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Poll: Should IdrA still compete in amateur tournaments?
(Vote): Yes! He's not Korean and is therefore still a foreigner, technically...
(Vote): No! He receives professional training and has a massive advantage over the competition!
I was randomly considering this, so I thought I'd make a thread about it to see how other people felt.
For the sake of this argument, I'm going to make the distinction that foreign SC is "amateur" and that Korean SC is "professional". Of course Korean SC can be broken down and further sub-divided (i.e. B-Team, Korean amateur, etc.) but in the point that I'd like to put forward here, lumping the entire scene into the professional sphere will suffice.
That being said, I was curious as to the opinions of the community regarding IdrA's participation in foreigner tournaments. This is in no way meant to be disrespectful, but is it really appropriate for him to be participating in amateur tournaments since he has been receiving professional training? Aren't they (usually) closed to other Korean b-team members? Do opponents: a) welcome the opportunity to play someone of IdrA's caliber or b) think it's unfair, and that foreign tournaments should remain exclusive to "true foreign" players - as in, ones that aren't actively participating in the professional SC scene?
Really, it's a testament to his increasing skill level, because he's going to be (or perhaps already is) capable of stomping everyone in the amateur scene... and the whole point of the amateur scene, as I see it, is to mimic the professional scene, because it's predominently closed to foreign, non-Korean participation... so, shouldn't the amateur scene be closed to professional participation?
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He should until he joins the A team
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I can see this either way, but fortunately it probably won't matter a whole lot in the future since sc2 will be out and everything will be different.
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lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant
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I'm not sure what you could mean by this as other non-Koreans who have participated in the Korean professional Starcraft leagues have traditionally participated in their national tournaments (WCG for instance). Assem participated in WCG while he was on Hexatron, for instance. And PJ / LX / Draco all had professional experience in Korea while also continuing in the foreign scene.
Lastgosu from USA WCG also had a professional license from before.
I don't see any reason to for there to be an arbitrary distinction now against Idra.
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I never knew foreign tournments didn't allow korean pros to play
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On June 27 2009 15:19 Whiplash wrote:
He should until he joins the A team
this is pretty fair imo
edit: i'm not saying he'll do that anytime soon, or even at all, but it would be a fair way to decide
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Yes if he continues to BM. Idra is comedy gold.
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United States12607 Posts
I'd vote yes, but mostly because I like watching IdrA play. I think he deserves a slot in foreign tournaments as long as the tournament organizers are willing to have him - which will be for a while yet, considering he's a relatively attention-getting player.
The fact that this topic even exists is an indication that IdrA is really pulling away from the foreign scene - look at his recent results. He's destroyed pretty much every foreigner tourney he's played in lately...
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On June 27 2009 15:20 Failsafe wrote:
I'm not sure what you could mean by this as other non-Koreans who have participated in the Korean professional Starcraft leagues have traditionally participated in their national tournaments (WCG for instance). Assem participated in WCG while he was on Hexatron, for instance. And PJ / LX / Draco all had professional experience in Korea while also continuing in the foreign scene.
Lastgosu from USA WCG also had a professional license from before.
I don't see any reason to for there to be an arbitrary distinction now against Idra.
WCG is understandable, because the Korean pros play in that too... This whole thought process started in my head when I was looking at a tournament more along the lines of ESL or Valor. (I realize Tossgirl played Valor, but she was more of a, "omg a pro participant!" than an actual precedent to having a ton of Korean pros in these tournaments.)
The thing with WCG is, a Korean pro is 99.9% going to win these days, and I envisage a similar situation eventually coming around in foreign tournaments, when IdrA is too good for any amateur player to beat.
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On June 27 2009 15:19 Whiplash wrote:
He should until he joins the A team
Fair argument. That being said, would you think it was fair for ANY Korean B-teamer to join?
I just foresee a point in the future where IdrA, even if he's still on the B-team, is going to wreck everyone... and when that happens, what's the point of having foreign tournaments anymore?
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I've been wondering the same thing myself. I think he should definitely be allowed to continue participating until he chooses otherwise. Once the skill gap gets too big, it would be quite unfair but when that time comes, I think Idra will recognize it and choose to avoid participating in foreigner tournaments.
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I don't think a pro should be allowed to play in an amateur's tournament.
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On June 27 2009 15:21 fearus wrote:
I never knew foreign tournments didn't allow korean pros to play
Maybe they're not specifically barred, but you don't see too many participating, do you? Maybe it's the language barrier, maybe it's just way too under their radar, but they don't play... the argument is, if a whole slough of Korean B-teamers found out they could make some extra cash smashing foreigners in their spare time and started signing up en masse, what would the point be for the foreign community?
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On June 27 2009 15:19 Whiplash wrote:
He should until he joins the A team
Perfect.
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I disagree completely with that.
He should be able to compete in them even after he joins the A team.
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Interesting topic.
I think he should be allowed to enter foreign tournaments, as they're prolly the only way he'll win money in tournaments. Lets face it, most don't believe he'll make it into an A-team squad.. and lord knows he won't be winning a starleague etc..
He's still technically a foreigner, so that should make him eligible. I don't really consider him that much different from any other foreigner, except the dedication that he's shown. Just because he's been in Korea, doesn't make him any different from us - he's just been under the extreme training regiment as that of the Koreans, like 12-14 hours a day of nothing but gaming. Everyone could reach the same level if they had the dedication..
Of course a lot of ppl have to worry about work/school/etc instead of being able to mass-game like that all the time.. Which might explain the gap in skill.
But honestly.. who all has he stomped over?
I know he recently beat Mondi..
Didn't F91 stomp him though?
Best way to end the debate, put him in a showmatch w/ all the top foreigners of today.
Best of 3 against
white-ra
ret
draco
incontrol
arew
etc.. and perhaps some chinese (although they're almost considered in a league of their own)
Pj / Legend
gL
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United States12607 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:27 arsonist wrote:
I just foresee a point in the future where IdrA, even if he's still on the B-team, is going to wreck everyone... and when that happens, what's the point of having foreign tournaments anymore?
We're already at that point. Here IdrA's results in each of the foreigner tournament series he's played recently (since losing to F91 in Liquibition):
SC2GG Starleague:
IdrA 2>0 Oystein
IdrA 3>1 Xiaozi
(now in finals, will play Yayba (games are done, but cast is tomorrow and results are still unknown))
Ansadi Starleague: (can't find a bracket, know he won two Bo3s to make the semis)
IdrA 2>? ???
IdrA 2>? ???
IdrA 2<4 PJ (IdrA loses in the semis)
Valor:
IdrA 2>1 MaNa
IdrA 2>0 Tarson
(now in Ro8, will play Castro)
ESL Major Series:
IdrA 3>0 Mondragon
(now in semis, will play winner of Arew/JF)
ESWC Asian Masters Cheonan:
IdrA 1<2 White-Ra
IdrA 2>1 Super
IdrA 2>0 Tossgirl
IdrA 3>0 White-Ra (IdrA wins ESWC Asian Masters)
Zotac Cup 2:
IdrA 2>0 MaNa
IdrA 2>1 Yoon
IdrA 3>1 DIMAGA (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 2)
Zotac Cup 8:
IdrA 2>0 Fenix
IdrA 2>0 ASL-Radio (?)
IdrA 3>0 ret (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 8)
Zotac Cup 9:
IdrA 2>1 Yayba
IdrA 2>0 Shudo (?)
IdrA 3>0 JF (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 9 - yes IdrA has won every Zotac Cup he's played thus far, barring an unknown smurf + Bo1 loss I've missed)
Am I missing any series? Let me know. Also, an ASL bracket would be useful for identifying IdrA's Ro16 and Ro8 opponents and results there.
Add it all up: over this period IdrA has lost two tournament series - one to PJ in ASL and one to White-Ra at ESWC (he went on to 3-0 White-Ra in the finals, putting him at 4>2 White-Ra overall at ESWC). He lost only 12 games over all of these series (not counting the two mystery ASL matches - 19 matches total, and 55 games). That's a record of 43-12 (78%).
Basically IdrA is destroying the foreigner scene right now. The games I've seen him lose (PJ series aside) have been due to really dumb, obvious mistakes, while the games I've seen him win have been solid victories.
Edit: lol Sosha, you have your "Bo3 showmatch" wish granted - IdrA whipped everyone but PJ, and I'd love to see them play again in a LAN/lagless environment just for kicks.
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On June 27 2009 15:54 Sosha wrote:
Interesting topic.
I think he should be allowed to enter foreign tournaments, as they're prolly the only way he'll win money in tournaments. Lets face it, most don't believe he'll make it into an A-team squad.. and lord knows he won't be winning a starleague etc..
He's still technically a foreigner, so that should make him eligible. I don't really consider him that much different from any other foreigner, except the dedication that he's shown. Just because he's been in Korea, doesn't make him any different from us - he's just been under the extreme training regiment as that of the Koreans, like 12-14 hours a day of nothing but gaming. Everyone could reach the same level if they had the dedication..
Of course a lot of ppl have to worry about work/school/etc instead of being able to mass-game like that all the time.. Which might explain the gap in skill.
But honestly.. who all has he stomped over?
I know he recently beat Mondi..
Didn't F91 stomp him though?
Best way to end the debate, put him in a showmatch w/ all the top foreigners of today.
Best of 3 against
white-ra
ret
draco
incontrol
arew
etc.. and perhaps some chinese (although they're almost considered in a league of their own)
Pj / Legend
gL
that list gave me cerebral lawsly
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i wish i could think of a way in which idra should be allowed to compete in foreigner tournaments... but unless these tournaments allow korean b-teamers to compete i don't think it is fair. I thought these tournaments were for the scene outside of korea... not for the "hey as long as you aren't korean its cool".
i guess let him compete until he gets a-team seems ok.
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EPT
