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Chill, numbers please...
facts we now:
you got manner-pyloned - right! some minus from you
he lost 100 on pylon - 100 minus for him
he cut probe production - minus for him
he sent his 5th probe - lots of minus for him
as soon as you see he builds his X (being it pylon or gate) you can cancel you probe in nexus and build yours! so you can ALWAYS be equal on zealots with him + have a better eco!
if he hits with his zeals to probes, he takes shots from your zeals.
you win zeal fight
you win the game
if sb does this to you and you do not know about htis=>you may easily lose (frustration, stress). but, fuck, not the second time
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
he doesnt lose anything on his pylon(if u're gonna kill the pylon u're not gonna be ahead in econ) but other than that I agree 100%.
also;
the advantage he has is that he's close to your mineral line so he can harrass and disturb your econ
the disadvantage he has is that if he loses a fight he'll lose his gates which (unless he did a lot of damage prior) means he'll lose the game. while if he wins a fight you can use your probes to defend/delay. he also cant pick his battles the same way you can, if he backs away you attack his pylon, if you back away he attacks your probes in which case you just move them and lose a tiny bit of mining.
I really dont think this is a matter of strategy but a matter of execution, if he can outmicro and outplay you with his zealots he'll win, if he cant you should win.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I am curious as how you derive how much minus those things are. Being manner pyloned BLOWS. You lose 2 patches, and it's almost as if you lost two workers. The increase of mining efficiency of those two workers on other patches is not really worth much.
If I were Pokju, though, I would have pulled my probes and gone all-in on that second pylon. Who cares about how much your eco hurts as long as you can stop any zealots from coming out?
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is awesome32282 Posts
I agree with GI like I said in my earlier post. You can kill the second pylon and its almost GG. If he rebuilds it, his zealots are coming out later. Then you can just run him over.
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Calgary26004 Posts
araav:
The manner Pylon is actually a huge deal, because of the mineral formation of Peaks, Probes have to go all the way around to get to that back mineral - which is even worsened if he's placed Gateways back there.
I'll go over my point one more time:
At the beginning of the game, because you're manner Pyloned and he's cut Probes since 9 (and not making any more), income has no affect on the game. You both will always have 200 minerals by the time you need to make 2 more Zealots. So the only thing to worry about is building speed.
He Pylons you first, so he's already faster, but you have more minerals. Once you're manner Pyloned, you lose all mineral advantage you had, so he gets his Gateways faster than you. His first Zealots come out faster and start hurting Probes. One Zealot trying to defend one Zealot is impossible, so you lose several Probes. It's also worth mentioning that you probably killed his manner Pylon by this time, but he rebuilt another powering Pylon. So you've freed your trapped Probes. But every Zealot he makes is killing at least a Probe, and the first two especially killed 2-4 each. So you're down 5-6 Probes (from ~10) from his first two Zealots, but you have two Zealots and he doesn't. What are you going to do now? 4 Probes isn't enough to continue 2 Gate Zealot production, so do you cut Zealots to make Probes (which will inevitably be lost anyways) or do you just keep making slower Zealots? Both will lose to his continuous Zealot production.
I don't know how you're arguing against this. There's a VOD posted here showing both players doing exactly what you said, and Bisu ends up with several more Zealots. How do you explain that? How should the defending Protoss play differently?
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Calgary26004 Posts
What? How do ignore you? I think if you pull Probes he'll cut a Zealot to rebuild another Pylon while targetting Probes.
I think the best counter is still Pylon Forge Cannon Nexus Pylon.
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is awesome32282 Posts
Nono. When PokJu killed the first pylon, he started targetting only after Bisu commited by building 2 gates. You can kill it before the first zealots are produced AND im sure you can just kill the second one before too. then he just has 2 unpowered gates in your base.
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Calgary26004 Posts
So you're saying target the manner Pylon immediately, and then try to kill the second one before a single Zealot comes out?
Seems like it would work, but how many Probes would you use? All? You'd not have enough minerals to even build your first Gateway if you did this. I don't even think you'd come out ahead, haha.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On September 29 2007 01:07 Chill wrote: One Zealot trying to defend one Zealot is impossible, so you lose several Probes.
But every Zealot he makes is killing at least a Probe, and the first two especially killed 2-4 each.
I don't know how you're arguing against this. There's a VOD posted here showing both players doing exactly what you said, and Bisu ends up with several more Zealots. How do you explain that? How should the defending Protoss play differently? it's not impossible to defend from zealots without losing (that many) probes. also if he suicides his zealots to kill probes he'll lose his pylon/gateways then you can just counter attack.
as for pokju vs bisu, pokju let himself get re-manner pyloned then panic'd and tried to all-out kill bisus units/buildings with all his probes and 1 zealot. also pokju didnt cut probes and match bisus buildings, his second gateway was a lot later. not to mention bisu is a far superior player who would outplay pokju under any circumstances.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 29 2007 01:38 Chill wrote:
So you're saying target the manner Pylon immediately, and then try to kill the second one before a single Zealot comes out?
Seems like it would work, but how many Probes would you use? All? You'd not have enough minerals to even build your first Gateway if you did this. I don't even think you'd come out ahead, haha.
Watch the VOD, Chill.
2:42: Bisu makes the manner pylon
2:45: Pokju makes his pylon (has 8 probes, 7 mining and one trapped)
Around 3:01: Bisu's pylon finishes
3:04: Pokju's pylon finishes (has 9 probes, 8 mining on 7 patches, one trapped)
3:13: Bisu makes his first gate (has 8 probes mining, one probe in Pokju's base, and is not building another probe - aka 9 gate)
Around 3:17: Pokju makes his first gate (has 9 probes, 8 mining 7 patches, one trapped, and is building his tenth - 10 gate)
3:20 - 3:24: As his tenth probe finishes, Pokju begins attacking the manner pylon with 2 more probes in addition to the one already trapped (now has 10 probes, 7 mining, one trapped, two attacking pylon)
3:24: Bisu makes his second gate
Around 3:39: Pokju's eleventh probe finishes and begins mining. He builds another
3:37: Bisu makes his second powering pylon
3:49 (I think?): Pokju makes his second gate. At the same time Bisu's first gate starts to finish warping in, but the manner pylon is destroyed first. At this point Pokju now has twelve probes mining.
3:54: Pokju's first gate starts to finish. Presumably a zealot is begun, since Pokju's 13th probe is delayed.
3:56: Bisu's second (and now only) pylon begins to finish.
4:01: Bisu's second gate begins to finish
4:09: The camera cuts to Bisu's base, showing just 9 probes, with a tenth being built.
4:15: Bisu manner pylons again. Pokju puts two probes on it to attack it
4:25: Bisu's first zealot comes out
Between 4:25 and 4:28: Pokju's first zealot comes out too
4:30: Bisu's second zealot comes out
4:50: Bisu's third zealot comes out. Pokju is long dead at this point because of his retarded all-in probe/zeal strategy, and because he got his zealot trapped between the probes and the gateways. 4:52: Pokju's zealot dies.
4:53: Camera shows Pokju's second zeal just chilling by his second warping pylon for no reason. At this point Pokju has maybe 4 probes mining, one attacking pylon, and another six trying to attack but mostly getting killed. One of them dies right here. Two more die at 5:00
5:03: Bisu's fourth zealot comes out.
Around 5:20: Pokju's second zeal dies and his third warps in. He has one probe. Bisu has 4 zealots. Pokju's hero zealot kills two of Bisu's zealots, and Pokju GG's right after.
7:18: Pokju grimaces, like, GOD WHAT THE FUCK SUCH A LAMER NOOB
Pokju could have definitely killed that second pylon of Bisu's and had enough to make one zealot.
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is awesome32282 Posts
On September 29 2007 01:38 Chill wrote:
So you're saying target the manner Pylon immediately, and then try to kill the second one before a single Zealot comes out?
Seems like it would work, but how many Probes would you use? All? You'd not have enough minerals to even build your first Gateway if you did this. I don't even think you'd come out ahead, haha.
PoKJu killed the first pylon by targetting only with one probe (the trapped one) and maybe one or two more later on, don't know i didnt check. 5 probes would be enough to kill the second one. Or all of them, doesnt matter. After you kill the second pylon the other toss cant afford rebuilding it forever and you can kill it with zealots.
His only chance after that is to cannon up... with 9 probes (10 maybe?)
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EPT
