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Hello everyone,
I'm a North American Player in the Bronze league (woohoo >.>) and I feel like I'm trapped here, but that's not why I'm making this thread. Lately I've been losing to protoss opponents when they use fast immortals. I don't want to call it an immortal "rush" per se, because it's not terrible fast, but it's not exactly a slow push either.
I just lost a game about an hour ago to this strategy and I honestly can't figure out what I did wrong. I had a decent unit composition as well as upgrades and I felt like I was producing as fast as possible, although there were a few points where my minerals started to stack up, but I just feel like this guy's forces cut through mine like butter for no real reason.
Here's the replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?7mayw9q6ebylru7
I appreciate any advice and pointers, pretaining to this strategy or just in general, I just started playing a little under a month ago.
Thanks! :D
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There's a couple reasons.
One: When you attacked him, you move commanded. Always press a, then click when you want to attack.
Two: Your production facilities were not always producing. That is always a bad thing.
Three: You went marine marauder TANK. I understand tanks are good against stalkers, but vs protoss, I would never make tanks, unless you are committing to mech. They are too immobile and they don't fare well against protoss troops.
Four: You expanded, then attacked immediately. While attacking and expanding is a good thing, you can't expect your attack to be its best if you JUST expanded and are still investing in buildings.
Five: You didn't have your tanks sieged. Not bad for bronze, but you aren't utilizing the tank strongly if you don't do that.
Six: Investing in thor tech wasn't a good idea. You knew he had immortals; immortals>thor
Not bad for bronze. Work on your macro, then worry about composition, and micro. Also, watch pro-replays to see how they deal with certain units if you are having serious trouble.
But honestly, above all, it came down to macro.
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i don't know if you noticed but you had your entire army on move command when you went to attack and lost practically everything before your units even attempted to attack. although even had you engaged perfectly with tanks sieged he had a lot more supply tied up in army than you did(mainly because you had expanded where as he hadn't) and it was a much better unit composition so you would have had a hard time dealing with his army regardless.
if you want to use tank based play in tvp you really want to accompany them with mainly marines, which are great against immortals, sentries, zealots and aren't exactly terrible vs stalkers either. although marine, tank becomes considerably worse when protoss starts to tech up to storm / colossus / charge and archons so i'd suggest sticking to marine, marauder, medivac play until you become more comfortable with the game as it's easier to use and has more staying power.
remember to keep making scvs, you should be trying to constantly produce scvs from both command centres for around the first 10 minutes of the game, even though you were on 2 bases the protoss had a better economy because his main base had great saturation where both of yours were very poorly saturated.
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Theres also tons of starter strategie guides that can help you in the game.
In short these are some basics of the Terran race in terms of unit counters
Basically marines ( as long as your not terribly behind on upgrades) deal extremely well with most units except Storming high templar, Collosus with range, siege tanks, infestors and banelings.
This basically means they trade cost efficiently (10 marines kill 5 stalkers, 500 minerals kills 750 minerals / 250 gas),
or you should have a much larger number vs some units, Marines kill battlecruisers.
So, the core of your army should always be marines, in the bronze league try experimenting around with getting only marines and playing vs your opponents, dont worry about other units to make - just go for mass marines with stim, combatshield and maybe some upgrades.
So most basic strategies of a terran going Bio always go around
Marines and SCVs
Other units just offer you different tools to do other things.
Marauders - Concussive shell lets you slow units that would otherwise run away. Marauders have higher hitpoints, dont die so quickly to Area of effect spells and block more space letting storm for example hit fewer units. Marauders also profit from stim and the same upgrades as marines = marine marauder strategies.
Reapers, a unit that generally should only be used to scout or harass an economy line. dies quickly, builds a long time and cant kill many combat units. Isnt used in army compositions due to its bad damage vs non light units.
Ghosts, Casters that will let you deal with Casters such as Infestors and templar.
Starport units used in Bio builds
Vikings - Deal with the counter to bio : colossus
Medivacs, used to drop marines and marauders, heal them after they stimmed
But as long as your in bronze - Learn to make many marines from a good economy, thats just a great way to start learning the game
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I don't know why bronze league players make these threads. When you are producing less than 10 percent of the time, strategy is pointless. The counter to anything in bronze league is to maek units.
User was temp banned for this post.
User was temporarily forum banned for this post.
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On February 21 2012 12:36 coriamon wrote:
There's a couple reasons.
One: When you attacked him, you move commanded. Always press a, then click when you want to attack.
Two: Your production facilities were not always producing. That is always a bad thing.
Three: You went marine marauder TANK. I understand tanks are good against stalkers, but vs protoss, I would never make tanks, unless you are committing to mech. They are too immobile and they don't fare well against protoss troops.
Four: You expanded, then attacked immediately. While attacking and expanding is a good thing, you can't expect your attack to be its best if you JUST expanded and are still investing in buildings.
Five: You didn't have your tanks sieged. Not bad for bronze, but you aren't utilizing the tank strongly if you don't do that.
Six: Investing in thor tech wasn't a good idea. You knew he had immortals; immortals>thor
Not bad for bronze. Work on your macro, then worry about composition, and micro. Also, watch pro-replays to see how they deal with certain units if you are having serious trouble.
But honestly, above all, it came down to macro.
Hang on, I always thought Thor>immortal?.... and I'm plat lol.
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I hate to say it, and I'm sure you've heard it before, but you can win every game by simply out macroing and out producing your opponent. Make sure you stay safe, do safe builds get economically ahead and just mass units. Keep good scouting habits so that you dont die to 6port battlecruiser off one base, and just play standard games all the way up to diamond league. Then start worrying about compositions.
Hope this helps 
User was warned for this post
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Russian Federation676 Posts
On February 21 2012 13:03 xlava wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm sure you've heard it before, but you can win every game by simply out macroing and out producing your opponent. Make sure you stay safe, do safe builds get economically ahead and just mass units. Keep good scouting habits so that you dont die to 6port battlecruiser off one base, and just play standard games all the way up to diamond league. Then start worrying about compositions. Hope this helps
thats correct, unless you keep giving your army for free on move command :D no macro would help
P.S. make units, move a - win. strategy later
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Thanks a lot, really appreciate it. I've been experimenting with some 1/1/1 variations lately but before I was playing more marine/marauder heavy with just a few tanks in the rear for the distance and splash.
I'll try the idea of massing marines though, seems interesting, and like you said it would probably help me focus more on macro. I usually don't make mistakes like commanding instead of a-moving, but I was caught up in building units or something at the time.
Also, killer, you mentioned my mineral line saturation, I've been having a little trouble with that lately. When I expand, how many SCV's should I move over to the expo?
Thanks again!
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On February 21 2012 13:03 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 12:36 coriamon wrote:
There's a couple reasons.
One: When you attacked him, you move commanded. Always press a, then click when you want to attack.
Two: Your production facilities were not always producing. That is always a bad thing.
Three: You went marine marauder TANK. I understand tanks are good against stalkers, but vs protoss, I would never make tanks, unless you are committing to mech. They are too immobile and they don't fare well against protoss troops.
Four: You expanded, then attacked immediately. While attacking and expanding is a good thing, you can't expect your attack to be its best if you JUST expanded and are still investing in buildings.
Five: You didn't have your tanks sieged. Not bad for bronze, but you aren't utilizing the tank strongly if you don't do that.
Six: Investing in thor tech wasn't a good idea. You knew he had immortals; immortals>thor
Not bad for bronze. Work on your macro, then worry about composition, and micro. Also, watch pro-replays to see how they deal with certain units if you are having serious trouble.
But honestly, above all, it came down to macro. Hang on, I always thought Thor>immortal?.... and I'm plat lol.
Test this out sir. Thors beat immortals with the cannon upgrade. However, they are not cost effective at killing immortals. First, you need to build an armory, and a factory with a techlab, and research the cannon upgrade. Then you need to build the thor. See how that adds up?
Second, in bronze league, I would never count on micro. You would need to MAKE SURE that you use the cannon on the immortal immediately.
If you don't get the upgrade, the immortal destroys the thor. Even with the upgrade, the immortal can kill the thor. 100% of the time, marines are more cost effective and better than thors because they are more mobile and have higher DPS.
Honestly, I would suggest that you NEVER build thors in TvP unless you are thor rushing, or going mech. And if you are going mech, I would suggest you have awesome micro.
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On February 21 2012 13:06 MadeOfPotato wrote:
Also, killer, you mentioned my mineral line saturation, I've been having a little trouble with that lately. When I expand, how many SCV's should I move over to the expo?
Thanks again!
This is a somewhat unimportant question to ask. It is all about personal preference. For example:
Situation 1: PvT, I 1gate expand, constantly chrono boosting probes on my nexus, and when my nat nexus comes up, I transfer excess probes and rally my main nexus to my main minerals, and my nat nexus to my nat minerals. I do this so that I get the benefit of a better saturation quicker, and since I'm already oversaturated in my main, it makes sense.
Situation 2: PvZ, I nexus first or FFE. In this case, I will not transfer probes, since by the time my nat nexus comes up, I won't be saturated in my main yet. This way I don't lose a huge amount of income when transferring.
Hopefully this makes sense. But again, the differences are so negligible that it really doesn't matter what you do, even in my league (masters). It will make 0 difference in a bronze game in regards to victory or defeat.
gl
EDIT: In response to the warning on my previous post, I've decided to watch the replay and give you analysis anyway.
Game Analysis+ Show Spoiler +1. @:30 your SCV production falters, don't forget to keep hitting that s button! 2. Get your gas on 13, not 12. It allows for constant SCV production. Although its not a big thing and is irrelevant now, getting basics like starting bread and butter builds down right will help you in the future. 3. @4:30 your SCV production starts faltering again. 4. Whats with that bunker placement? It won't do you any good all the way back there. I would move it up 3 hexes so that it will cover your ramp. 5. You stop making siege tanks around @7:00, and waste almost an entire production cycle. You're floating 250 gas a minute later to show for it. 6. 19 SCVs @9:00, I would go into a custom game and play against very easy AI and just practice your SCV production until it gets non stop. 7. Pause the game @10:45, right before the battle. His army is a full 700 minerals and 150 gas more than yours. He has also had more workers than you for longer, probably the reason for this unfortunate fact. 8. You also move command into his army, and kill nothing while losing everything -_- , to a move, press A then left click on the screen. Hope this helps. Bottom line, keep building SCVs, don't move command
note to the mods + Show Spoiler +I don't expect my warning taken away, thats not why I did this, I didn't realized I hadn't followed the rules -_-
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On February 21 2012 12:36 coriamon wrote:
One: When you attacked him, you move commanded. Always press a, then click when you want to attack.
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Oh man, totally made my day.
2OP U actually shouldn't worry about what your enemy is producing, while in bronze.
I'm pretty sure that you can just build a limit of units and a-move via minimap to get to gold league (at least).
Read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187162 you'll find it helpful.
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On February 22 2012 06:02 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 13:06 MadeOfPotato wrote:
Also, killer, you mentioned my mineral line saturation, I've been having a little trouble with that lately. When I expand, how many SCV's should I move over to the expo?
Thanks again! This is a somewhat unimportant question to ask. It is all about personal preference. For example: Situation 1: PvT, I 1gate expand, constantly chrono boosting probes on my nexus, and when my nat nexus comes up, I transfer excess probes and rally my main nexus to my main minerals, and my nat nexus to my nat minerals. I do this so that I get the benefit of a better saturation quicker, and since I'm already oversaturated in my main, it makes sense. Situation 2: PvZ, I nexus first or FFE. In this case, I will not transfer probes, since by the time my nat nexus comes up, I won't be saturated in my main yet. This way I don't lose a huge amount of income when transferring. Hopefully this makes sense. But again, the differences are so negligible that it really doesn't matter what you do, even in my league (masters). It will make 0 difference in a bronze game in regards to victory or defeat. gl EDIT: In response to the warning on my previous post, I've decided to watch the replay and give you analysis anyway. Game Analysis+ Show Spoiler +1. @:30 your SCV production falters, don't forget to keep hitting that s button! 2. Get your gas on 13, not 12. It allows for constant SCV production. Although its not a big thing and is irrelevant now, getting basics like starting bread and butter builds down right will help you in the future. 3. @4:30 your SCV production starts faltering again. 4. Whats with that bunker placement? It won't do you any good all the way back there. I would move it up 3 hexes so that it will cover your ramp. 5. You stop making siege tanks around @7:00, and waste almost an entire production cycle. You're floating 250 gas a minute later to show for it. 6. 19 SCVs @9:00, I would go into a custom game and play against very easy AI and just practice your SCV production until it gets non stop. 7. Pause the game @10:45, right before the battle. His army is a full 700 minerals and 150 gas more than yours. He has also had more workers than you for longer, probably the reason for this unfortunate fact. 8. You also move command into his army, and kill nothing while losing everything -_- , to a move, press A then left click on the screen. Hope this helps. Bottom line, keep building SCVs, don't move command note to the mods + Show Spoiler +I don't expect my warning taken away, thats not why I did this, I didn't realized I hadn't followed the rules -_-
Thanks, I really appreciate it. I knew how to a-move though lol, it was just an an accident that time. I'll definitely keep practicing keeping my SCV production constant, as it seems that's where everyone seems to be saying the root of the problem is. Thanks again.
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On February 22 2012 07:01 MadeOfPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:02 xlava wrote:On February 21 2012 13:06 MadeOfPotato wrote:
Also, killer, you mentioned my mineral line saturation, I've been having a little trouble with that lately. When I expand, how many SCV's should I move over to the expo?
Thanks again! This is a somewhat unimportant question to ask. It is all about personal preference. For example: Situation 1: PvT, I 1gate expand, constantly chrono boosting probes on my nexus, and when my nat nexus comes up, I transfer excess probes and rally my main nexus to my main minerals, and my nat nexus to my nat minerals. I do this so that I get the benefit of a better saturation quicker, and since I'm already oversaturated in my main, it makes sense. Situation 2: PvZ, I nexus first or FFE. In this case, I will not transfer probes, since by the time my nat nexus comes up, I won't be saturated in my main yet. This way I don't lose a huge amount of income when transferring. Hopefully this makes sense. But again, the differences are so negligible that it really doesn't matter what you do, even in my league (masters). It will make 0 difference in a bronze game in regards to victory or defeat. gl EDIT: In response to the warning on my previous post, I've decided to watch the replay and give you analysis anyway. Game Analysis+ Show Spoiler +1. @:30 your SCV production falters, don't forget to keep hitting that s button! 2. Get your gas on 13, not 12. It allows for constant SCV production. Although its not a big thing and is irrelevant now, getting basics like starting bread and butter builds down right will help you in the future. 3. @4:30 your SCV production starts faltering again. 4. Whats with that bunker placement? It won't do you any good all the way back there. I would move it up 3 hexes so that it will cover your ramp. 5. You stop making siege tanks around @7:00, and waste almost an entire production cycle. You're floating 250 gas a minute later to show for it. 6. 19 SCVs @9:00, I would go into a custom game and play against very easy AI and just practice your SCV production until it gets non stop. 7. Pause the game @10:45, right before the battle. His army is a full 700 minerals and 150 gas more than yours. He has also had more workers than you for longer, probably the reason for this unfortunate fact. 8. You also move command into his army, and kill nothing while losing everything -_- , to a move, press A then left click on the screen. Hope this helps. Bottom line, keep building SCVs, don't move command note to the mods + Show Spoiler +I don't expect my warning taken away, thats not why I did this, I didn't realized I hadn't followed the rules -_- Thanks, I really appreciate it. I knew how to a-move though lol, it was just an an accident that time. I'll definitely keep practicing keeping my SCV production constant, as it seems that's where everyone seems to be saying the root of the problem is. Thanks again.
lol no problem
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Just a little update- I've won 3 games in under 10-12mins each just focusing on mechanics and building only rax (except for a factory, ebay and armory just so I could upgrade the marines), only with 1 gas and I've been just destroying my opponents. I never thought good macro could make such a difference! I probably sound like a broken record, but thanks again! :DD
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On February 22 2012 11:55 MadeOfPotato wrote:
Just a little update- I've won 3 games in under 10-12mins each just focusing on mechanics and building only rax (except for a factory, ebay and armory just so I could upgrade the marines), only with 1 gas and I've been just destroying my opponents. I never thought good macro could make such a difference! I probably sound like a broken record, but thanks again! :DD
Keep it up and you'll be diamond or so in no time. I'm completely serious. Perfect your mechanics in a lower league and you avoid much of the hardship many people have to endure when they cheese their way up.
I recommend looking up some standard builds too, since you don't want to be stuck on only marines and marauders!!! Add some medivacs in there once you start to float extra minerals and gas and your army becomes twice as cost efficient.
Anyway, we're glad to help.
glhf
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EPT
