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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
On January 06 2012 12:51 risk.nuke wrote: I'm not reading anything that long tonight, it's 5 am and I'm only up because sweden are fucking bosses at hockey!! Risk, who do you want to lynch? and why? | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
lastly, we are 1 vote away from scum hammering Palmar(if he isn't one) | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 06 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote: By the way, we are lynching someone tomorrow. Day1 no-lynch gives little for town, where even a mislynch will help us start tracing scum much better. The Day 1 deadline is at January 08 2012 10:00. (That's approximately 1 day, 20:47:58 from now.) | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 06 2012 12:26 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Grackaroni: + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 09:06 Grackaroni wrote: That's basically one of the reasons I'm suspicious. You post a lot at the start and then when scumhunting begins you disappear, not that you didn't scumhunt at the start. The only meta I got from you was that you seemed like somebody who posted a lot and spent a lot of time scumhunting in that game. I should have looked into more recent games but what's wrong with letting me think that of you? the first part of your quote strikes me the wrong way because I get the feeling that you just wanted to downplay my abilities, you don't care if I accuse you and think my opinion should be worth less than a veteran like syllogism. You've done nothing to change my mind, the only person you call scummy is me and your reasoning is that you think my case against you is shitty + you add in my opinion of bluelightz which I don't think you would have even mentioned if I didn't accuse you. Next you make some posts about people lurking and leave. You haven't been scumhunting but you keep giving me reasons to believe that you have lots of time to do so : [previous game with lots of scumhunting and posting, early signup, post a lot on strategies at the start of the game (early to find out it started too) quick to see my post and has time to defend yourself] You're definitely holding back in your posting. Yes, I give your opinion less weight than I give syllo's. If you want to change that, be correct as often as he is over the course of many games. I am often around, as I work from a computer all day, but my availability fluctuates. I found out about this game through a PM for early signups from Zona, so yes I found out about it pretty early, I don't see what that has to do with anything. If you check when I usually start posting during the day, you will find that it is often around the time you posted your accusations against me. I am not holding back in my posts, I just like to get at least something from everyone before I really start making judgements. If you actually cared, you could easily look up my more recent play and you'd find that I tend to ask a lot of questions during games and I don't usually do a ton of case-building day 1 and realize your meta-argument is useless. If you think inactivity is a scum tell for me, be sure to read day 1 of election mafia. I did roughly nothing, I was town. Basically what I am trying to say is, you are wasting time/effort tunneling me and I'd appreciate it if you put in the effort needed to realize that. Speaking of asking questions, you ignored my question regarding bluelightz. Anyway, on to more useful topics. Re: Palmar I agree that his lack of activity is suspicious and rather out of the ordinary for him, but I am wondering if it is worthwhile to risk lynching a potentially very strong scum-hunter on the grounds of not caring this early into the game. I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. I'd also like to hear syllo's opinion on the matter, since if I am not mistaken syllo is usually quite good at reading Palmar. (If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me) @Refallen You seem more aggressive/bold in your defense than the past two games of yours that I just took a quick look back at. Have any explanation in particular for that? RE: Palmar That's never a good reason to keep a player you think is scummy alive. I've seen way too many towns fold into the idea that if a person is a vet or strong player, we ought to keep them alive until the endgame. This type of thinking is dangerous, because it lets them live without doing anything if they're scum, and then come in again later in the game and exert control over a weakened town. If you think someone is scum, you lynch them. Also, my reason for lynching Palmar is, again, not because of his activity or lack thereof, it's about his behaviour. Even though his behaviour is made even worse by his activity, in the end, it still comes down to how he acts, and what he says. On January 06 2012 12:34 Zephirdd wrote: Bluelightz, if you havent got your clue from our previous posts, a full null list is useless. Don't do it. If you want to post a list, post a list of players you think are scum, not a read on every single player. Keep these to yourself, because they don't help at all. I agree that Palmar looks waaay too calm, too passive if you want. That's not the usual dayvig-claiming Palmar that I'm used to, not the usual president-Palmar I'm used to. And certainly not the aggressive town Palmar I'm used to. The only reason I see for a town Palmar to do that is that he would want to avoid getting shot n1, but any decent scum team will shoot him n1 regardless unless he is actually disruptive(which he is pretty capable of being, tbh). Either way, this Palmar is too passive. Ten are required for a lynch. Depending on reactions tomorrow I'll vote him. However, Refallen. Care to elaborate the connection between Palmar flipping red and Tyrran becoming a target? There are three KP that can be aimed in this game. Your argument only holds for the two Angel KP. However, this is a terrible way to play as town, unless there is a specific reason to, as if a scum team is afraid of you, they will shoot you regardless, or they might think your behaviour is indicative of being a power role, in which case they will shoot you as well. The best way for every player to act, is like a vanilla townie, unless you want to draw a hit for some reason. Secondly, there's a demon-hunter KP, so if Palmar is trying to avoid Angel KP, doing it in that way makes it more likely to be hit by the town KP for being scummy. Anyways, I don't really believe it, but I want to point it out to you, so you can see that that argument doesn't hold. Don't make excuses for Palmar's scummy behaviour. If he's acting scummy, the most reasonable explanation is that he is scum, so you shouldn't try to make excuses for why he might do the same thing as town, especially if they don't actually hold up to scrutiny. Also, I would like nothing more than to avoid a no-lynch today. Like I said before, we'll be lucky if we get any information from the next day post besides the demon-hunters' hit, unless the acolyte manages to hit a demon. So, it's imperative that we actually follow through with our suspicions. I believe Palmar is scum, so I'm going to do my best to assure he is lynched. We can't sit around and wait, because the longer we do so, the weaker the town becomes until we manage to reduce or eliminate one or both of the scum factions. So, if you're town, you better be doing your best to vote for scum. Hopefully you'll vote for Palmar. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
I am not saying keep him alive until late game. As stated, I know of at least one game he was in recently where he did basically nothing day 1. Past day 1 is quite a different story. A day 2 useless Palmar is definitely a scum Palmar. Also, I thought we had only 72 hours, but apparently we have 91 hours day 1. That makes me feel a bit better about establishing whether or not Palmar will be useful this game before the lynch occurs, less chance of being able to account for his lack of interest solely due to some RL issue coming up. But, as I stated: I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. So a decent way to solidify my stance on him would be by answering that question if you could. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 06 2012 14:20 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Wiggles I am not saying keep him alive until late game. As stated, I know of at least one game he was in recently where he did basically nothing day 1. Past day 1 is quite a different story. A day 2 useless Palmar is definitely a scum Palmar. Also, I thought we had only 72 hours, but apparently we have 91 hours day 1. That makes me feel a bit better about establishing whether or not Palmar will be useful this game before the lynch occurs, less chance of being able to account for his lack of interest solely due to some RL issue coming up. But, as I stated: So a decent way to solidify my stance on him would be by answering that question if you could. As far as I remember, I have not seen him play a game as town where he has not played aggressively and forcefully, starting day 1. Every game I've played with him, he's either called someone out quickly, been quick to shoot down bad play, or tunneled someone into the ground if he's been town. This is not the Palmar I'm used to playing with as town. Also keep in mind, that most games only have 48 hour days, and he has already spent more than that time continuing to act the way he has. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 06 2012 15:08 Mr. Wiggles wrote: As far as I remember, I have not seen him play a game as town where he has not played aggressively and forcefully, starting day 1. Every game I've played with him, he's either called someone out quickly, been quick to shoot down bad play, or tunneled someone into the ground if he's been town. This is not the Palmar I'm used to playing with as town. Also keep in mind, that most games only have 48 hour days, and he has already spent more than that time continuing to act the way he has. Thanks for the info. @Syllo Could you please answer this as well? Spoilered in case it is not clear what question I am referring to. + Show Spoiler + I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. I read your earlier exchange with him, and he mentioned steamship as an example of his lazy early game town play, but in that game he became very active before the 48 hour mark, which has already passed here. Do you think Palmar is likely to flip scum? | ||
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Cwave
Netherlands313 Posts
On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Ok that does it. How about you take responsibility in this current game? There is useless and then there is this. Your filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=41447 3 posts of which 2 contain a sorry. You had more then ample time to post and yet you choose to not do so(you choose to do the other mafia game) You don't even have a signup post and why is that, ah yes. You are an invited player by Zona cause you subbed in before. As a invited player and a subber, you should know how useless inactive people are. Even more so when they just post something to prevent modkills....... Your name in my excel had "invited by Zona, most likely some role with power due to that". Now it's "useless inactive". | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 06 2012 17:53 Cwave wrote: Your name in my excel had "invited by Zona, most likely some role with power due to that". Now it's "useless inactive". check out previous Zona games if you think that's how Zona works | ||
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Cwave
Netherlands313 Posts
On January 06 2012 17:55 Blazinghand wrote: check out previous Zona games if you think that's how Zona works Well, one would assume that people who get invited are gonna be bloody active. Game has run for 3 days now. | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
##Vote: Mr. Wiggles | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 06 2012 18:08 Cwave wrote: Well, one would assume that people who get invited are gonna be bloody active. Game has run for 3 days now. That's not what you said. This is what you said: On January 06 2012 17:53 Cwave wrote: Your name in my excel had "invited by Zona, most likely some role with power due to that". | ||
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Cwave
Netherlands313 Posts
On January 06 2012 18:32 Blazinghand wrote: That's not what you said. This is what you said: Those two don't exclude eachother. Activity is a given for mafia games and if you fail to be active you are useless or scum. Or both. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
On January 06 2012 11:14 Refallen wrote: I'm thinking Jackal is town this game. At least, he appears to be taking a different route than on TLXLVIII when he was scum. Plus I don't think any scum would risk trying to outright lynch Palmar without a really detailed case. I disagree with you here. From the few games I've read Palmar seems to be a efficient scum hunter.Bussing Palmar is therefore an good scum strat. Almost EVERY SINGLE one of Jackal post were attacking palmar. And he NEVER had more than 1 line of justification. He did not even refer to MrWiggles case. That is scummy play for me. Also note that as there is 2 scum faction, they can perfectly both be scum, one angel and one demon. I'll be looking at both of them today. Palmar need to step up his game, and Jackal needs to start become useful. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086 Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: For example, take this post: It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching "people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical. So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz On January 06 2012 00:00 Palmar wrote: After Bluelight's latest list of only town/null reads and his wishy-washy-ness with accusing people I might actually just off him. I was kinda leaning maybe noob-town on him, but I don't like his last few posts. But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky! And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles | ||
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