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On October 12 2011 21:43 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. fluctuation in a balanced game is around the 50% mark the chances of one race staying above 50% winrate in that scenario in 12 consecutive months is very close to 0 of course you hate that chart cuz you don't want to see the truth i as a zerg am quite aware that zerg is too good vs protoss, you should be aware that terran is too good against both other races
I have to leave this thread now before I get angry at how you can't actually fucking read.
Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust
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I still believe that, unit and econ wise, SC2 is a more balanced game than BW.
The fundamental problem in SC2 is the easy control mechanics, this makes the minor imbalance amplified into huge game impact. In BW, the skills of players matters most, since it is too hard to micro, macro, even set rally point. So the matches of BW is always about players. SC2 is not yet.
It is nearly impossible for Blizzard to balance SC2, and make it similar to BW on race distribution.
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On October 12 2011 21:48 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:43 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. fluctuation in a balanced game is around the 50% mark the chances of one race staying above 50% winrate in that scenario in 12 consecutive months is very close to 0 of course you hate that chart cuz you don't want to see the truth i as a zerg am quite aware that zerg is too good vs protoss, you should be aware that terran is too good against both other races I have to leave this thread now before I get angry at how you can't actually fucking read. Show nested quote +Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust
im sick and tired of repacing "too good" with terms like "robust", "developed", "complete" etc, all that matters in an esport game is winrates
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On October 12 2011 21:32 BarbieHsu wrote:
I have a question to you guys who watch a lot. Is the Terran ownage as prevalent in other tournaments? Is the Protoss demise similar? Is this imbalance Korean centered, or even just GSL centered?
IEM Guangzhou: Top4: PPTZ; won by Z
IPL3: Top4: TTZZ; won by Z
MLG Rayleigh: Top4 TTZZ, won by T
GSL Aug: Top4 TTTZ, won by T
DH Invitational: Top4 (keep in mind that only 8 participated): PTTZ, won by Z
Draw your own conclusions 
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On October 12 2011 21:25 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done. I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him. As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again. P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran.
It's not because he lost, it's because he was the last non Terran that lost.
You seriously, seriously must not have watched any of Lucky's games vs Terrans at IPL. I can't even remember him not Roach ling all inning.
As for Stephano vs STC, STC failed to adapt to Stephano's style, of course he lost. But he COULD have adapted with earlier ghosts and done a lot better against Stephano.
The issue with the games we just saw is how little coca could have done differently. There's NO way he could've scouted the proxy in his main without getting lucky. There's very little you can do to stop the low ground siege before mutas, unless of course you catch the Terran unsieged luckily. Weird how a lot of things bank on the Zerg getting lucky.
I'm done here.
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On October 12 2011 21:46 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:21 Derez wrote:On October 12 2011 21:19 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. What does roughly balanced even mean? It means you should stop discussing balance based on a series of games where the zerg player played extremely poorly and as a result lost. Coca played worse, Coca lost, there is no problem. Today at least. There was nothing he could have done to scout that proxy depot/rax in game 1 unless he had ninja sense and got lucky. I'll credit Happy because that placement was gorgeous, but there was NOTHING coca could have done. Game 2, those spawning positions on Tal have always been awful because of the low ground siege. It's hard to win, even more so against a Terran like Happy. Down a quick 2-0, especially after the first game proxy, it's no surprise he tilted in Game 3.
Roughly balanced means imbalanced, but not irredeemably.
I agree with your summarisation of the games, but not that there is nothing Coca could have done game 1. If there is nothing he could do then the strategy is OP, but if it becomes common at all then zergs will send a drone round their base every game and it will be the easiest thing in the world to counter. Meta game.
Since Game 2 is a map imbalance, and Game 3 Coca played bad, can we then say that there is nothing we can take from this series about TvZ balance?
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I'm with a few others in that this season is done for me. As a matter of fact, for a while I've been watching the GSL games selectively - between TvT boredom and Artosis' player bashing I've lost a great deal of interest in the GSL. All these Terrans are just replaceable by one another, and their matches are simply not worth my time. This season I was rooting for Puzzle and DRG but at the end of the day we're yet again left with 4 generic Terrans.
Enjoy your GomTvTvTvT!
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T and Z are fine. P is the only issue. I'd still give it time to see if there's potential meta-game wise.
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On October 12 2011 21:51 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:48 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:43 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. fluctuation in a balanced game is around the 50% mark the chances of one race staying above 50% winrate in that scenario in 12 consecutive months is very close to 0 of course you hate that chart cuz you don't want to see the truth i as a zerg am quite aware that zerg is too good vs protoss, you should be aware that terran is too good against both other races I have to leave this thread now before I get angry at how you can't actually fucking read. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust im sick and tired of repacing "too good" with terms like "robust", "developed", "complete" etc, all that matters in an esport game is winrates
Terran is too good.
Will you fuck off now?
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On October 12 2011 21:52 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:25 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done. I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him. As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again. P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran. It's not because he lost, it's because he was the last non Terran that lost. You seriously, seriously must not have watched any of Lucky's games vs Terrans at IPL. I can't even remember him not Roach ling all inning.
So if the zerg all ins it doesn't count but if a Terran all ins then it's a balance issue?
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On October 12 2011 21:53 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:51 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:48 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:43 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. fluctuation in a balanced game is around the 50% mark the chances of one race staying above 50% winrate in that scenario in 12 consecutive months is very close to 0 of course you hate that chart cuz you don't want to see the truth i as a zerg am quite aware that zerg is too good vs protoss, you should be aware that terran is too good against both other races I have to leave this thread now before I get angry at how you can't actually fucking read. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust im sick and tired of repacing "too good" with terms like "robust", "developed", "complete" etc, all that matters in an esport game is winrates Terran is too good.
im glad we can finally agree on that conclusion
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Something else not related to balance at all is the fact that some terrans and zergs might have their strongest/weakest matchups against protoss. But with basically no P in code S that means that those players will keep rolling and only practice two matchups, ergo they get more evolved.
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On October 12 2011 21:48 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:
I still believe that, unit and econ wise, SC2 is a more balanced game than BW.
The fundamental problem in SC2 is the easy control mechanics, this makes the minor imbalance amplified into huge game impact. In BW, the skills of players matters most, since it is too hard to micro, macro, even set rally point. So the matches of BW is always about players. SC2 is not yet.
It is nearly impossible for Blizzard to balance SC2, and make it similar to BW on race distribution.
I agree, I think the game is so young that the imbalances are amplified so much. Like, in BW can you imagine a battle where one race press stim - a move - EMP EMP EMP and wins? But that's current TvP. I hope in time players skill will refine to the point that you will actually need good micro in battles...
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On October 12 2011 21:53 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:51 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:48 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:43 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. fluctuation in a balanced game is around the 50% mark the chances of one race staying above 50% winrate in that scenario in 12 consecutive months is very close to 0 of course you hate that chart cuz you don't want to see the truth i as a zerg am quite aware that zerg is too good vs protoss, you should be aware that terran is too good against both other races I have to leave this thread now before I get angry at how you can't actually fucking read. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust im sick and tired of repacing "too good" with terms like "robust", "developed", "complete" etc, all that matters in an esport game is winrates Terran is too good. Will you fuck off now?
White-RA's exact quote in IPL3 vs STC... b4 the gg... 
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On October 12 2011 21:52 usethis2 wrote:
I'm with a few others in that this season is done for me. As a matter of fact, for a while I've been watching the GSL games selectively - between TvT boredom and Artosis' player bashing I've lost a great deal of interest in the GSL. All these Terrans are just replaceable by one another, and their matches are simply not worth my time. This season I was rooting for Puzzle and DRG but at the end of the day we're yet again left with 4 generic Terrans.
Enjoy your GomTvTvTvT!
MVP isn't generic. I feel he's one of those Terrans who will always be up there even with severe nerfs. He just has an amazing understanding of the game. Remember that third game against Huk? He double expanded before gas, which put him in a huge lead economically but it left him exposed to Huk's colossus timing and in order to delay the timing he baited Huk across the map using his bio force leaving him with enough time to get his vikings out.
A generic Terran would in all likelihood not have double expanded before taking gas to begin with, but also lose against Huk's colossus timing (had he not 1/1/1 to begin with though).
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On October 12 2011 21:55 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:25 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done. I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him. As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again. P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran. It's not because he lost, it's because he was the last non Terran that lost. You seriously, seriously must not have watched any of Lucky's games vs Terrans at IPL. I can't even remember him not Roach ling all inning. So if the zerg all ins it doesn't count but if a Terran all ins then it's a balance issue?
How much does Zerg have to commit to to stop a Terran all in? Think about that. Now think about how much Terran has to commit to stop a Zerg all in? A bunker and a maurauder? The Terrans he played against knew he had roaches out, but would skip out on the bunker or maurauder in favor of more econ. That's like me putting down 1 extra spine and making 2 extra lings and saying "well, I guess I'm free of all Terran all ins now".
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last matches are tvt so mvp will win this easily
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On October 12 2011 18:50 OMGKEI wrote:
Any news when khaldor is going to get his visa? The B team casters of gsl really suck.
Already got my visa, I'll be arriving in Korea at the 21st, casting the upcoming season
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Stop talkin about T and Z , protoss is too weak ~.~
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EPT
