EPT[GG] Red Army Mafia
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Chile4253 Posts
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On July 27 2009 03:44 QuickStriker wrote: Omg, what is this?!?!?! This looks fun!!! Sign me up please!!! ^_^ Sure, I'll just need your credit card and social security number, please. Oh, and a photo of your girlfriend and her home address. | ||
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On July 27 2009 04:50 HeavOnEarth wrote: wow how pathetic. + Show Spoiler + you forgot to ask for the pin! Hey, it's how we roll in the Motherland. If he doesn't provide the pin himself, he's evidently ukranian scum. | ||
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On July 28 2009 06:26 motbob wrote: I'm guessing this won't be necessary:Just send a PM to everyone who signed up to make sure they're still down. In a week make cuts and start the game. On July 26 2009 12:54 Caller wrote: SIGNUPS WILL CLOSE ON TUESDAY, JULY 28th, at 11:00 KST GAME STARTS ON WEDNESDAY, JULY 29th, at Whenever. | ||
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On July 30 2009 02:52 Ace wrote: No, because he could also be RC'd by a legit NKVD. If his defense fails, now the legit NKVD agent is going to be put up to be hanged - o damn we just lost 2 NKVD agents because one guy thought it was smart to pose as a Rebel.  Now we also would have to deal with a situation where if every time someone gets Rolechecked and flips Ukrainian they just say "I'm an NKVD agent, I was just posing as a Rebel". Now what do we do? Wait a day and RC him AGAIN? Sweet, we waste another day and he kills again that night. We've just once again traded 1-1 or even 2-1 for a Rebel. That's not a good idea. In both scenarios the Red Army comes out fucked. You've been drinking too much Spetnaz Vodka. Hm. I'm not sure I agree with you Ace. Let's say on Day 1, an NKVD agent checks a player who comes up as Ukranian. If he says he's an agent (which he will), we give him 2 days to use up his remaining RCs and tell us what he finds, then we hang him. If he comes up as a rebel, we'll know to treat whatever he told us carefully, if he was in fact an agent we'll still have used up all of his RCs and know that info is true for sure. Besides, if there are say 9 rebels and 5 agents, it's much more likely that when a RC comes up as Ukranian, it'll actually be a rebel and not another agent. This does mean that if he turns out to be a rebel, we're giving him 2 more nights. That seems like the biggest cost. What's the upside of this plan? The ukranians can't coordinate from fear of contacting an agent. They can either: a. Operate independently, not sharing info. This screws them up big time because they'll waste a lot of time getting duplicate info. b. Try to contact each other to work efficiently. If they accept an agent into the fold, the agent will learn a bunch of rebel names and they get crushed. This is all assuming the rebels can't tell each other apart from an agent. If they can somehow tell each other apart, then this plan fails :p | ||
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On July 30 2009 04:20 Ace wrote: you do realize that by letting him live for 2 more nights you are just letting their KP sit and instead of "using" them they are indeed using you. Remember he doesn't have to do anything you tell him if he is indeed Ukrainian - so what do you gain from it? Basically you'll want to backlog everyone thats investigated for the sake of "ok, lets hope this guy is Ukrainian and dumb enough to work in the best interest of the town" when he'll just lie about everything and you are right back where you started - no reliable info and you let a Rebel live for 2 days. Come on, lets not assume the Ukrainians are all morons who will just do whatever we say and then get themselves killed. This is not what I suggested. Letting the suspect live for 2 days is clearly one of the downsides of the plan if he indeed turns out to be ukranian, since he will no doubt be working against us for these 2 days. The reason to let him live is to minimize the loss we take in case he turned out to be NKVD- we still get the benefit of all of his RCs and we _know_ they're reliable after his death. Let the vulture drop all its mines before it dies, is the idea. Ok, so all that stuff above is cost. Summary of costs: 1. Identified rebels get to live for 2 more days before their lynching. 2. Might end up lynching an NKVD agent, but at least we get 100% trusted RCs from him. Benefits of NKVD agents disguising as Ukranians: 1. Throws a wrench in rebel organization. They act solo, and waste a lot of turns with each one building up an intel network individually, so we can win by turn limit, OR 2. If they set up a mafia network anyway, we could get a mole in that network, who can give us the names of the rebels. Rebels get lynched, we win. | ||
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At any rate, the worst we can do is have everyone going off and trying their thing- I say, let the elected Field Marshall decide whether all the agents will disguise themselves as rebels, or whether none of them will. | ||
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On July 30 2009 04:42 Ace wrote: If he is an NKVD Agent what makes you think he will live 2 days to use up all his rolechecks? The NKVD agent who came up with the RC contacts the suspect personally, and the Field Marshall as well. Nothing has to be said publicly so the Ukranians won't suspect him. On July 30 2009 04:42 Ace wrote:ETA: Once again let's assume our enemies aren't stupid. How is an NKVD Agent going to get into the Rebel organization? How do you suppose the rebels will form an organization in the first place? They RC people, and if they turn up as rebels, they get added to the rebel network. If the NKVD agent is posing as a rebel, then the rebels either don't organize themselves at all, OR they accept anyone who comes up as a rebel in a RC into their organization- they have no other way of telling if any given person is a rebel or not. | ||
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On July 30 2009 04:47 Shikyo wrote: I'll just say that normally it is a terrible idea to have the elected officer decide for things like that, simply because if he's ukrainian, he'll just do everything to hurt the town. Wait what? The elected officer can be ukranian? O.o I thought his role would change to Field Marshall if a Ukranian was chosen to begin with... | ||
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On July 30 2009 04:51 Shikyo wrote: How will the detected ukrainian be lynched if nothing is said publicly? And are you really telling everything to the field marshall? And if it was established that every DT would appear as an ukrainian, do you really think they'd contact everyone they RC as ukrainians? Okay, first things first. All this time, I've assumed the field marshall is a trusted- the only trusted- member of the town, so correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption. Step by step: 1. NKVD agent RCs someone, comes up as Ukranian. 2. NKVD contacts Field Marshall he got a ukranian in a RC. 3. NKVD contacts suspect, tells him he will get lynched in 2 days' time. If he's a patriotic NKVD agent, he should use up his remaining RCs before he dies. 4. 2 days pass. 5. NKVD agent reveals his findings, Field Marshall confirms two days have passed since the findings. 6. With the info revealed, the town lynches the suspect. Perhaps it's too complicated, but it seems to work in theory. IF the field marshall is a trusted town member. | ||
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On July 30 2009 04:53 Falcynn wrote: He shows up as field marshall if he's checked, but he retains whatever role he started off with originally. Ok, I was wrong in one of my basic assumptions. Never mind anything I've said, Ace is right, NKVD agents should not disguise themselves as rebels -_- | ||
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On July 30 2009 05:07 Ace wrote: Even If the Field Marshal is a confirmed innocent you still haven't answered this REALLY basic question: how do you sort through the liars? I already answered this, in detail. You don't sort through the liars. You end up lynching whoever comes up as a rebel in a RC. This is one of the problems of the plan, I've stated it quite clearly. The plan also has benefits, which I've listed as well. At any rate, I for one already admitted that it's not a good plan :p | ||
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On July 30 2009 05:16 Shikyo wrote: How do you lynch them? Do you think the DT just publicly announces that he's the DT? And why should the town believe him? My assumption was that the NKVD agent contacts a trustworthy Field Marshal, so the Field Marshall can inform the Town. If this info was NOT given to the Field Marshal by an NKVD agent, then it was given by a rebel- no other Townie would want to impersonate an NKVD agent like that. So if a rebel was impersonating an NKVD agent so a conscript could get lynched, then that same rebel exposes himself and gets lynched the next day. Not a good trade for the rebel, so he wouldn't do it, so all this hypothetical debate is pointless. | ||
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On July 30 2009 05:53 Ace wrote: come on L, let's be serious here. In fact assume I'm a Ukrainian Rebel and you're an NKVD agent. do you REALLY think you'd ever successfully convince me you really are a Rebel and that you could get me to give up information about what I know and then get me lynched? The plan only works assuming our enemies are completely fucking stupid. I'm not playing the game based on that because it's an epic fail. Watch the NKVD agents all try it and all die. I guarantee it if the Rebels are even half competent. Pretty much. The only upside I'm seeing right now to having NKVD pose as Ukrainians, is that if a Ukrainian RCs an agent he will contact him and kill him after finding out he was a fake, giving the agent time to get out the word that a certain rebel contacted him and getting a rebel for an agent trade (rather than the ukrainian getting conscript as the answer to his RC, and killing the agent anyway). Not worth screwing over the efficacy of our agents, imo. Better to be certain when they get a rebel hit in their RCs. On a completely unrelated issue- can a 'dead' player still post after he got killed, such as saying "oh guys, before I died I got a PM from player X, it said such and such"? | ||
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On July 30 2009 06:19 So no fek wrote: There's certainly risks in the NKVD disguising themselves as rebels, however, I think that's the entire point of their role and the rebels not knowing each other. To throw a wrench into things. The ability to disguise yourself as a townie/another blue is nearly worthless. And Ace just explained why the ability to disguise yourself as a rebel is also worthless, because a rebel will find out what you really are through the kill list. Ok, to be fair, it's not completely worthless. You can get a rebel who RC'ed you to tell on himself and MAYBE he gets killed- if you can prove he's not another NKVD, which you can't. On the other hand, you throw a wrench on the work of your fellow NKVD agents who are trying to find rebels, because anyone who comes up as rebel will claim to be NKVD. Is this tradeoff worthwhile? I'm thinking no. | ||
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Beware, Town, everyone's pulling in different directions -_- | ||
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On July 30 2009 07:10 coltrane wrote: easy, you ask for any information of both, then you lynch one and mafia kills the other, or you lynch both. is a 1:1 trade anyway, and it is good. So your argument is: 1. All NKVD disguise as blue rebels 2. NKVD never PM someone they RC as rebel 3. When a rebel PMs an NKVD asking if he is rebel too, the NKVD can be sure whoever PMed him is rebel 4. NKVD comes clean. He and Rebel get lynched both (accused first, accuser later- spare accuser if accused turns out to be rebel). 5. We kill one rebel and probably lose an agent, plus if agent dies we get confirmed townies that the agent points out before his death. On the downside, a RC from an NKVD that comes up as blue is useless and NKVD is only good for confirming townies and being a landmine for rebels who are RCing. It... actually makes some sense. Hm. | ||
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The prevailing argument on the other side is, you don't prove it. When an argument breaks out with two people claiming they're NKVD and the other guy is a rebel, you lynch 'em both (or if the first guy you lynch ends up being a rebel, you let the other live). You're trading an agent for a rebel, while if the rebel had RC'ed the agent and gotten anything other than a mafia, then the agent would get killed, no questions asked. | ||
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