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The distance is probably one step, while the journey is two steps to make. This because while I'm currently top #7 in my gold division, which is probably not that far away from average plat, I still get almost exclusively gold opponents. If I were on the brink of promotion, I would be getting primarily platinum opponents with some consistency and wouldn't be losing so often to gold players. Therefore I suppose the journey is longer for me than the distance is.
Writing these words, I'm setting on an evening session after a day or two of a break. There's a bit more than 20 points to spend. If I lose, I may drop out of the top 8. If I win, I may climb a couple of places, though not really #1. It's not like I'm stressed or obsessed. I care less and less about the rankings and other such stuff. But I want to get my goal, i.e. platinum league. It would feel good to be plat.
Realistically speaking, I have some classes to prepare for my students, I need to finish my Ph.D. and there are other important things to deal with. The end of the year is coming soon. I feel I may be unable to reach the goal in time but I certainly am going to try.
Meanwhile, as for the "state of the game", if anyone is interested—although there won't be replays right now—my SCV production is improving, as is my expanding. My build orders have changed, and still need improvement. What I feel I'm lacking in, is the right sense of a build to optimise predicted unit production by a certain time mark (I find myself strangely outnumbered at times as a result).
***
In TvZ, I still open hellions, which resembles a form of hellion expand. Hellions are probably the default guess by a Zerg but I find it still works better when he doesn't see a reactor. There is no reactor. I go three naked facts into expand into hellion/thor mix. My current focus is on 1) getting the subjectively optimal number of hellions to the speed of achievement ratio for my play without sacrificing much, 2) speeding up the necessary parts without sacrificing much, 3) eliminating what is not needed. I am particularly considering the following:
- at which point to take the 2nd gas for the optimum ratio;
- decision between armoury and expo while moving out (either of which needs a cut in hellion production);
- remembering about the armoury or expo at any rate in any case (e.g. so that a volley of thors can be made before any roaches make it);
- working in the third optimally;
- getting the optimal timings for upgrades (not too early to avoid getting outmassed, not too late so as to be sure of having them around the time I max out);
- possibly quickening the attack, i.e. finding a timing when I can attack without having maxed out yet;
- surviving baneling bust without delaying the build significantly;
- getting better micro (lowest on the list, all about conserving units to be stronger and safer).
Decisions I've already made: generally no stationary defences (not needed, maxing out faster without). Thors (2-3) ready in position for mutas from around 11:00, somewhat conscious about the possibility of mass muta braving it against 2 thors and winning. Taking the third only if able to hold it securely and avoid a dangerous gamble. Upgrading consistently but not as aggressively as in other matchups (not taking risks if production is crucial). Keeping a decent hellion count. No ports, no air no matter what. Zerg won't have a strong enough air force to defeat the thor component of my army, and air useless anyway in this matchup and build, which basically relies on the thor/hellion synergy (same upgrades, same production buildings).
I very, very rarely lose TvZ. If I lose, it tends to be primarily some insane zergling rush or baneling bust when the numbers coming are more than I can handle, and secondarily some kind of roach stuff but that's typically traceable to an error on my part.
***
In TvT, I am beginning to have a more lucid idea of what's going on (my biggest problem in this matchup), although I still lose to some strange timings or a good marine-tank play (esp. fast tanks, and this is my second biggest problem) and sometimes to a particularly tenacious banshee player that will never quit poking and will eventually do damage (which is my third problem).
The overall idea is to harass with banshees and transition into an overwhelming Skyterran while expanding. This needs good harass, good map control and good expanding to work.
As for harass and opening, I used to go drop => banshee => whatever (situationally) but dropped the drop element due to complicating the defence. I currently just do banshees (undecided between 1 port cloak, 2 port no-cloak and 2 port cloak) with the mind to doing damage and (which is newer in my gameplay) ensuring map control and preventing expos, and (in auxiliary way), shooting down any tank forces before they can set out for my base, thinning out any unattended ground armies etc. This is basically defence, except it's happening in or near his base.
Also, if I do the banshee operation right and have sight of his base, I can know what is coming and when, so I can e.g. make a viking.
I also need to expand in order to sustain first 2 port production and 2 armoury upgrades and, then, more ports as income grows. Typically 3, sometimes 4, sometimes more. Depends.
As a rule the production is only battlecruisers from a certain point onward because solidly upgraded BC's with yamato guns can hold their own against all viking forces I encounter. Additional anti-viking support is better obtained from marines anyway, and sometimes I do make some 30 of them to help out against any massive viking wings. I want to avoid vikings because I want my count of 3/3 battlecruisers to be the highest possible in order to have the biggest possible yamato count. And I conserve yamatos for vikings unless there's enough turrets to make me need to peel them off. And as I said, if I wanted specific support against vikings from other units, I would go for marines (even unupgraded, I think). But sometimes I do go for vikings. I probably should because they benefit from the upgrades. I occasionally still make banshees while having battlecruisers but that's rare and very situational, generally having to do with my needing dps more than HP/standing power.
I do switch to BC's on two bases but I want that third. I get more if I can get away with it, variously by just expanding a lot or defending well. I don't defend expos in order to grab that BC round that's making before contact with the enemy (or get the upgrade etc., generally time working in my favour).
Problems/room for refinement:
- it would be good to limit the general squishiness of this build in mid game;
- it would be good to develop a solid way of dealing with early marine-tank aggression, even against opponents with decent micro (with poor micro opponents it's relatively easy);
- expo timings (both nat and 3rd);
- optimum timing for the switch from banshees to battlecruisers;
- becoming banshee-proof myself (I only mean this in the context of a banshee opening opponent that has a good micro, average or bad is no danger, it's even better because he wastes so much) without becoming significantly delayed or even more vulnerable to marine-tank pushes or leaving window for drops (which too can be deadly);
- getting the optimal timing for the transition (in my experience too early is not good, early on you want to have those pesky banshees and you want the opponent to get in the mindset of countering the banshees, so that he can e.g. make thors... and even vikings are often better news than mass marine)
- bunkering or not bunkering (a bunker tells too much to the opponent and makes my marines stationary, and encourages siege tanks and anti-air; a bunker is mostly useless against banshees; a bunker is, however, good to have against early aggression, most of which, though, has a better counter);
- surviving reapers (reapers give the scouting information, thin out my marines, make trouble in my economy etc. and I need a crisp econ and at least minimum safety in my base).
Decisions made so far: no dropping before banshees. Saving scans from 5:00 to confirming that banshees won't be coming/getting a raven and viking. Making a viking when sure of banshees but never blind. Upgrading defence before attack (due to Terran anti-air doing small damage per shot) but insisting on having attack upgraded too. Making PF expansions when not sure of map control, including nat. Don't want early engagements of small numbers of BC's against infantry, don't want to pull out BC's to deal with hellion run-ins etc. Expanding a lot behind the banshees and while moving out for something bigger. Tending to rely on expanding a lot rather than on defending expansions unless there's an easy to defend third, in which case the other expos are more or less expendable unless they too are easy to defend and I don't risk much by engaging (don't want to lose too many units or to expose BC's or rather their number and upgrades too early).
I generally don't lose if I survive to the point my BC's are happily in the making. If I lose, it tends to be because of early marine-tank (which I don't intercept or otherwise defeat with mostly banshees) or well-microed banshees. Or reapers.
***
TvP is my most problem-ridden matchup. I will begin with problems:
- still poor sense of what the Prot is doing (this is improving);
- vulnerability to observer blinking etc.;
- general vulnerability to persistent stalker aggression combined with decent micro;
- dying to zealots, sometimes immortals;
- getting countered too easily, having much more difficulty countering the enemy than he has countering me (or so it feels);
- no build, no army composition I go for seems to be right as the game progresses.
Out of all, the biggest problem is zealots (mostly only chargelots but sometimes plain zealots) and pesky blink stalkers. One other problem is PDD coverage, it feels like it's leaking and units sitting right under PDD still take damage they should be taking (while the PDD still exists).
My solution tends to be a version of Skyterran but this is so squishy against Protoss it's not even funny. It's enough that the Prot consistently makes and upgrades stalkers only (observers vs cloak banshees) and he's golden. Feedback and storms murder it.
I used to do thor-banshee-raven but it doesn't seem to be worky any more, no matter one base or two-base. It just gets countered by whatever the Protoss makes. And it needs to strike early, before there are 10 storms waiting. I'm considering a marine-banshee(-raven) push instead.
I tried three-rax but it can easily get outproduced by Prot.
I tend to lose TvP games in general. If I win at all, it tends to be some form of Skyterran.
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Keep pushing and you'll get there. The more games you play the better feel you'll get for what builds work and what you're comfortable with.
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As a really shitty Zerg player, I think the key to TvZ is to keep us guessing. Hide your tech as long as possible, it really hurts our econ when you have to proof ourselves against 3 or 4 different things.
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I feel like hellion/thor dies hard if the zerg reacts correctly. Delaying the techlab for blueflame is cool idea, I can attest to that. One of the clearest indicators of mech is a quick techlab to blue flame followed by the early expo, the sooner that you can get blueflame out the more likely you are to maximize damage. If you really are going to do a three naked factory expand, I'd adivse waiting to take your other gas until after you've gotten an expo up or while you are. It seems more optimal to throw down two other factories after you've thrown down a CC.
I look for a tech lab/more than 4 hellions as my indicator that the Terran might be going mech, and after that a roach switch is fairly straight forward. I can have double evos and cleanly mass roach infestor off of three bases while taking my fourth, which I feel is a hard counter to hellion thor (I will admit, I had a lot of trouble with this composition initially). The key to beating this as a zerg player is constant aggression before the timing window in which the Terran finishes the +2 vehicle armor, once this occurs the zerg had better be on equal upgrades with roaches.
You say that you never build air...what happens when that Zerg gets BLs? If you are going a hellion mech thor mix and refuse to build vikings your comp will get absolutely raped  .
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Thanks guys.
Yes, hellion/thor dies to correct reaction but some of the features of my build include precautions, e.g. it's a bit harder to detect than the standard and the transition is swifter. It's never happened to me that the zerg should have killed me with broodlords. It just doesn't happen. He tries but at that point I have 3/3 thors in large numbers, hellions fry the broodlings, there are no tank to cause friendly splash fire and I basically win (infestors are more dangerous). He would need to keep making broodlords unscouted and upgrading them to pull it off, which rarely happens (I don't think I've seen it over the last couple of months). Which reminds me I should spend some energy on scanning or even attack faster, before maxing out.
My biggest problem right now, contrary to my beliefs, seems to be TvT. I've basically lost 4 TvT games in a row, I feel like I can't play this game. It went like plat-plat-silver-gold, all of whom beat me. And this is the first time in a long time I've got a silver opponent from the matchup. Basically, if I get a Terran opponent, I may as well quit. Nothing I do works. Every he does, does work. This is completely disheartening.
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On November 10 2011 06:07 NewbieOne wrote:
My biggest problem right now, contrary to my beliefs, seems to be TvT. I've basically lost 4 TvT games in a row, I feel like I can't play this game. It went like plat-plat-silver-gold, all of whom beat me. And this is the first time in a long time I've got a silver opponent from the matchup. Basically, if I get a Terran opponent, I may as well quit. Nothing I do works. Every he does, does work. This is completely disheartening. Don't let yourself get disheartened by TvT. My suggestion for you is to try more standard play, and focus on your macro (constant scv production, no supply blocks, keep money low). I recommend trying one of the following styles:
1) marine/tank/medivac
2) MMM (out expanding your opponent and trying to use mobility to your advantage)
3) mech (helion/tank/viking).
Trying to stay alive and get battlecruisers off of 2-base is not a very solid strategy. Pick an opening that allows for an early expansion (1 rax expo, or 1/1/1 with an expo going into banshees or just straight to marine/tank), and just practice your macroing.
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Crap. I was #6, now I'm #35. This is almost all thanks to TvT. If I try to play standard, I get cheesed. This sucks. No matter what I do, the opponent always wins. Yay, getting silver opponents again and losing. I've already been demoted from gold to silver once. It just happens at some point: I start losing every game I play. I don't know what gives but I've had this kind of thing already, many times.
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Okay, guys, you can call this a QQ rage, I guess. Still, it's so extremely frustrating how many units (stalkers) a Protoss can get before 7:00 when you have nothing to counter that multitude. At the risk of whatever, I do believe it's unbalanced. Unless you have several SCVs waiting at the bunkers you are not allowed to survive, while the only thing Protoss needs to do is make more units and refuse to go home. I can only defeat this if I go three rax and then with difficulty. Countering fourgate or any other -gate used to be the simplest thing ever.
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
On November 10 2011 07:41 NewbieOne wrote:
Crap. I was #6, now I'm #35. This is almost all thanks to TvT. If I try to play standard, I get cheesed. This sucks. No matter what I do, the opponent always wins. Yay, getting silver opponents again and losing. I've already been demoted from gold to silver once. It just happens at some point: I start losing every game I play. I don't know what gives but I've had this kind of thing already, many times.
I used to have TvT problems but i sorted it out. What you should do is pick one of the most standard builds that pros use. Reactor hellion/ banshee/ 1 rax fe( might be a bit harder ) . The point being is that ONLY do that build. I've been doing Cloak Banshee Into Expansion since I was Silver! (im Diamond now) I've learned the ins and outs of the build too. Just pick a safe build that favors your style and do it over and over and over again.
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In TvZ all my losses are because the Terran is just better than me; his hellion control is sick, he gets retarded amounts of marines and tanks, drops like a boss etc. It's generally over after a really crisp marine/tank push around the time my spire finishes.
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On November 11 2011 03:51 ticktack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:41 NewbieOne wrote:
Crap. I was #6, now I'm #35. This is almost all thanks to TvT. If I try to play standard, I get cheesed. This sucks. No matter what I do, the opponent always wins. Yay, getting silver opponents again and losing. I've already been demoted from gold to silver once. It just happens at some point: I start losing every game I play. I don't know what gives but I've had this kind of thing already, many times. I used to have TvT problems but i sorted it out. What you should do is pick one of the most standard builds that pros use. Reactor hellion/ banshee/ 1 rax fe( might be a bit harder ) . The point being is that ONLY do that build. I've been doing Cloak Banshee Into Expansion since I was Silver! (im Diamond now) I've learned the ins and outs of the build too. Just pick a safe build that favors your style and do it over and over and over again.
Been trying that and it used to rely on twoport with a later 1/1/1 variation where I dropped asap, then went in with banshees, then did whatever, and finally a slightly later than normal banshee opening with rudimentary ground defences into Skyterran (good on Tal'Darim and such). I suppose I should stick with this build and just deal with occasional build order losses. Banshees were among the first openers I've ever used (silver, bronze and gold) and I've done a lot of it. Perhaps I shouldn't get discouraged. But it's awful when at 7:00 you have nothing more than 2 banshees and a big force is coming into your base or even dropping. On the other hand, if you delay in order to get tanks for defence, the opponent might actually be pulling off his own Skyterran build or whatever else he's doing.
Anyway, it's great to meet someone who's been using this build consistently and with greater success. Care to share some tips on higher level usage? 
On November 11 2011 04:08 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
In TvZ all my losses are because the Terran is just better than me; his hellion control is sick, he gets retarded amounts of marines and tanks, drops like a boss etc. It's generally over after a really crisp marine/tank push around the time my spire finishes.
Thank you. I wish I could do that kind of pushes but I just don't. I think I don't have the unit control etc. to pull off those consistent multi-drops and tank pushes. I probably could do it in one game but not in like 5 games in a row.
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
On November 11 2011 08:00 NewbieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:51 ticktack wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 NewbieOne wrote:
Crap. I was #6, now I'm #35. This is almost all thanks to TvT. If I try to play standard, I get cheesed. This sucks. No matter what I do, the opponent always wins. Yay, getting silver opponents again and losing. I've already been demoted from gold to silver once. It just happens at some point: I start losing every game I play. I don't know what gives but I've had this kind of thing already, many times. I used to have TvT problems but i sorted it out. What you should do is pick one of the most standard builds that pros use. Reactor hellion/ banshee/ 1 rax fe( might be a bit harder ) . The point being is that ONLY do that build. I've been doing Cloak Banshee Into Expansion since I was Silver! (im Diamond now) I've learned the ins and outs of the build too. Just pick a safe build that favors your style and do it over and over and over again. Been trying that and it used to rely on twoport with a later 1/1/1 variation where I dropped asap, then went in with banshees, then did whatever, and finally a slightly later than normal banshee opening with rudimentary ground defences into Skyterran (good on Tal'Darim and such). I suppose I should stick with this build and just deal with occasional build order losses. Banshees were among the first openers I've ever used (silver, bronze and gold) and I've done a lot of it. Perhaps I shouldn't get discouraged. But it's awful when at 7:00 you have nothing more than 2 banshees and a big force is coming into your base or even dropping. On the other hand, if you delay in order to get tanks for defence, the opponent might actually be pulling off his own Skyterran build or whatever else he's doing. Anyway, it's great to meet someone who's been using this build consistently and with greater success. Care to share some tips on higher level usage? Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 04:08 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
In TvZ all my losses are because the Terran is just better than me; his hellion control is sick, he gets retarded amounts of marines and tanks, drops like a boss etc. It's generally over after a really crisp marine/tank push around the time my spire finishes.
Thank you. I wish I could do that kind of pushes but I just don't. I think I don't have the unit control etc. to pull off those consistent multi-drops and tank pushes. I probably could do it in one game but not in like 5 games in a row.
I don't do sky terran builds, since I just don't like the playstyle  . But I do like to transition into Mech or Bio Tank from cloaked banshee openings. What I love about it is that, theres so many ways to outplay your opponent.You could scout whatever he's doing too! If he's going to go for some 1 base tank push, use your cloak and delay everything. Snipe scvs, techlabs, reactors while u get necessary defenses, imo siege tank pushes are the hardest type of push to deal with and the key is knowing when to engage. sometimes its wise to engage before he's siege and in other cases you need to pull a lot of scvs to overwhelm his force. in other allins, you can just wait in ur ramp with a bunker while getting more stuff.
As I said, if you do it over and over, there are many other tricks you'll learn! GL HF!
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Thanks, ticktack.
***
Okay, got myself back up a bit, #16 in the division and it doesn't matter that much since everybody is gaining points rapidly and differences between individual players are small. The problem is I'm now getting silver/gold opponents and am not winning that hard, while I used to be paired with gold/plat opponents and winning.
Basically, lowering the MMR of me and, consequently, my opponents, seems to lower my chances of winning. This has already happened a lot. I suppose this is due to different strategies (more all-ins, more cheese, less safe play?) but I'm not sure. I tend to win comfortably when the opponent isn't cheesing.
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You can hit a bit of a losing streak sometimes, I'd be happy to help you practice the matchups sometime as I am a platinum random player, hopefully improving your chances on the ladder
Just PM me if you're up for it, I probably won't have time until after the weekend though.
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Getting better results right now but I still think Protoss can be overpowered in an unfair way, maybe not by a huge margin per average but whenever I face Protoss, I feel like I'm facing the more powerful race.
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Hmm..the only matchup I can really comment on is PvT (I'm a master toss). In my experience, bio is probably the most versatile and robust style to play in this matchup. Going a simple 2 rax expansion allows you to shut down greedy nexus builds as well as hard teching. Generally, until about the 10:00 mark terran should and often will have the stronger army. Your mid-game goal should be to get a big bio ball going and going medivacs for drop harass. Once you get good enough with multitasking, you can easily outplay your opponent, control the map, scout his tech, and shut down additional bases. A small bio force does wonders.
I think it goes without saying that you can easily transition to counter your opponents build. Play reactive, don't decide that you're going to play skyterran without scouting your opponent's unit composition. There are two standard styles that toss will opt for in this matchup: 1) colossus, and 2) templar. Once you scout a robotics bay, produce reactored vikings. If templar, drop a ghost academy. Macroterran is incredibly strong against toss if you play it correctly.
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Thanks, Novabossa. Macro must be my weak point then. I do like going bio vs toss but I often find myself prevented from attacking his base by something I can't defeat without huge losses (e.g. unexpected DT, voids and/or immortals when I don't have enough marines to handle it) etc., at which point my bio becomes useless because he can safely get HT, which is the logical answer to bio. But when I do something else, I lose even harder. For example, I can't manoeuvre any biotank to make tanks particularly useful, and if I don't make an early bioball, the toss tends to show up near my base with a hundred stalkers or something similar. It's not as hopeless as it may sound but I have this kind of difficulties, especially in PvT. When I learn to deal with a particular brand of toss play, the metagame seems to have changed in the meantime or some patch messed things up.
For example, early this year, I went bioball against toss and generally had good success. I changed to biotank, also good, but at some point zealots came into fashion or something else changed, biotank stopped working. I went bioball with medivacs, there was success until cheese abounded and one had to play safer in early game. I then went one-base banshee-thor-raven with great success but at some point it just stopped working, just like that (i.e. every game was a loss, generally due to zealots that everybody seemed to make in the blind). I play threerax again now if only to avoid dying to fourgate or stalker pushes, but this feels too vulnerable and too slow, or a banshee opening, in which case if I'm fast enough with the banshee and keep adding on and being agile and not dying, I can keep the Protoss in his base and expand, and transition to skyterran with upgrades. Which of these would be the most dangerous from a Protoss point of view?
Hope you weren't offended by my QQ rage, I just love Terrans so I won't play anything else but I don't have the agility and multitasking of those guys that make the race look so good.
So I'm contemplating marine-ghost or marine-banshee.
On November 11 2011 21:27 Linkirvana wrote:
You can hit a bit of a losing streak sometimes, I'd be happy to help you practice the matchups sometime as I am a platinum random player, hopefully improving your chances on the ladder
Just PM me if you're up for it, I probably won't have time until after the weekend though.
Thanks, I'd be glad to.
***
Update: Okay, seems I'm #9 in the division right now and might be back in the top 8 soon, since winning one game could up me two places. I'm also on a win streak of 3 right now and generally winning more than losing today. If I don't hit a sudden loss streak I might be able to get my MMR up to the point I face platinum players again. Since the difference apparently isn't so big and I still lose a good deal of games regardless of the opponent's league, I'd rather be facing those from the league above than below, so that I at least avoid the system wanting to demote me.
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I am in a similar position to you, that i am a gold player who is almost in plat.
I am protoss.
The hardest thing for me to defend is an early ghost push. EMP’s are just devastating. Against protoss I would say they are a must. Even with the recent buff if you land 2 good emp’s then you win.
GL
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On November 12 2011 01:38 MrLOST wrote:
I am in a similar position to you, that i am a gold player who is almost in plat.
I am protoss.
The hardest thing for me to defend is an early ghost push. EMP’s are just devastating. Against protoss I would say they are a must. Even with the recent buff if you land 2 good emp’s then you win.
GL
Thanks. I'm looking at some builds incorporating EMP, especially timing pushes.
***
Guys, I'd like to announce I'm back to #6 and climbing.
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Eh, same stuff again. You get win streak after win streak against golds, they lump you with a silver and you lose. Currently sitting on a loss streak of 5, going down the gutter again. I hate this game at times.
Edit: And currently back in top 8, actually #6, was #4 briefly today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, especially as the guys above me are already playing in platinum (I just get a lot of wins against golds).
Here's some numbers:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3312365/Climbing_the_Ladder_How_to_Earn_a_League_Promotion_-15_11_2011#blog
That's kinda reassuring. On the other hand, I doubt I'm going to double my points within less than a month's time.
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EPT
