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On April 21 2012 00:48 sparklyresidue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:45 jellyfish wrote:On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote:
The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by. you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages. also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units. So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm.
Please stop derailing the thread with the same shit that got every other related thread closed due to a flame war, comment on the information or just don't post It's really fucking annoying to have to go through these kinds of posts that have been said A THOUSAND times before just to read the thread.
On April 21 2012 00:54 huehuehuehue wrote:
I'm pretty sure the 90 % thing on GM is false though, that seems impossible, check sc2ranks anyone? Even like MKP, Jjakji, CoCa, Byun who are the best ladder players had something like 75 % or 80..
Yeah It was likely a short term winrate because I don't know of any accounts with that high of a winrate in KR GM.
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I'm pretty sure the 90 % thing on GM is false though, that seems impossible, check sc2ranks anyone? Even like MKP, Jjakji, CoCa, Byun who are the best ladder players had something like 75 % or 80..
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im pretty excited to see how tbls will fare in sc2. and flash... lol unimpressed as usual.
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On April 21 2012 00:29 Thauleris wrote:
The reason the SC2 scene is crushing the SC scene is that SC is so incredibly hard to get in to. Virtually no one gets into starcraft these days because they recently started playing SC, so the only way is to get "in" is to watch videos that are all in korean and talk to people who make it plain that they utterly despise you because you come from SC2. That doesn't sound like a recipe for a miracle comeback for the SC scene...
Not really. The reason all of this is happening is because SC2 as a game was designed to appease the crowds => more players => more money => power. As stated by many before, it's the age of the casual gamer. Games are now designed for a growing number of players and an overall younger community. You will also see your precious game replaced by another and yet another game soon enough, I'm sure. As soon as there's one with better graphics and an easier gameplay, the crowd will move on.
Now I have no problem with this crowd of gamers. And I'm happy to know they can enjoy whatever it is they like. I'm also pretty sure nobody hates you because you come from SC2. If someone gets angry it's because you (or the typical casual gamer) will then often proceed to make stupid claims about a game they hardly know anything about or apply a reasoning that is completely alien to us (such as pointing out outdated graphics - the majority of the BW fans will laugh at the word "outdated").
There are reasonable arguments for someone to prefer SC2 over BW (such as the game is more about strategy rather than in-game mechanics) and if these are made, well all I can say to that is: Okay dude, hope you can keep enjoying it.
But if you come in and start saying shit about a game you know nothing about, you will get the hatred you deserve - and that is true for pretty much every game or actually anything likeable out there. Personally I prefer to try to persuade the person rather than to flame one, but I can see why someone else wouldn't.
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On April 21 2012 00:52 Za7oX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:42 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Broodwar has 12 unit per control group
E-Sports has 'unlimited' unit per control group
Broodwar has manual mining
E-sports has auto-mining
Broodwar has single building selection
E-sports has mulitple building selection
Broodwar has sub-par unit AI
E-sports has smart-cast and decent unit AI
E-sports was made to be easy. I don't know why people deny this. For casuals to get into. This is stupid. One game was released in 1998, the other in 2010. Because SC2's interface is better designed its an easy game? Makes sense @_@
Oh right, the 'interface' argument. Still, it made E-sport easy. None can deny that.
BW Fans demean E-sports and it's fans because of the high praises for the scene it follows while trashing BW because they don't understand exactly how hard BW is. Watching these pros overcome the factors of the game that mere spectators have trouble overcoming it is a huge factor why BW is great.
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On April 21 2012 00:53 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:52 Cejotas wrote:
Maybe now blizzard reacts and improves the game...
jk Apparently it's KeSPA's responsibility, which is an interesting discussion I wish we were having instead of SC2 vs BW. And while....nothing....will make BW fans like SC2, HotS is at least a small step in the right direction. The Oracle, in particular, is one of the best units in either game.
Well, I can only see KeSPA improving game quality through format changes and map pool, but they have made some very questionable decisions about those in the past.
I mean, look at Demon's Forest and Battle Royal. Even though KeSPA mapmakers often churn out gems, they do make huge mistakes from time to time.
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On April 21 2012 00:42 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Broodwar has 12 unit per control group
E-Sports has 'unlimited' unit per control group
Broodwar has manual mining
E-sports has auto-mining
Broodwar has single building selection
E-sports has mulitple building selection
Broodwar has sub-par unit AI
E-sports has smart-cast and decent unit AI
E-sports was made to be easy. I don't know why people deny this. For casuals to get into.
SC2 has poor unit design (collosus, hydras, stalkers), no Lan, deathballs, protoss and PVP is broken... nothing is going to be repaired in HOTS. At the moment a 98 game is better than SC2, only because blizz wants.
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On April 21 2012 00:51 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:48 sparklyresidue wrote:On April 21 2012 00:45 jellyfish wrote:On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote:
The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by. you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages. also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units. So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm. Those are all internally consistent opinions. Though I do like how Jellyfish simultaneously hates SC for not copying BW, and also hates it when it is copying BW. Also, what the fuck, Fantasy O_O
Two different things. From the metagame standpoint, I don't understand why sc2's gameplay hasn't progressed faster. There's a certain amount of friction that comes from moving into a new game, of course, but I would've expected pro players to innovate faster than they have thus far. Two years is a long time. If I had to guess I'd say it's because the pros play a huge number of tournies, cutting down on their practice time and making it too risky to focus on developing the metagame over mastering the current metagame. But I'm disappointed that so many games end due to mistakes (in scouting, in positioning, in multitasking, etc) that bw players wouldn't make.
From the design standpoint, I wish the dev team would stop pathologically trying to avoid bw's shadow and accept the starcraft label comes with certain expectations and heritage. HOTS isn't copying bw; the swarm host, viper, (scrapped) warhound, battle hellion are like the cheap chinatown bootlegs of lurker, defiler, etc. Either man up and put the bw units back in, or be creative and think of something new. I just find it disasteful that browder is so indignant about his game being another bw and pulling that kind of stunt.
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United Kingdom38199 Posts
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much.
the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action
the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg
the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
No Fantasy, what have you done T____T
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On April 21 2012 01:00 Cejotas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:42 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Broodwar has 12 unit per control group
E-Sports has 'unlimited' unit per control group
Broodwar has manual mining
E-sports has auto-mining
Broodwar has single building selection
E-sports has mulitple building selection
Broodwar has sub-par unit AI
E-sports has smart-cast and decent unit AI
E-sports was made to be easy. I don't know why people deny this. For casuals to get into. SC2 has poor unit design (collosus, hydras, stalkers), no Lan, deathballs, protoss and PVP is broken... nothing is going to be repaired in HOTS. At the moment a 98 game is better than SC", only because blizz wants it.
Stalkers? Really? That's the third-worst unit in SC2?
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On April 21 2012 00:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much.
the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action
the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg
the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before fuck this shit I'm not watching proleague if this is true.
of course fantasy switched think of him trying to use bio every game it would be a disaster
albeit an amusing one
edit:
On April 21 2012 01:01 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 01:00 Cejotas wrote:On April 21 2012 00:42 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Broodwar has 12 unit per control group
E-Sports has 'unlimited' unit per control group
Broodwar has manual mining
E-sports has auto-mining
Broodwar has single building selection
E-sports has mulitple building selection
Broodwar has sub-par unit AI
E-sports has smart-cast and decent unit AI
E-sports was made to be easy. I don't know why people deny this. For casuals to get into. SC2 has poor unit design (collosus, hydras, stalkers), no Lan, deathballs, protoss and PVP is broken... nothing is going to be repaired in HOTS. At the moment a 98 game is better than SC", only because blizz wants it. Stalkers? Really? That's the third-worst unit in SC2?
he plays zerg, has probably played against a lot of blink stalker allins and didn't build infestors to deal with it so he would probably think that blink stalkers are imba (they're really good but at least you need micro unlike colossus...which are even better than microed blink stalkers!)
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On April 21 2012 01:01 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much.
the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action
the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg
the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before No Fantasy, what have you done T____T
If Flash switches to Protoss, I will punch a hole in my wall.
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On April 21 2012 00:57 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:29 Thauleris wrote:
The reason the SC2 scene is crushing the SC scene is that SC is so incredibly hard to get in to. Virtually no one gets into starcraft these days because they recently started playing SC, so the only way is to get "in" is to watch videos that are all in korean and talk to people who make it plain that they utterly despise you because you come from SC2. That doesn't sound like a recipe for a miracle comeback for the SC scene... Not really. The reason all of this is happening is because SC2 as a game was designed to appease the crowds => more players => more money => power. As stated by many before, it's the age of the casual gamer. Games are now designed for a growing number of players and an overall younger community. You will also see your precious game replaced by another and yet another game soon enough, I'm sure. As soon as there's one with better graphics and an easier gameplay, the crowd will move on. Now I have no problem with this crowd of gamers. And I'm happy to know they can enjoy whatever it is they like. I'm also pretty sure nobody hates you because you come from SC2. If someone gets angry it's because you (or the typical casual gamer) will then often proceed to make stupid claims about a game they hardly know anything about or apply a reasoning that is completely alien to us (such as pointing out outdated graphics - the majority of the BW fans will laugh at the word "outdated"). There are reasonable arguments for someone to prefer SC2 over BW (such as the game is more about strategy rather than in-game mechanics) and if these are made, well all I can say to that is: Okay dude, hope you can keep enjoying it. But if you come in and start saying shit about a game you know nothing about, you will get the hatred you deserve - and that is true for pretty much every game or actually anything likeable out there. Personally I prefer to try to persuade the person rather than to flame one, but I can see why someone else wouldn't.
It's when people act violently towards SC2 getting more sponsorships and attention, acting melodramatic about it and then looking down on people who enjoy SC2 as if they were plebians.
It seems as if people are just absolutely incapable of enjoying both games. Brood War has had much more time to develop, and it benefitted from better units in the expansion (Vanilla SC was not very balanced), giving the game much more variety than what SC2 currently has. It might not always be like that, we can't speculate what HoTS or LoTV will do to the game, it may do what Brood War did to SC1 and make it amazing.
When I hear Brood War fans talk about it being much more exciting to watch, with more variety, I absolutely agree. On the other hand I still get excited for players like Nestea and MVP when they win a GSL. The game may have simpler mechanics but it's hardly a reason to look down on people who prefer it, and say that it will never show any level of complexity. It's easy to find people who argued that Total Annihilation was infinitely more complex than Brood War ever was.
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On April 21 2012 01:03 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 01:01 Asha` wrote:On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much.
the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action
the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg
the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before No Fantasy, what have you done T____T If Flash switches to Protoss, I will punch a hole in my wall.
Don't even speak of such things.
That would really suck if none of the S Class Terran players stayed Terran in sc2 because i think Terran has the highest skill cap right now.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
SC2 needs
LANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLAN
LANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLAN
LANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLAN
LANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLAN
LANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLAN
LANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLANLAN
to be called a competitive game, but unfortunately "gamers=doormats of companies" so they buy their shit anyway so why would the companies care.
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On April 21 2012 01:01 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 01:00 Cejotas wrote:On April 21 2012 00:42 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Broodwar has 12 unit per control group
E-Sports has 'unlimited' unit per control group
Broodwar has manual mining
E-sports has auto-mining
Broodwar has single building selection
E-sports has mulitple building selection
Broodwar has sub-par unit AI
E-sports has smart-cast and decent unit AI
E-sports was made to be easy. I don't know why people deny this. For casuals to get into. SC2 has poor unit design (collosus, hydras, stalkers), no Lan, deathballs, protoss and PVP is broken... nothing is going to be repaired in HOTS. At the moment a 98 game is better than SC", only because blizz wants it. Stalkers? Really? That's the third-worst unit in SC2?
In my opinion blink makes PVP suck, and I prefer dragoons... maybe there are another units that are bad designed (carriers)
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A BW to SC2 switch sounds awesome to me.
Then we will have 1 very strong RTS game instead of 2 games cannabalizing eachother.
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'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Lol, playing SC2 with weak wrist and going with old broodwar units, masters in korea no probs.
God damn it, I can already see it, in another 2 yrs the average person won't know what the OSL is. I would like to see all the pro players whose only weakness was mechanics rape in SC2 though.
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I have been following this game and especially Jaedong for almost five years now, I am going to stay here until the end. I will not continue watching when they switch, but maybe tune in for Jaedong's games.
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On April 20 2012 23:05 KenNage wrote:
my last osl then, then im out, im not watching sc2
Later bro.
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EPT
