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First things first i would like you to know that PvP is my worst MU by far so in saying that I will continue.
Now playing on this map is incredibly odd to me with the high amount of cheese options available. I have currently played 5 games at C, C- level on ICCup and gone 0-5 on this map.
4/5 games showed some sort of cheese. While the last one I just got outplayed by reavers.
In base dual gate.
I have been hit by this twice now, and it pisses me off because he will get his gates up and running no matter what i do. It starts with a simple manner pylon, now with him running a probe to my base early I have a chance to stop this. The hard part is having that game sense of cheese. I unfortunatly do not have that. Though after this map I will.
Now there are two possiblities to me after this cheese. The first is to play normal. but I lose out on 1-2 mining patches depending on which position I am. So now early in the game he has an advantage. Both psycological and economical. His zealot will be either a few seconds slower than mine or right at the same.
The second option would be to kill his pylon warping in. But with doing that i'm losing the economical standpoint I would have if he couldn't get there in the first place.
So what do I do I wish to learn this map w/o cheesing to win because come long run it won't do me any good.
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So, does he manner pylon, then using that pylon build 2 gates?
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On September 25 2007 11:10 Purind wrote:
So, does he manner pylon, then using that pylon build 2 gates?
For reference, Bisu did what you described on his B.net attack. I guess it's all the rage now?
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 25 2007 11:10 Purind wrote:
So, does he manner pylon, then using that pylon build 2 gates?
probably identical to what Bisu did to Pokju in Proleague. manner pylon -> gates behind mineral line.
I personally don't know any surefire way to prevent this. Iirc, the top position has at least 2 positions that are manner-able, maybe even three. I think the bottom has multiple as well, which means you can't ensure a 100% block even if you build your 1st pylon in an anti-manner position.
In fact even if you could prevent the first pylon from going up, I think it'd be so early in the game that a pure abuser of the ladder could leave within the 2 minute limit.
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On September 25 2007 11:17 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2007 11:10 Purind wrote:
So, does he manner pylon, then using that pylon build 2 gates? probably identical to what Bisu did to Pokju in Proleague. manner pylon -> gates behind mineral line. I personally don't know any surefire way to prevent this. Iirc, the top position has at least 2 positions that are manner-able, maybe even three. I think the bottom has multiple as well, which means you can't ensure a 100% block even if you build your 1st pylon in an anti-manner position. In fact even if you could prevent the first pylon from going up, I think it'd be so early in the game that a pure abuser of the ladder could leave within the 2 minute limit.
I think the safest bet to prevent the Pylon from getting up is to just leave a Probe on the spot where the Pylon should be placed. I remember Reach doing it vs Kingdom in Pringles MSL a while back to prevent Kingdom from manner Pyloning him.
But honestly, I hate that sort of strategy; makes me want to tear my hair out. Seriously 
Isn't this strategy called Doom Gating or something?
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
on the top position we see 2 spots to manner pylon. Same for the bottom position.
The differences are that on the top, the primary spot blocks off 2 mineral patches, while the bottom position only blocks 1. On the other hand, the secondary manner pylon spot is easier to manner on the bottom position than the top.
This strategy is obviously the strongest when done against the top position since the 2 gateways behind the manner pylon will block the probes from getting to those 2 patches, and when even 1 zealot is out, the probes that go in between the 2 gateways to go mine will get hit automatically. It disrupts mining a whole hell of a lot more than at the bottom position.
At the top position, putting up an antimanner pylon at the primary spot should block this strat 99% of the time, since the secondary manner position isn't as easy to get a pylon up, due to the way the probes mine over there.
At the bottom position, the mining disruption effect is much smaller b/c (1) only 1 patch blocked, and (2) the mining route to the back of the patches aren't quite as severely disrupted by the gateways. Buttt, the secondary manner pylon position seems to be more easily mannerable than at the top position.
(okay, so I don't really offer a solution, only some analysis on the various spots)
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After a bit of testing the only places to really block the manner pylon on the bottom part are shown in the image. Also on a side note the gateway placed is the only place to put the gateway.
Blue=Pylon
Red=Gateway
Note Both pylon placements block only one side so the other section of the mineral is still visible.
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Maybe you could cut probes and place a pylon by where he would build a gateway. Or just use a probe to harass and slow the first gate, that has to be tough though.
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is awesome32282 Posts
Pylon your own mineral line. Micro chase his probe to hell if he did pylon you. He will probably arp buildings in even if you chase him, but it will take him more time. Leaving an idle probe after he made a pylon is a choice too.
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is awesome32282 Posts
By the way. Doing this is a lot of commitment for the other P, so you can always go nuts and after killing the first pylon with your probes (like PoKJu did) you can send some probes to kill the second warping in. By this time the 2 minutes would have passed i think and hes basically dead and wont be able to stop 2 gates preassure.
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is awesome32282 Posts
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That was fucking awesome.
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anti-manner the center spot then if u see an early probe stop one of yours from mining and sit it at the second manner location. when your pylon finishes, make a gateway that acts as an anti-manner and just play normally from there.
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Yeah people are using Bisu's strat vs Pokju, also the quickest game in sc pro history
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Ya and near fucking impossible to beat >_<
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On September 25 2007 15:38 vstar wrote:
Yeah people are using Bisu's strat vs Pokju, also the quickest game in sc pro history
quicker then kingdom leaving 5 seconds after his zeal got trapped?
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Calgary26004 Posts
Haha I just went to quote someone and the quote was empy. I hit back and his comment is gone. Fucking ninja mods.
Anyways, this is actually a big problem, because they build the Pylon before you do with normal timing. So if you plan to anti-manner Pylon yourself with normal timing he will have already built the Pylon. If you cut Probes to build yours first, you now have awkward Gateways and you're behind if he plays normal.
The advantage you have is Probes to defend and a superior economy, so play off those strengths. I would put my first Pylon in a normal place. If his Probe is in your main before you have a Pylon, you can be pretty damn sure he's going for this build. I would tell a Probe to stand right where he wants to build it, and tell a separate Probe to attack his Probe. Keep in mind that time is your friend - the longer his manner Pylon is delayed, the more time you'll have your Gateway up before his is up - and the more likely he'll make the Pylon at his main. I wouldn't worry about him manner Pyloning you at the secondary spot - it's harder to do and less effective. If he gets the manner Pylon up, I think you have two choices:
1. Forge
You could go Forge -> Cannon -> expand. Forges finish very quickly and your Cannon should easily finish against his first Zealot. At this point I would think you would be 100% safe, keeping in mind that he's cut Probes this whole time, so as long as you haven't been cutting Probes, you'll end up ahead (even though you'll lose a Probe or three against his Zealot). I think I would respond in this way. You could go Cannon his ramp, but you're already ahead so I would just press the advantage with an expansion.
You can also pull a cute trick where you can Cannon below their backdoor ramp and the Cannon can hit one or two Probes if you give it vision of the main. Put a Pylon up there and even add another Cannon on the high ground.
2. Cut Probes -> 2 Gate
I think this is a weak build for many reasons. Even though you have more Probes, the Manner Pylon makes things pretty even. And while you will kill his Zealots, he will kill your Probes. Then all he needs to do is live against your counter attack and you're boned. I would maybe do this if his first Pylon was later, but I don't see much of an advantage over Forge.
I obviously don't PvP on Peaks, so take this all with a grain of salt. Usually when I post in the strat forum, I'm pretty confident that I'm right, but this time I have no idea. This is more of a "this is what I think is good, let's get a discussion going" type post.
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On September 26 2007 04:08 CowGoMoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2007 15:38 vstar wrote:
Yeah people are using Bisu's strat vs Pokju, also the quickest game in sc pro history quicker then kingdom leaving 5 seconds after his zeal got trapped?
Or July's 4pool against Casy on Requiem. ;]
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Anyone have the replay on Bisu vs PokJu[S.G].
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EPT![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/staff/Carnac/pringles2mslstart/new_peaks.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2165/rgdk1.png)
