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Havens Lagoon (1.5)
Made by: Timetwister22
Published on: [NA][EU][SEA]
If you followed this map through TLMC, check out ESV Havens Lagoon RE
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SaYjS.jpg)
In-Game Description:
Two player map where using the terrain will be critical to your success. As the game progresses, your forces should move up the map - but don't forget about sneaky counter attacks using the low ground!
Introduction/Inspiration:
Despite the comparison, Rise of Valkyries was not an inspiration, as I didn't play broodwar nearly enough to even know how to play, let alone know the hundreds of maps. The concept of expanding upward simply came to me after drawing map layouts on paper for quite some time. Though, my biggest inspiration was the layout of the main, natural, and 3rd of Metalopolis, as the 3rd isn't nestled up against the main. Took that idea and applied it to a 2 player map. Of course there is much variation, but it was the only layout that would fit the concept of expanding upward.
Pictures (Aesthetics):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BXCOW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MHx5x.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JD5zO.jpg)
Data (Aesthetics):
Texture Set:
Bel'Shir Dirt Light
Bel'Shir Dirt Dark
Bel'Shir Grass Light
Monlyth Dunes
Xil Sand
Xil Dirt Rocky
Xil Dirt
Mienhoff Sand Dunes
Cliff Type:
Bel'Shir Organic Cliffs
Pictures (Gameplay):
+ Show Spoiler +
Data (Gameplay):
Playable Bounds: 134x137
Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): 35 in in-game seconds
Nat Choke <-> Nat Choke Distance(s): 20 in in-game seconds
Mineral/Gas Counts:
+ Show Spoiler +
All standard bases are 8 blue mineral patches 2 vespene gyser layouts with the exception of the high yields, which are 6 mineral patches with 2 vespene gysers.
Would also like to mention that without being on a mapmaking team at the time of creating Haven Lagoons, mostly all of my valuable feedback came from NA friends Munk (Master Zerg), Lonelyhat (Master Zerg, but plays other races at a high diamond/low master level), and Jamileon (Master Protoss) :D
EDIT: Edited for newest version. Pages 1&2 of this thread discuss V1.3 and V1.4, which you can see below.
+ Show Spoiler +Havens Lagoon (1.3) Made by: Timetwister22 Published on: [NA][EU][SEA] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LFvxB.jpg) In-Game Description: Two player map where using the terrain will be critical to your success. As the game progresses, your forces should move up the map - but don't forget about sneaky counter attacks using the low ground! Introduction/Inspiration: Despite the comparison, Rise of Valkyries was not an inspiration, as I didn't play broodwar nearly enough to even know how to play, let alone know the hundreds of maps. The concept of expanding upward simply came to me after drawing map layouts on paper for quite some time. Though, my biggest inspiration was the layout of the main, natural, and 3rd of Metalopolis, as the 3rd isn't nestled up against the main. Took that idea and applied it to a 2 player map. Of course there is much variation, but it was the only layout that would fit the concept of expanding upward. Pictures (Aesthetics): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RvEV6.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Nwb1C.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/STx3F.jpg) Data (Aesthetics): Texture Set: Bel'Shir Dirt Light Bel'Shir Dirt Dark Bel'Shir Grass Light Monlyth Dunes Xil Sand Xil Dirt Rocky Xil Dirt Mienhoff Sand Dunes Cliff Type: Bel'Shir Organic Cliffs Pictures (Gameplay): My analyzer isn't working, I'll get this up as soon as I can [Angled Overview] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HyTpg.jpg) Data (Gameplay): Playable Bounds: 134x137 Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): 35 in in-game seconds Nat Choke <-> Nat Choke Distance(s): 20 in in-game seconds Mineral/Gas Counts: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MNqCn.jpg) All standard bases are 8 blue mineral patches 2 vespene gyser layouts with the exception of the high yields, which are 6 mineral patches with 2 vespene gysers. Comments: Many tend to believe this map is highly unfavorable for protoss, and slightly favors zerg. However I feel it just forces a different style of play. We'll see what the map has to offer in the TLopen. Would also like to mention that without being on a mapmaking team at the time of creating Haven Lagoons, mostly all of my valuable feedback came from NA friends Munk (Master Zerg), Lonelyhat (Master Zerg, but plays other races at a high diamond/low master level), and Jamileon (Master Protoss) :D
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your Country52798 Posts
I'd walk on water to defeat zerg on this map.
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Somehow I feel if the 3rd is a little closer or 2nd a lil easier to defend, would go a long way in balancing this map for toss.
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I really like this map's look. I don't think it's good for toss, but I do really like its look.
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Whoa. You've been working hard on the aesthetics a lot. The map looks much prettier. I really like how you use the arch rock doodads, they look interesting.
I find the location of the gold expansion interesting. I would have placed it where the other expansion in between the mains is because each player would have a higher influence on that location. The path it exists on would see more action and the base would in general be more difficult to expand to and defend and very accessible by both players. It's also revealed by the Xel'naga Tower and can be easily harassed by air. I think that that expansion should be gold and the one at the 9 o'clock should be a normal expansion.
The natural is very open. Because of its openness, a lot of openers for Terran Protoss that rely on fast expands are made much more risky than they would be normally. In general, I enjoy watching games and playing games on maps that are extremely flexible and allow many builds to be possible. You will want to read this thread on spectator value if you have not already. I overall feel that the choke to the natural should be made tighter to make fast expands more viable for Terran and Protoss.
The layout of your map clearly resembles Ride of Valkyries from Brood War. They both have use the same style of symmetry, which isn't used in many maps. Usually this type of symmetry yields a close air distance and expansions that are far away from both players. Like on Ride of Valkyries, players can always expand away from your opponent. The third, fourth, and maybe even fifth expansions are fairly far away from your opponent and have a good amount of distance from one another. This means that an enemy player with a death ball will not be able to steamroll through multiple expansions as efficiently as if they were placed together because the ball with have to travel from point A to point B. The death ball will also be extremely out of position; if a counter-attack occurred, the natural would be in a lot of trouble, and since the natural is right next to the main, that player will win the base race if he is ahead on expansions because of how close the two bases are. This gives the expansions their own kind of security. The bases will be harassed, but almost never directly attack with an entire army because of how out of position the army would be. Also, none of these expansions can be dropped. There are no cliffs by any of these expansions. There probably should be so that these expansions are not as easy to expand to. I think that a cliff behind the intended third would be a good addition, and maybe even one behind the base labeled as the fifth expansion, but I'm not so sure one is necessary there.
Overall, Haven's Lagoon is very open. There are no significant chokes other than the ramp of the main into the natural. The natural doesn't have a choke, and all of the ramps on the map are very wide. An analyzer image would help a lot for determining balanced proportions. They have an average openness feature which is pretty awesome and extremely helpful. The openness of the natural and other expansions, combined with the reasons I've stated above about their low risk, put Zerg at an extremely large advantage over Protoss and a less large advantage over Terran. This thread on base vulnerabilities would be worth your while as a nice read as well. I think that the obstructions outside of the naturals and in front of the gold expansion should be made larger and that some of the ramps should be shrunk, specifically the ones into the third and the ones that lead to the Xel'naga Tower, to make the map less open.
This suggestion is a bit extreme, but if the Protoss death ball gets out of position too much, then maybe the height of the map should be shrunk. This should be a last resort if everything else fails.
I'd like to apologize for my immature behavior about the results of the TL map contest. I meant no offense to you as a map maker and am always happy to see more and more people delve into the community, especially those willing to improve, and your aesthetic update has convinced me that you are one of those people. What bothered me was that the judges picked your map over some other quality maps that I would have rather seen as finalists, and I am sorry for funneling my anger out on the map. I'd also like to mention that this map is so much better than my first SCII map. I was also really really really excited for the competition and viewed it as something that would bring community maps into the spotlight, which only fueled my disappointment at the results.
Congratulations on Haven's Lagoon being a finalist, and good luck with the competition!
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congrats on your map getting a finalist's position!
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4713 Posts
Ah, nice work on the visuals, I'm glad too see where you took some of your inspiration from 
Last thing you probably need to do now is find the analyzer and see what it says about your map.
In general you want an average openness between 3.90 and 4.15 give or take. If your map is too open you can make it more chokey by adding cliffs in strategic places, or by filling out some parts of the map with unpalatable doodads, like trees, rocks etc.
The trick is to know when to use cliffs and when to use doodads, but that comes with time.
Anyway congrats again on making the final 7 and looking forward to seeing how your map progresses.
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IMO should change contested 6th base to gold base and change contested 6th to a semi-island with 1 gas (high yield)... Just my opinion, but otherwise looks good. Might be problematic for Terran/Toss to hold natural and 3rd without expanding to center though.
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I'm Terran.
One small thing that makes me very happy is that both of the mains are on the right side of the map. It's *really really* nice to not worry about addons screwing up your sim city. I wish that was something that all 2 player maps featured.
I can see how people would say that this is a Zerg-favored map. But there's a lot of other good things going for it. The low ground expo with the WT kissing it saves TvZ. It's a perfect position for a planetary, just like the rocked gold on XNC. However because the expo is more open (both to ground and air) it's not nearly as imbalanced.
Another thing not immediately obvious is that the 3rds and 4ths, as well as 5ths and gold, are REALLY close together. If you drop (or warpin) at one expo with a bunch of static defense, then it is soooo easy to waltz over and hit another expo instead. So spines, spores, cannons, and PFs (except for the low ground expo) all kinda suck on this map. Which I think is a good thing, because it makes it difficult to turtle beyond 1 base, and it rewards multitasking.
I'm curious why so many people think the map is bad for Protoss. I would agree that the tough third makes it difficult to pull off the standard 3 base collossi into HT build. And the lack of chokes sucks for forcefield. But the map's lack of WTs really hurts Zerg with respect to spotting warp-ins. The pockets outside the main opposite of the ramps are perfectly sized for high ground warpins and Stargate play. And all the different map levels make it super easy to hide proxy pylons. Cliff walking Collosi can absolutely murder the 4th expos. The open naturals are kinda bad for PvZ forge builds, but it's also really good against every Terran fast expand.
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After getting some feedback, I've made some changes. These are not published in the TLMC version yet, so let me know what you think.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GsstR.jpg) Tightened choke between main and island infront of natural. Allows protoss to wall off their main with three 3x3 buildings.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JBddf.jpg) It only takes three 3x3 buildings to wall off 3rd. Ramp width has been decreased from 4 to 3, and the minerals have been moved slightly closer to ramp for shorter distance.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bXJnZ.jpg) More trees and doodads have been added to decrease some openness in the middle area.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Fexls.jpg) Small change, but a change nevertheless. Curtain has been added to the extended land that wraps around main to make room for other uses than just robo blink in PvP, which was its original purpose.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
1. no protoss will use that wall off, it is fine atm
2. 3 3x3 is okay, not particularly necessary but won't change much. The width decrease on the ramp I don't understand - can you elaborate on why you want that changed?
3. Seems good.
4. Indifferent!
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On November 11 2011 18:30 Plexa wrote:
1. no protoss will use that wall off.
I play protoss and I sure will.
The changes are good but they dont fix all problems.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2011 18:35 Sea_Food wrote:I play protoss and I sure will. The changes are good but they dont fix all problems.
It's a bad wall because
1) two attack paths = twice the number of cannons you need to defend all ins
2) Exposes your cycore, a lot (no one will build the 2nd gate)
3) Requires 2 pylons to complete - roach timings will hit around then and you're stuffed
4) Can only wall off one entrance in time for standard speedpool ling prod
By the time you get that wall up, most of the builds that you want to wall off against are no longer a threat
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Is there a reason you put both gas on the natural to the left side?? Seems to be very vulnarable to air play...
and can you show a picture with a wall off from the main ramp to nexus??
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Have you tested this for lag issues? There is a lot of mist/fog doodads used in the air-areas along the map borders. Might be worth to check out before the map is used in high level tournament play. The same goes for the water areas and those with a lot of trees.
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
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It's cute, but not really balanced at all. Congrats on the competition though.
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
On November 12 2011 01:45 Venomsflame wrote:
It's cute, but not really balanced at all. Congrats on the competition though.
What parts of the map make it an imbalanced one?
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On November 12 2011 01:48 Ares[Effort] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 01:45 Venomsflame wrote:
It's cute, but not really balanced at all. Congrats on the competition though. What parts of the map make it an imbalanced one?
The third is pretty far, and to make it worse, the expansion patter there is a straight line, meaning defending vs air, especially muta will be about impossible as protoss.
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I'm just curious why people are complaining about the "openness" of this maps natural. I mean the distance from the ramp to the natural is so small. I think its only 5 squares..... so for the tosses out there who claim you cant FFE on this map i ask you. "Whu.....? why the hell not? you can FFE on metal and that natural is far more open than on this map."
Also, @ Time, i don't think making that ramp smaller, and the flat "choke" into the 3rd smaller is necessary. You can make one or the other smaller, but making them both smaller is not needed IMO. People should not be able to get a "free" expo.
One last thing to all the haters out there. Please go play this map before you decide to super theory craft about how IMBA it is. Its easy to look at something and be like, dam that shits broken, the expos are way too far away. Go play the map a few times then make a decision. Its nice playing on something new, and not the same old routine layout of a map.
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