! [G] lil pvp guide - Page 3

On April 29 2005 12:13 iD.eMiNeM wrote:
if anyone makes it back this far, you're just stupid. but in any case, and im sincere when i say i dont mean to be rude, but that is the biggest bunch of bullshit ive seen about pvp. im not that much of a p player, but i know that really all you need to do is have a 1up in expos, do some decent microing, and basically do reaver/zeal drops on expos, and build up ur mobile army of temp/archon/goon, if you have the econ. early game is just zeal/goon into zeal/goon/temp(storm). as the aforementioned stated, reaver/zeal drops are very effective, especially if they have just started the expo and have no units pumping out of gateways in that spot. if im wrong about this, then so be it, but ive won many pvp games doing that, and i was playing against relatively gosu p players, and im a z myself.

On April 29 2005 12:13 iD.eMiNeM wrote:
if anyone makes it back this far, you're just stupid. but in any case, and im sincere when i say i dont mean to be rude, but that is the biggest bunch of bullshit ive seen about pvp. im not that much of a p player, but i know that really all you need to do is have a 1up in expos, do some decent microing, and basically do reaver/zeal drops on expos, and build up ur mobile army of temp/archon/goon, if you have the econ. early game is just zeal/goon into zeal/goon/temp(storm). as the aforementioned stated, reaver/zeal drops are very effective, especially if they have just started the expo and have no units pumping out of gateways in that spot. if im wrong about this, then so be it, but ive won many pvp games doing that, and i was playing against relatively gosu p players, and im a z myself.

On April 12 2005 14:17 BigBalls wrote:
[UPDATED]

It's been quite a while since I've played BW, let alone written any sort of strategy help. However, it's not like I really forgot anything, maybe some timing issues, but I think I can still explain the game as lucidly as in the past.

I just learned of a new patch that has come out since my absence, although I am not aware of any major balance changes (albeit i haven’t even looked at the patch). So I will assume my old style of play would work just as effectively now as it did in the past.

There are 3 or 4 strategies I commonly use when I play PvP, and adaptations to all of them. These strategies depend on map, opponent, and simply the mood I'm in. I'll go through each one in detail and describe when I would use each, hopefully along with some replays for reference use.

(NOTE: I have become aware of a program that can quickly change the patch you want to view replays in. All of these replays will be in 1.11, so set your program to this patch)


2-Gate Zealot Builds:
On maps like guillotine, my preferred opening is 2 gate. I also do 2 gate builds in close positions on LT, and maps that have closer starting positions to each other. (I will use guillotine and close position LT as my 2 constant examples). There are exceptions to this rule though, i.e. if your opponent is cross map from you, it is not optimal to 2 gate.

I would move out, make your pylon as close to your choke as possible, then scout in an optimal direction. (This will take some timing practice as you need to find the optimal time for a probe to start moving out). For example, if you are 3:00 on LT, make your pylon just above your ramp, then scout towards 12:00. If you are on guillotine, make your pylon in the area connecting your main to your natural, then scout cross map. The idea behind scouting here is, you scout in the direction that will change your strategy. Under normal circumstances on LT, I would 1 gate while on guillotine I would 2 gate. However, in the special close position scenario on LT and far position on guillotine, I would adapt my normal strategy.

Assume that when you scout you find your opponent to be in a position close to you. So on LT, your opponent is at 12, while on guillotine your opponent is NOT cross map. You should make your first gateway on 10 always, then your second on 12, both as close to your opponent as possible without inhibiting exit from your base or building placement. Make a pylon soon after and start rallying your gates to his base.

Scenarios that will occur:
1. Your opponent will also 2 gate. In this situation, be aware of whose gateway finishes first, as a zealot race will surely ensue. If his zealot finishes first and goes off to the races to your base, block your ramp. The reasoning behind this is, he could kill an extra probe in the time it takes your zealot to reach him, and now you are behind. It is extremely important in mirror matches that you try and stay ahead, not only in efficiency, but also with tech and units. This being said, keep your probe alive in his base, and use your judgment on whether to bring your units to him and pressure, or to defend and start teching. In either case I would try to gas before him. After gas, I would make a few goons then decide on a plan of action. Subscenarios that could occur:

a. Your opponent continued pumping zealots like a madman and didn’t tech fast enough. In a situation like this, either DT or reaver tech will work very nicely. If it is on guillotine, I would lead towards the dt route, while on LT I would lean towards a reaver route to give you more scouting options (i.e. dropping a probe off in his base by way of shuttle).

b. Your opponent made a few goons and dispatched of your probe. Make your robo, get shuttle, observer and reaver in that order, sending your shuttle to his base with 2 probes to scout, and your observer to your choke to prevent any dt raids. If he went 3 gate goon, make a few goons and expo with 2 reavers. If he went 2 gate goon, robo expo, throw up a 3rd gate, pressure him and take the expo down with reaver/goon support. If he went dt, defend your ramp, drop a probe off on his cliff (if lt obviously), and tech dt yourself. The best counter to someone going DT is a DT counter as they are far behind in cloak scouting. Keep good tabs on him to see if he makes a robo and if he decides to start mixing in stormers with his slashers.

2. Your opponent does not 2 gate. If he fast goons, you have a ton of options, one being eri’s prison, another being just continuous pressure while teching. If you choose to pressure, take care of your zealots, make sure they aren’t running around after goons while they get sniped with aid from probes. Send some zeals at goons, while others work on probes. You want to hurt his economy while boosting yours. If he 1 gate zealots and techs, pressure him a bit, but tech sooner. You shouldn’t rely on a zealot rush to win because it could easily backfire on you. You also need to start teching asap in case he does as well. If your rush fails and he is far ahead in tech and you are left guessing which tech route he chose, you are in serious trouble. Throw up a robo after your core finishes, and just start pumping goons. You need detection sooner and you need more goons. You have to be very meticulous playing like this. If he goes reaver, you need to scout well, protect your mineral lines, be ready to expand on the spot if he does and also be able to slow his attacks while you build up. Unit positioning in games like this are critical, you need to make the most of your goon armies against reavers. Another note on anti reaver games: I tend to tech to templars later in these games, sticking with mainly goons for a while to counter his goon/reaver armies. I’ll get to a lot of the mid game stuff in a bit.

1 gate build:
I label this as a 1 gate build because I don’t open with 2 gate zealots. This is my standard build which I use on most maps, except for early expo maps or highly adaptive maps (like chow chow, where I just make up my build as I go along). Make your pylon on 8, gate on 10, assim on 12, make a few zealots, then core, blah blah. Basically just do your favorite 1 gate Protoss opening till you get a cyber core. If your opponent 2 gates and does not seem to be letting up you might want to make a 2nd gateway after your assim then pump zealots for a little while. Otherwise, make your cyber core first, then decide what to do.

With these builds, you have 2 primary options and a secondary option depending on your opponent. The 2 main options are 2 gate goon followed up with robo then 3 gate goon/obs or 2 gate goon into reaver. Your secondary option is to go dt, which I don’t advise as more than a situational/surprise/change up strat.

3 gate goon: As stated before, this type of strategy is heavily based on scouting, unit positioning and reaction. Ill explain mostly what to do against reaver, cause that’s the hardest. You need to keep observers scouting everywhere searching for roaming shuttles (ill supply a replay of what can go wrong when going goons and losing sight of shuttles), pressure with your units so if your opponent goes reaver he must slowly advance while you can build up. Your goal with the pressure is to be able to build 6 extra goons before your opponent arrives. You must keep a probe at his expansion and do not expand until he expands. If he goes 3 gate goon/reaver and just pumps units he will run you over. If your money starts to build up and he has no expansions, throw down a 4th gateway. Keep an active check on island expansions, other mains, and everywhere he could possibly expand just to make sure hes not making a hidden expo on you. After you expand, throw up another gate and pump goons for a while, and when you have money for it, then tech to templars with zealot speed. You should keep goon production up for longer to counter his reaver/goons and THEN switch over to zealot/temp.

if your opponent doesn’t reaver, you have some other options. I tend to try and expo a little late to be on the safe side, cause I feel comfortable entering a macro war with someone, then I just macro to all hell.

2 gate+reaver: I like going reaver cause it allows an easier expansion. I feel a little constricted doing this because its against my style. Im slow, and I like having a lot of obs everywhere. However, if you go reaver, you might want to add shuttle speed, do some raids every so often, possibly take an island, and do much more active pressuring. the 3 gate goon pressuring is passive, you adapt to his attacks and back off slowly. this pressuring has to force his units back, put him in an uncomfortable position, and set up your expansions/macro.

The mid game is just a flat out macro battle with intense unit positioning. The micro is minimal, but you need to have great scouting, keep up with upgrades, good storming and good multitasking. If you have the speed for it, storm drops are great. The ultimate goal of mid game is to secure at least 3 gas and be pumping zeal/archon/temp like its your job.

Late game is the same as mid game, just more of it. I throw in arbiters after I have 3 gas secured and 2+ forges upgrading. They are extremely useful, especially in max out games and games where opponents try and carrier surprise you.

To sum it up, the keys to pvp are:
1. scouting constantly, not only for shuttles carrying payloads of reavers/temps, but for expansions, particularly ones that could get easily fortified and impenetrable
2. macro macro macro
3. upgrading
4. efficiency
5. unit positioning
6. countering


here is a rep of me v rek on chow chow where i lose. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=27932

notice the power of arbiters, how much scouting helps, the slightly weird strat in the beginning, and the adaptations. ill add more later too, sorry if its a little convoluted, just wanted to get some stuff out there cause i dont see much good shit on pvp.

http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=27957

This game shows how much countering dt with dt works. I get off to a huge advantage by surprising rek with dt after he opens them. It also shows what can happen if I fight without my entire army, I leave a lot of shit behind and nearly lose the game, but manage to even it off cause of my lead. It shows the importance of upgrades and unit positioning, especially holding bridges. It shows the importance of scouting (imagine how much better I would have done with a dt at each expo slowing his income rate) and how much storm drops can slow an opponent. And finally, it shows how much arbiters can turn a game around, look at the stasis at the end, his entire army frozen, and im left to finish him off.

On January 06 2006 19:09 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Right, right, all we need now is someone to bump the PvZ topic and we'll have the whole troika =)

As a general rule, I say you should usually double gate on maps with chokes that are double wide, unless they are absolutely huge and the positions do not allow it. For instance, on ParanoidAndroid (if I remember correctly), where the choke is double wide and the positions are set to be close, you must always double gate. On Bladestorm where the choke is wide but the positions can be far you can add gas or double gate, as long as you don\'t gay it up with a too fast cybernetics; you have to be ready to deal with double gate, and you need to get out at least two zealots to block his first one before adding a cyb.

If your opponent also two gates still rush your first zealot. I don\'t really think you thought of the timing. If you two gate your 2nd and 3rd zealot come out at the same time. Therefore, you\'re not going to be able to block your ramp untill you have your third zealot. Why not rush the lot if he plays poorly and rushes his next two lots you can get a lot in his base while he\'s left at your door.

On LT I NEVER use DT tech after your enemy zealot pumps... except if I\'m going for the drop. If he pumps zealots he knows he\'ll have later goons, so he compensates with cannons (and usually an early expo). In that case you\'ll have templar tech while he has an expo, and probably a rob bay coming. A quick drop does own though. I suggest fast ranged goons to reaver for the win, though.

No offense, that shuttle thing SUCKS. It serves no purpose besides losing you two probes and a whole shitload of attention (you can\'t lose that shuttle).

If he\'s slow on his second gate you should rush and make your priority his goons and his pylons. If he has a faster double gate you should make killing his econ your priority and have zealots chasing goons for a distraction to that (at least that\'s how I do it). If he techs faster I\'ll 21 gas 22 pylon and probes until I have the supply for zealots number 4 and 5. Essentially you\'re not going for the kill, but keep your econ and tech strong.

As for reavers, they become basically useless in a straight out fight versus templars... the only problem is in early game if you start teching to them you\'ll be run over if you try to expo. As for waiting for him to expand before you do... that depends on the map. On LT that\'s basically true. On bladestorm that\'s not at all true. On rush hour you can definitely get the expo jump if you want.

Arbiters should not be used pvp in 90/100 situations. If you start teching to arbiters chances are you\'ll be overun just as you get them. The stargate, the arbiter tribunal, the arbiter, the upgrades... it puts you back. Once I get three gases I whore archons.

On January 06 2006 19:14 wastoid wrote:


What's the big deal about bumping old threads anyway? People complain when someone posts a new subject that's already been discussed in an old thread, but then people complain when someone actually takes the time to search for an old thread and posts there instead!!

Are you just supposed to never talk about a topic once it's been discussed "enough"? Since this thread is called "pvp strategy" and it's relatively old, are we expected to never again discuss PvP strategy until the end of time because this thread is old and posting a new one would be repeating an already-discussed topic?

I don't know, it just seems a little ridiculous. I'm trying to understand.

On January 07 2006 08:34 Knickknack wrote:
Well, ill just say that I doubt this is viable at high skill levels as I have not seen anythign like that before. Good players just don't play like that. I suspect It woudl be easy and I'd just overrun him if he treis to expo 2x. I''m really not sure of your skill levels and how the games are, so reps woudl be good.

On January 07 2006 11:51 GeneralCash wrote:
words

On January 07 2006 08:09 GeneralCash wrote:
wow, finally a productive thread in the strats forum.