On April 20 2012 23:50 Aunvilgod wrote: Could maybe someone explain to me WHY BW is more interesting/challenging than SCII. As far as I know the differences are not that big. Just because the players are not very good the game is not necessarily bad.
Note that I think the rumor about lower skillcap of SCII is crap. Players still die to bad multitasking...
I think it's mostly people that have some sort of bitterness toward sc2, a lack of experience with sc2, or are just uninformed. The games are different, so yeah, not everyone is going to like both, but they require very similar skill sets and are a lot more similar than angry elitists make them out to be.
Nope, BW is just better to watch, as both more interesting to watch then chess or poker. There is a reason why BW have casual fans (who don't play videogames), and sc2 fans are all playing or have played sc2.
For me is: - graphical style is better (mature, no stupid toyish buildings) - units not clumping in one ball (that just look better) - better balance, and not only race balance, but also balance of opportunities and abilities (no stupid crap like "1 vortex with archons and zerg is dead, but without it protoss is dead") - as a result of previous one - game have more diversity and more dynamic. - level of play. No one in sc2 can multitask nearly as good as Bisu. - no tournaments overloading. 1 OSL, 1 MSL, 1 Proleague. Every game counts. - and the History, that lead to Stories and Drama, and sometimes Comedy. Just compare your usual preview\recap from gstl and preview\recap from proleague.
You can explain that over and over again and SC2 fans WON'T listen.
They don't want to believe that their game, when compared to BW, is lacking so much. What happens is a clicle where we explain why we believe which one is superior, they find themselves trapped then they spit out the word elitism as a last defence measure.
Rather than trying to explain why BW is better, this thread should be used to discuss what the fuck is gonna happen now. I sincerely believe that TBLS will fall into the common top tier SC2 pros because SC2 will crop out what makes a god from what makes a great pro.
Watching Bisu dropping games to MC would be eye bleeding. :/
ok i am a SC2 fan and i'll try and give my point of view without resorting to the word elitism.
Graphical Style is more mature- SC2 is higher quality that is fact, and a graphical style is always going to be a subjective thing as whether you like it or you don't is going to colour your opinion. I mean Modern Art looks like insanity with a paintbrush to me but to others it is a brilliant expression of art, both are true from a point of view but neither can be objectively "Better" than the other.
the units clumping AI - admittedly can be a problem but in fairness you guys had the dragoon AI which was a mind of its own was it not? if so which extreme is better is again going to be an opinion but i'll put my hands up and admit it is far from perfect.
Better Balance- SC2 is still in its balancing phase which Brood War has had finished for years, not only that but SC2 has two expansions planned that will alter its balance considerably, add to this that BW is not perfectly balanced either- it is better don't get me wrong but your balance is also dependant on maps as well i believe, this problem will be sorted eventually even if the community has to do it itself and remember the game could have fundamental changes with its expansions that remove these "ability or else" situations.
Diversity and dynamic- this will come with time and experience the brood war of today is not the brood war of release day is it?
Level of Play- i'm not sure what i can say here, on one hand the multi tasking thing could be a player factor in which case it would only really be fixed by players themselves, but on the other the idea of just because SC2 doesn't need as much multi tasking (no possible disputing that from macro perspective, depends on playstyle for micro) does it necessarily make it worse? and would these gods of BW have excellent multi tasking even in SC2 because no one has truly reached the skill cap of either game and so it doesn't mean that if Bisu switched from BW he all of a sudden lose his ability to multitask he might just redistribute what he multitasks on.
Tournament overloading- well there are a lot of tournaments for SC2 but i'm not sure this idea of 3 tournaments only is the best thing possible, it doesn't help that while "major" tournaments are easily defined by BW community (OSL, MSL, Proleague) there is no real definitive agreement from the SC2 community (personally i'd say GSL, MLG, and Dreamhack but others would say IPL and NASL at least are more important). More Tournaments adds more variety to the Pros you see but consequently you see less of the Pros you love which is acceptable for SC2 i'd say as the true "elite" have yet to be discovered but isn't acceptable to you BW guys who are used to being able to follow an individual's progress.
The History- do i need to say why SC2 doesn't have this but BW does? Really?
Now with that done on to whats happening for the BW guys.
To be honest i'd want you guys to stay but no one can force you to, you have experiences and insights that the newer blood from SC2 (i'm one of those btw if you hadn't already guessed) will never have and you were the foundation of both Starcraft and this community which i both enjoy. i was born in '96 so was 2 when brood war was released so until i picked up sc2 i had no idea it even existed, yet while i enjoy sc2 because i've been there from near the beginning i find it hard to watch the BW stuff but i know that even if i can't apreciate the skills BW players have since ive never played the game, i can still respect them just like i respect the BW vets, you built the community which i now enjoy so thanks for what you have done and good luck with what you will do, be it stay with sc2 or leave.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
fuck this shit I'm not watching proleague if this is true.
of course fantasy switched think of him trying to use bio every game it would be a disaster albeit an amusing one
On April 21 2012 00:42 shaftofpleasure wrote: Broodwar has 12 unit per control group E-Sports has 'unlimited' unit per control group
Broodwar has manual mining E-sports has auto-mining
Broodwar has single building selection E-sports has mulitple building selection
Broodwar has sub-par unit AI E-sports has smart-cast and decent unit AI
E-sports was made to be easy. I don't know why people deny this. For casuals to get into.
SC2 has poor unit design (collosus, hydras, stalkers), no Lan, deathballs, protoss and PVP is broken... nothing is going to be repaired in HOTS. At the moment a 98 game is better than SC", only because blizz wants it.
Stalkers? Really? That's the third-worst unit in SC2?
he plays zerg, has probably played against a lot of blink stalker allins and didn't build infestors to deal with it so he would probably think that blink stalkers are imba (they're really good but at least you need micro unlike colossus...which are even better than microed blink stalkers!)
Good bye everyone. This is the end for me. (please don't judge me, I just have zero interest in following the scene any more with these coming changes)
On April 21 2012 00:29 Thauleris wrote: The reason the SC2 scene is crushing the SC scene is that SC is so incredibly hard to get in to. Virtually no one gets into starcraft these days because they recently started playing SC, so the only way is to get "in" is to watch videos that are all in korean and talk to people who make it plain that they utterly despise you because you come from SC2. That doesn't sound like a recipe for a miracle comeback for the SC scene...
Not really. The reason all of this is happening is because SC2 as a game was designed to appease the crowds => more players => more money => power. As stated by many before, it's the age of the casual gamer. Games are now designed for a growing number of players and an overall younger community. You will also see your precious game replaced by another and yet another game soon enough, I'm sure. As soon as there's one with better graphics and an easier gameplay, the crowd will move on.
Now I have no problem with this crowd of gamers. And I'm happy to know they can enjoy whatever it is they like. I'm also pretty sure nobody hates you because you come from SC2. If someone gets angry it's because you (or the typical casual gamer) will then often proceed to make stupid claims about a game they hardly know anything about or apply a reasoning that is completely alien to us (such as pointing out outdated graphics - the majority of the BW fans will laugh at the word "outdated").
There are reasonable arguments for someone to prefer SC2 over BW (such as the game is more about strategy rather than in-game mechanics) and if these are made, well all I can say to that is: Okay dude, hope you can keep enjoying it. But if you come in and start saying shit about a game you know nothing about, you will get the hatred you deserve - and that is true for pretty much every game or actually anything likeable out there. Personally I prefer to try to persuade the person rather than to flame one, but I can see why someone else wouldn't.
It's when people act violently towards SC2 getting more sponsorships and attention, acting melodramatic about it and then looking down on people who enjoy SC2 as if they were plebians.
It seems as if people are just absolutely incapable of enjoying both games. Brood War has had much more time to develop, and it benefitted from better units in the expansion (Vanilla SC was not very balanced), giving the game much more variety than what SC2 currently has. It might not always be like that, we can't speculate what HoTS or LoTV will do to the game, it may do what Brood War did to SC1 and make it amazing.
When I hear Brood War fans talk about it being much more exciting to watch, with more variety, I absolutely agree. On the other hand I still get excited for players like Nestea and MVP when they win a GSL. The game may have simpler mechanics but it's hardly a reason to look down on people who prefer it, and say that it will never show any level of complexity. It's easy to find people who argued that Total Annihilation was infinitely more complex than Brood War ever was.
The problem is that most of us BW fans aren't just disappointed in the units design but in the AI, the graphics and the user interface... And to change all of these seems highly unlikely, seeing as most of the SC2 fans enjoy these "enhancements".
Anyway, that was not quite my point and I don't wish to argue about that any further. As for the abundant BW elitism, you're right - that happens and I'm not quite okay with it. Still I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with SC2 crushing BW. Also since the BW community is older and smaller, there are many helpful people and an overall better manner than in SC2, at least from my personal experience (also irrelevant to which game will dominate the scene).
On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote: The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by.
you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages.
also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units.
So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm.
Those are all internally consistent opinions.
Though I do like how Jellyfish simultaneously hates SC for not copying BW, and also hates it when it is copying BW.
Also, what the fuck, Fantasy O_O
Two different things. From the metagame standpoint, I don't understand why sc2's gameplay hasn't progressed faster. There's a certain amount of friction that comes from moving into a new game, of course, but I would've expected pro players to innovate faster than they have thus far. Two years is a long time. If I had to guess I'd say it's because the pros play a huge number of tournies, cutting down on their practice time and making it too risky to focus on developing the metagame over mastering the current metagame.
Well, every time one race innovates, all the other races kind of have to work around it, and the first 6 months were wasted on Steppes of War maps and 2rax SCV pushes being standard TvZ for a month and a half. It's definitely a different game now than it was in 2010, or even 2011. PvT, for instance, is a lot less Colossus (yay) and more Zealot/Templar (yay), with Forge Fast Expand being an increasingly standard opening (??). ZvZ has been pretty stagnant, though, no argument there. PvP is only recently gotten to macro games being common, so I'm willing to give that a few months now as long as Mass Colo isn't standard. I saw Mass Colo vs Mass Colo, and it was horrible
From the design standpoint, I wish the dev team would either stop pathologically trying to avoid bw's shadow and accept the starcraft label comes with certain expectations and heritage. HOTS isn't copying bw; the swarm host, viper, (scrapped) warhound, battle hellion are like the cheap chinatown bootlegs of lurker, defiler, etc. Either man up and put the bw units back in, or be creative and think of something new. I just find it disasteful that browder is so indignant about his game being another bw and pulling that kind of stunt.
The Lurker was in SC2 for a long time in the Beta. It got pulled because it simply wasn't working in the new game. The Warhound is a knock-off of the Goliath, but Browder said they'd make it a Goliath if that's what it ended up being (though it's likely to be scrapped, apparently). The swarm host is a unit I'm not thrilled about, but it's not a lurker in any way except that it attacks while burrowed.
In terms of new units, The Replicant was a neat idea that got scrapped. The Shredder was a stupid idea that got scrapped. The Oracle is a legitimately brilliant unit and makes me excited all by itself. And while you can compare a Phoenix to a Corsair, I think of it as a new and fairly cool unit. The Void Ray is new, but kind of enh, and the Brood Lord is a frankly more interesting Guardian. Most of the SC2 units are neat ideas that didn't quite pan out, honestly. Except the Collosus (potentially good idea, terrible execution) and the Thor. The Thor is just a dumb unit. The Collosus could've been interesting if it were easier to snipe, but what the fuck is the Thor meant to add to the game? I'm glad they're taking it out of HotS
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
Yes....The Mayans predicted this thousands of years ago at December 2012.
Hopefully they are wrong and BW holds out until HoTs comes out because SC2's current game unit designs is just bland as hell and I am tired of watching it already. Watching Flash A move a bioball blob won't excite me after a short while.
On April 20 2012 23:50 Aunvilgod wrote: Could maybe someone explain to me WHY BW is more interesting/challenging than SCII. As far as I know the differences are not that big. Just because the players are not very good the game is not necessarily bad.
Note that I think the rumor about lower skillcap of SCII is crap. Players still die to bad multitasking...
I think it's mostly people that have some sort of bitterness toward sc2, a lack of experience with sc2, or are just uninformed. The games are different, so yeah, not everyone is going to like both, but they require very similar skill sets and are a lot more similar than angry elitists make them out to be.
Nope, BW is just better to watch, as both more interesting to watch then chess or poker. There is a reason why BW have casual fans (who don't play videogames), and sc2 fans are all playing or have played sc2.
For me is: - graphical style is better (mature, no stupid toyish buildings) - units not clumping in one ball (that just look better) - better balance, and not only race balance, but also balance of opportunities and abilities (no stupid crap like "1 vortex with archons and zerg is dead, but without it protoss is dead") - as a result of previous one - game have more diversity and more dynamic. - level of play. No one in sc2 can multitask nearly as good as Bisu. - no tournaments overloading. 1 OSL, 1 MSL, 1 Proleague. Every game counts. - and the History, that lead to Stories and Drama, and sometimes Comedy. Just compare your usual preview\recap from gstl and preview\recap from proleague.
You can explain that over and over again and SC2 fans WON'T listen.
They don't want to believe that their game, when compared to BW, is lacking so much. What happens is a clicle where we explain why we believe which one is superior, they find themselves trapped then they spit out the word elitism as a last defence measure.
Rather than trying to explain why BW is better, this thread should be used to discuss what the fuck is gonna happen now. I sincerely believe that TBLS will fall into the common top tier SC2 pros because SC2 will crop out what makes a god from what makes a great pro.
Watching Bisu dropping games to MC would be eye bleeding. :/
Great point since he didn't lose vs RorO (whose overall record is 109-113 and 34-33 in ZvP) in the preliminiaries...!
roro played good, and in their last match (before the prelims) the played a 40 min macro pvz when roro won and it was a awesome game, so we already knew he could beat bisu, it was unlikely but not impossible
To be honest, I left the BW scene for 5+ years and only came back when SC2 was announced. I watched both but SC2 has been interesting me less and less as time goes by.
My biggest problem with SC2 right now is philosophical differences. Blizzard clearly wants a game where cheese, all-ins, unit composition and build orders play a much greater role in deciding games versus what it was in BW. They clearly want a game that is more luck based than BW was.
The community members who follow both scenes have voiced their opinions many time and Blizzard has been very stubborn about making changes. And some changes that have been requested (high ground advantage, unit clumping, more responsive micro) are likely to never happen. The company's too corporate now and I'm sure corporate is meddling with game design and balance to a degree that never happened during BW's development.
On April 21 2012 00:29 Thauleris wrote: The reason the SC2 scene is crushing the SC scene is that SC is so incredibly hard to get in to. Virtually no one gets into starcraft these days because they recently started playing SC, so the only way is to get "in" is to watch videos that are all in korean and talk to people who make it plain that they utterly despise you because you come from SC2. That doesn't sound like a recipe for a miracle comeback for the SC scene...
Not really. The reason all of this is happening is because SC2 as a game was designed to appease the crowds => more players => more money => power. As stated by many before, it's the age of the casual gamer. Games are now designed for a growing number of players and an overall younger community. You will also see your precious game replaced by another and yet another game soon enough, I'm sure. As soon as there's one with better graphics and an easier gameplay, the crowd will move on.
Now I have no problem with this crowd of gamers. And I'm happy to know they can enjoy whatever it is they like. I'm also pretty sure nobody hates you because you come from SC2. If someone gets angry it's because you (or the typical casual gamer) will then often proceed to make stupid claims about a game they hardly know anything about or apply a reasoning that is completely alien to us (such as pointing out outdated graphics - the majority of the BW fans will laugh at the word "outdated").
There are reasonable arguments for someone to prefer SC2 over BW (such as the game is more about strategy rather than in-game mechanics) and if these are made, well all I can say to that is: Okay dude, hope you can keep enjoying it. But if you come in and start saying shit about a game you know nothing about, you will get the hatred you deserve - and that is true for pretty much every game or actually anything likeable out there. Personally I prefer to try to persuade the person rather than to flame one, but I can see why someone else wouldn't.
It's when people act violently towards SC2 getting more sponsorships and attention, acting melodramatic about it and then looking down on people who enjoy SC2 as if they were plebians.
It seems as if people are just absolutely incapable of enjoying both games. Brood War has had much more time to develop, and it benefitted from better units in the expansion (Vanilla SC was not very balanced), giving the game much more variety than what SC2 currently has. It might not always be like that, we can't speculate what HoTS or LoTV will do to the game, it may do what Brood War did to SC1 and make it amazing.
When I hear Brood War fans talk about it being much more exciting to watch, with more variety, I absolutely agree. On the other hand I still get excited for players like Nestea and MVP when they win a GSL. The game may have simpler mechanics but it's hardly a reason to look down on people who prefer it, and say that it will never show any level of complexity. It's easy to find people who argued that Total Annihilation was infinitely more complex than Brood War ever was.
Anyway, that was not quite my point and I don't wish to argue about that any further. As for the abundant BW elitism, you're right - that happens and I'm not quite okay with it. Still I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with SC2 crushing BW. Also since the BW community is older and smaller, there are many helpful people and an overall better manner than in SC2, at least from my personal experience (also irrelevant to which game will dominate the scene).
I do agree that in general the Brood War community is much better, I used to browse here much more often when I was like 13 years old, I didn't even have SC1 back then, even though BW came out 5 years prior (I couldn't afford it). SC2's community is going through a rut of horrible witch hunts courtesy of Reddit, and just being awful in general, yet battle.net on SC2 feels very dead at times.
The problem is that most of us BW fans aren't just disappointed in the units design but in the AI, the graphics and the user interface... And to change all of these seems highly unlikely, seeing as most of the SC2 fans enjoy these "enhancements".
It's a funny thing about the AI, I do agree to some extent. SC2's propensity for deathball dancing can get very boring, but at the same time Brood War's AI can infuriate me.
On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote: The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by.
you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages.
also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units.
So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm.
Those are all internally consistent opinions.
Though I do like how Jellyfish simultaneously hates SC for not copying BW, and also hates it when it is copying BW.
Also, what the fuck, Fantasy O_O
Two different things. From the metagame standpoint, I don't understand why sc2's gameplay hasn't progressed faster. There's a certain amount of friction that comes from moving into a new game, of course, but I would've expected pro players to innovate faster than they have thus far. Two years is a long time. If I had to guess I'd say it's because the pros play a huge number of tournies, cutting down on their practice time and making it too risky to focus on developing the metagame over mastering the current metagame.
ZvZ has been pretty stagnant, though, no argument there.
ZvZ has changed a lot since its early days, I mean in early 2011 games didn't even leave the early stage (ling/bling wars) and then it got to a phase were everybody were rushing mutas. Now a days most people actually know how to defend ling/bling pressure and mutas so games tend to go for longer macro games with roach/infestor wars and then in the lategame teching to Broods (or denying mass infestors with ultras).
EPT
