EPT##Vote: sc2system
Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia IX - Page 9
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Ninja4ever.
France231 Posts
##Vote: sc2system | ||
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Nova_Terra
Switzerland1190 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On March 24 2012 02:20 Nova_Terra wrote: Artanis, can you tell me your thoughts on Rise of Fenix? if it came down between him and a lurker, who would you rather lynch and why? Rise of Fenix to me seems like someone who just is very new to Mafia and isn't sure where to go. He tries to explore options but does so in an extremely clumsy manner. His one hour before the lynch voting thing smells scummy but I have this feeling he's just a confused townie whom is very easy to be made to look bad. I don't think Mafia will be making these kinds of gaping misplays so I'm looking for something more subtle, like I did in my analysis. On March 24 2012 02:33 Ninja4ever. wrote: 2°) Artosis on Seviro Artosis? :/ I don’t find your analysis based on strong enough evidences to warrant a lynch, your main argument being he posted too much redondancy and too little content, am I right ? Too me this is kinda natural when you have so few information, and it looks like every thing has been pretty much said. If you have little information and everything has already been said, you could agree with someone in a single line instead of making a giant post that basically says "I agree". Mafia gains by having the thread cluttered up with lots of useless information as it throws town off. I think that's a lot more telling than "scum slips" which are usually just typos. You could be trying to gain credit as a mafia and could also be a mafia that doesn’t want to look like he’s jumping on the Fenix wagon. By posting this analys you’d be killing two birds with one stone. As I said though, this is only really slight suspicion (around 55-45 mafia-townie, in my eyes) and even I is more suspicous at the moment, given my inactivity on the past couple days. WIFOM argument, I could be a townie just trying to get some analysis done to move the town forward too by posting some actual discussion. If posting analysis on a player now makes you suspicious just because you're posting analysis rather than it's contents, I don't think this town is going to go forward much, and that you find that suspicious is something I find suspicious. | ||
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Ninja4ever.
France231 Posts
Sry for mixing your name up artanis <3 | ||
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Seviro
Canada98 Posts
On March 23 2012 23:55 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Time to bring another suspect to the table. Introductory post. Pretty much no content other than saying he'll post again later. Wants to pressure for lurker lynch when this is pretty much established in town, the whole paragraph goes on about how lurking is bad which has pretty much been established already. Somewhat defends lurkers in the same post which is odd. Agrees with another townie to gain cred, this is a trend in Seviro's posts; rarely comes up with any own ideas and mostly agrees with other townies to 'blend in'. Also jumps on the against the 1 hour bandwagon which is fairly obvious. Long post basically stating the obvious and agreeing with other people. Nothing of real worth here. These are exactly the type of contributions that scum is fine with doing, as they don't really 'help' the town in any way. The Rise of Fenix train is going nicely, which if he's just a bad townie is fine for mafia. Are you suddenly suggesting to no lynch? We've pretty much all agreed that not lynching day 1 is bad because of lack of information. People should vote on suspicion regardless. Continuing on with something that really isn't that crucial and if people agree to 8 hours instead of 6 there's nothing groundbreaking that will be decided. Based on all these posts that pretty much say nothing at all and seem to want to blend in most of all which seems like scum behaviour to me, though it's just a suspicion, I'm voting for Seviro for now. At worst it'll spark some more discussion. ##Vote Seviro Wants to pressure for lurker lynch when this is pretty much established in town, the whole paragraph goes on about how lurking is bad which has pretty much been established already. Somewhat defends lurkers in the same post which is odd. I already answered what I meant by that, pressuring and lynching are two different thing. Pressuring is forcing them to post by asking them directly their opinion on a subject so that we can more precisely find who is scum and who is not. A scum under pressure is most likely to post than a town in my opinion. Agrees with another townie to gain cred, this is a trend in Seviro's posts; rarely comes up with any own ideas and mostly agrees with other townies to 'blend in'. Also jumps on the against the 1 hour bandwagon which is fairly obvious. Long post basically stating the obvious and agreeing with other people. Ok, so I can't agree with anyone that's what you're saying? I mean I wasn'T online after Nova question and Froggy kind of answered him in my place and I just pointed out that it was indeed what I meant. On March 23 2012 04:54 froggynoddy wrote: What I have been saying (and I think what Seviro is saying), is to be able to analyse behaviour you need to get actions and reactions from people. The analysis then has to be correct in of itself. The decision to lynch should therefore be based on 1. information (gathered by pressuring, amongst other ways) 2. Correct analysis. But without 1. we shall never be able to do 2. And therefore any decisions to lynch will be less strong. These are exactly the type of contributions that scum is fine with doing, as they don't really 'help' the town in any way. The Rise of Fenix train is going nicely, which if he's just a bad townie is fine for mafia. Ok, so now I'm suspicious because i'm not badwagonning? I don'T really see your point here. Are you suddenly suggesting to no lynch? We've pretty much all agreed that not lynching day 1 is bad because of lack of information. People should vote on suspicion regardless. Way to miss the point, I won't bother explaining again since what you quoted was clear and you just seem to want to make me look scummy by making me say what I didn'T say. Continuing on with something that really isn't that crucial and if people agree to 8 hours instead of 6 there's nothing groundbreaking that will be decided. It is not that crucial but if we can come up with something like this we will be a lot more organized and will have time to discuss all the votes before the actual deadline. Once again I explained it very well. Now that you put yourself on the stage, let's take a look at you. + Show Spoiler + On March 22 2012 21:12 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Hey guys, just woke up, sorry for not replying yet. 3am is quite late for us Europeans, but I'm here now  This is my third or fourth game of TL Mafia, I've organized Insane Mafia before which was an absolutely insane game and a ton of fun. I'm also pro lynching someone on day 1 as lynches are the only reliable way to kill mafia. We don't know if there's a vigilante in the game, but I don't think we can count on it. We should also treat any roleclaims with suspicion. Don't blindly follow anyone that claims, or anyone that makes long posts. Think for yourself and don't jump on bandwagons. From what I've seen in other games this is generally what kills towns. Mafia is by definition more organized so they're better at bandwagoning, though a smart mafia will never have everyone voting on one person. However, if there's any risk of a mafia getting lynched they'll normally switch their votes off so anyone that switches votes at the last minute should be viewed with suspicion. Introductory post, little content else than the obvious and some WIFOM toward the end + Show Spoiler + On March 23 2012 05:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Why would you not post your thoughts now instead of one hour before the deadline? We could actually discuss them if you post it now, there's no reason not to. On of the first to tell what everyone else will say after. (People can have the same opinion, it'S not necessary badwagonning) + Show Spoiler + On March 24 2012 01:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: @Nova_Terra however bandwagoning on everything and making large posts that basically say "I agree" IS scummy, because the length of the post can make it seem like you're contributing when in fact you're not saying anything new. Sure, others have done this as well, but I haven't seen anyone else make such long posts without any real 'content'. I agree that my posts are kind of long but just because you are missing every point that I make it doesn't mean that I have no content. + Show Spoiler + On March 24 2012 02:07 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Also, to my defense, if I was mafia I'd probably have a large accusatory post proofread by the other mafia. The chance of a slip like that happening in that case are much smaller. And to correct myself, when I said town I simply meant all players, not specifically town aligned. This defense is not valid as it is only WIFOM. (It's a newbie game after all) Now I hate to do that, but I need to vote on you for now. In your case on me you were purposely (or not) missing all my point to make me look scummy and that for me is a lot more scummy. so for now ##Vote: Artanis[Xp] | ||
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Seviro
Canada98 Posts
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Ninja4ever.
France231 Posts
On March 24 2012 02:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote: WIFOM argument, I could be a townie just trying to get some analysis done to move the town forward too by posting some actual discussion. If posting analysis on a player now makes you suspicious just because you're posting analysis rather than it's contents, I don't think this town is going to go forward much, and that you find that suspicious is something I find suspicious. Ha don't get me wrong, I love the fact that you're actually analysing and putting actual material for discussion. But, while what you said is true (he is indeed not putting a lot of content in its posts), I don't see it as scumy enough to be lynch worthy at all. Although after think over it again, it's true that what I said was WIFOM, which isn't exactly telling (I'll make sure to not make that kind of mistake again) But it kinda add up with your "slip up", so still 55-45 in my eyes. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
There are a couple of things that have recently been posted that I want to touch on but I have to go for now, will post in probably 2-3 hours. | ||
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froggynoddy
United Kingdom452 Posts
On March 24 2012 03:14 Seviro wrote: Oh, I really just think now that Fenix is playing poorly or just doesn't care enough to put enough time on the game. But I'll give him the chance to step up his play because I really think he is town. Why do you think he is 'really' town? At best its 50/50 as he has not contributed anything to town. My strongest read at the minute is Mementos as leaning town. His analysis seems well thought out and his pressuring good. Rise Of Fenix is either scum or not useful to town. I'm not going to repeat the case against him but it seems to be the strongest we have. At the moment a lynch seems beneficial to town as if we don't lynch we have less information and theres a risk day 2 is spent on day 1 stuff. ##Vote Rise Of Fenix If Rise of Fenix contributes something before I go to bed (in 3-4hrs or so) then I will strongly consider switching my vote to virtu due to his inactivity. | ||
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Seviro
Canada98 Posts
On March 24 2012 04:29 froggynoddy wrote: Why do you think he is 'really' town? At best its 50/50 as he has not contributed anything to town. I think that if he was mafia, his fellow scum would have helped him in the background so that he don't look so suspicious. For now I think he is just bad and as I said, i'm willing to give him a chance to step up his play. I shouldn't have said that I think that he is really town, more like I don't see him being more scummy than anyone else right now. | ||
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froggynoddy
United Kingdom452 Posts
On March 24 2012 04:40 Seviro wrote: I think that if he was mafia, his fellow scum would have helped him in the background so that he don't look so suspicious. For now I think he is just bad and as I said, i'm willing to give him a chance to step up his play. I shouldn't have said that I think that he is really town, more like I don't see him being more scummy than anyone else right now. Assuming that scum proofread is silly, we can only go by what happens in this thread. | ||
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froggynoddy
United Kingdom452 Posts
Otherwise we would disregard any slip up by saying 'well gee doze scum can't bee dat bad'. | ||
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michaelthe
United States359 Posts
He essentially had zero content in a few filler posts. Then he voted on a bandwagon without activity. BUT the slip from Artanis[Xp] is too severe. Mementoss pointed it out, but it is worth repeating: On March 23 2012 23:55 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Agrees with another townie to gain cred, this is a trend in Seviro's posts; rarely comes up with any own ideas and mostly agrees with other townies to 'blend in'. Also jumps on the against the 1 hour bandwagon which is fairly obvious. Long post basically stating the obvious and agreeing with other people. 1. ONLY scum know who the townies are. This is a simply point, they know who is mafia, therefore they know who isnt mafia. Even if a DT checks someone, the person could have been framed, or the miller, or the GF or whatever. The ONLY way to know someone is town is TO BE mafia. 2. To call this a newbie mistake I think is incorrect. Freudian slip is more likely. There is a natural hesitation in everyone's mind as they play this game. To post with certainty that someone is a Town, even in 3 words, is a massive slip. On March 24 2012 01:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Oops, yeah that looks bad. That was a bad town play. What I meant was someone making a play that is obviously town favored. I worded it poorly. I believe it's a slip that both townies and scum can make with little effort though. 3. His only defense is "oops, my bad, scum slips dont happen since I would vet every post". Doesn't convince me. If this were true, 90% of scum slips wouldn't happen! This is too severe to overlook! sc2system is a good lynch, I still don't think Fenix is a great lynch, but Artanis is the clear day1 lynch in my mind! ##Vote: Artanis[Xp] | ||
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Seviro
Canada98 Posts
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froggynoddy
United Kingdom452 Posts
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Seviro
Canada98 Posts
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michaelthe
United States359 Posts
On March 24 2012 05:10 Seviro wrote: Yeah I know, I just feel like it's too obvious to be true. I might be wrong tho. Don't confuse a big tell with a big mistake. The mistake itself could have be fixed with 1 word: Potential or Possible Townie or change townie to person. The tell is big, the mistake was 1 word. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On March 24 2012 03:10 Seviro wrote: I already answered what I meant by that, pressuring and lynching are two different thing. Pressuring is forcing them to post by asking them directly their opinion on a subject so that we can more precisely find who is scum and who is not. A scum under pressure is most likely to post than a town in my opinion. If you already indicate all you want to do is pressure and you want to "pressure" lurkers yet are unwilling to go through with the lynching, then there is no real pressure to speak of. They can be silent and you'd still refuse to lynch them is what I'm getting out of this. Ok, so I can't agree with anyone that's what you're saying? I mean I wasn'T online after Nova question and Froggy kind of answered him in my place and I just pointed out that it was indeed what I meant. You're welcome to agree with people, but you didn't expand on anything while filling up a post that really said nothing but "I agree", in effect cluttering up the thread. I must say that I skipped over froggy's post though when searching for your posts. He did put it nicely. On March 23 2012 04:54 froggynoddy wrote: What I have been saying (and I think what Seviro is saying), is to be able to analyse behaviour you need to get actions and reactions from people. The analysis then has to be correct in of itself. The decision to lynch should therefore be based on 1. information (gathered by pressuring, amongst other ways) 2. Correct analysis. But without 1. we shall never be able to do 2. And therefore any decisions to lynch will be less strong. Ok, so now I'm suspicious because i'm not badwagonning? I don'T really see your point here. What? In this post, you WERE bandwagoning. The train to lynch Rise of Fenix was going nicely, and if you're scum and he's not then it's beneficial to ride the train to his destruction. Way to miss the point, I won't bother explaining again since what you quoted was clear and you just seem to want to make me look scummy by making me say what I didn'T say. Chainsaw arguments are great. You're suggesting that a no lynch can be fine past day 1 and of course a mislynch will be worse then a no lynch. Problem is you don't know if it'll be a mislynch beforehand, and every day you don't lynch someone is a day that mafia can kill someone. The only time a no lynch is really a good idea is during mylo. It is not that crucial but if we can come up with something like this we will be a lot more organized and will have time to discuss all the votes before the actual deadline. Once again I explained it very well. Whether people vote 6 or 8 hours before the deadline really isn't that important. It's nothing to condemn anyone over but I don't consider it a valuable post by any means, 6 hours would've done the same job. Now that you put yourself on the stage, let's take a look at you. Gladly. Introductory post, little content else than the obvious and some WIFOM toward the end I explained my background which was asked of me and gave some clues regarding what the mafia might and might not do. You could consider it WIFOM, but I do think it's very likely that the mafia isn't stupid enough to vote on one person. Just trying to make sure everyone has their thinking caps on. + Show Spoiler + On March 23 2012 05:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Why would you not post your thoughts now instead of one hour before the deadline? We could actually discuss them if you post it now, there's no reason not to. On of the first to tell what everyone else will say after. (People can have the same opinion, it'S not necessary badwagonning) I was one of the first to say this and I think it was a neccesary thing to say. It is a scummy action and we need that information as soon as possible. It's in no spam or detrimental to town. I agree that my posts are kind of long but just because you are missing every point that I make it doesn't mean that I have no content. All points you've made have been repeats of what other people have said, other than wanting to have 8 instead of 6 hours. You're not making any points, you're repeating those of others. This defense is not valid as it is only WIFOM. (It's a newbie game after all) A defense is as valid as likely as you believe it to be. Mafia's advantage is in organisation, not using that organisation would just be silly. There's a line between WIFOM and common sense, and I think this goes into the common sense department. Now I hate to do that, but I need to vote on you for now. In your case on me you were purposely (or not) missing all my point to make me look scummy and that for me is a lot more scummy. so for now ##Vote: Artanis[Xp] Eh, okay, but I think your reasoning is weak for it and I don't think you've made any real points of your own whereas I have. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On March 24 2012 05:08 michaelthe wrote: I was 100% ready to come and vote for sc2system. He essentially had zero content in a few filler posts. Then he voted on a bandwagon without activity. BUT the slip from Artanis[Xp] is too severe. Mementoss pointed it out, but it is worth repeating: 1. ONLY scum know who the townies are. This is a simply point, they know who is mafia, therefore they know who isnt mafia. Even if a DT checks someone, the person could have been framed, or the miller, or the GF or whatever. The ONLY way to know someone is town is TO BE mafia. 2. To call this a newbie mistake I think is incorrect. Freudian slip is more likely. There is a natural hesitation in everyone's mind as they play this game. To post with certainty that someone is a Town, even in 3 words, is a massive slip. 3. His only defense is "oops, my bad, scum slips dont happen since I would vet every post". Doesn't convince me. If this were true, 90% of scum slips wouldn't happen! This is too severe to overlook! sc2system is a good lynch, I still don't think Fenix is a great lynch, but Artanis is the clear day1 lynch in my mind! ##Vote: Artanis[Xp] I already added that what I meant with town was the entirety of everyone playing, that includes citizens and mafia. I misspoke which was a slip, and is easily done by both mafia and town. Lynching someone on a slip rather than solid analysis seems silly to me, though that's easy to say being on the chopping block and all. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
@Nova_Terra: Why are you so quick to defend his(Aranis) slip? >_> Your meta is so off of last game. Also didn't you bring up voting deadline or at least agree to it? Where is your vote? @Seviro: I like this point against Artanis you made, that his case using your quotes to make things look scummy out of context, but in context they actually weren't. Making a weak case just to say you made a case is scummy, but not enough to warrant a day 1 lynch IMO. Just because he actually is active and responding back to counter points. Right now I would be happy with a lynch on either of these two: Sc2System, or Rise Of Fenix RoF because of the case I made on him, and him never responding. However it seems like no one is around to defend him, or point a case away from him, which seems odd for scum. Safe lynch because his quality of post is terrible, even if he flips green. Sc2System: A lurker. Has not said anything of value. Maybe not the biggest lurker post wise, but the way he posted just seems really scummy to me. Jumps into game with a couple of posts. Then bandwagons on what looks like the majority vote for the day. He bandwagons at a time which seems to try to be non-suspicious, does not iniate the vote, and does not wait till the end to vote. | ||
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