EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 21
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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Iblis
904 Posts
On March 19 2012 06:45 hzflank wrote: This is a random thought and 100% untested, but if you were to open stargate could you get a dark shrine along with your third and use voidrays (to kill overseers), DTs and cannons to hold it? Spending so much gas will leave a protoss with so little real army that if the Z goes heavy on roach/lings and actually tries to deny/kill your third he will always kill it before you will be able to kill the whole roach/lings army. the Zerg will never be able to kill the void, phenixes and DT but you will never be able to get your third fast without a tons of sentries to block all ground attack. At this point in the game if you invested all your gas on phenixes, DT and sentries you will never be able to put pressure back on the zerg if he reacted to the air opening he will be more than ready for DT and the whole map is his. Edit TL DR: phenixes and DT gives too little ground DPS and will not be able to defend a big roach push before it does too much damage. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
The problem is that you need almost PERFECT micro aganist a well executed stephano style (with multi pronged crap). If you fuck it up slighlty in your micro, you're dead. And Z doesn't even have to micro. And if you indeed micro well, and kill a lot of roaches, Z is still cool in the game with spire or infestor tech follow ups, plus 4th and already +65 drones. So imho, this is imbalanced. Stepahno stated that too, and i'm pretty sure the guy is a pretty analytic/smart player. Still i think Genius stargate style is an amazing tool to push and improve multitasking and micro. Without heavy multitask the build is pointless aganist a similar skilled z. | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On March 19 2012 06:59 Iblis wrote: Spending so much gas will leave a protoss with so little real army that if the Z goes heavy on roach/lings and actually tries to deny/kill your third he will always kill it before you will be able to kill the whole roach/lings army. the Zerg will never be able to kill the void, phenixes and DT but you will never be able to get your third fast without a tons of sentries to block all ground attack. At this point in the game if you invested all your gas on phenixes, DT and sentries you will never be able to put pressure back on the zerg if he reacted to the air opening he will be more than ready for DT and the whole map is his. Edit TL DR: phenixes and DT gives too little ground DPS and will not be able to defend a big roach push before it does too much damage. let's keep that idea for a second and try to find a possible solution: if you get an 8 minute third, then immediately cannon up the third and natural (like ~5 cannons each?) while getting phoenixes (not sure if 1 or 2 stargates) and DT tech (and thus being super-low on gateway units) could you hold the roach push? the phoenixes would of course be used to snipe overseers in order to protect the DTs. by getting 10 or so phoenixes you could also keep the zerg from dropping into your main to avoid the cannons. from there you could go into mothership/carrier (possibly with phoenix range to make things even more peculiar) | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4824 Posts
On March 19 2012 06:03 Berailfor wrote: @Khamun Because they don't need to react the an allin coming because your third timing is SCOUTED. Which comes up before your gateways for an immortal/sentry allin would be finished. A nexus only costs 400 minerals; less than that, if you're counting the supply it provides. If the Zerg is reacting sharply to your choice to claim plant a third nexus, you could perform essentially the same all-in (with a couple units fewer) for greater effect. I recall Terrans were frightened of Protoss going for a quick three nexuses and then cutting probes and busting their naturals... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:50 KhAmun wrote: First of all yes, you do need hydras if you want a salvageable drone count, 60 drones and roach ling is not enough to stop that allin properly executed. engaging in the middle of the map is good and all if you've been making units for the last 3 minutes, but not if you drone above 55, as you simply won't have enough units. I disagree with your second point completely, IF the zerg is respecting the immortal/sentry/gateway allin, he will not be in a position to just run away with the game. (sometimes it will inevitably feel like that because the zerg either didn't respect or recognize the threat of the allin, in which case he's flipping a coin or just sort of bad.) You have three base economy, meaning you can get pretty much whatever unit composition you please, and with diligent scouting with hallucination you should know exactly what that unit composition is. 3+ base, a protoss knowing which unit comp the zerg is going for should always been in a pretty good position, just because of cost efficiency reasons. How is that relying on the element of surprise or improper reaction? EDIT: Lone Star Clash spoiler+ Show Spoiler + Grubby just beat Violet using a stargate->robo build, with sentries. He used void +4 phoenix for map control, and took his third off of sentry/2immortal/ couple zealots and stalkers. Violet tried to break it with roach ling, making a spire behind it, but grubby held with good (and slightly late) FF's. Violet got up a scary muta ball, but grubby had blink started by the time his thrid base finished, allowing him to deflect them with 4phoenix/`7-10 stalkers and cannons. Violet poured on the agression attacking 3 pointts with roach/ling/muta, but grubby held despite being out of position and late reactions, eventually taking the game. (1) You don't need hydras to defend immortal/sentry if you engage in an open area, preferably on their side of the map giving you time to reinforce, but yes, hydras help. And you can get 60 drones before pumping army. 60 is the max tho. (2) Z's response to immortal/sentry all-in is the same as immortal/sentry expand: cut drones after 60 to produce a crap ton of roach-ling and attack. P isn't gaining anything from a metagame fake-out here. It may be a safe third--it hasn't been tested enough--but if it is, it's not because the opening forces Z to get hydras. (3) Good for Grubby. I'll check out the VOD when I get a chance. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
For the longest time (and still do) i open FFE -> 1SG +1 zealot on Metal. After the harass, I sit the 2 voidrays down each of the "lanes" (where watch towers are), to spot for stuff. Worst 2 worst I get surprised by mutas - but I only lose one VR. I am a terrible player (only mid/high master) - and I often lose one of my VR's during the zealot/VR harass, so I often build 3 VR's anyway. The VR's act as a deterrant to roaches - solely by the prescene that "hey if you attack, you're gonna lose your roaches eventually, so you better make it a big push". Obviously this doesn't apply to Stephano-style, as he's like "kill you anyway". 400 gas on SG units (2x VR, 1 Phoenix) -> whatever. I think if you go up to 4 phoenix, and are awesome with your scouting, you can delay the TC/+2 weapons untill you're safe. I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build. I would love to see Genius sit down and do his 1SG phoenix fast 3rd, against Stephano in a Bo11 or similar. Purely to analyze the games, offering no prize XDXD | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 19 2012 07:50 Severedevil wrote: A nexus only costs 400 minerals; less than that, if you're counting the supply it provides. If the Zerg is reacting sharply to your choice to claim plant a third nexus, you could perform essentially the same all-in (with a couple units fewer) for greater effect. I recall Terrans were frightened of Protoss going for a quick three nexuses and then cutting probes and busting their naturals... That isn't the point I am trying to make. The point I am making is that centerpiece of the matchup for Protoss is deception and hoping for an improper response by the Zerg. Of course the element of surprise should be available and help you in game. But the fact of the matter is IF the Zerg responds in the proper way to what your doing, your screwed. And it sucks that if you want to beat the Zerg as Protoss you have to trick them or hope they do something wrong. The Protoss shouldn't have to rely on the element of surprise. And right now they have to. Protoss doesn't really have something against the Zerg you can consider a "solid" build. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote: The issue with VR is that they can't kill roaches that are moving haha..... they eventually get out of range. For the longest time (and still do) i open FFE -> 1SG +1 zealot on Metal. After the harass, I sit the 2 voidrays down each of the "lanes" (where watch towers are), to spot for stuff. Worst 2 worst I get surprised by mutas - but I only lose one VR. I am a terrible player (only mid/high master) - and I often lose one of my VR's during the zealot/VR harass, so I often build 3 VR's anyway. The VR's act as a deterrant to roaches - solely by the prescene that "hey if you attack, you're gonna lose your roaches eventually, so you better make it a big push". Obviously this doesn't apply to Stephano-style, as he's like "kill you anyway". 400 gas on SG units (2x VR, 1 Phoenix) -> whatever. I think if you go up to 4 phoenix, and are awesome with your scouting, you can delay the TC/+2 weapons untill you're safe. I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build. I would love to see Genius sit down and do his 1SG phoenix fast 3rd, against Stephano in a Bo11 or similar. Purely to analyze the games, offering no prize XDXD Good post. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
.... I'm gonna start practicing my Zerg play.... | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On March 19 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote: I just realized that Zerg has a good reason to go double roach warren to research speed and burrow move at the same time. Would a 12 minute attack with both speed and burrow move be possible to defend? .... I'm gonna start practicing my Zerg play.... so scary, don't give them ideas.. | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 19 2012 08:15 kcdc wrote: (1) You don't need hydras to defend immortal/sentry if you engage in an open area, preferably on their side of the map giving you time to reinforce, but yes, hydras help. And you can get 60 drones before pumping army. 60 is the max tho. (2) Z's response to immortal/sentry all-in is the same as immortal/sentry expand: cut drones after 60 to produce a crap ton of roach-ling and attack. P isn't gaining anything from a metagame fake-out here. It may be a safe third--it hasn't been tested enough--but if it is, it's not because the opening forces Z to get hydras. (3) Good for Grubby. I'll check out the VOD when I get a chance. Hmm well I it just seems extremely difficult to have enough units to engage in a favorable position with roach/ling, as the protoss army should only be in the open when he's in transit, and having enough roach/ling to take that on during transit/that early would mean a massive drone cut, though I acknowledge that they will have less units as well and forcing ff usage is a pretty big deal. I could be wrong but the way it seems to me is: If they respect the possibility of the allin, they either: Prepare hydra den, or spam low eco roach/ling. If they prepare hydra, they won't be attacking. If they go roach/ling and attack, that's what the build is designed to defend. So either way the build accomplishes it's purpose. This is assuming the build is effective of course, which we need more high level games to go off of. Well I'm not saying it's a metagame fake-out, I'm just saying the zerg is forced to respect the possibility, and can't go up to 75 drones and 4 or 5 hatcheries without worry. Why is Z response the same? If the distinction could be easily made early on, it wouldn't be better to take a fourth, macro hatch, and complete saturation + tech? This seems like a better option than trying to break a third with roach/ling against a build that is theoretically designed to stop it. I mean this is all under assumption that the build is effective at defending a third vs roach ling, as I have been addressing some of the other issues people have been theorizing could come about with the build, aside from the 12 minute roach push. | ||
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sweetphoenix
13 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
This is precisely what I was saying in the Brown Losira thread, and kcdc told me to shift click roaches -.-. Meanwhile at the lonestar clash, we see grubby winning vs Violet and losing vs sleep with the build mentioned in the OP. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
The most common follow up for Stephano, after his 12roach max, is infester. Infester as we know, is the awesome 'soft counter to everything'. Except it's slow. Whichever harass you want to use, it should be multi-prong, but in low numbers (cost). | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On March 19 2012 09:07 chestnutcc wrote: This is precisely what I was saying in the Brown Losira thread, and kcdc told me to shift click roaches -.-. Meanwhile at the lonestar clash, we see grubby winning vs Violet and losing vs sleep with the build mentioned in the OP. Hmm I think KCDC was referring to my bit about Skill vs Build wins, not so much the description of my early -> mid game. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 19 2012 09:07 chestnutcc wrote: This is precisely what I was saying in the Brown Losira thread, and kcdc told me to shift click roaches -.-. Meanwhile at the lonestar clash, we see grubby winning vs Violet and losing vs sleep with the build mentioned in the OP. Shift clicking voids kill slow roaches, but it doesn't work against speed roaches. Slow roaches can be abused with a number of openings--that's why P gets a window to macro freely up till 10 or 11 minutes when roach speed finishes. Then Z brings the pain. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 19 2012 09:04 KhAmun wrote: Hmm well I it just seems extremely difficult to have enough units to engage in a favorable position with roach/ling, as the protoss army should only be in the open when he's in transit, and having enough roach/ling to take that on during transit/that early would mean a massive drone cut, though I acknowledge that they will have less units as well and forcing ff usage is a pretty big deal. I could be wrong but the way it seems to me is: If they respect the possibility of the allin, they either: Prepare hydra den, or spam low eco roach/ling. If they prepare hydra, they won't be attacking. If they go roach/ling and attack, that's what the build is designed to defend. So either way the build accomplishes it's purpose. This is assuming the build is effective of course, which we need more high level games to go off of. Well I'm not saying it's a metagame fake-out, I'm just saying the zerg is forced to respect the possibility, and can't go up to 75 drones and 4 or 5 hatcheries without worry. Why is Z response the same? If the distinction could be easily made early on, it wouldn't be better to take a fourth, macro hatch, and complete saturation + tech? This seems like a better option than trying to break a third with roach/ling against a build that is theoretically designed to stop it. I mean this is all under assumption that the build is effective at defending a third vs roach ling, as I have been addressing some of the other issues people have been theorizing could come about with the build, aside from the 12 minute roach push. Stephano's build is just drone to 60 and pump roach/ling. He doesn't drone to 75 without doing extreme pressure first. And so to answer your question no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game. He does by putting massive pressure on after droning to 60. Or just droning to 60 and holding off whatever allin with roach/ling. Because like he said that counters "all Protoss builds" aside from like a double stargate which obviously doesn't apply here as that's a completely different allin which I'm sure he is confident in being able to hold. | ||
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