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On March 13 2012 00:44 MintPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly. No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp). In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders.
Storm isn't strong at all against Hellions, if you land a good storm you will have a couple of hellions at about 40-50% HP or above. Doesn't seem too bad, especially as its very easy to go forward and snipe some templars if they come too close. Just shows that you never played with Hellions or never payed attention to them, if you move them out they really don't get a lot of damage as long as you react fast enough (and thanks to auto repair you can always have a small amount of scvs on auto repair with your army and let your army heal medivac style).
I backed my statements up, you didn't do anything except go for a comparison that at least for me doesn't make a lot of sense. What do I care if 4 Hellions beat 2 Stalkers or not? Its not like they have to, 10 Hellions do fine against 8 Stalkers and they are a lot easier to produce and cost less, meaning they actually are cost efficient (they are even more cost efficient against stalkers than against chargelots from my point of view). 2 Stalkers need a lot of time to kill Hellions, so you will have plenty of time to just move them away from the Stalkers.
Why do 2-3 reactor factory 1 or 2 base "all in" builds work in GSL Code S or A if hellions are horrible against gateway units?
Your harassment point doesn't make much sense for me either. Of course I won't drop hellions to snipe pylons, why would I do that. If they leave sentries at home thanks for the free gas, I'll 2-shot them. If they split their army, nice, free map control and/or time to push, thanks.
Of course its not the magic "I win" strategy, I never said it is. Of course it has flaws. Most of it for me right now is relying on the opponent doing mistakes, because they never played against it. But your position doesn't make sense from a strategy point of view because you don't adapt to the strength of the hellion but just say its weak because its not as good as the marauder if you use it like a marauder.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
About Hellions, I don't think anyone is arguing they are bad against Chargelots in a purely Hellion vs. Chargelot scenario. You can kite them forever, so either you take your time to kill the Chargelots or nobody loses anything. Your choice. Not bad.
Chargelots are very cost effective against Mech in engagements, in the sense that almost any amount of minerals you can trade for the Terran's gas is a good trade. And yes, in a final engagement, when Hellions are at the front, they will get wiped out by an equal or greater number of Chargelots, especially because of Tank splash. But that is bad army control by the Terran.
Thors should be at the front of a Mech army vs Protoss when they engage, always. You can use the hellions to draw the Chargelots 'Charge', and to tank the first few Immortal and Stalker shots while your tanks Siege. But after that you draw them behind and preferable to the sides of the Thors. 16 +1 BFH, when the Chargelots are clumping up on Thors, will evaporate them so scary fast. Armored Thors tank Chargelots amazingly well.
Hellions are also great for controlling towers, denying probe scouts, and for 'runbys'. If you have 4 Hellions tucked away for when the Protoss army moves out, they HAVE to leave units behind at each base or they are losing probes, warp ins won't cut it. Yes, there are situations that make them look horrible, there are also situations that make them look awesome. . Also, because Chargelots are so cheap and Stalkers are expensive, and Chargelots are really good for their cost, and Stalkers aren't at all, I think that Air is necessary when playing Mech. Banshees early-mid game, and then Battlecruisers when Stalker upgrades get too good. The more Stalkers he warps in a game, the better off you are. They cut into all of his tech units, and they are basically dead weight in straight up fights. More Stalkers = less Chargelots and less Tech units. In a lot of my games, they can be decided almost completely by how many Stalkers I force him to make.
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Has anyone attempted a Thor+Banshee combination... if you hit the right timing it can tear a protoss apart. unless they are 100% prepared
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On March 13 2012 12:50 ff7legend wrote: Has anyone attempted a Thor+Banshee combination... if you hit the right timing it can tear a protoss apart. unless they are 100% prepared
as you say it - thor and banshee builds are always built around timings - the simle reason beaing one unit - the HighTemplar.
i still think thor/banshee/marine/raven/viking/GHOST mixes are incredibly strong in lategame, at least in theory - the problem being that everything stays and falls with the ghost vs HT battles.
(this is theorycrafting in general, not about the specific build @ OP) in theory, the protoss has an incredibly hard time to get detection on with ravens, scans, vikings, thors and ghosts around - and both cloacked ghosts and banshees are impossible to deal without. furhtermore, thors tank a lot of dmg while marines and banshees have huge amounts of DPS - not talking about the effects of EMP.
thats how a fight CAN go. in reality, a fight is just as likely to go: observer sees ghosts, HTs snipe them, protoss moves in, feedbacks a shitton, has better upgrades (cant upgrade all 3 as terran), has observers behind his army and wins the fight. The problem is: the T army we talk about here is extremly gas-intensive - while it CAN be indestrucible, it can lose as well - and once the T army dies, its nearly impossible to replace it in time.
pretty much the same goes for mech (tank thor hellion viking) + ghost vs lategame P - while the mecharmy is stronger against any P combo, you are immobile and unable to replace your army fast enough once you lost big parts of it.
The only map in the current mappool where i see mech vs protoss being effective when played correctly, with tons of turrents, sensor towers, PFs in mid, blueflame hellion drops and rly turtleish ghostMECH is shakuras plateau.
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On March 13 2012 01:19 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 00:44 MintPanda wrote:On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly. No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp). In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders. Storm isn't strong at all against Hellions, if you land a good storm you will have a couple of hellions at about 40-50% HP or above. Doesn't seem too bad, especially as its very easy to go forward and snipe some templars if they come too close. Just shows that you never played with Hellions or never payed attention to them, if you move them out they really don't get a lot of damage as long as you react fast enough (and thanks to auto repair you can always have a small amount of scvs on auto repair with your army and let your army heal medivac style). I backed my statements up, you didn't do anything except go for a comparison that at least for me doesn't make a lot of sense. What do I care if 4 Hellions beat 2 Stalkers or not? Its not like they have to, 10 Hellions do fine against 8 Stalkers and they are a lot easier to produce and cost less, meaning they actually are cost efficient (they are even more cost efficient against stalkers than against chargelots from my point of view). 2 Stalkers need a lot of time to kill Hellions, so you will have plenty of time to just move them away from the Stalkers. Why do 2-3 reactor factory 1 or 2 base "all in" builds work in GSL Code S or A if hellions are horrible against gateway units? Your harassment point doesn't make much sense for me either. Of course I won't drop hellions to snipe pylons, why would I do that. If they leave sentries at home thanks for the free gas, I'll 2-shot them. If they split their army, nice, free map control and/or time to push, thanks. Of course its not the magic "I win" strategy, I never said it is. Of course it has flaws. Most of it for me right now is relying on the opponent doing mistakes, because they never played against it. But your position doesn't make sense from a strategy point of view because you don't adapt to the strength of the hellion but just say its weak because its not as good as the marauder if you use it like a marauder.
"Backing your statements up" on a theoretical basis is nothing better than what I am claiming so your point is null there. Your initial argument was the hellion's ability to harass effectively, which I pointed out it is far easier to deflect compared to a standard bio drop.
Secondly, you clearly haven't taken on a protoss player who has good micro control. Hellions poking back and forth to pick of templar is laughable without losing a significantly unfavourable exchange.
Regarding your point on "all-ins", there is an obvious reason why an "all-in" or powerful timing attack works. Why does a 3-1-1 all-in work with zero tech marines? Because it hits before key tech which will demolish tank/marine can be completed. That ontop of the fact that you're dedicating a significantly larger portion of your supply to a push. That applies similarly to hellions. They are about as good as zero tech marines in the mid/late game. Just like they are in TvZ. Proper tech will nullify the unit's purpose. In the case of mech, you're more or less aiming to duke it out endgame with a stronger ball than the toss ball. That doesn't work when 20 hellions will get 1 shot by 2 colossus. Just like how marines don't work because they get 1 shot by upgraded colossi. Unlike chargelots, which can take endless shots from your tanks (because they split quickly and naturally and don't take bonus splash) leaving them raw and open to the robo/archon force behind it.
Like I said, it takes so little to deflect a hellion drop that they do not need to split their army, unlike a more significant bio drop (8 stimmed marines can rip through stalkers easily if they're warped in one by one). That gives you zero map control, zero ability to push out.
10 hellions vs 8 stalkers makes no sense and is only going to be an efficient exchange if for some reason all your hellions splash everything at once, which doesn't happen. Even if you do some kind of 12 hellion drop or runby, that justifies the protoss splitting his army or pulling back or just breaking your front because you've dedicated so much to harass (1.2k minerals!).
From a strategy point of view, you are clearly speaking on theoretical grounds and optimal engagements which don't happen in a real game. You aren't going to catch 10 zealots walking around or gateway units separated so far from the main ball they get caught out by hellions, just like you don't randomly find tanks or 15/50 marines sitting in the middle of the map waiting for banelings to explode on them. I can tell you banelings can destroy marines, they're so cost effective! 2 banelings can kill 50 marines so therefore you only need banelings to pwn the marines and your 3/3 zergling will wipe the tanks. Who needs mutas? That clearly doesn't happen. T can marine split, stim and clean out your army before it reaches it. The same goes for a protoss ball.
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On March 13 2012 13:25 MintPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:19 Bommes wrote:On March 13 2012 00:44 MintPanda wrote:On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly. No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp). In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders. Storm isn't strong at all against Hellions, if you land a good storm you will have a couple of hellions at about 40-50% HP or above. Doesn't seem too bad, especially as its very easy to go forward and snipe some templars if they come too close. Just shows that you never played with Hellions or never payed attention to them, if you move them out they really don't get a lot of damage as long as you react fast enough (and thanks to auto repair you can always have a small amount of scvs on auto repair with your army and let your army heal medivac style). I backed my statements up, you didn't do anything except go for a comparison that at least for me doesn't make a lot of sense. What do I care if 4 Hellions beat 2 Stalkers or not? Its not like they have to, 10 Hellions do fine against 8 Stalkers and they are a lot easier to produce and cost less, meaning they actually are cost efficient (they are even more cost efficient against stalkers than against chargelots from my point of view). 2 Stalkers need a lot of time to kill Hellions, so you will have plenty of time to just move them away from the Stalkers. Why do 2-3 reactor factory 1 or 2 base "all in" builds work in GSL Code S or A if hellions are horrible against gateway units? Your harassment point doesn't make much sense for me either. Of course I won't drop hellions to snipe pylons, why would I do that. If they leave sentries at home thanks for the free gas, I'll 2-shot them. If they split their army, nice, free map control and/or time to push, thanks. Of course its not the magic "I win" strategy, I never said it is. Of course it has flaws. Most of it for me right now is relying on the opponent doing mistakes, because they never played against it. But your position doesn't make sense from a strategy point of view because you don't adapt to the strength of the hellion but just say its weak because its not as good as the marauder if you use it like a marauder. "Backing your statements up" on a theoretical basis is nothing better than what I am claiming so your point is null there. Your initial argument was the hellion's ability to harass effectively, which I pointed out it is far easier to deflect compared to a standard bio drop. Secondly, you clearly haven't taken on a protoss player who has good micro control. Hellions poking back and forth to pick of templar is laughable without losing a significantly unfavourable exchange. Regarding your point on "all-ins", there is an obvious reason why an "all-in" or powerful timing attack works. Why does a 3-1-1 all-in work with zero tech marines? Because it hits before key tech which will demolish tank/marine can be completed. That ontop of the fact that you're dedicating a significantly larger portion of your supply to a push. That applies similarly to hellions. They are about as good as zero tech marines in the mid/late game. Just like they are in TvZ. Proper tech will nullify the unit's purpose. In the case of mech, you're more or less aiming to duke it out endgame with a stronger ball than the toss ball. That doesn't work when 20 hellions will get 1 shot by 2 colossus. Just like how marines don't work because they get 1 shot by upgraded colossi. Unlike chargelots, which can take endless shots from your tanks (because they split quickly and naturally and don't take bonus splash) leaving them raw and open to the robo/archon force behind it. Like I said, it takes so little to deflect a hellion drop that they do not need to split their army, unlike a more significant bio drop (8 stimmed marines can rip through stalkers easily if they're warped in one by one). That gives you zero map control, zero ability to push out. 10 hellions vs 8 stalkers makes no sense and is only going to be an efficient exchange if for some reason all your hellions splash everything at once, which doesn't happen. Even if you do some kind of 12 hellion drop or runby, that justifies the protoss splitting his army or pulling back or just breaking your front because you've dedicated so much to harass (1.2k minerals!). From a strategy point of view, you are clearly speaking on theoretical grounds and optimal engagements which don't happen in a real game. You aren't going to catch 10 zealots walking around or gateway units separated so far from the main ball they get caught out by hellions, just like you don't randomly find tanks or 15/50 marines sitting in the middle of the map waiting for banelings to explode on them. I can tell you banelings can destroy marines, they're so cost effective! 2 banelings can kill 50 marines so therefore you only need banelings to pwn the marines and your 3/3 zergling will wipe the tanks. Who needs mutas? That clearly doesn't happen. T can marine split, stim and clean out your army before it reaches it. The same goes for a protoss ball.
Of course that doesn't happen against good players (as long as they know how good hellions are), but that means they run around in a big clump and its easy to control their army movement, which means you can position your tank/ghost/viking army very well which means you kind of have map control.
About that colossi 2-shotting hellion thing... You are highly theoretical there because hellions are like 3x faster than colossi. If you let the protoss storm into your army with hellion/tank you pretty much autolost the engagement right away. If you poke with your hellions on the other hand you will almost always get zealots charging after them (which is exactly what you want when you poke with the hellions) or he will draw he his colossi to the front so you can get a shot with all your vikings, which means in best case a free colossus. Being active with your army is essential, when I lose a game in TvP its either because I am too passive with my army / let my opponent get too good of a concave or because I made a stupid obvious mistake like losing too many hellions while harassing or not dealing with DTs correctly or something like that.
When do players with good micro begin on ladder? I'm working on being good enough to regularly play against opponents in GM and higher, but for that you probably have to wait another month or two. That's also because I'm hesitant to post a lot of replays right now, because there would be a lot of awkward mistakes on both sides, so it wouldn't have any value to show them. I'm not 100% sure the strategy is still good in case the Protossesget better. Maybe not, but thats what I want to find out.
Also, if you bio drop it needs twice the time to unload (if its marines) or is much harder to replace and costs gas (marauders). Also no other drop is as effective to kill workers as a hellion drop. Marines are good, but its simply no comparison. As soon as you have 1/1 upgrades (which should be around 12-15 minutes if I remember correctly) you will 2-shot workers with BFH, and if the workers run away they usually die all instead of escaping all.
About that 10 Hellion vs. 8 Stalker thing, of course it makes much more sense than your comparison, because I'm constantly active with my hellions. There is no way he can catch up (except if he has phoenixes), so I can happily run around and poke everywhere. If the Protoss decides he wants the Xel'Naga tower he thinks "Okay, if I go with my whole army he will run into my main, so I'll just send my stalkers". Wouldn't be the first time that I see that mistake.
About the counter attack thing, thats kind of true, but thats also the reason why mech is very specifically good for some maps and bad for others. If he is able to attack in huge concaves it is always hard to win against competent protosses. But no Protoss should light heartedly attack into a small ramp/a PF against tank/ghost/viking and a small amount of hellions, just because he saw 10-12 hellions on the map. Because he will lose all his workers and I will probably have a very cost effective exchange at my base, which means that I will win the game definitely if he doesn't completely overrun me right at this moment.
Its the same logic as zergling runbys, just with the difference that tank/viking/ghost is very strong in defensive positions (if you chose the position right), while zerg defensively is very strong on creep, so you can afford to run some units around. You make the opponent decide if he wants to commit to a counterattack or if he deals with the runby and wastes time with his army movement and time in which you can't get attacked and maybe even secure another base.
Also, more likely if you have 12 hellions on the map you don't want them to get cut off so you won't commit to run them into the enemy's base, because its very likely that he will come back and just kill them. The 12 hellions are not getting dropped, that doesn't make sense, actually you don't want more than 1 medivac at all the entire game (and even that not all the time, depends on the tech choice for protoss and the map), because they cost a huge amount of gas.
About backing it up, I posted a replay earlier. It is my last TvP played and not a good example because I don't use my hellions very well actually, but it at least should show the potential and should stop this senseless discussion right now.
edit: Actually I don't care that much anymore, if no one wants to discuss about hellions and everyone thinks thor/banshee/shenanigans is the way to go in TvP I'm fine with that, I don't want to convince anyone. I'm done with that
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Theorycrafting is nice, but with all due respect, I don't think this means anything to higher level players.
If you're catering to the diamond and below, awesome. There are MORE than enough players you will be helping. But don't pretend it's viable at high masters/gm level.
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I'd love to see I there's a correlation between the TL posters who vehemently say mech is not viable tho and the ones that vote republican
In all seriousness, I agree with Day9. Mech tvp just needs to be explored by good players, in the same way everyone explored Bio. Bio has major on-paper weaknesses vs protoss as well, but people found ways around them. With time (or with HOTS) mech tvp will be a thing.
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Maybe this was answered at some point in the thread, but why in the OP's build is he taking 2 refineries at 14 and leaving 1 scv in each? This is going to give him the same gas income as building 1 refinery and putting 2 scvs in it. If you don't need 4 workers in gas until your factory is done, why not time out the 2nd refinery so it finishes at the same time as the factory? This allows you to have more minerals earlier on, and get the expo and factory up sooner.
Or is the only purpose of taking both gasses to avoid your opponent stealing your gas? Sorry if I missed something obvious here, it just seems like taking both gasses and leaving 1 worker in each for a while is very suboptimal.
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sorry but n the dia level you can pretty much do anything and win, so unless your top masters you can really show good builds. i can bio/mech or mech in dia all iw ant and win but when you get to masters thats when you really need to get a good build so might want to try more games at higher levels before trying to show soem builds
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On March 13 2012 23:37 joebang wrote: sorry but n the dia level you can pretty much do anything and win, so unless your top masters you can really show good builds. i can bio/mech or mech in dia all iw ant and win but when you get to masters thats when you really need to get a good build so might want to try more games at higher levels before trying to show soem builds I am high master,as are some others people who posted here. And day9 showed even GM players in his mech daily, like Illusion
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
I'd like to change the topic of discussion in this thread from the usual "Is Mech viable?" (because we will just have to see and nobody is going to find out in a discussion), and discuss something we TvP Mechers can actively test.
What are some possible timing pushes when Meching in TvP? I feel like a lot of TvP Mech players think any push they do is an "all in", and so they turtle, max out, and then do their one big push and hope it works.
Ill start off with one I know for sure can work: After opening Cloak Banshee/Thor/Marine (Day9 Daily #396 Vile Illusion). If my Banshees do enough damage (12+ probe kills maybe?), I know I can follow up with a strong 3 Thor, +1 Mech Armor, ~20 Marine, Raven, and 3-4 Banshee Timing off 2-bases, if he hasn't decided to all in. I can make it an all in push if I decide to bring a bunch of SCV's for mass repair, or you can expand behind it and transition into a 3 base Siege Tank/Hellion/Ghost/Banshee/Raven composition.
So what timings have you guys discovered?
For example, I've found that going Ghost tech is stronger vs. a Protoss who heads down faster Templar tech (duhhh), and that adding on a second Tech Lab'd Starport is stronger against a Protoss who went for Colossus. What are some possible timings that arise when Protoss heads down a certain tech path?
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If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
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On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
i'm not really sure how buffing siege tank makes very much difference in tvz. banelings and zerglings already die in one shot with +1 vehicle, roaches in general aren't very viable outside of allining, the only possible issue is ultras and depending where on the side of "ultras are imba/useless" argument you fall buffing tank vs ultra is either a plus or nonissue.
tanks being useless vs protoss in general is an issue, but the bigger issue is that the hellions are the factory mineral dump and they're very useless unlike vultures with spider mines.
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On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
Buffing tanks vs toss while leaving them 100% untouched in other mu's is the easiest thing in the world.
You just have to fiddle with tank damage vs shields. Not like this is any rocket science, it was like that in bw; full (70) dmg to all shields.
How they decided to "target" the siege tank (the initiator) instead of the bio (the actual damage) when nerfing the 111 specifically vs protoss (when all the tanks really do is poke at the protoss to force him to fight (or fall way back)). That is what makes things seem grim, buffing tanks vs toss would take no time at all if they wanted to.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 14 2012 15:55 Grebliv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO. Buffing tanks vs toss while leaving them 100% untouched in other mu's is the easiest thing in the world. You just have to fiddle with tank damage vs shields. Not like this is any rocket science, it was like that in bw; full (70) dmg to all shields. How they decided to "target" the siege tank (the initiator) instead of the bio (the actual damage) when nerfing the 111 specifically vs protoss (when all the tanks really do is poke at the protoss to force him to fight (or fall way back)). That is what makes things seem grim, buffing tanks vs toss would take no time at all if they wanted to.
Because Terran needs a buff to the 1-1-1 all-in. Heart of the swarm will hopefully buff mech vs. toss with the battle hellion (good answer to mass chargelots) and the warhound (+damage vs. anything mechanical, which, if I'm right, is everything Protoss has except the zealot, high templar, and dark templar). Tanks right now are already very good in certain timings, making them better would make those timings overpowered as all hell. Unfortunately, Protoss just has some tech that they can get later on that makes tanks obsolete in the matchup. The only way to fix that right now, in my opinion, would be to add an upgrade that makes tanks better vs. Toss without really improving them vs. Terran and Zerg (maybe an EMP shell upgrade or something that makes them do extra shield damage).
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Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
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On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
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On March 14 2012 16:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 15:55 Grebliv wrote:On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO. Buffing tanks vs toss while leaving them 100% untouched in other mu's is the easiest thing in the world. You just have to fiddle with tank damage vs shields. Not like this is any rocket science, it was like that in bw; full (70) dmg to all shields. How they decided to "target" the siege tank (the initiator) instead of the bio (the actual damage) when nerfing the 111 specifically vs protoss (when all the tanks really do is poke at the protoss to force him to fight (or fall way back)). That is what makes things seem grim, buffing tanks vs toss would take no time at all if they wanted to. Because Terran needs a buff to the 1-1-1 all-in. Heart of the swarm will hopefully buff mech vs. toss with the battle hellion (good answer to mass chargelots) and the warhound (+damage vs. anything mechanical, which, if I'm right, is everything Protoss has except the zealot, high templar, and dark templar). Tanks right now are already very good in certain timings, making them better would make those timings overpowered as all hell. Unfortunately, Protoss just has some tech that they can get later on that makes tanks obsolete in the matchup. The only way to fix that right now, in my opinion, would be to add an upgrade that makes tanks better vs. Toss without really improving them vs. Terran and Zerg (maybe an EMP shell upgrade or something that makes them do extra shield damage).
I was just pointing out that their methodology when nerfing the 111 was targeting the easy siege tank instead of touching the actual reason the tanks helped (they help force bio down the tosses throat when he's weak to it), when the actual fight starts you'd want that food in more m&m anyways. It's kind of a band aid fix in some ways.
An upgrade would be a good solution.
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