First things first i would like you to know that PvP is my worst MU by far so in saying that I will continue.
Now playing on this map is incredibly odd to me with the high amount of cheese options available. I have currently played 5 games at C, C- level on ICCup and gone 0-5 on this map.
4/5 games showed some sort of cheese. While the last one I just got outplayed by reavers.
In base dual gate. I have been hit by this twice now, and it pisses me off because he will get his gates up and running no matter what i do. It starts with a simple manner pylon, now with him running a probe to my base early I have a chance to stop this. The hard part is having that game sense of cheese. I unfortunatly do not have that. Though after this map I will.
Now there are two possiblities to me after this cheese. The first is to play normal. but I lose out on 1-2 mining patches depending on which position I am. So now early in the game he has an advantage. Both psycological and economical. His zealot will be either a few seconds slower than mine or right at the same.
The second option would be to kill his pylon warping in. But with doing that i'm losing the economical standpoint I would have if he couldn't get there in the first place.
So what do I do I wish to learn this map w/o cheesing to win because come long run it won't do me any good.
On September 25 2007 11:10 Purind wrote: So, does he manner pylon, then using that pylon build 2 gates?
probably identical to what Bisu did to Pokju in Proleague. manner pylon -> gates behind mineral line.
I personally don't know any surefire way to prevent this. Iirc, the top position has at least 2 positions that are manner-able, maybe even three. I think the bottom has multiple as well, which means you can't ensure a 100% block even if you build your 1st pylon in an anti-manner position.
In fact even if you could prevent the first pylon from going up, I think it'd be so early in the game that a pure abuser of the ladder could leave within the 2 minute limit.
On September 25 2007 11:10 Purind wrote: So, does he manner pylon, then using that pylon build 2 gates?
probably identical to what Bisu did to Pokju in Proleague. manner pylon -> gates behind mineral line.
I personally don't know any surefire way to prevent this. Iirc, the top position has at least 2 positions that are manner-able, maybe even three. I think the bottom has multiple as well, which means you can't ensure a 100% block even if you build your 1st pylon in an anti-manner position.
In fact even if you could prevent the first pylon from going up, I think it'd be so early in the game that a pure abuser of the ladder could leave within the 2 minute limit.
I think the safest bet to prevent the Pylon from getting up is to just leave a Probe on the spot where the Pylon should be placed. I remember Reach doing it vs Kingdom in Pringles MSL a while back to prevent Kingdom from manner Pyloning him.
But honestly, I hate that sort of strategy; makes me want to tear my hair out. Seriously
Isn't this strategy called Doom Gating or something?
on the top position we see 2 spots to manner pylon. Same for the bottom position.
The differences are that on the top, the primary spot blocks off 2 mineral patches, while the bottom position only blocks 1. On the other hand, the secondary manner pylon spot is easier to manner on the bottom position than the top.
This strategy is obviously the strongest when done against the top position since the 2 gateways behind the manner pylon will block the probes from getting to those 2 patches, and when even 1 zealot is out, the probes that go in between the 2 gateways to go mine will get hit automatically. It disrupts mining a whole hell of a lot more than at the bottom position.
At the top position, putting up an antimanner pylon at the primary spot should block this strat 99% of the time, since the secondary manner position isn't as easy to get a pylon up, due to the way the probes mine over there.
At the bottom position, the mining disruption effect is much smaller b/c (1) only 1 patch blocked, and (2) the mining route to the back of the patches aren't quite as severely disrupted by the gateways. Buttt, the secondary manner pylon position seems to be more easily mannerable than at the top position.
(okay, so I don't really offer a solution, only some analysis on the various spots)
After a bit of testing the only places to really block the manner pylon on the bottom part are shown in the image. Also on a side note the gateway placed is the only place to put the gateway.
Blue=Pylon Red=Gateway
Note Both pylon placements block only one side so the other section of the mineral is still visible.
Maybe you could cut probes and place a pylon by where he would build a gateway. Or just use a probe to harass and slow the first gate, that has to be tough though.
Pylon your own mineral line. Micro chase his probe to hell if he did pylon you. He will probably arp buildings in even if you chase him, but it will take him more time. Leaving an idle probe after he made a pylon is a choice too.
By the way. Doing this is a lot of commitment for the other P, so you can always go nuts and after killing the first pylon with your probes (like PoKJu did) you can send some probes to kill the second warping in. By this time the 2 minutes would have passed i think and hes basically dead and wont be able to stop 2 gates preassure.
anti-manner the center spot then if u see an early probe stop one of yours from mining and sit it at the second manner location. when your pylon finishes, make a gateway that acts as an anti-manner and just play normally from there.
Haha I just went to quote someone and the quote was empy. I hit back and his comment is gone. Fucking ninja mods.
Anyways, this is actually a big problem, because they build the Pylon before you do with normal timing. So if you plan to anti-manner Pylon yourself with normal timing he will have already built the Pylon. If you cut Probes to build yours first, you now have awkward Gateways and you're behind if he plays normal.
The advantage you have is Probes to defend and a superior economy, so play off those strengths. I would put my first Pylon in a normal place. If his Probe is in your main before you have a Pylon, you can be pretty damn sure he's going for this build. I would tell a Probe to stand right where he wants to build it, and tell a separate Probe to attack his Probe. Keep in mind that time is your friend - the longer his manner Pylon is delayed, the more time you'll have your Gateway up before his is up - and the more likely he'll make the Pylon at his main. I wouldn't worry about him manner Pyloning you at the secondary spot - it's harder to do and less effective. If he gets the manner Pylon up, I think you have two choices:
1. Forge You could go Forge -> Cannon -> expand. Forges finish very quickly and your Cannon should easily finish against his first Zealot. At this point I would think you would be 100% safe, keeping in mind that he's cut Probes this whole time, so as long as you haven't been cutting Probes, you'll end up ahead (even though you'll lose a Probe or three against his Zealot). I think I would respond in this way. You could go Cannon his ramp, but you're already ahead so I would just press the advantage with an expansion. You can also pull a cute trick where you can Cannon below their backdoor ramp and the Cannon can hit one or two Probes if you give it vision of the main. Put a Pylon up there and even add another Cannon on the high ground.
2. Cut Probes -> 2 Gate I think this is a weak build for many reasons. Even though you have more Probes, the Manner Pylon makes things pretty even. And while you will kill his Zealots, he will kill your Probes. Then all he needs to do is live against your counter attack and you're boned. I would maybe do this if his first Pylon was later, but I don't see much of an advantage over Forge.
I obviously don't PvP on Peaks, so take this all with a grain of salt. Usually when I post in the strat forum, I'm pretty confident that I'm right, but this time I have no idea. This is more of a "this is what I think is good, let's get a discussion going" type post.
Also you can place some early pylons in your mineral line in such a way to not allow opponent to manner pylon you. Its not that difficult Nal_rA does it a lot.
In response to that game
All he needed to do was pull 3-4 probes and put them on pylons while making his gates faster .
On September 26 2007 06:37 CharlieMurphy wrote: In response to that game
All he needed to do was pull 3-4 probes and put them on pylons while making his gates faster .
I really disagree. He's behind already because of the manner Pylon, and you want him to cut Probes AND use one - two extra Probes to attack the Pylon? Then the offensive Protoss is just going to trade Zealots for Probes, putting him even farther behind.
If you attack with 4-5 probes on every new pylon the gates won't produce any zealots and it will be about even. I don't understand why PokJu didn't attack anything... That's just giving the game away.
What if... once you see his early manner pylon, you plunk down a forge, go cannon cannon expo cannon? Would that stop it? I'm thinking that once you kill his gateways, since the guy invested so much into the rush (first 2 pylons and 2 gateways), you can expo safely and he won't have any units to attack.
On September 26 2007 09:48 Purind wrote: Hmm... poor guy.
What if... once you see his early manner pylon, you plunk down a forge, go cannon cannon expo cannon? Would that stop it? I'm thinking that once you kill his gateways, since the guy invested so much into the rush (first 2 pylons and 2 gateways), you can expo safely and he won't have any units to attack.
I'm having a vision that Chill is thinking the same exact thing, and yes it would probably work.
On September 26 2007 04:32 Chill wrote: Anyways, this is actually a big problem, because they build the Pylon before you do with normal timing. So if you plan to anti-manner Pylon yourself with normal timing he will have already built the Pylon. If you cut Probes to build yours first, you now have awkward Gateways and you're behind if he plays normal.
I disagree. You only need to cut down one probe to do it, and you build it almost inmediately after the pylon. Also remember that he took his 5th probe to send to your base, meaning you will have economical advantage to start with. Your gateways won't be odd if you practice a little where to put them (you can use the same spot bisu used in the vod).
Anyone should suspect something is fishy when someone scouts you THAT soon on a 2 player map. Even if you went random.
On September 26 2007 04:32 Chill wrote: Anyways, this is actually a big problem, because they build the Pylon before you do with normal timing. So if you plan to anti-manner Pylon yourself with normal timing he will have already built the Pylon. If you cut Probes to build yours first, you now have awkward Gateways and you're behind if he plays normal.
I disagree. You only need to cut down one probe to do it, and you build it almost inmediately after the pylon. Also remember that he took his 5th probe to send to your base, meaning you will have economical advantage to start with. Your gateways won't be odd if you practice a little where to put them (you can use the same spot bisu used in the vod).
Anyone should suspect something is fishy when someone scouts you THAT soon on a 2 player map. Even if you went random.
Not only that but you can thwart this bullshit all together if you just take your 7th (or 8th?) probe and put it on the ramp blocking his from getting up, at least until your gate is done.
If they don't plan to do the manner pylon, then you will only be behind slightly and they will think you are hiding your base because maybe you proxy'ed elsewhere or something.
On September 26 2007 04:32 Chill wrote: Anyways, this is actually a big problem, because they build the Pylon before you do with normal timing. So if you plan to anti-manner Pylon yourself with normal timing he will have already built the Pylon. If you cut Probes to build yours first, you now have awkward Gateways and you're behind if he plays normal.
I disagree. You only need to cut down one probe to do it, and you build it almost inmediately after the pylon. Also remember that he took his 5th probe to send to your base, meaning you will have economical advantage to start with. Your gateways won't be odd if you practice a little where to put them (you can use the same spot bisu used in the vod).
Anyone should suspect something is fishy when someone scouts you THAT soon on a 2 player map. Even if you went random.
Not only that but you can thwart this bullshit all together if you just take your 7th (or 8th?) probe and put it on the ramp blocking his from getting up, at least until your gate is done.
If they don't plan to do the manner pylon, then you will only be behind slightly and they will think you are hiding your base because maybe you proxy'ed elsewhere or something.
They can click the mineral on the second ramp and go through your mineral. :p
On September 26 2007 09:48 Purind wrote: Hmm... poor guy.
What if... once you see his early manner pylon, you plunk down a forge, go cannon cannon expo cannon? Would that stop it? I'm thinking that once you kill his gateways, since the guy invested so much into the rush (first 2 pylons and 2 gateways), you can expo safely and he won't have any units to attack.
that would probably be the best thing to do, assuming u screw up and cant block his manner pylon to begin with (its not hard to stop the manner)
On September 26 2007 04:32 Chill wrote: Anyways, this is actually a big problem, because they build the Pylon before you do with normal timing. So if you plan to anti-manner Pylon yourself with normal timing he will have already built the Pylon. If you cut Probes to build yours first, you now have awkward Gateways and you're behind if he plays normal.
I disagree. You only need to cut down one probe to do it, and you build it almost inmediately after the pylon. Also remember that he took his 5th probe to send to your base, meaning you will have economical advantage to start with. Your gateways won't be odd if you practice a little where to put them (you can use the same spot bisu used in the vod).
Anyone should suspect something is fishy when someone scouts you THAT soon on a 2 player map. Even if you went random.
Not only that but you can thwart this bullshit all together if you just take your 7th (or 8th?) probe and put it on the ramp blocking his from getting up, at least until your gate is done.
If they don't plan to do the manner pylon, then you will only be behind slightly and they will think you are hiding your base because maybe you proxy'ed elsewhere or something.
They can click the mineral on the second ramp and go through your mineral. :p
you'll have your zealots about the same time so as long as he doesnt outmicro you I dont see why this build should be a big problem. not like a manner pylon gives him a huge econ lead, especially since he allready lost some econ sending out his probe so early.
Ok for everyone having trouble with seeing the problem vs this build and saying zealots will be out same time pylon will be same time. Listen here.
He has cut probes to get a faster Pylon 1 second faster TBH. then he will go 9/10 or 9/9 gates he will not do the usual 10/12 so your first gate will seem about the same time but his 2nd is going to be faster. His manner pylon brings the economic advantage that you "would" have even. Now his timing with his zealots will be when you get your first zealot. So now it's 2 zealots vs 1 zealots probes. Good situation at this point right? No it's not he has gates inside your base and 2 more zealots are being built. So now all he has to do is kill probes and he wins.
That is the problem vs this build that only a forge/cannon build can stop.
On September 27 2007 03:57 HellAngel wrote: Ok for everyone having trouble with seeing the problem vs this build and saying zealots will be out same time pylon will be same time. Listen here.
He has cut probes to get a faster Pylon 1 second faster TBH. then he will go 9/10 or 9/9 gates he will not do the usual 10/12 so your first gate will seem about the same time but his 2nd is going to be faster. His manner pylon brings the economic advantage that you "would" have even. Now his timing with his zealots will be when you get your first zealot. So now it's 2 zealots vs 1 zealots probes. Good situation at this point right? No it's not he has gates inside your base and 2 more zealots are being built. So now all he has to do is kill probes and he wins.
That is the problem vs this build that only a forge/cannon build can stop.
Hate to come across like a dick, but I don't know how to change the strategy forum other than nagging at people bit by bit.
"I lost to this too" doesn't really help anyone. Either pose a question or give some analysis of the game. In the near future, posts like this will be deleted.
So if you cannon-expoed, how many cannons would you build before expo? Would you go 2 cannons by your nexus then expo? Would you go 2 cannons, then 1 cannon at natural then expo? Would you go 1 cannon at each location then expo?
On September 27 2007 09:42 Purind wrote: So if you cannon-expoed, how many cannons would you build before expo? Would you go 2 cannons by your nexus then expo? Would you go 2 cannons, then 1 cannon at natural then expo? Would you go 1 cannon at each location then expo?
Completly depends on the situation. If he still built the 2 gates after you made your forge 2 for safe measure and 1 at your expo. Around the time that your expo finishes decide from your scouting to add 1 or 2 more cannons.
On September 27 2007 16:24 Jumperer wrote: I found a sure fire solution to this. All you have to do is block the tiny gap in the middle of the map to delay the sneaky probe from building an early pylon. Or mine out that mineral patch near the ramp and block your ramp with 2 probes.
what is really the problem? when you see he builds his second gateway on 9, just cut yourself your probe production, build second gate, second pylon. as soon as you kill his two gates/supporting pylons - you won! even if you lost half of your probes.
i am talking about ~equal levels here. sure, B- will easily win vs <=C levels with this strat... btw, does it work on terran too?
ok, some more about peaks i tried the following vs a couple of terrans that normally win me and won in all cases: gas him, forge first ->expo! one was very interesting, because he simultaneously was 8raxing me, and my ramp cannon + probes saved my game (probes baught enough time for the cannon to finish). what you think about this protoss strat?
On September 27 2007 22:45 araav wrote: what is really the problem? when you see he builds his second gateway on 9, just cut yourself your probe production, build second gate, second pylon. as soon as you kill his two gates/supporting pylons - you won! even if you lost half of your probes.
i am talking about ~equal levels here. sure, B- will easily win vs <=C levels with this strat... btw, does it work on terran too?
ok, some more about peaks i tried the following vs a couple of terrans that normally win me and won in all cases: gas him, forge first ->expo! one was very interesting, because he simultaneously was 8raxing me, and my ramp cannon + probes saved my game (probes baught enough time for the cannon to finish). what you think about this protoss strat?
...Please tell me at least you semi-read the thread. Even if you lose half your probes you can still lose.he still has 9+ mining while you on the other hand are starting a new game just with buildings.
As for the vs Terran please tell me your kidding forge first cannon? The only reason you should get forge first PvT is cannon cheese. a simple 1-2 gate zealot with 2 probes easily will stop 8rax. Your probe scouts him sees 8rax/no depot you know something fishy is up cut 10th probe build a quicker gate and get zealot up. 1 zealot 1-2 probes can take about 3-4 microed marines.
On September 27 2007 22:45 araav wrote: what is really the problem? when you see he builds his second gateway on 9, just cut yourself your probe production, build second gate, second pylon. as soon as you kill his two gates/supporting pylons - you won! even if you lost half of your probes.
i am talking about ~equal levels here. sure, B- will easily win vs <=C levels with this strat... btw, does it work on terran too?
ok, some more about peaks i tried the following vs a couple of terrans that normally win me and won in all cases: gas him, forge first ->expo! one was very interesting, because he simultaneously was 8raxing me, and my ramp cannon + probes saved my game (probes baught enough time for the cannon to finish). what you think about this protoss strat?
Terrible post; clearly hasn't read the thread and is giving useless, marginally correct advice.
This is unacceptable under new strategy forum rules.
If you see his probe coming into your base it's going to be obvious that it's very early and he must be trying this particular proxy. I don't see why it's so hard to just not let him lay down the pylon. Also, you should 9/10 gate yourself and if you put 4 probes on his manner-pylon then how will he have the supply to make his 2nd pair of zeals? I've never been victimized by this strategy but I don't believe those who are saying how it's so difficult to counter.
On September 27 2007 22:45 araav wrote: what is really the problem? when you see he builds his second gateway on 9, just cut yourself your probe production, build second gate, second pylon. as soon as you kill his two gates/supporting pylons - you won! even if you lost half of your probes.
i am talking about ~equal levels here. sure, B- will easily win vs <=C levels with this strat... btw, does it work on terran too?
ok, some more about peaks i tried the following vs a couple of terrans that normally win me and won in all cases: gas him, forge first ->expo! one was very interesting, because he simultaneously was 8raxing me, and my ramp cannon + probes saved my game (probes baught enough time for the cannon to finish). what you think about this protoss strat?
...Please tell me at least you semi-read the thread. Even if you lose half your probes you can still lose.he still has 9+ mining while you on the other hand are starting a new game just with buildings.
yes i read it. have you tried to understand what have I written for you? what exactly was I saying? now read it again and try to understand. you do not start from zero and he does not have what you have! you should have lots more zeals and two gate constantly adding new zeals, while he does not have shit to fight vs you! now got it? + all of it was UNDER a fucking "EVEN IF": even if you lose half of your probes, which on equal levels you should not!
On September 28 2007 06:05 HellAngel wrote:As for the vs Terran please tell me your kidding forge first cannon? The only reason you should get forge first PvT is cannon cheese. a simple 1-2 gate zealot with 2 probes easily will stop 8rax. Your probe scouts him sees 8rax/no depot you know something fishy is up cut 10th probe build a quicker gate and get zealot up. 1 zealot 1-2 probes can take about 3-4 microed marines.
please tell me you know shit about fast expanding and 8raxing... or, fucking AGAIN, you did at least understood the point of this build... so go on and tell me what exactly was the key of this build
On September 27 2007 03:57 HellAngel wrote: Ok for everyone having trouble with seeing the problem vs this build and saying zealots will be out same time pylon will be same time. Listen here.
He has cut probes to get a faster Pylon 1 second faster TBH. then he will go 9/10 or 9/9 gates he will not do the usual 10/12 so your first gate will seem about the same time but his 2nd is going to be faster. His manner pylon brings the economic advantage that you "would" have even. Now his timing with his zealots will be when you get your first zealot. So now it's 2 zealots vs 1 zealots probes. Good situation at this point right? No it's not he has gates inside your base and 2 more zealots are being built. So now all he has to do is kill probes and he wins.
That is the problem vs this build that only a forge/cannon build can stop.
On September 27 2007 03:57 HellAngel wrote: Ok for everyone having trouble with seeing the problem vs this build and saying zealots will be out same time pylon will be same time. Listen here.
He has cut probes to get a faster Pylon 1 second faster TBH. then he will go 9/10 or 9/9 gates he will not do the usual 10/12 so your first gate will seem about the same time but his 2nd is going to be faster. His manner pylon brings the economic advantage that you "would" have even. Now his timing with his zealots will be when you get your first zealot. So now it's 2 zealots vs 1 zealots probes. Good situation at this point right? No it's not he has gates inside your base and 2 more zealots are being built. So now all he has to do is kill probes and he wins.
That is the problem vs this build that only a forge/cannon build can stop.
uh ya.. so then make your gates earlier?
You can't, you made a later Pylon and got manner Pyloned. If you make your gates as fast as possible, they will still be behind.
facts we now: you got manner-pyloned - right! some minus from you he lost 100 on pylon - 100 minus for him he cut probe production - minus for him he sent his 5th probe - lots of minus for him as soon as you see he builds his X (being it pylon or gate) you can cancel you probe in nexus and build yours! so you can ALWAYS be equal on zealots with him + have a better eco! if he hits with his zeals to probes, he takes shots from your zeals.
you win zeal fight you win the game
if sb does this to you and you do not know about htis=>you may easily lose (frustration, stress). but, fuck, not the second time
he doesnt lose anything on his pylon(if u're gonna kill the pylon u're not gonna be ahead in econ) but other than that I agree 100%.
also; the advantage he has is that he's close to your mineral line so he can harrass and disturb your econ the disadvantage he has is that if he loses a fight he'll lose his gates which (unless he did a lot of damage prior) means he'll lose the game. while if he wins a fight you can use your probes to defend/delay. he also cant pick his battles the same way you can, if he backs away you attack his pylon, if you back away he attacks your probes in which case you just move them and lose a tiny bit of mining.
I really dont think this is a matter of strategy but a matter of execution, if he can outmicro and outplay you with his zealots he'll win, if he cant you should win.
I am curious as how you derive how much minus those things are. Being manner pyloned BLOWS. You lose 2 patches, and it's almost as if you lost two workers. The increase of mining efficiency of those two workers on other patches is not really worth much.
If I were Pokju, though, I would have pulled my probes and gone all-in on that second pylon. Who cares about how much your eco hurts as long as you can stop any zealots from coming out?
I agree with GI like I said in my earlier post. You can kill the second pylon and its almost GG. If he rebuilds it, his zealots are coming out later. Then you can just run him over.
The manner Pylon is actually a huge deal, because of the mineral formation of Peaks, Probes have to go all the way around to get to that back mineral - which is even worsened if he's placed Gateways back there.
I'll go over my point one more time:
At the beginning of the game, because you're manner Pyloned and he's cut Probes since 9 (and not making any more), income has no affect on the game. You both will always have 200 minerals by the time you need to make 2 more Zealots. So the only thing to worry about is building speed.
He Pylons you first, so he's already faster, but you have more minerals. Once you're manner Pyloned, you lose all mineral advantage you had, so he gets his Gateways faster than you. His first Zealots come out faster and start hurting Probes. One Zealot trying to defend one Zealot is impossible, so you lose several Probes. It's also worth mentioning that you probably killed his manner Pylon by this time, but he rebuilt another powering Pylon. So you've freed your trapped Probes. But every Zealot he makes is killing at least a Probe, and the first two especially killed 2-4 each. So you're down 5-6 Probes (from ~10) from his first two Zealots, but you have two Zealots and he doesn't. What are you going to do now? 4 Probes isn't enough to continue 2 Gate Zealot production, so do you cut Zealots to make Probes (which will inevitably be lost anyways) or do you just keep making slower Zealots? Both will lose to his continuous Zealot production.
I don't know how you're arguing against this. There's a VOD posted here showing both players doing exactly what you said, and Bisu ends up with several more Zealots. How do you explain that? How should the defending Protoss play differently?
Nono. When PokJu killed the first pylon, he started targetting only after Bisu commited by building 2 gates. You can kill it before the first zealots are produced AND im sure you can just kill the second one before too. then he just has 2 unpowered gates in your base.
So you're saying target the manner Pylon immediately, and then try to kill the second one before a single Zealot comes out?
Seems like it would work, but how many Probes would you use? All? You'd not have enough minerals to even build your first Gateway if you did this. I don't even think you'd come out ahead, haha.
On September 29 2007 01:07 Chill wrote: One Zealot trying to defend one Zealot is impossible, so you lose several Probes. But every Zealot he makes is killing at least a Probe, and the first two especially killed 2-4 each.
I don't know how you're arguing against this. There's a VOD posted here showing both players doing exactly what you said, and Bisu ends up with several more Zealots. How do you explain that? How should the defending Protoss play differently?
it's not impossible to defend from zealots without losing (that many) probes. also if he suicides his zealots to kill probes he'll lose his pylon/gateways then you can just counter attack.
as for pokju vs bisu, pokju let himself get re-manner pyloned then panic'd and tried to all-out kill bisus units/buildings with all his probes and 1 zealot. also pokju didnt cut probes and match bisus buildings, his second gateway was a lot later. not to mention bisu is a far superior player who would outplay pokju under any circumstances.
On September 29 2007 01:38 Chill wrote: So you're saying target the manner Pylon immediately, and then try to kill the second one before a single Zealot comes out?
Seems like it would work, but how many Probes would you use? All? You'd not have enough minerals to even build your first Gateway if you did this. I don't even think you'd come out ahead, haha.
Watch the VOD, Chill.
2:42: Bisu makes the manner pylon 2:45: Pokju makes his pylon (has 8 probes, 7 mining and one trapped) Around 3:01: Bisu's pylon finishes 3:04: Pokju's pylon finishes (has 9 probes, 8 mining on 7 patches, one trapped) 3:13: Bisu makes his first gate (has 8 probes mining, one probe in Pokju's base, and is not building another probe - aka 9 gate) Around 3:17: Pokju makes his first gate (has 9 probes, 8 mining 7 patches, one trapped, and is building his tenth - 10 gate) 3:20 - 3:24: As his tenth probe finishes, Pokju begins attacking the manner pylon with 2 more probes in addition to the one already trapped (now has 10 probes, 7 mining, one trapped, two attacking pylon) 3:24: Bisu makes his second gate Around 3:39: Pokju's eleventh probe finishes and begins mining. He builds another 3:37: Bisu makes his second powering pylon 3:49 (I think?): Pokju makes his second gate. At the same time Bisu's first gate starts to finish warping in, but the manner pylon is destroyed first. At this point Pokju now has twelve probes mining. 3:54: Pokju's first gate starts to finish. Presumably a zealot is begun, since Pokju's 13th probe is delayed. 3:56: Bisu's second (and now only) pylon begins to finish. 4:01: Bisu's second gate begins to finish 4:09: The camera cuts to Bisu's base, showing just 9 probes, with a tenth being built. 4:15: Bisu manner pylons again. Pokju puts two probes on it to attack it 4:25: Bisu's first zealot comes out Between 4:25 and 4:28: Pokju's first zealot comes out too 4:30: Bisu's second zealot comes out 4:50: Bisu's third zealot comes out. Pokju is long dead at this point because of his retarded all-in probe/zeal strategy, and because he got his zealot trapped between the probes and the gateways. 4:52: Pokju's zealot dies. 4:53: Camera shows Pokju's second zeal just chilling by his second warping pylon for no reason. At this point Pokju has maybe 4 probes mining, one attacking pylon, and another six trying to attack but mostly getting killed. One of them dies right here. Two more die at 5:00 5:03: Bisu's fourth zealot comes out. Around 5:20: Pokju's second zeal dies and his third warps in. He has one probe. Bisu has 4 zealots. Pokju's hero zealot kills two of Bisu's zealots, and Pokju GG's right after.
7:18: Pokju grimaces, like, GOD WHAT THE FUCK SUCH A LAMER NOOB
Pokju could have definitely killed that second pylon of Bisu's and had enough to make one zealot.
On September 29 2007 01:38 Chill wrote: So you're saying target the manner Pylon immediately, and then try to kill the second one before a single Zealot comes out?
Seems like it would work, but how many Probes would you use? All? You'd not have enough minerals to even build your first Gateway if you did this. I don't even think you'd come out ahead, haha.
PoKJu killed the first pylon by targetting only with one probe (the trapped one) and maybe one or two more later on, don't know i didnt check. 5 probes would be enough to kill the second one. Or all of them, doesnt matter. After you kill the second pylon the other toss cant afford rebuilding it forever and you can kill it with zealots.
His only chance after that is to cannon up... with 9 probes (10 maybe?)
EPT
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/staff/Carnac/pringles2mslstart/new_peaks.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2165/rgdk1.png)
i tried the following vs a couple of terrans that normally win me and won in all cases: gas him, forge first ->expo! one was very interesting, because he simultaneously was 8raxing me, and my ramp cannon + probes saved my game (probes baught enough time for the cannon to finish). what you think about this protoss strat?
