Whether walling of the natural as described is a good idea or not, the 3 width is the width of 1ff, meaning keeping a sentry on the high ground can ff lings, hellions, and early marine pushes in half or away all together while only using 1 ff.
As for the ramp at the 3rd, I felt while playing on this map, that my 3rd was too open by just walking up the ramp, as if walling of the choke to the 4th didnt do much. Also, before your 3rd has been taken, it would be easier to hold flanks coming down that ramp as it would use less ff, which always helps at that point in the game.
Though, as I diamond scrub, I could be wrong :p
Also, as asked, here are pictures walling of the natural. + Show Spoiler +
With complaints about the 3rd being so far, I set out to see just how far way the 3rd was form the natural compared to ladder maps with simialr layouts, as in, no 3rd nestled against the main. I did so by placing a nexus at both natural and 3rd, and timed how long it took a probe to go from nexus to nexus. These were the results measured with in game seconds.
It seems as if 6 of 8 current ladder maps have either the same or longer distance between thirds compared to Havens Lagoon, alongside having the same similarity as air harass exposure. Considering all 6 of those maps have a similar natural 3rd layout to Havens, this leads to a few possible conclusions. Either all 6 of these maps are imbalanced for toss, Havens Lagoon is fine, or I'm missing something which is very possible.
On a side note, I expected to see Havens Lagoon above all ladder maps, simply because it did look longer. The original plan to this experiment was to see how much longer the 3rd was form the natural compared to ladder maps, then propose solutions. However, the numbers say it's right on the money when comparing to current ladder maps. So, I feel it's fine as it is.
EDIT: As some posts below this one have pointed out, this only measures how easy the 3rd is to take, not how easy it is to hold. As a result, I'm looking for ways to make it easier to hold. Mostly likely solution will be to move the entrance from the 4th to the 3rd closer to the ramp, thus taking less time to get to the third and defend.
On November 12 2011 07:29 Timetwister22 wrote: With complaints about the 3rd being so far, I set out to see just how far way the 3rd was form the natural compared to ladder maps with simialr layouts, as in, no 3rd nestled against the main. I did so by placing a nexus at both natural and 3rd, and timed how long it took a probe to go from nexus to nexus. These were the results measured with in game seconds.
It seems as if 6 of 8 current ladder maps have either the same or longer distance between thirds compared to Havens Lagoon, alongside having the same similarity as air harass exposure. Considering all 5 of those maps have a similar natural 3rd layout to Havens, this leads to a few possible conclusions. Either all 5 of these maps are imbalanced for toss, Havens Lagoon is fine, or I'm missing something which is very possible.
On a side note, I expected to see Havens Lagoon above all ladder maps, simply because it did look longer. The original plan to this experiment was to see how much longer the 3rd was form the natural compared to ladder maps, then propose solutions. However, the numbers say it's right on the money when comparing to current ladder maps. So, I feel it's fine as it is.
I think a slightly more useful metric would be the length of the smallest line of defence, or the shortest line that a defending army would have to defend in order to stop all ground entry points into the main-nat-third
for example on metalopolis the defender would have to defend along the red line to protect both the natural and third + Show Spoiler +
and on your map, the defender you have to defend along the entire length of the red line to protect the natural and third simultanteously + Show Spoiler +
so if you send the probe from one endpoint of the line to the other, it will give a more accurate representation of how "hard" it is to defend those bases in my opinion.
at any rate, the results you have are valuable and show that people are overreacting about the distance to the third imo.
Roughly, what you measured time was how easy it is to take. Roughly, what namrufus measured is how hard it is to keep.
I agree with poster above me that you should only narrow one of the entrances to the 3rd. It's not about the chokes entering it so much as the army positioning required to quickly pivot between the nat and 3rd. For example in PvZ, if you wanted to be ready to respond immediately to either site, you'd have to stand in the middle of open ground at the bottom of the ramp. If you stay at the 3rd with your army, it's still rather open and somewhat scary with the two entrances the way they were originally. Compare that to Tal'Darim Altar where the nat-3rd path is safely narrow (for PvZ) and the outer-facing entrance is wide, so typically protoss wall off with 4 gateways there.
The 3rd on this map is very comparable to other ladder maps where protoss wall off with gateways (like metal) although there are differences in how map control effects the vulnerability. Ling muta will be very strong, but the metagame is changing to curtail that anyway.
I don't like the new narrowness of the natural choke against the main cliff. It's not that bad but I'd prefer just rotating the whole arc of the entrance towards the 3rd instead of tightening one side. It's not viable to do a standard FFE wall at two chokes that a single pylon can't reach. It's very possible other builds could wall the chokes in that way.
Incidentally, when I was trying to come up with a good FFE building plan, I found that it'd be much easier to wall ramp-nexus if the natural spot was one square farther in the N/S direction. This is because if you place a pylon by the end of the mineral line, you can't fit a forge and gateway in the power because the nexus is too close. If you move the pylon over to accomodate, your cannon will make a really awkward block into your own minerals. I'll make a picture later, I realize that'd just be easier.
I'm going to keep trying out the PvZ features in earnest. I think fixing the 3rd for PvZ will incrementally harm the integrity of the map, and those problems stem from the matchup dynamics. On many maps pro protoss players feel forced to 2base all in much of the time because taking a 3rd is very difficult. Players like hero are trying out wild strategies to make zerg uncomfortable in unfamiliar ways (usually at earlier timings). I think players will gravitate towards "forcing" hydras to avoid muta games. Overall, this map exhibits a lot of characteristics that make taking a 3rd in PvZ hard, but it is not clear it's impossible to come up with a good plan.
And, if the game gets past that crucial turning point, the 4th base is very advantageously placed for protoss imo.
Your changes reflect willingness to bend in the direction of general improvement though, and for that I applaud you. Hopefully you can get enough solid feedback from testing to make the best possible adjustments to accommodate the current metagame problems in PvZ.
So I've been messing around with the map, and I made some changes I thought I'd share. They are unofficial as of now, and depending on feedback, they may or may not become official. + Show Spoiler +
-As shown below, I moved over the entrance to the 3rd 4 tiles to the right, with the intent to make it easier for protoss to defend both 3rd and natural by just sitting at the bottom of the ramp to their 3rd. -As a result however, the left gas in the 4th was literally right in the middle of the path, so the 4th too was pushed over a bit so the gas was no longer directly in the way. -However, this narrowed the path between the island and the cliff of the 4th to just 3 forcefields, which is a bit too narrow. Thus I had to move the island to the right as well, while maintaining the natural choke. The picture lies, primarily cause I suck with drawing with a mouse. It is the same as the previous width. -The choke between the island and the main cliff has been narrowed to 1 forcefield, to once more help protoss out with defending their natural.
Congrats on making a sort of underdog map, showing everyone that anyone can get their maps known. On an aesthetic note, I really like the improvements that have been made to the textures, but there's still a small bump for me, if this ends up being a ladder map. As a beach map, the shapes of a lot of land looks too geometric, and not as natural as it could be. It's a simple fix, and definitely something you(and by you I mean all of us) refine as you make more and more maps, so keep it in mind. Examine Blizzard maps, and other maps(like Ohana), and you'll see it.
Overall though, the map looks cool, and seems to embody fun of play over strict balance. GJ
On November 11 2011 18:22 Timetwister22 wrote: After getting some feedback, I've made some changes. These are not published in the TLMC version yet, so let me know what you think.
It only takes three 3x3 buildings to wall off 3rd. Ramp width has been decreased from 4 to 3, and the minerals have been moved slightly closer to ramp for shorter distance.
Small change, but a change nevertheless. Curtain has been added to the extended land that wraps around main to make room for other uses than just robo blink in PvP, which was its original purpose.
1. I don't like the tightened choke at the natural. Most forge expands need to place the cannons between the natural and the ramp, and the exit from the natural to the third. So cannons wouldn't be able to cover any wall off up at that choke anyway. I think the only thing this change does is make it easier in ZvX to defend against 4gate/2Rax with spinecrawlers...and this map is already plenty Zerg-friendly. The natural's choke was fine the way it is. Metal, Xelnaga, and to lesser extent Tal'Darim all have naturals that are equally exposed, but are still fine in PvZ due to other architecture. I think more people are worried about the 3rd in ZvX than the natural.
2. The ramp fix is good. But the first choke fix, the 3x3 narrowing, is bad imo. Because again, the choke is too far from the Nexus to wall effectively. I think your second idea about how to fix the third's choke is much better. Just shift the 3rd-4th passageway a couple pixels to the east instead. It is unfortunate the that will also force the 4th and island to change. But I don't like the "also shift to the east" solution because that makes it super easy to snipe the 4th's geysers from the bottom of both ramps. Why not simply move the fourth's southern geyser to the north as well? That would make it so you only need to defend one ramp to hold the geysers, not two, and it would eliminate the blockage in the 3rd-4th passageway.
As I mentioned above this is why it's awkward to wall ramp-->nexus and could be averted by scooting the natural back one square:
Can't do forge + gateway with this pylon placement.
The cannon really constricts the space if the pylon is placed to allow forge + gateway. Archons can't get in or out. This is a problem with the walloff you posted earlier.
It's not a huge issue but it'd be nice if walling was more straightforward.
Regarding changes, why not shift the 3rd and ramp over only 2 squares, not 4, and then add a little to the left side of the tree clump, or a dot-sized additional tree-clump to break up the space? Just ideas. I think 4 squares might be moving it too far, it begins to clump bases into a 4base pod and isolates the left side of the map.
I played the map yesterday and I have to say it's really a pleasant map to play! So congratz about it... (actually I hope you will win! I feel this map is by far more original than others - which are great nonetheless).
My only negative impression though (and maybe I am the only one who experienced that) is that it's kind of dark. I don't know if it's just me being tired yesterday, but I had the impression there was not enough light on it
good luck for the second part of the contest!
EDIT: previous screenshots confirm my impression ; but there may be a hidden reason I ignore to that (I am no map maker at all!).
Like to start off and say I was definitely one of those people when I first saw that map pretty much judged it immediately and didn't really care for it. I ended up playing 2 games on it tonight and it actually wasn't that bad at all. I still think the 3rd is a little too far away though, like many others have said. Yes, you can do the 3 3x3 buildings to wall off the third to make it a little more safe but it's still a super long way to have to defend it all.
Also, the other thing I'm unsure of is the base directly in the middle. It seems like quite the pointless base because the only race that could ever stand a chance to hold that base would be a terran and only if they could get a pfort up on it, but still it's so close to the opponent that even with a pfort it'd be extremely difficult and dangerous to hold. I'm wondering how it'd be if you removed that base, and added a very small highground area kind of where that base was. Could maybe even add another watchtower up on that highground piece. It'd allow some vision of the middle of the map, possibly have vision of the other watchtower, and would give some vision of the air space in between the mains.
That or take the base out but just add some LoS blockers through out that whole path. Since it is the fastest way to get to your enemy base, why not make it also a little more dangerous by adding LoS blockers.
This of course is all random thoughts that popped in my head during these 2 games I played, so take them as you will.
On November 12 2011 18:20 SidianTheBard wrote: Also, the other thing I'm unsure of is the base directly in the middle. It seems like quite the pointless base because the only race that could ever stand a chance to hold that base would be a terran and only if they could get a pfort up on it, but still it's so close to the opponent that even with a pfort it'd be extremely difficult and dangerous to hold. I'm wondering how it'd be if you removed that base, and added a very small highground area kind of where that base was. Could maybe even add another watchtower up on that highground piece. It'd allow some vision of the middle of the map, possibly have vision of the other watchtower, and would give some vision of the air space in between the mains.
You're right, the only race that stands a chance at holding that expo is Terran. But that expo is very key to making lategame TvX balanced on this map. Protoss can defend their 5th+6th just fine against harass with warpin and cannons. And Zerg are fine because all their expos are production facilities.
However because all new Terran units need to walk from the main+natural, it's very tough to defend "natural" 5th+6th without holding at least three ramps and also idling a ton of supply there. That's why Terran needs that low ground expo. Yeah that expo has many vulnerablities, but it is blessedly close to our production facilities, which is a big deal for us. And should PvZ ever evolve into lategame Stargate, it would make a big deal for the Protoss player too.
On November 12 2011 16:56 Timetwister22 wrote: Also, what would be wrong with say, this wall off? + Show Spoiler +
The only problem with that walloff is that banelings targeted on the upper left corner of the cannon would also blow up the pylon, which makes it infinitely more difficult to re-wall even if you crush the first bust.
(Baneling splash has 2.2 radius which is just barely enough)
I played the map a bit more today and I like almost all the changes. The fixes to the 3rd+4th in particular helped alot.
However, the curtains blocking off the pockets between the mains need to go. That part of the map is waaaay too good for cliff abusing in TvZ. There's literally no way for Zerg to kill Siege Tanks or Hellions dropped inside the pocket except by air.
I do like that the deep pocket is there because it sets up some interesting Blink, Reaper, Siege, Drop, and proxy plays. But I don't think the pockets need extra terrain to make holding that area of the map even more powerful. Just remove the curtains so short range units can effectively interrupt an elevator.
Another thing I noticed is that the central Watchtower has vision of the low ground expo's gasses. That's bad because a single siege tank at that tower can deny both gasses from 13 range plus a ramp away. =P You might want to move the tower west like 1 or 2 squares just so it loses vision of the geysers.
The only thing I think this map is missing right now is another Xel'naga tower at the top level. I really enjoy fighting over the level 2 Xel'naga tower when the game goes to base 3 and 4, and it would be awesome if that could continue when the game goes to bases 5 and 6. Making it so one Xel'naga tower can see the other one would add an interesting dynamic as well.
Another thing I noticed is that the central Watchtower has vision of the low ground expo's gasses. That's bad because a single siege tank at that tower can deny both gasses from 13 range plus a ramp away. =P You might want to move the tower west like 1 or 2 squares just so it loses vision of the geysers.
I did notice how the watch tower overlooked the gases, however the tower has 22 range, a tank only has 14. Another point, unless someone just randomly takes those gases, you'd think the tank would be attacking the base itself, not the gases. This was done on purpose, to make that base more vulnerable.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/26WR0.jpg)
Forge Fast expand wall.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CDXgM.jpg)
1 gate expand wall. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QyKbT.jpg)
3 gate expand wall. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K0Rbl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MUvml.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cs1oT.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GsstR.jpg)
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It only takes three 3x3 buildings to wall off 3rd. Ramp width has been decreased from 4 to 3, and the minerals have been moved slightly closer to ramp for shorter distance. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bXJnZ.jpg)
More trees and doodads have been added to decrease some openness in the middle area. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Fexls.jpg)
Small change, but a change nevertheless. Curtain has been added to the extended land that wraps around main to make room for other uses than just robo blink in PvP, which was its original purpose. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Iras.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OV1w9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Lm77.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2CPKQ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JyVic.jpg)
