It's been quite a while since I've played BW, let alone written any sort of strategy help. However, it's not like I really forgot anything, maybe some timing issues, but I think I can still explain the game as lucidly as in the past.
I just learned of a new patch that has come out since my absence, although I am not aware of any major balance changes (albeit i haven’t even looked at the patch). So I will assume my old style of play would work just as effectively now as it did in the past.
There are 3 or 4 strategies I commonly use when I play PvP, and adaptations to all of them. These strategies depend on map, opponent, and simply the mood I'm in. I'll go through each one in detail and describe when I would use each, hopefully along with some replays for reference use.
(NOTE: I have become aware of a program that can quickly change the patch you want to view replays in. All of these replays will be in 1.11, so set your program to this patch)
2-Gate Zealot Builds: On maps like guillotine, my preferred opening is 2 gate. I also do 2 gate builds in close positions on LT, and maps that have closer starting positions to each other. (I will use guillotine and close position LT as my 2 constant examples). There are exceptions to this rule though, i.e. if your opponent is cross map from you, it is not optimal to 2 gate.
I would move out, make your pylon as close to your choke as possible, then scout in an optimal direction. (This will take some timing practice as you need to find the optimal time for a probe to start moving out). For example, if you are 3:00 on LT, make your pylon just above your ramp, then scout towards 12:00. If you are on guillotine, make your pylon in the area connecting your main to your natural, then scout cross map. The idea behind scouting here is, you scout in the direction that will change your strategy. Under normal circumstances on LT, I would 1 gate while on guillotine I would 2 gate. However, in the special close position scenario on LT and far position on guillotine, I would adapt my normal strategy.
Assume that when you scout you find your opponent to be in a position close to you. So on LT, your opponent is at 12, while on guillotine your opponent is NOT cross map. You should make your first gateway on 10 always, then your second on 12, both as close to your opponent as possible without inhibiting exit from your base or building placement. Make a pylon soon after and start rallying your gates to his base.
Scenarios that will occur: 1. Your opponent will also 2 gate. In this situation, be aware of whose gateway finishes first, as a zealot race will surely ensue. If his zealot finishes first and goes off to the races to your base, block your ramp. The reasoning behind this is, he could kill an extra probe in the time it takes your zealot to reach him, and now you are behind. It is extremely important in mirror matches that you try and stay ahead, not only in efficiency, but also with tech and units. This being said, keep your probe alive in his base, and use your judgment on whether to bring your units to him and pressure, or to defend and start teching. In either case I would try to gas before him. After gas, I would make a few goons then decide on a plan of action. Subscenarios that could occur: a. Your opponent continued pumping zealots like a madman and didn’t tech fast enough. In a situation like this, either DT or reaver tech will work very nicely. If it is on guillotine, I would lead towards the dt route, while on LT I would lean towards a reaver route to give you more scouting options (i.e. dropping a probe off in his base by way of shuttle). b. Your opponent made a few goons and dispatched of your probe. Make your robo, get shuttle, observer and reaver in that order, sending your shuttle to his base with 2 probes to scout, and your observer to your choke to prevent any dt raids. If he went 3 gate goon, make a few goons and expo with 2 reavers. If he went 2 gate goon, robo expo, throw up a 3rd gate, pressure him and take the expo down with reaver/goon support. If he went dt, defend your ramp, drop a probe off on his cliff (if lt obviously), and tech dt yourself. The best counter to someone going DT is a DT counter as they are far behind in cloak scouting. Keep good tabs on him to see if he makes a robo and if he decides to start mixing in stormers with his slashers.
2. Your opponent does not 2 gate. If he fast goons, you have a ton of options, one being eri’s prison, another being just continuous pressure while teching. If you choose to pressure, take care of your zealots, make sure they aren’t running around after goons while they get sniped with aid from probes. Send some zeals at goons, while others work on probes. You want to hurt his economy while boosting yours. If he 1 gate zealots and techs, pressure him a bit, but tech sooner. You shouldn’t rely on a zealot rush to win because it could easily backfire on you. You also need to start teching asap in case he does as well. If your rush fails and he is far ahead in tech and you are left guessing which tech route he chose, you are in serious trouble. Throw up a robo after your core finishes, and just start pumping goons. You need detection sooner and you need more goons. You have to be very meticulous playing like this. If he goes reaver, you need to scout well, protect your mineral lines, be ready to expand on the spot if he does and also be able to slow his attacks while you build up. Unit positioning in games like this are critical, you need to make the most of your goon armies against reavers. Another note on anti reaver games: I tend to tech to templars later in these games, sticking with mainly goons for a while to counter his goon/reaver armies. I’ll get to a lot of the mid game stuff in a bit.
1 gate build: I label this as a 1 gate build because I don’t open with 2 gate zealots. This is my standard build which I use on most maps, except for early expo maps or highly adaptive maps (like chow chow, where I just make up my build as I go along). Make your pylon on 8, gate on 10, assim on 12, make a few zealots, then core, blah blah. Basically just do your favorite 1 gate Protoss opening till you get a cyber core. If your opponent 2 gates and does not seem to be letting up you might want to make a 2nd gateway after your assim then pump zealots for a little while. Otherwise, make your cyber core first, then decide what to do.
With these builds, you have 2 primary options and a secondary option depending on your opponent. The 2 main options are 2 gate goon followed up with robo then 3 gate goon/obs or 2 gate goon into reaver. Your secondary option is to go dt, which I don’t advise as more than a situational/surprise/change up strat.
3 gate goon: As stated before, this type of strategy is heavily based on scouting, unit positioning and reaction. Ill explain mostly what to do against reaver, cause that’s the hardest. You need to keep observers scouting everywhere searching for roaming shuttles (ill supply a replay of what can go wrong when going goons and losing sight of shuttles), pressure with your units so if your opponent goes reaver he must slowly advance while you can build up. Your goal with the pressure is to be able to build 6 extra goons before your opponent arrives. You must keep a probe at his expansion and do not expand until he expands. If he goes 3 gate goon/reaver and just pumps units he will run you over. If your money starts to build up and he has no expansions, throw down a 4th gateway. Keep an active check on island expansions, other mains, and everywhere he could possibly expand just to make sure hes not making a hidden expo on you. After you expand, throw up another gate and pump goons for a while, and when you have money for it, then tech to templars with zealot speed. You should keep goon production up for longer to counter his reaver/goons and THEN switch over to zealot/temp.
if your opponent doesn’t reaver, you have some other options. I tend to try and expo a little late to be on the safe side, cause I feel comfortable entering a macro war with someone, then I just macro to all hell.
2 gate+reaver: I like going reaver cause it allows an easier expansion. I feel a little constricted doing this because its against my style. Im slow, and I like having a lot of obs everywhere. However, if you go reaver, you might want to add shuttle speed, do some raids every so often, possibly take an island, and do much more active pressuring. the 3 gate goon pressuring is passive, you adapt to his attacks and back off slowly. this pressuring has to force his units back, put him in an uncomfortable position, and set up your expansions/macro.
The mid game is just a flat out macro battle with intense unit positioning. The micro is minimal, but you need to have great scouting, keep up with upgrades, good storming and good multitasking. If you have the speed for it, storm drops are great. The ultimate goal of mid game is to secure at least 3 gas and be pumping zeal/archon/temp like its your job.
Late game is the same as mid game, just more of it. I throw in arbiters after I have 3 gas secured and 2+ forges upgrading. They are extremely useful, especially in max out games and games where opponents try and carrier surprise you.
To sum it up, the keys to pvp are: 1. scouting constantly, not only for shuttles carrying payloads of reavers/temps, but for expansions, particularly ones that could get easily fortified and impenetrable 2. macro macro macro 3. upgrading 4. efficiency 5. unit positioning 6. countering
notice the power of arbiters, how much scouting helps, the slightly weird strat in the beginning, and the adaptations. ill add more later too, sorry if its a little convoluted, just wanted to get some stuff out there cause i dont see much good shit on pvp.
This game shows how much countering dt with dt works. I get off to a huge advantage by surprising rek with dt after he opens them. It also shows what can happen if I fight without my entire army, I leave a lot of shit behind and nearly lose the game, but manage to even it off cause of my lead. It shows the importance of upgrades and unit positioning, especially holding bridges. It shows the importance of scouting (imagine how much better I would have done with a dt at each expo slowing his income rate) and how much storm drops can slow an opponent. And finally, it shows how much arbiters can turn a game around, look at the stasis at the end, his entire army frozen, and im left to finish him off.
On April 12 2005 14:17 BigBalls wrote: (NOTE: I have become aware of a program that can quickly change the patch you want to view replays in. All of these replays will be in 1.11, so set your program to this patch)
Yes, the 7x patcher. Let me get a link for you. Edit: 7x Patcher There we go.
I like to see some pvp stuff since im just feeling like im getting a decent idea of the matchup. Its pretty damn complicated. Harder then pvt, but the overall game pretty learnable unlike pvz. :/
I hope you dont mind if i comment/ask questions in detail, but you typed you were not done yet so ill wait until you finish.
I've written up a bit of stuff about pvp and ill post this part I've just edited:
____________________________________________________________________ Template of pvp builds (earlygame):
-2gate builds: --9/10g --10/12gate ->15z,17z --10/12gate -> 15-16p -> 172xZ **note that other gate builds are certainly possible, but these 3 are the main ones used. Don't see why anyone would have a great reason for using something else.
-1gate core builds: **note that builds are done with the usually 10g ->12assim->13core. --core->goon --core->zeal->goon
-1gate zeal builds: **note that the following builds may be done with p or assim right after gate build. --z -> core -> goon --z-> z-> core -> goon --z-> z-> core -> z -> goon --z-> core -> z -> goon **I suppose others may be used, but, (again) i dont see why anyone would want to. **note that core and/or goon may be delayed in favor of getting a faster 2nd gate (usually done vs. a 2gate build). **note that in the 6v9 position on LT players sometimes go robo before goon.
-Other: --Early expo --early forge builds --any other odd builds i may have forgotten or not know about. --any spicific parts of the other builds i did not cover ;p **dont mind the BIG 4 options list with these
After those openings there are 4 BIG options: -G (but, not if you went for 2gate before core, obvisouly) -range -robo -citadel ___________________________________________________________________
Probably does not help signifiantly with ones game, but its nice to see all the info in front of me.
the most important part about pvp is having your entire army together. if you leave units behind you are being extremely inefficient. this is really covered by efficiency but it isnt explicit.
I might as well post this here. Say its 12P v 6P. Im at 12, and we both have fairly large goon armies. Ive probably already taken my natural and 3min only, maybe even 3's main. I usually like to position a group of goons off towards 9's choke and one towards 3's choke, and leave the rest above near 3min only and my main. The enemy usually goes right for my min only/main and then I am free to circle them with all the goons that come from 3 sides. This is a good idea? Or should I keep them all clumped up near the 3min only?
by that point in the game, you shouldnt have mainly goons. your army should consist mainly of zealots/archons/templars. so setting up flanks isnt as necessary, you just need your units spread out a bit.
On April 12 2005 20:56 BigBalls wrote: by that point in the game, you shouldnt have mainly goons. your army should consist mainly of zealots/archons/templars. so setting up flanks isnt as necessary, you just need your units spread out a bit.
Ok, thanks I guess Ill have to work on that and try going zeal/archon/templar.
I liked how the best counter to dts was dts. No one expects someone to counter dts with dts, they just expect you to turtle with a cannon until you get obs or something
On April 14 2005 13:50 hasuwar wrote: I liked how the best counter to dts was dts. No one expects someone to counter dts with dts, they just expect you to turtle with a cannon until you get obs or something
I thought that countering dts with dts was commonplace
Nice one, just as I play PvP mostly(well I never use arbiters, but the rest is quite the same)...I just have to keep myself thinking about these things in game Again: gj!
I really like the advice, being a terran player i can appreciate it as information i might oneday use when i learn toss, something i have put off to master Terran. TeRrAn rOcKs
if anyone makes it back this far, you're just stupid. but in any case, and im sincere when i say i dont mean to be rude, but that is the biggest bunch of bullshit ive seen about pvp. im not that much of a p player, but i know that really all you need to do is have a 1up in expos, do some decent microing, and basically do reaver/zeal drops on expos, and build up ur mobile army of temp/archon/goon, if you have the econ. early game is just zeal/goon into zeal/goon/temp(storm). as the aforementioned stated, reaver/zeal drops are very effective, especially if they have just started the expo and have no units pumping out of gateways in that spot. if im wrong about this, then so be it, but ive won many pvp games doing that, and i was playing against relatively gosu p players, and im a z myself.
On April 29 2005 12:13 iD.eMiNeM wrote: if anyone makes it back this far, you're just stupid. but in any case, and im sincere when i say i dont mean to be rude, but that is the biggest bunch of bullshit ive seen about pvp. im not that much of a p player, but i know that really all you need to do is have a 1up in expos, do some decent microing, and basically do reaver/zeal drops on expos, and build up ur mobile army of temp/archon/goon, if you have the econ. early game is just zeal/goon into zeal/goon/temp(storm). as the aforementioned stated, reaver/zeal drops are very effective, especially if they have just started the expo and have no units pumping out of gateways in that spot. if im wrong about this, then so be it, but ive won many pvp games doing that, and i was playing against relatively gosu p players, and im a z myself.
On April 29 2005 12:13 iD.eMiNeM wrote: if anyone makes it back this far, you're just stupid. but in any case, and im sincere when i say i dont mean to be rude, but that is the biggest bunch of bullshit ive seen about pvp. im not that much of a p player, but i know that really all you need to do is have a 1up in expos, do some decent microing, and basically do reaver/zeal drops on expos, and build up ur mobile army of temp/archon/goon, if you have the econ. early game is just zeal/goon into zeal/goon/temp(storm). as the aforementioned stated, reaver/zeal drops are very effective, especially if they have just started the expo and have no units pumping out of gateways in that spot. if im wrong about this, then so be it, but ive won many pvp games doing that, and i was playing against relatively gosu p players, and im a z myself.
so you say what im doing is bullshit, yet you refute none of it. interesting....
But if he goes 2gate, do not pump zealots for a while. Just get goons and micro his zeals out. At this point each single mineral he has spent in zeals is a wasted one - slow zeals are kinda useless vs. goons, aren't they?
It's been quite a while since I've played BW, let alone written any sort of strategy help. However, it's not like I really forgot anything, maybe some timing issues, but I think I can still explain the game as lucidly as in the past.
I just learned of a new patch that has come out since my absence, although I am not aware of any major balance changes (albeit i haven’t even looked at the patch). So I will assume my old style of play would work just as effectively now as it did in the past.
There are 3 or 4 strategies I commonly use when I play PvP, and adaptations to all of them. These strategies depend on map, opponent, and simply the mood I'm in. I'll go through each one in detail and describe when I would use each, hopefully along with some replays for reference use.
(NOTE: I have become aware of a program that can quickly change the patch you want to view replays in. All of these replays will be in 1.11, so set your program to this patch)
2-Gate Zealot Builds: On maps like guillotine, my preferred opening is 2 gate. I also do 2 gate builds in close positions on LT, and maps that have closer starting positions to each other. (I will use guillotine and close position LT as my 2 constant examples). There are exceptions to this rule though, i.e. if your opponent is cross map from you, it is not optimal to 2 gate.
As a general rule, I say you should usually double gate on maps with chokes that are double wide, unless they are absolutely huge and the positions do not allow it. For instance, on ParanoidAndroid (if I remember correctly), where the choke is double wide and the positions are set to be close, you must always double gate. On Bladestorm where the choke is wide but the positions can be far you can add gas or double gate, as long as you don't gay it up with a too fast cybernetics; you have to be ready to deal with double gate, and you need to get out at least two zealots to block his first one before adding a cyb.
I would move out, make your pylon as close to your choke as possible, then scout in an optimal direction. (This will take some timing practice as you need to find the optimal time for a probe to start moving out). For example, if you are 3:00 on LT, make your pylon just above your ramp, then scout towards 12:00. If you are on guillotine, make your pylon in the area connecting your main to your natural, then scout cross map. The idea behind scouting here is, you scout in the direction that will change your strategy. Under normal circumstances on LT, I would 1 gate while on guillotine I would 2 gate. However, in the special close position scenario on LT and far position on guillotine, I would adapt my normal strategy.
Assume that when you scout you find your opponent to be in a position close to you. So on LT, your opponent is at 12, while on guillotine your opponent is NOT cross map. You should make your first gateway on 10 always, then your second on 12, both as close to your opponent as possible without inhibiting exit from your base or building placement. Make a pylon soon after and start rallying your gates to his base.
Assuming an scouting probe I don't think you'd be able to change your gateway timing. Heck, even going from 9 to 12 assuming an 8 scout you should be warping in that 10 gateway before you get in his base. I may be misunderstanding something, but otherwise to do what you say you'd have to scout on 7 and generally change your play.
Plus, this isn't something that requires practice. On LT when you're at 12 you always scout to 3. When at 3 you always scout to twelve. Just always scout the nearest position to you. I suppose there could be some benifits to scouting other postions... but you'd mess yourself up in a dozen other ways.
Scenarios that will occur: 1. Your opponent will also 2 gate. In this situation, be aware of whose gateway finishes first, as a zealot race will surely ensue. If his zealot finishes first and goes off to the races to your base, block your ramp. The reasoning behind this is, he could kill an extra probe in the time it takes your zealot to reach him, and now you are behind. It is extremely important in mirror matches that you try and stay ahead, not only in efficiency, but also with tech and units. This being said, keep your probe alive in his base, and use your judgment on whether to bring your units to him and pressure, or to defend and start teching. In either case I would try to gas before him. After gas, I would make a few goons then decide on a plan of action. Subscenarios that could occur:
If your opponent also two gates still rush your first zealot. I don't really think you thought of the timing. If you two gate your 2nd and 3rd zealot come out at the same time. Therefore, you're not going to be able to block your ramp untill you have your third zealot. Why not rush the lot if he plays poorly and rushes his next two lots you can get a lot in his base while he's left at your door.
a. Your opponent continued pumping zealots like a madman and didn’t tech fast enough. In a situation like this, either DT or reaver tech will work very nicely. If it is on guillotine, I would lead towards the dt route, while on LT I would lean towards a reaver route to give you more scouting options (i.e. dropping a probe off in his base by way of shuttle).
On LT I NEVER use DT tech after your enemy zealot pumps... except if I'm going for the drop. If he pumps zealots he knows he'll have later goons, so he compensates with cannons (and usually an early expo). In that case you'll have templar tech while he has an expo, and probably a rob bay coming. A quick drop does own though. I suggest fast ranged goons to reaver for the win, though.
b. Your opponent made a few goons and dispatched of your probe. Make your robo, get shuttle, observer and reaver in that order, sending your shuttle to his base with 2 probes to scout, and your observer to your choke to prevent any dt raids. If he went 3 gate goon, make a few goons and expo with 2 reavers. If he went 2 gate goon, robo expo, throw up a 3rd gate, pressure him and take the expo down with reaver/goon support. If he went dt, defend your ramp, drop a probe off on his cliff (if lt obviously), and tech dt yourself. The best counter to someone going DT is a DT counter as they are far behind in cloak scouting. Keep good tabs on him to see if he makes a robo and if he decides to start mixing in stormers with his slashers.
No offense, that shuttle thing SUCKS. It serves no purpose besides losing you two probes and a whole shitload of attention (you can't lose that shuttle).
2. Your opponent does not 2 gate. If he fast goons, you have a ton of options, one being eri’s prison, another being just continuous pressure while teching. If you choose to pressure, take care of your zealots, make sure they aren’t running around after goons while they get sniped with aid from probes. Send some zeals at goons, while others work on probes. You want to hurt his economy while boosting yours. If he 1 gate zealots and techs, pressure him a bit, but tech sooner. You shouldn’t rely on a zealot rush to win because it could easily backfire on you. You also need to start teching asap in case he does as well. If your rush fails and he is far ahead in tech and you are left guessing which tech route he chose, you are in serious trouble. Throw up a robo after your core finishes, and just start pumping goons. You need detection sooner and you need more goons. You have to be very meticulous playing like this. If he goes reaver, you need to scout well, protect your mineral lines, be ready to expand on the spot if he does and also be able to slow his attacks while you build up. Unit positioning in games like this are critical, you need to make the most of your goon armies against reavers. Another note on anti reaver games: I tend to tech to templars later in these games, sticking with mainly goons for a while to counter his goon/reaver armies. I’ll get to a lot of the mid game stuff in a bit.
If he's slow on his second gate you should rush and make your priority his goons and his pylons. If he has a faster double gate you should make killing his econ your priority and have zealots chasing goons for a distraction to that (at least that's how I do it). If he techs faster I'll 21 gas 22 pylon and probes until I have the supply for zealots number 4 and 5. Essentially you're not going for the kill, but keep your econ and tech strong.
As for reavers, they become basically useless in a straight out fight versus templars... the only problem is in early game if you start teching to them you'll be run over if you try to expo. As for waiting for him to expand before you do... that depends on the map. On LT that's basically true. On bladestorm that's not at all true. On rush hour you can definitely get the expo jump if you want.
1 gate build: I label this as a 1 gate build because I don’t open with 2 gate zealots. This is my standard build which I use on most maps, except for early expo maps or highly adaptive maps (like chow chow, where I just make up my build as I go along). Make your pylon on 8, gate on 10, assim on 12, make a few zealots, then core, blah blah. Basically just do your favorite 1 gate Protoss opening till you get a cyber core. If your opponent 2 gates and does not seem to be letting up you might want to make a 2nd gateway after your assim then pump zealots for a little while. Otherwise, make your cyber core first, then decide what to do.
Just a fun thing to do in game: If he doesn't gas on 21 gas him and add a shield battery and prepare to hold that choke. If he pulls of zealots, congrats, you've got a bit more time. If he doesn't he's either going to rush for the kill or early expo. That way you can sometimes know what he's doing.
With these builds, you have 2 primary options and a secondary option depending on your opponent. The 2 main options are 2 gate goon followed up with robo then 3 gate goon/obs or 2 gate goon into reaver. Your secondary option is to go dt, which I don’t advise as more than a situational/surprise/change up strat.
3 gate goon: As stated before, this type of strategy is heavily based on scouting, unit positioning and reaction. Ill explain mostly what to do against reaver, cause that’s the hardest. You need to keep observers scouting everywhere searching for roaming shuttles (ill supply a replay of what can go wrong when going goons and losing sight of shuttles), pressure with your units so if your opponent goes reaver he must slowly advance while you can build up. Your goal with the pressure is to be able to build 6 extra goons before your opponent arrives. You must keep a probe at his expansion and do not expand until he expands. If he goes 3 gate goon/reaver and just pumps units he will run you over. If your money starts to build up and he has no expansions, throw down a 4th gateway. Keep an active check on island expansions, other mains, and everywhere he could possibly expand just to make sure hes not making a hidden expo on you. After you expand, throw up another gate and pump goons for a while, and when you have money for it, then tech to templars with zealot speed. You should keep goon production up for longer to counter his reaver/goons and THEN switch over to zealot/temp.
In pvp you should NEVER have groups of observers roaming. EVER. Gas my friend, gas. In the early game you should cover your minerals with goons. Later on you put one obs on your cliff. If you see a speedy shuttle earlier on then maybe you put one out away from your mains minerals. As the game goes on, you throw down a cannon and make sure to keep obs out, and you should be fine. If he reaver teched and has a two reaver shuttle then if he moves out with it you can often counter and kill him even if he get some probes.
if your opponent doesn’t reaver, you have some other options. I tend to try and expo a little late to be on the safe side, cause I feel comfortable entering a macro war with someone, then I just macro to all hell.
I know how you feel. In pvp every probe counts so delaying them for a reaver and getting a faster expo can end up slowing you down.
2 gate+reaver: I like going reaver cause it allows an easier expansion. I feel a little constricted doing this because its against my style. Im slow, and I like having a lot of obs everywhere. However, if you go reaver, you might want to add shuttle speed, do some raids every so often, possibly take an island, and do much more active pressuring. the 3 gate goon pressuring is passive, you adapt to his attacks and back off slowly. this pressuring has to force his units back, put him in an uncomfortable position, and set up your expansions/macro.
The mid game is just a flat out macro battle with intense unit positioning. The micro is minimal, but you need to have great scouting, keep up with upgrades, good storming and good multitasking. If you have the speed for it, storm drops are great. The ultimate goal of mid game is to secure at least 3 gas and be pumping zeal/archon/temp like its your job.
Late game is the same as mid game, just more of it. I throw in arbiters after I have 3 gas secured and 2+ forges upgrading. They are extremely useful, especially in max out games and games where opponents try and carrier surprise you.
To sum it up, the keys to pvp are: 1. scouting constantly, not only for shuttles carrying payloads of reavers/temps, but for expansions, particularly ones that could get easily fortified and impenetrable 2. macro macro macro 3. upgrading 4. efficiency 5. unit positioning 6. countering
notice the power of arbiters, how much scouting helps, the slightly weird strat in the beginning, and the adaptations. ill add more later too, sorry if its a little convoluted, just wanted to get some stuff out there cause i dont see much good shit on pvp.
Arbiters should not be used pvp in 90/100 situations. If you start teching to arbiters chances are you'll be overun just as you get them. The stargate, the arbiter tribunal, the arbiter, the upgrades... it puts you back. Once I get three gases I whore archons.
EDIT: here is a 2nd replay that shows a lot of important things about pvp.
This game shows how much countering dt with dt works. I get off to a huge advantage by surprising rek with dt after he opens them. It also shows what can happen if I fight without my entire army, I leave a lot of shit behind and nearly lose the game, but manage to even it off cause of my lead. It shows the importance of upgrades and unit positioning, especially holding bridges. It shows the importance of scouting (imagine how much better I would have done with a dt at each expo slowing his income rate) and how much storm drops can slow an opponent. And finally, it shows how much arbiters can turn a game around, look at the stasis at the end, his entire army frozen, and im left to finish him off.
Good games.
Yeah I know I bumped a thread, but it's strategy and I felt like reading some strategy :/
On January 06 2006 19:09 GrandInquisitor wrote: Right, right, all we need now is someone to bump the PvZ topic and we'll have the whole troika =)
What's the big deal about bumping old threads anyway? People complain when someone posts a new subject that's already been discussed in an old thread, but then people complain when someone actually takes the time to search for an old thread and posts there instead!!
Are you just supposed to never talk about a topic once it's been discussed "enough"? Since this thread is called "pvp strategy" and it's relatively old, are we expected to never again discuss PvP strategy until the end of time because this thread is old and posting a new one would be repeating an already-discussed topic?
I don't know, it just seems a little ridiculous. I'm trying to understand.
As a general rule, I say you should usually double gate on maps with chokes that are double wide, unless they are absolutely huge and the positions do not allow it. For instance, on ParanoidAndroid (if I remember correctly), where the choke is double wide and the positions are set to be close, you must always double gate. On Bladestorm where the choke is wide but the positions can be far you can add gas or double gate, as long as you don\'t gay it up with a too fast cybernetics; you have to be ready to deal with double gate, and you need to get out at least two zealots to block his first one before adding a cyb.
Maps like luna then. I don't agree with this. Watch foru vs fisheye on pa. Foru does the basic 2zgatez2z counter to a 2gate build and holds fisheye off easily and goes on to win. Your reasoning is based mostly on saftey vs 2gate. In the foru vs fish game they both manner plyon each other so they dont attack with their first zeal.
I agree with both of you on scouting. Its really as simple as scout the closest position by land first. Scout on 8p if you plan to tech. Scout on 10g if you plan to go 2gate. Dunno about gul cross map scout.
If your opponent also two gates still rush your first zealot. I don\'t really think you thought of the timing. If you two gate your 2nd and 3rd zealot come out at the same time. Therefore, you\'re not going to be able to block your ramp untill you have your third zealot. Why not rush the lot if he plays poorly and rushes his next two lots you can get a lot in his base while he\'s left at your door.
Not a bad idea. But notice that he usually likes to get faster tech when its 2g vs 2g and thus probably focus on defense rather then harass.
On LT I NEVER use DT tech after your enemy zealot pumps... except if I\'m going for the drop. If he pumps zealots he knows he\'ll have later goons, so he compensates with cannons (and usually an early expo). In that case you\'ll have templar tech while he has an expo, and probably a rob bay coming. A quick drop does own though. I suggest fast ranged goons to reaver for the win, though.
I agree with this for the most part. Of course there are situations were dt can clench the win, say if they go 2gate, proxy 2gate mass zeal.
No offense, that shuttle thing SUCKS. It serves no purpose besides losing you two probes and a whole shitload of attention (you can\'t lose that shuttle).
I agree with this for the most part. I favor obs first. I understand that shuttle then ob then rever is the fastest to get those units out, but i find going fast shuttle usually hinders my macro and worsens my scouting. Only go shuttle first if you want fast drop for some reason, which i also dont usually favor.
If he\'s slow on his second gate you should rush and make your priority his goons and his pylons. If he has a faster double gate you should make killing his econ your priority and have zealots chasing goons for a distraction to that (at least that\'s how I do it). If he techs faster I\'ll 21 gas 22 pylon and probes until I have the supply for zealots number 4 and 5. Essentially you\'re not going for the kill, but keep your econ and tech strong.
Well, this is all about what you can get away with. Sure go 2gate and rush hard if hes not goign to defend well! The thing is you decide to 2gate and rush hard before you know if hes goign to adapt well or not for the most part. If he has faster 2gate(9/10) that means he has worse econ anwyay, so focus on defense, and youll overrun him later anyway. If hes not 2gateing of course that means hes teching faster. Again, we get back to what you can get away with.
As for reavers, they become basically useless in a straight out fight versus templars... the only problem is in early game if you start teching to them you\'ll be run over if you try to expo. As for waiting for him to expand before you do... that depends on the map. On LT that\'s basically true. On bladestorm that\'s not at all true. On rush hour you can definitely get the expo jump if you want.
I agree with temp > reaver for the most part as well as fast ht is not so good. I agree with your points about depending on the map. The thing about LT, just waiting for the other to expo though is a situation worth noteing. How often do you see games where both players just pump untis off of one base just waiting till the other expos? I dont see that much at all. See, players tend to think about getting away with an expo rather then preventing one. Also the situation is such that if you wait too long to attack, someone who took a chance and expoed earlier will have more mass and will be able to overrun you. Also, what about being contained?
Meh to be honest I think most people dont have much of a clue about expanding and tend to just play and do what works or \'shoot in the dark\'. I\'ll tell you how I tend to play, at least. I tend to expo just after what I consider the peak off of one base. I figure thats 8-10min. This way you can kill players who expo at say 6min while being able to defend vs people who mass off of one base because of the advantages of: a)defensive position, b) walking distence.
Also, I suppose games like this are not common considering the variety of builds/mico/maco that goes on during games.
Arbiters should not be used pvp in 90/100 situations. If you start teching to arbiters chances are you\'ll be overun just as you get them. The stargate, the arbiter tribunal, the arbiter, the upgrades... it puts you back. Once I get three gases I whore archons.
I am intrestend in what is good to do late game in pvp, because, well I pretty much never get there. I only recall 1 game out of ~100 that I remember arb. You should only make plenty of archons if he goes for zeals though. If he continues lots of goons, go for more zeals. Dts are situational, and can be quit good. What about that 1base carrier build i have seen fisheye do, viable or not? I have not considered it much.
wow, finally a productive thread in the strats forum.
one question tho.... i have lost on luna twice and lt once to a rather weird build a friend of mine does, so i would like some oppinions. the first game on luna he opened with a standard pvz-like fe build and blocks off his choke (not ramp) with forge, gate and two cannons. but instead of building a nexus, he makes a robo quite fast, and does some harass with 2 zeals and a reaver, while sneaking off a probe to an empty main. then he builds two nexus (in response to my exp) in both his nat and the empty main. also cannons up heavily the cliff of his new exp. as soon as both of his new geysers are operational, he slaps down 4 stargates (even made a scout to stop my drop harass) and the beacon, while macroing only goons out of cca 10 gates. in the meanwhile, i took my min only and another cliff by then. anyway, i was so surprised by this build i messed up quite bady and overexpanded while neglecting my macro and it was gg soon. the next game on luna he made almost identical build, but this time i scouted the cliff he took and went for his main. he was a sneaky bastard, tho, and built less cannons (3 or 4) to protect his nat, but built a second line of cannons alond with 2 batteries on the cliff of his main. he also had a few pylons and no production buildings on lower ground. it occured to me after watching the rep that he planned on loosing his nat. that was exactly what happened: i attacked after setting up my second exp (on a cliff) and getting around 130/200 and 2/1/1. he had 12 or so goons at his nat and a few dt-s, and i taught they would fall ez, protected by only a few cannons. but then came the sneaky part: he took all of his army on the cliff where he had 6 cannons and 2 batt-s. he killed all my obs so i couldn't climb his ramp cuz of dt-s. i also lost almost a whole group of zeals to fire from his cliff. i retreated, and went fot the empy main he took, joining 2 reavers and some more obs to my group. but while i was attacking him, 8 carriers and a shuttle of 3 dt-s and 2 probes attacked my exp on the cliff. my obs fell quickly to the blimps and dt-s blocked ramp so my goons were helpless. while my gas probes were slill mining, and most of my buildings still intacked, his probes started setting up defenses (cannons and batteries) and gates. soon he had another exp, and my attack on his other exp failed, due to cramped space and inefficiency of goons vs cliff cannons. even reavers couldn't help: i killed some probes, but lost the shuttle to a carrier and 2 sairs. and if i tried to kill the zeals that blocked the ramp, cramped nat made it hard for me to micro, so i would loose most of my army, while scoring minimal kills (even with the aid of templars). i got to max quickly cuz i expanded a lot, but most of my army were zeals, cuz i had only 2 gas expansions compared to 4 of his. weird enough, he never used carriers offensively again, just used 3 at each exp to defend, while crushing me with 6-7 shuttles (with hallucination) full of zeas/archons/templars/reavers, and arbiters later. the game on lt was simillar, he again made a lot of cannons, and took both islands, while raiding with shuttles and carriers. last game i won by taking 3 of his shuttles with early mind-controll, and then i made a lot of scouts and templars vs carriers that made most of his army. i also took 2 of his blimps with mc. but mind controll rush and mass scouts can only be done if you know he is going to try and pull something like that, it can hardly be used in a standard game. the worst part is, this strat looks so noobish (cannons and carriers ffs!!), i feel a great shame whenever i lose to it. i want some oppinions from you guys, cuz you sound like you know what you are talking about: is this a viable strat, or am i just too much of a noob to come up with a decent counter when i see it?
Well, ill just say that I doubt this is viable at high skill levels as I have not seen anythign like that before. Good players just don't play like that. I suspect It woudl be easy and I'd just overrun him if he treis to expo 2x. I''m really not sure of your skill levels and how the games are, so reps woudl be good.
On January 06 2006 19:09 GrandInquisitor wrote: Right, right, all we need now is someone to bump the PvZ topic and we'll have the whole troika =)
What's the big deal about bumping old threads anyway? People complain when someone posts a new subject that's already been discussed in an old thread, but then people complain when someone actually takes the time to search for an old thread and posts there instead!!
Are you just supposed to never talk about a topic once it's been discussed "enough"? Since this thread is called "pvp strategy" and it's relatively old, are we expected to never again discuss PvP strategy until the end of time because this thread is old and posting a new one would be repeating an already-discussed topic?
I don't know, it just seems a little ridiculous. I'm trying to understand.
You've entirely misunderstood me - I never meant to *criticize*, I simply thought it ironic that 2/3 of BigBall's P guides got bumped so soon after one another.
On January 07 2006 08:34 Knickknack wrote: Well, ill just say that I doubt this is viable at high skill levels as I have not seen anythign like that before. Good players just don't play like that. I suspect It woudl be easy and I'd just overrun him if he treis to expo 2x. I''m really not sure of your skill levels and how the games are, so reps woudl be good.
it was more than a year ago, i formatted twice since then T_T and he was a much higher level player than me, but he plays zerg mostly. i was practicing hard then (no exams), so i'm pretty sure he didn't just outmicro me. from what i know this carrier/massexpand strat is the only pvp strat he knows, and he did quite well in wgt couple of years back when he played random, i dunno...... think his nick was g0nzo[some clan tag]
On January 06 2006 19:09 GrandInquisitor wrote: Right, right, all we need now is someone to bump the PvZ topic and we'll have the whole troika =)
What's the big deal about bumping old threads anyway? People complain when someone posts a new subject that's already been discussed in an old thread, but then people complain when someone actually takes the time to search for an old thread and posts there instead!!
Are you just supposed to never talk about a topic once it's been discussed "enough"? Since this thread is called "pvp strategy" and it's relatively old, are we expected to never again discuss PvP strategy until the end of time because this thread is old and posting a new one would be repeating an already-discussed topic?
I don't know, it just seems a little ridiculous. I'm trying to understand.
You've entirely misunderstood me - I never meant to *criticize*, I simply thought it ironic that 2/3 of BigBall's P guides got bumped so soon after one another.
I think its b ecause you linked them in that top 5 tips thread :D thats most likely why the are bumped
FYI: The OP in this great thread is right now in the Caribbean at the final table of a World Poker Tour event, looking at already a 6 figure payday if not more!
Yea, Ryan Daut aka Bigballs aka Daut44 won a WPT Carribean poker tournament he won a little over $ 1,500,000. I would say any advice he gives on anything is probably good.
EPT
Strategy forum could use you...
