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On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png
Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions.
For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another.
For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd.
Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough.
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Or maybe you can't take much from a couple of GSLs. NesTea has won 2 of them prior to Mvp destroying people. Idra shit on Puma Guangzhou and Stephano raped a shitload of Koreans and Terrans.
The only people who have any business complaining are Protoss players.
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On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done.
I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him.
As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again.
P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC
EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran.
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is it just me or does anyone else think the finals will be tvt?
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On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough.
If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that?
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Ah, TvTvTvT, again.
I'm cancelling my subscription for sure. As much as I love TvT and think it's the best matchup in SC2 with all the tank positioning, there's only so much TvT one can bear...
Seriously, what? Blizzard needs to open a new server just for the GSL, and reduce all Terran units' HP by 20% on that server X_X
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I have a question to you guys who watch a lot. Is the Terran ownage as prevalent in other tournaments? Is the Protoss demise similar? Is this imbalance Korean centered, or even just GSL centered?
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On October 12 2011 20:41 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 20:39 parano1d. wrote:On October 12 2011 20:38 Hassybaby wrote:
I don't know what it is, but i have an irrational hatred of Happy. Had it since i saw him play in the GSTL My feelings exactly! Can't really explain it either :O Me too :O I hate that guy and I have no idea why.
Same. He has done nothing wrong but I can't stand him lol.
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What I never get is why people threaten GomTV and the GSL with 'cancelling their subscription' (unaware there was a recurring payment that we could 'cancel' herp) as if punishing a group of hard-working people attempting to produce a quality tournament will somehow solve their beef.
I know: GomTV should go out of their way to prop up someone whose ZvT is 30%. They should also prop up Jyp when he gets there since his PvT is 30%. And Mvp should never be allowed to win even though he's the best player in the world regardless of race.
I swear if a metagame shift leads to these Terran numbers changing in GSL, the people whining this month should be permanently banned. They're such whiny bitches.
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We gotta get stepano up in here.
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On October 12 2011 21:30 gold_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that?
If we're talking TvZ, no man that's not how it works. One month of 58% winrate for T does not make a fundamental imbalance. It just doesn't. Does the 56% winrate of zerg for ZvP mean PvZ is unwinnable and will be forever until patched?
If we're talking overall, we don't need a chart to tell us that the game is not 100% balanced.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
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On October 12 2011 21:35 Desert Fox wrote:
What I never get is why people threaten GomTV and the GSL with 'cancelling their subscription' (unaware there was a recurring payment that we could 'cancel' herp) as if punishing a group of hard-working people attempting to produce a quality tournament will somehow solve their beef.
I know: GomTV should go out of their way to prop up someone whose ZvT is 30%. They should also prop up Jyp when he gets there since his PvT is 30%. And Mvp should never be allowed to win even though he's the best player in the world regardless of race.
I swear if a metagame shift leads to these Terran numbers changing in GSL, the people whining this month should be permanently banned. They're such whiny bitches.
I actually do feel GomTv can feel responsible for at least some of the failings regarding GSL and that is that the two best players historically are playing each other in the Ro8 having won their respective groups.
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On October 12 2011 21:37 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:30 gold_ wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that? If we're talking TvZ, no man that's not how it works. One month of 58% winrate for T does not make a fundamental imbalance. It just doesn't. Does the 56% winrate of zerg for ZvP mean PvZ is unwinnable and will be forever until patched? If we're talking overall, we don't need a chart to tell us that the game is not 100% balanced.
I was just stating that Terran has always been in the #1 spot for win rate, and mostly pretty big margins as well.
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On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough.
fluctuation in a balanced game is around the 50% mark
the chances of one race staying above 50% winrate in that scenario in 12 consecutive months is very close to 0
of course you hate that chart cuz you don't want to see the truth
i as a zerg am quite aware that zerg is too good vs protoss, you should be aware that terran is too good against both other races
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On October 12 2011 21:35 Desert Fox wrote:
What I never get is why people threaten GomTV and the GSL with 'cancelling their subscription' (unaware there was a recurring payment that we could 'cancel' herp) as if punishing a group of hard-working people attempting to produce a quality tournament will somehow solve their beef.
I know: GomTV should go out of their way to prop up someone whose ZvT is 30%. They should also prop up Jyp when he gets there since his PvT is 30%. And Mvp should never be allowed to win even though he's the best player in the world regardless of race.
I swear if a metagame shift leads to these Terran numbers changing in GSL, the people whining this month should be permanently banned. They're such whiny bitches.
How do you know MVP is the best player in the world and it isn't just racial imbalance? :D
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On October 12 2011 21:30 ReaperX wrote:
is it just me or does anyone else think the finals will be tvt?
I will be PvP.
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On October 12 2011 21:30 gold_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that?
To put this chart into perspective so people stop taking totally wrong conclusions from it, here's the Brood War one.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uxz19.png)
Jan-Mar 2010, TvZ 50% winrate. ZvT unwinnable right? Terran OP? Mediocre terrans using their race to advance? Nerf Terran?
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On October 12 2011 21:21 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:19 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. What does roughly balanced even mean? It means you should stop discussing balance based on a series of games where the zerg player played extremely poorly and as a result lost. Coca played worse, Coca lost, there is no problem. Today at least.
There was nothing he could have done to scout that proxy depot/rax in game 1 unless he had ninja sense and got lucky. I'll credit Happy because that placement was gorgeous, but there was NOTHING coca could have done.
Game 2, those spawning positions on Tal have always been awful because of the low ground siege. It's hard to win, even more so against a Terran like Happy.
Down a quick 2-0, especially after the first game proxy, it's no surprise he tilted in Game 3.
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EPT
