Anac, says it's a "weak bandwagon," with weak reasoning behind it. An hour and a half later, drops his vote on Anac. Now finds Anac scummiest. Then he defends Brood, saying he wants "more posts" from one of the more active players at that point and time (based purely on filter length). At night, we get this: + Show Spoiler +On May 12 2012 11:32 Darkfirex5 wrote:
I guess no one listened to me about the switch of the bandwagon with no solid evidence compared to the "safer" bet with Anacletus, I'll be going over the people who switch vote, i gtg for now but i believe i saw a mafia group bandwagoning to get it started. <-- ill be looking into that I have no idea what to make of that. He didn't think anac was scum until anac's self-vote, then decided anac was the safest/safer lynch? Complains about no solid evidence on Brood, but again, I think the evidence DID look bad for Brood. And if it didn't, what good evidence was there on Anac? Also, just very, very focused on bandwagoning in general, mentioning it a LOT. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and I still believe that at the end of D1, Brood looked the scummiest. After ShiaoPi gets killed, here's Darkfire - [QUOTE] On May 13 2012 12:30 Darkfirex5 wrote:well now we have a lot to work with at least, i guess ShiaoPi was onto something, time to avenge him :D[/QUOTE] Another unhelpful post after an event (Just like his "safer" bet comment after D1). Without any recognition that one of ShiaoPi's main reads was him. Shiao had called out Darkfire twice, I'd chimed in, and Dark still hasn't responded to any of that. While he recently claims to have been trying to look into Mufaa and Dahdum, there's nothing there. His looking into Mufaa is just quoting a post from Shiao (without ever answering Shiao's questions about himself). I don't see him "looking into" dahdum at all, except after dahdum calls him out on typoing Unforgiven's name into a post instead of Anac. There really just doesn't seem to be anything in his posts at all. There's a lack of unhelpful reads. Multiple UNhelpful posts (after D1 and N1). A complete lack of response to Shiao and my concerns about him. Right now Darkfire, you're my number one scum read, and you get my vote. ##Vote: Darkfirex5[/QUOTE]
Right now I have Austin and Anacletus as 2/3 scum.
Hmmm, curiously I just noticed in your last post, you leave out Anacletus and Bio in your reads. Why? Are they your scumbuddies?
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+ Show Spoiler + On May 16 2012 06:05 austinmcc wrote:Looks like I won't be back before the deadline, so I'll just parrot what everyone else is saying and note that I'm still suspicious of Anac, despite arguing against a vote on him D1. What really sticks out to me is this post - Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 00:09 Anacletus wrote:
I've played mafia before. That being said nothing that I say is guaranteed so playing one playstyle will probably let them metagame us. I was only throwing out my 2 cents. Also, maybe I'm metagaming knowing mafia will read this.
The hole goes deeper. I alluded to it D1, + Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 00:39 austinmcc wrote:Anacletus, why, specifically, did you vote Tofu? All you've said is: In your original vote. But you didn't tell us what you found suspicious. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:41 Anacletus wrote:
I doubt that the mafia would try to be hyper-aggressive day 1. I think that the people who aren't voting are suspicious. I think it makes more sense for the mafia to try and be passive in voting yet vocal in chat to try and rule who otherw vote for and keep their hands clean. Say you think this, why vote Tofu? He posted once, 40 minutes into the game, and hasn't been active. That's not vocal in chat. His activity so far this game doesn't fit the pattern that you believe to be scummy. Town's job isn't to care about what gameplan mafia may or may not have. Our job is to hunt scum. To me, your vote on Tofu, especially as it runs against your own reasoning, looks scummy or newbie townish. Yet you say you've played games elsewhere before. , but I didn't pressure that point. I still don't like him as a lynch candidate over others, but the fact that he came out and said he was new keeps me unsure about absolutely branding him as just playing poorly as town early on. I don't know whether to slot Anac in as the third mafia, whether to think maybe dahdum and BioSC were just looking to make weak cases on each other and gain town cred if one was lynched and flipped scum, or whether there's another third mafia member out there. Relatively confident in those other two reads, and I can't really adopt some plan of "Assume everyone I read as scum is town," because that's just too confusing. I'll post more when I get enough free time and a computer, but it will be after the deadline. If nothing else, should I be the nightkill, hopefully some of this will be helpful.
Now he conveniently states that he is still suspicious of Anac, but not suspicious enough to warrant a vote. Hmmm? I definitely think you are trying to defend your scumbuddy, but still trying to keep your hands clean if he is lynched over your wishes by saying you were still suspicious.
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