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Canada13372 Posts
On February 17 2012 01:33 Sated wrote: You should be able to FFE on this map. The natural is quite small, so it only takes a couple of forcefields to force enemy units into your cannons. Definitely better than attempting to FFE on Metalopolis (which I wouldn't advise) and probably safer than a FFE on Shattered Temple (which I usually attempt) too.
However, like other people have mentioned above, I don't like the positioning of the third (for the reasons mentioned above). What this means for Protoss players is that we need to be punishing Zerg players who try to take that third base by using an aggressive strategy. There are lots of places to hide high-ground pylons on the opponents side of the map, so most Gateway all-ins are going to be really strong.
But then you hit a special problem similar to 4 gate TDA PvP. We know and expect a 2 base all in, so Zerg does something that is meant to hold it. But maybe you dont all in then maybe they prepare wrongly, but then they get aggressive -- weird psychological loop that ends in idk whats going on.
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I have enjoyed the challenge of defending the multiple attack paths on this map. I'm only diamond, but when I have decent obs spread and cannon/gate off the third, I have been able to bait roaches, FF the army and split it up.
The spread out bases are difficult for Z to defend as well when I use WP harass.
I played a 54-minute game where my opponent and I mined out almost every mineral patch. GG.
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Build a semi wall at every choke with gate when going for third with zealot guarding or sentry. Should have enough resources for that and will probably be good time to add gates at that point anyways . Should just stick to two bases and try and harass for sometime though from 1 gate expo)
Do know that its the same for your opponent. Split up the zerg army (warp prism) and go kill his expos.
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On February 15 2012 23:48 KraVe wrote: Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?
If you do a 1 gate expand, you need to push out before 8:00 with ~ 4 gate production to punish any greedy thirds.
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On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked.
Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis.
Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points.
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On February 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked. Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis. Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points.
Could you upload a couple of replays to study? I'm not sure what timing I should shoot for or where to attack exactly because of the huge walking distance....
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On February 17 2012 00:17 kcdc wrote: FFE works fine, but is it worth trying to take a third? I didn't play Korhal before it joined the ladder, and that third base looks pretty nasty. The overlooking high ground isn't too scary vs Z, but the distance between your natural and third and the way that the path requires you to expose your army to a massive flank in order to move between those bases looks like it will cause a lot of losses.
I've been going for 2-base timings on Korhal vs Z. Maybe my zealot-void-templar-immortal strategy would work tho since zealots don't fear flanks like sentries and colossi do.
The good thing is that watchtower covers both flanking paths and there's a random elevated platform in the middle of the flanking path there for you to put a void ray where zerg can't see it unless they have a spotter overlord.
Also the high ground is too far from the nexus to get fired at.
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On February 17 2012 06:35 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked. Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis. Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points. Could you upload a couple of replays to study? I'm not sure what timing I should shoot for or where to attack exactly because of the huge walking distance....
I've been doing a really strong 2-base all-in that I copied from SlayerScrank's stream. Basically, it's a +1 zealot void harass at 8 minutes building void count to 3 and killing what Z gives you, then warp in ~8 sentries at home, get a robo and 7 gates, and all-in at about 14 minutes with immortals, stalkers, sentries and your 3 voids. I saw crank crush nestea pretty hard on ladder with it, and I've been using it a lot since. I think I'm like 10-3 with the strategy.
It works well on Korhal because the ridge overlooking the third is powerful proxy pylon location for your zealot harass, and it's difficult for Z to deny. The 14 minute all-in is also quite strong on Korhal because you can attack along the side path and hit the backdoor entrance to the third which keeps you in close quarters through pretty much the whole attack route. This is obviously great for forcefields, and it also favors your voids since they float over your army and effectively increase the size of your concave in the close quarters.
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I mostly go FFE on Korhal Compound and just use Hallucination and scout zerg that's it won 2/2 of my games so far! :D
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On February 17 2012 11:26 Adventure wrote: I mostly go FFE on Korhal Compound and just use Hallucination and scout zerg that's it won 2/2 of my games so far! :D
I've been getting beaten every time by Barrin when I forge FE. He either 1 or 2 base all-ins and destroys me. The forge FE is risky with such a wide natural entrance- although you just have to make sure you can defend roach or hydra all-ins (if you go stargate). Otherwise I'd say that a 1gate or 3gate expand is safer on ladder.
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On February 17 2012 09:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:35 Mikelius wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked. Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis. Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points. Could you upload a couple of replays to study? I'm not sure what timing I should shoot for or where to attack exactly because of the huge walking distance.... I've been doing a really strong 2-base all-in that I copied from SlayerScrank's stream. Basically, it's a +1 zealot void harass at 8 minutes building void count to 3 and killing what Z gives you, then warp in ~8 sentries at home, get a robo and 7 gates, and all-in at about 14 minutes with immortals, stalkers, sentries and your 3 voids. I saw crank crush nestea pretty hard on ladder with it, and I've been using it a lot since. I think I'm like 10-3 with the strategy. It works well on Korhal because the ridge overlooking the third is powerful proxy pylon location for your zealot harass, and it's difficult for Z to deny. The 14 minute all-in is also quite strong on Korhal because you can attack along the side path and hit the backdoor entrance to the third which keeps you in close quarters through pretty much the whole attack route. This is obviously great for forcefields, and it also favors your voids since they float over your army and effectively increase the size of your concave in the close quarters.
that sounds great, gonna go try that. I've been having lots of problem holding the 3rd on Korhal, the FFE is no problem. But if I dont cripple the zerg before I take the 3rd I have massing problems with run bys on my 3rd cos often times my attack path does not cover the 3rd at all. I feel the zerg is able to position his army to defend his 3rd and 4th easily and counter pressure cos of the relatively short distances. IDK if its a personal problem of mine or it really is the case in PvZ on the map.
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From a zerg perspective, I think you can FFE very safely. I don't really try to bust FFE's very much, but I think you're safe here. As for builds later, I feel the void +1 zealot pressure is super strong here with a pylon on the highground above the third. Gateway timings are also pretty good because there are a ton of chokes (the doodads create 2-3 FF walls as well)
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the same goes for zerg though. it is really easy to deny zerg's 3rd as well. it's so open you can wrap in some units to natural then snipe the 3rd with stalkers and run away for free.
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On February 17 2012 11:51 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:26 Adventure wrote: I mostly go FFE on Korhal Compound and just use Hallucination and scout zerg that's it won 2/2 of my games so far! :D I've been getting beaten every time by Barrin when I forge FE. He either 1 or 2 base all-ins and destroys me. The forge FE is risky with such a wide natural entrance- although you just have to make sure you can defend roach or hydra all-ins (if you go stargate). Otherwise I'd say that a 1gate or 3gate expand is safer on ladder.
I agree with you but i like FFE because of the early Speedling pressure but if you keep scouting the zerg you would know what build he is going for i would try to post some ladder replays soon. (not the best.)
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FFE or Yuffe its fine in new maps. i go for agresive 2 base play too, so annoying multi pronged roach/ling/muta agression in this map.
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On February 19 2012 04:26 RRDjhonn wrote:
FFE or Yuffe its fine in new maps. i go for agresive 2 base play too, so annoying multi pronged roach/ling/muta agression in this map.
what does yuffe mean
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I don't see any problems with FFE on Korhal really. I always wall off my choke with forge,gate,cyber and a pylon, leaving a small gap next to it for zealots to block. I mean, if someone is not comfortable with a (blocked) hole in their wall, it may seem weird to FFE there, but as it goes for me, I always open with 4gate +1 zealot pressure after FFE, so I need to have a gap for zealots and probes to slip through anyway.
Obviously, general rules still apply for cheese scouting, because especially baneling busts can be really deadly with the zealot gap. However, when u put ur second pylon at the very side of your wall where the gap for the zealot will be, u are always able to simply wall off the "weak spot" quickly and defend cheeses the same way u would on shakuras.
I wall off the same way at the ramp on Antiga and don't see any problems with it at all. =)
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I personally go for a completely different approach on this map, personally i dont think the 3rd is very difficult to defend at all vs ground zerg, and you get a free 4th base in the process. The key is controlling the watchtower
http://drop.sc/114698 A replay vs a good zerg, showing the walloff with the greediest of openings 17 nexus 17 forge 17 gateway pylon - cannon, preventing ling runbys off a 14 pool
Feel free to give me feedback on this base management.
I know the zerg didnt see the wall, but im sure i could have warped in sentries and attacked him from the back with my main army.
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As everyone's been saying FFE is the way to go on this map. But I'd like to add that I've been having a lot of success with Killer's super fast warp prism into 8 gate with 3 immortal timing. It's incredibly safe because you are constantly producing out of your first gate (3 zealots and a stalker) and then your robo is finishing for any potential roach timings. The drop happens fast and lines up with your first 4 gates and +1. If he doesn't have roach tech you warp in with it, if he does you add on the 4 additional gates, clear creep (with the warp prism) and produce sentries at home. The drop also accomplishes scouting for lair timing/spire tech, and you can transition to a 2nd expansion if you feel like you can't hit your timing before mutas.
It didn't look all that impressive against MacSed but since he did the exact same build 2 games in a row I thought that there must be something to it, I hit the ladder with it and it feels incredibly strong.
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