| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
khaydarin9
Australia423 Posts
On May 07 2012 21:30 Mioraka wrote: That is like saying the most simple solution to prostitution is "men should just be less horny". It is against reality and human nature. Every time I think I've found the worst metaphor or analogy in TL (Ray Charles of eSports wtf T_T), there always seems to be an even more terrible one waiting around the corner. | ||
|
FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:08 Dosey wrote: He used a bad example. Think of it more like a football team is down 40-10 on their own 2 yd line with 2 timeouts and 40 seconds left. Instead of playing it out they do a quick run play (essentially a kneel) and let time run out. Do you fault them in this situation for not using up all their timeouts and playing it down to the last play even though they had no chance? That's still not a consistent analogy. Kneeling or doing a run play in the last 2 minutes when down 10-40 is like leaving a game of SC2 when you're down 50 supply to 180 rather than waiting for all your buildings to die. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:21 QuanticCinergy wrote: I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train. Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career. As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved. Glad to see someone on the inside confirm that the witch hints are counter productive. Certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. | ||
|
crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:05 Detwiler wrote: Sigh... How stupid can people be? I mean really? Take the OP for example. Talking about hurting esports. Or this guy im replying to that thinks we should let thrown games and calling people niggers and gooks just slide because its no big deal. Both apparently want to "grow" esports. Yet I have this feeling that they are out of touch with reality. Because you cant grow the sport while at the same time allowing things like this to happen.Look at korea for example were they have company's like samsung nokia and pepsi are sponsoring teams. Does anyone think pepsi will attach their brand to some one who calls people niggers over their stream? Anyone? Once you get to a certain point of growth you enter the big leagues were like it or not there are certain lines of conduct that cannot be crossed. Period. Full stop. End of conversation. Now if you want to keep the whole scene so small that shit like that doesnt matter thats fine. Thats what the fight game community wants and thats 100% ok. But you cant act like you want esports to grow while at the same time condoning the behavior of nani/orb/destiny the two thing arent compatible. This is the problem that bugs me and the OP and other like-minded posters. You divide the issue into two options; either we let racism slide, or we email the sponsors. There is a middle ground in which you still punish the person for perceived racism by contacting their team. The team will listen. You appear to be under the impression for whatever reason that if you don't contact the sponsors, the team won't do anything, but that isn't the case. You just never gave Quantic a chance to respond on their own. | ||
|
Kurr
Canada2338 Posts
A witch hunt would be going after Sheth if he BM'ed someone (non-racist BM) one time. All the people involved had multiple incidents with their behavior, and racism and/or match throwing are both actions that deserve no pity. | ||
|
Shafanhow
United States47 Posts
On May 07 2012 22:44 Dosey wrote: You are going to eventually force an extreme response out of the pros. You are going to alienate them by putting them on this straight edge pedestal and there will be no turning back. Mics on streams will go silent and you will only get music at best(it's only a matter of time before someone finds a pros music offensive), forums will go private-- no longer will you be able to see the pros post and talk to each other/with you on the forums, they will stop interacting with their viewers, fan games will cease, and it will eventually get to the point where they are now "Hollywood Celebrity" status and the only actual interaction you will get is during a Q&A session at a tournament. Is that what you really want? Yes, yes and tidal waves and earthquakes, dogs and cats living together, it'll be anarchy! Come on, Orb and destiny used the N word, that's the problem, period. TLO will never have this problem, neither will Ncontrol or Sheth, the list goes on and on. Eventually streamers will learn what behaviour is appropriate and what isn't but the community as a whole is gonna just keep growing like a weed. This is all to the good. | ||
|
Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:13 tripp6sic6 wrote: The obvious difference being that they had a football game to watch in the first place. It would be more like you are out of contention and decide to punt on 1st down all game. That's not acceptable in football and shouldn't be acceptable in pro SC2. You didn't get to see Nani or Nestea play in their first three losses? You didn't see how defeated they already were? To expect them to play their hearts out on a game of no consequence on a national stage is just cruel. We don't force the last 10 players out before the bubble to play their own final table for no reason do we? The losers in the AFC/NFC finals dont play each other for the "not-so-super bowl" do they? | ||
|
TrippSC2
United States209 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:21 QuanticCinergy wrote: I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train. Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career. As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved. I agree very much with this statement, if it is genuine (and I believe it is). The heart of the issue in my opinion is that all teams don't take this same approach. It's more important to maintain good PR and attempt to cover up the issue than address it. In my opinion, if this were the uniform approach of all teams, there would be no contacting sponsors. No one contacts Coors when an NFL player is arrested, because they know the league will fine/suspend said player. (I'm aware that this example isn't 100% applicable, but the principle is valid.) | ||
|
Bart
494 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:21 QuanticCinergy wrote: I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train. Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career. As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved. While you say that you have common values when it comes to discrimination and equality you knew what you were getting into when you selected Destiny to be on your team yet you said nothing about any actions to address his behaviour during his tenure in Quantic. Although it may seem counter-intuitive to you now that you have to be more selective in choosing players to your team I think it is better that teams now take into consideration the players moral and behaviour as well as their skill in order for them to be good role models to those impresionable ones who grow up watching Esports as their main entertainment. | ||
|
FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:21 QuanticCinergy wrote: I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train. Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career. As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved. I understand where you're coming from. But at the same time, your brand is defined by your most important asset - your talent. And by choosing to have Destiny and Naniwa on your team you are endorsing their actions. Particularly Destiny's nonchalance towards racism - not his actual remarks but his follow-up on public forums where he refuses to apologize. Do you feel that sponsors should be made aware of decisions? If your team endorses this behaviour, I personally believe that sponsors should find other teams with individuals that are more deserving of sponsorship. I don't necessarily agree with Destiny being removed from the team but I do not think that sponsors being made aware of the situation is necessarily an incorrect approach. They want to make sponsorship decisions based on as much data as possible - and actions such as what happened last week are public domain and are available to them anyway. | ||
|
TrippSC2
United States209 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:30 Dosey wrote: You didn't get to see Nani or Nestea play in their first three losses? You didn't see how defeated they already were? To expect them to play their hearts out on a game of no consequence on a national stage is just cruel. We don't force the last 10 players out before the bubble to play their own final table for no reason do we? The losers in the AFC/NFC finals dont play each other for the "not-so-super bowl" do they? Again, your example is not valid. First, there is a difference between not playing to your fullest and not giving anything to the fans who view the event. Second, there ARE situations in the NFL where a team has no chance to win a Super Bowl and has to play it out anyway. If you are eliminated from contention in game 14 of a 16 game season, you still can't punt the ball on first down for games 15 and 16. That's still not OK. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:00 Tyree wrote: Easily the best post. In what other community, even on the internet, do you see this? How often does anyone waltz into a movie forum and sees any of this? What about sports? Whens the last time you read topics regarding football, basketball or any other sport that had any of these issues? Why do we have to educate people, and not just people but YOUNG people of today about things a large number of people in the west learned in the 1960's? How can so many gamers be for technology, science, overwhelmingly atheist and progressive and yet in this one field, we just flat out fail in every conceivable way? The people decrying the witch hunt aren't saying that racism is acceptable, and we aren't saying that Destiny should be allowed to use racist slurs on stream. We're saying there shouldn't be an angry mob tryin to decide what the punishment should be and emailing sponsors. | ||
|
Delwack
123 Posts
I want to make one point clear: If the community cannot clean up it's own act and drives away sponsors, it is the fault of the community for tolerating the public figures that caused controversy, not the people who wish to express their opinions. Not writing teams and sponsors because it can 'potentially hurt the greater esports' is in my opinion insane. Do we put up with anything just because we want to see SC2 grow, regardless of the actions taken by the public figures that represent the community? Even if emailing sponsors over these controversies hurts some organizations (and SC2/Esports) in the short run, I think in the longer it'll help the scene by making it more professional, more mature, and more acceptable to a general audience by pressuring unacceptable elements from the public parts of the scene. I also believe SC2 as a scene can demonstrate that we are making progress in cleaning up our act. Remember the recent controversy surrounding the fighting game scene recently with respect to sexism and racism? My understanding of that was such incidents occurred because the culture there is more accepting of that kind of thing. You know what drives sponsors away faster than single incidents like the one we see in SC2? A culture like the fighting game community that tacitly accepts and weaves those values into their community. I think the problems here lie more with the teams and other SC2 professional organizations. Public figures will always be subject to much scrutiny and held to a higher standard. Anyone backing those public figures (in this case, casters and players) will have to accept the way those public figures behave in the public sphere. Ultimately, it is up to the teams to make the appropriate decisions. 1) The teams and organizations should do their due diligence with respect to the people that they hire Just as with any other job interview, review of an employee/contract worker's past history should be done. This is made easier in that the SC2 and esports community in general is fairly tight knit right now. It's not hard to get a good feel for people, and their past. Sure, things won't necessarily be perfect (e.g. orb's case was rather obscure), but Naniwa and Destiny both have had histories where teams understood the risk they were taking when signing their players. That isn't to say that they shouldn't hire them, but if they do.... 2) The teams and organizations set the standard for what is acceptable and unacceptable from their players, casters, and other public figures. The teams are the one that pay the salaries and bills at the end of the day. Players are contracted to their teams, and are in essence either employees or contract workers. The teams are essentially their 'boss'. The team management are the ones that set the ethical standard for what is acceptable and unacceptable, and as with any other organization that faces the public it is the organizational management that has a responsibility for going over with public figures how they should act. You see this all the time in any public-facing arm of an organization: retail sales training, customer service representative training, salesman and account management training, broadcasting training, etc. If the teams fail to set those standards appropriately, the community will respond to where it thinks it should be set. Even when signing players and casters with 'problem' histories, teams can set the standard and work with their players to make sure they operate within the appropriate framework. I think Naniwa and Quantic has been a pretty good example of how this works out well in practice. The only issue being Quantic wasn't able to help Naniwa until after the incident. Ideally Quantic would have been able to change Naniwa's attitude before anything as drastic happened. 3) As public figures, all SC2 teams and organizations must be conscious of their reputations at all times, and respond to developing issues quickly. This may be unreasonable to some degree given staff limitations given how quickly these situations develop sometimes, but teams again could help limit bad PR by trying to deal with problems as best they can in real-time. Sometimes, simple statements like 'we are looking into this issue now, and are gathering all the facts needed to come to an appropriate decision. We ask for your patience while we work through this issue' is enough to give many people pause before talking to sponsors and because it demonstrates the issue is being taken seriously, and that action is forthcoming. Part of the reason people went to Quantic's sponsors is because there was general consensus that Quantic did not believe this was something that they should be worried about. I think people felt that emailing Quantic was a dead end. People are generally reasonable and a proactive approach is often significantly better than a reactive one. For teams, this will sometimes be as simple as explaining all sides of a story, and explaining how something done in the past fits in the context of today. Sometimes it means issuing an apology proactively. Sometimes it may mean terminating a player or caster before things get out of hand. If the professional organizations within the community self-polices, the problems ultimately solve themselves. Conclusion I don't necessarily think that the community policing itself right now through these 'witch hunts' is necessarily inappropriate, but I also believe there are much better ways to handle it. I don't think the solution is to tell the community to 'let these things slide', in the hopes that they somehow fix themselves. I think the solution lies with the teams and other organizations. They set the standard, and have much more power to either outright preempt these situations, or else do a better job of communicating and resolving them in a timely manner. As the community's confidence in teams and organizations to self-police grows, these issues will become further and fewer between and the community will take to talking to the teams about these issues (instead of sponsors) due to the increased level of trust and responsiveness from these organizations. | ||
|
Sylverin
United States480 Posts
On May 07 2012 22:57 Jojo131 wrote: Perhaps pros should just stop doing any form of fan service, lest they lose control of themselves and accidentally offend people. Sadly it may come to that I mean I am sure you in another country as well as the others in their respective ones all have different cultures. Someone will always be offended. | ||
|
crocodile
United States615 Posts
| ||
|
FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:29 Doodsmack wrote: Glad to see someone on the inside confirm that the witch hints are counter productive. Certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. And others, such as ToD, have publicly condemned what Destiny said too. What's your point? Of course the team owner and CEO of the team Destiny was on is not going to like the negative publicity. You really thought otherwise? | ||
|
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
Not sure about the crowd who thinks they are protecting esports. I think they are just factually wrong. SC2 will rise or fail on its own merit. Destiny's racial slurs aren't turning away the masses. It's the fact that they don't understand what's going on. IF SC2 becomes mainstream the stakeholders will make sure it's cleaned up very fast. | ||
|
Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
| ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:32 FairForever wrote: I understand where you're coming from. But at the same time, your brand is defined by your most important asset - your talent. And by choosing to have Destiny and Naniwa on your team you are endorsing their actions. Particularly Destiny's nonchalance towards racism - not his actual remarks but his follow-up on public forums where he refuses to apologize Do you feel that sponsors should be made aware of decisions? If your team endorses this behaviour, I personally believe that sponsors should find other teams with individuals that are more deserving of sponsorship. I don't necessarily agree with Destiny being removed from the team but I do not think that sponsors being made aware of the situation is necessarily an incorrect approach. They want to make sponsorship decisions based on as much data as possible - and actions such as what happened last week are public domain and are available to them anyway. There's a difference between innocently "informing" sponsors of something they "already know about" and threatening to boycott their product before giving Quantic a chance to respond to the situation. | ||
|
FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:36 hypercube wrote: I have no problem with people participating in these if they are legitimately upset. However some do it for the sole reason that they want to hurt someone, or to feel powerful. They also think it's impossible to see their true motivation or it somehow doesn't matter if they are on the "right side". Nothing could be further from the truth. Not sure about the crowd who thinks they are protecting esports. I think they are just factually wrong. SC2 will rise or fail on its own merit. Destiny's racial slurs aren't turning away the masses. It's the fact that they don't understand what's going on. IF SC2 becomes mainstream the stakeholders will make sure it's cleaned up very fast. I do agree - it's clear that some people simply don't like Naniwa/Destiny. But I think there are others who really think that this is unacceptable. The words used by Destiny in particular were hurtful to minorities, of which I am one. For those who think it's ridiculous to e-mail sponsors, think about the years of pain that many of us (or our parents/grandparents, in my case) had to go through with such words. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 League of Legends Counter-Strike Heroes of the Storm Other Games summit1g4492 Grubby3240 FrodaN1682 Liquid`RaSZi1347 Beastyqt1090 RotterdaM313 Pyrionflax198 C9.Mang0147 ArmadaUGS139 QueenE132 Hui .122 Trikslyr91 IndyStarCraft  62ZombieGrub62 NarutO  31kogeT2 |
|
LiuLi Cup
Serral vs MaNa
Spirit vs herO
Master's Coliseum
herO vs Astrea
Reynor vs Spirit
Korean StarCraft League
Master's Coliseum
Zoun vs MaxPax
Serral vs GuMiho
Red Clan Cup
Master's Coliseum
OSC
OlimoLeague
LiuLi Cup
SKillous vs Solar
MaxPax vs SHIN
OSC
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
