|
On March 20 2012 19:58 RolleMcKnolle wrote: if Blizzard would have had foreseen anything regarding zerg they would have removed the roach :p
Why? The problem clearly was the hydralisk. (Nerf nerf nerf; 1supply 2armor roaches were fine!)
|
On March 20 2012 14:45 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Players in masters league are barely able to do more than (somewhat efficiently) build an army and 1A it. The other skills are scouting, build/transition instinct or memorization, and maybe minimal micro. .
You really think a Terran can get out of diamond with minimal micro?
|
On March 21 2012 04:37 Twistacles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:45 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Players in masters league are barely able to do more than (somewhat efficiently) build an army and 1A it. The other skills are scouting, build/transition instinct or memorization, and maybe minimal micro. . You really think a Terran can get out of diamond with minimal micro? Yes. Terran has several all-ins that don't require much micro in any matchup and mech in TvT/TvZ require very little micro. In TvP if you can land EMPs with 10+ ghosts and upgrade your marines/vikings, you don't really have to split, stutterstep, or anything else. This is all particularly true when you have superior macro.
|
I would say TvT requires Micro, but yes, in low leagues, you can win with like only cloaked banshee or 1/1/1 which is quite strong
|
|
As Toss you can´t win anymore without FFE vs Zerg. But I also think bigger maps aren´t the best sollution because it´s just getting onesided. As Stephano said "Zerg has so many options to play vs Toss." Toss has to do always the same shit. And if a Zerg is right positoned and has like 20+ BLs you just can´t win. It´s just boring and it sucks to play Zerg on big maps because you either have to 2 Base all in or get lucky in late game.
Greetings.
|
On March 21 2012 04:37 Twistacles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:45 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Players in masters league are barely able to do more than (somewhat efficiently) build an army and 1A it. The other skills are scouting, build/transition instinct or memorization, and maybe minimal micro. . You really think a Terran can get out of diamond with minimal micro? Sure, I was offracing as T vs master Z/P friends and managed to take games off them, and I sure as hell didn't know what I was doing micro-wise. Oh, I was trying to split, but it wasn't effective whatsoever because I'd never tried it before.
Sheer macro/reading a BO did 100x more.
|
On March 21 2012 04:46 How2getMaster wrote: As Toss you can´t win anymore without FFE vs Zerg. But I also think bigger maps aren´t the best sollution because it´s just getting onesided. As Stephano said "Zerg has so many options to play vs Toss." Toss has to do always the same shit. And if a Zerg is right positoned and has like 20+ BLs you just can´t win. It´s just boring and it sucks to play Zerg on big maps because you either have to 2 Base all in or get lucky in late game.
Greetings.
I have 80%+ win PvZ at 600-700 Masters doing the 1 Base Immortal All-in It isn't true that you can't win without FFE
|
This may sound odd, but I'm almost surprised that we haven't seen any tournaments even attempt smaller map pools, but different map pools for each matchup. For instance tal'darim isn't a bad map, but for pvp its absolutely terrible. I don't think the answer is a completely different map pool, but for particular matchups just take maps out entirely. So if there are 7 maps in a pool overall, only 5 would be applicable to pvp for example, but that protoss is still responsible for the other 2 maps because they may be in the other matchups.
I understand that is what veto's are for, but instead of having players waste their veto because of inherent imbalance, it could be used to a more strategic advantages.
|
Actually, Daybreak isn't that bad for Toss-- it's actually one of my favorites. You can very easily posture between the third and natural of the Zerg, and force him to keep his army defending the bases alternately. Then, you just fly a warp prism in his main and do a large warp in/drop of zealot/ sentry respectively (blink stalkers not bad either) and ruin his main. You expand off of that, and it's a 3 base versus a recovering 3 base, exact lead depending on how successful your attack was and when you started your third.
|
On March 20 2012 14:45 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 13:19 Kharnage wrote: I think the biggest tragedy of this is that Blizzard so underestimates their 'lowest common denominator' player base. SC2 is complex shit. I was walking my GF through a co-op game and told her to do a basic bio terran build and sheer amount of crap she had to do was startling. She's played the dawn of war series and is no RTS newbie, but it was quickly obvious that the 'best' thing to do was play the campaign and learn it bit by bit.
Anyone know knows enough to play on ladder is capable of learning to scout the map. Maybe not efficiently, maybe not with any meaningful timings, but they can learn to occasionally shift click a marine around the 'unused' expos. The blunt truth is that Blizzard thinks low level players are stupid, barely able to do more than build and army and 1A it at the enemy, and they are wrong. Players in masters league are barely able to do more than (somewhat efficiently) build an army and 1A it. The other skills are scouting, build/transition instinct or memorization, and maybe minimal micro. Low league (particularly bronze) players can barely build a maxed army if left alone for 30 minutes. Most of them just lose to worker rushes and essentially any semblance of an attack before that point. Even players in the GSL don't always scout for hidden bases and a recent finals had jjakji sneak a base on tal'darim for the entire game. I'm not really convinced that this is a legitimate reason to be afraid of making maps with a lot of bases, it is simply an increase in the skill gap for the game, which is rather a good thing. So while I agree that this kind of scouting should be done by anyone and I always make an effort to do it, you are overestimating the vast majority of players. imo if people can't be bothered to watch their own replays to figure out they should be improving their scouting, they should be losing to hidden expansions just like they should lose to anything else they could easily scout but just decided not to.
What Utter BS.
My Bronze level friends lose a game to a hidden expo, then after realising what happened they check for the next bunch of games. Eventually they forget when they focus on some other part of their play, but your statement above is total crap. Most of my Bronze level friends will be maxed around 20 to 22 minutes off 2 bases, will have upgrades and a decent composition of units.
You underestimate everyone.
|
I agree with OP, a few more rock piles at the third bases would help even up the match-up.
Alternative Solution: Protoss players need to begin dissuading zerg from their pool hatch hatch shenanigans. I humbly suggest a greater committment to cannon rushes and 8 gate all-ins :p
|
|
|
|