EPTNormal Mini Mafia LVI
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United States4397 Posts
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United States4397 Posts
On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote: Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ This is the original post in which 27Bunnies casts suspicion on YKZ for claiming that 27bunnies has "limited information" (implying that YKZ belives that he has more information than 27bunnies, implying that YKZ is mafia since the only possible difference between players atm is town vs mafia). On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote: Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies -----lines for separation------------------------- On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote: You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote: I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm On June 16 2014 11:50 YouKnowZhou wrote: A townie isn't drawn to a VT claim in the way scum is. As a townie, when you see a VT claim, you think "huh, I guess that's a bit weird", but it's not the main thing on your mind. Scum, however jumps on it cause that's what scum does. Also, it's extremely worth noting that Kenpachi Rule Extended applies even to 27nb's current case. LYLO means "LYnch or LOse". It's when if town mislynches, town loses. So, 2 townies and 1 scum together are at LYLO, or 3 townies and 2 scum. On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote: What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! The way in which the Kenpachi rule is explained Without a blatant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player (and the subsequent explanation), a vote due to the Kenpachi rule entails that the vote on the claimed vanilla townie be due to the claim of vt. However, 27bunnie's vote on you is completely independent of your claim of vanilla townie (if you removed you vt claim, 27bunnie would still have voted for you). Because this is the case and 27bunnies has explained this to you (and all of us many times), your posts (no fewer than 4, I only chose the most pertinent posts) after her vote that claim that the Kenpachi rule supports your vote on her, and that her actions support the use of the Kenpachi rule are incorrect. This is YKZ's deliberate misinterpretation of what 27bunnies was saying and is not only a method of causing chaos in the thread, but also an early attempt to start a bandwagon and assume eminence over everyone else in the game. Unless you can prove to me (or anyone else) how Kenpachi's rule actually applies to what 27bunnie did (which would require a change of definition in my perspective, because as the current definition stands, 27bunnie is not mafia by the Kenpachi rule), you will have my vote. ##vote YouKnowZhou Some rather useless defense by YKZ. In the way in which I see it, the following is indicative of playing to survive, and an excessive concern of self, rather than trying to progress, which I believe is indicative of mafia. On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote: I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm Of course YKZ claims Kenpachi's rule works because he is the one using it. Of course YKZ claims that scum never claim vt because he claimed vt and wants to render himself as assured town. YKZ does not necessarily need to be town to make these claims but tries further to convince us of his VT claim. On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote: BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl Same thing and claims that he is better than everyone else (in light of the BH-YKZ duality) On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote: You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. 27bunnie basically tacitly tells everyone to stop discussing blue because it will tell the mafia who are blue, but YKZ insists that this is a scumslip. Logic tells use that if YKZ is mafia, he cannot be blue and therefore the speculation is useless. If YKZ is town, discussion will only lure the mafia shot. Therefore, 27bunnie is correct is dissuading discussion from blue-talk but YKZ underscores it. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote: Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Again, of course he would claim that he doesn't slip as mafia; he made a slip and must therefore defend his slip. This is baseless and mostly just "believe me please." --------more lines for separation--------------- I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ. + Show Spoiler + Since that took an hour, I will take a break and be back in a few hours | ||
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United States4397 Posts
On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote: So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it. Also i am not voting for her yet. Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early. My reads for other players so far. Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read. goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts. Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word. YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player. It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one. Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote: See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum. I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote: Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points. 1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post. 2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt. Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town. 3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information" 4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR. 5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate. @1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote: Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad. Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better! Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue. I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight. i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote: OMG Bh<3 WTG buddy! hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now. So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you.. But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue. That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler + and with that I am off to bed | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy. ##Vote Release Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me. I have not only rehashed what has already been said: I also introduced the idea that YKZ has deliberately misinterpreted what 27bn was saying to cause chaos, his excessive concern about himself as opposed to progress in the game and the unequivocal incorrectness in his logic. Essentially, his anti-town agenda, no just his vote against 27nb. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote: I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I am voting for YKZ because (the words that answers a why questions) of "the idea that YKZ has deliberately misinterpreted what 27bn was saying to cause chaos, his excessive concern about himself as opposed to progress in the game and the unequivocal incorrectness in his logic" as well as that on which 27nb and I agree. I merely provided evidence (my argument) and I think that it is correct. If however it is incorrect, I would of course like to be shown in what way I am wrong (or if you think that it is a justification: where it becomes justification and not reasoning). And I'm not sure how you separate justification from reasoning since I'm pretty sure that my justification for voting is my reasoning (how would one exist without the other when providing evidence against to vote for someone?). On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote: I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. I disagree that this is inconsistent. The former says that I am in favor of bunnies. THe latter says that I believe with strong conviction that YKZ is scum. If you consider that the situation in which I am more certain that YKZ is scum than I believe that 27bn is town (I think a town in that position would have already brought up the points that I made, which to me were glaringly obvious), then this is consistent. What I said in my post: Unless you can prove to me (or anyone else) how Kenpachi's rule actually applies to what 27bunnie did (which would require a change of definition in my perspective, because as the current definition stands, 27bunnie is not mafia by the Kenpachi rule), you will have my vote. As far as I know, his vote is still on 27nb and he has not retracted his use of the kenpachi rule. I am open to what may develop from him, but so far, all he's said is "I lied and acted intentionally scummy and you (27nb) have not acted strongly enough on it and therefore still mafia." + Show Spoiler + On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote: Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it On June 16 2014 12:36 YouKnowZhou wrote: I mean, if a guy is making a case on me (you're not, but 27nb is), why ignore all the weird shit I said after my first post? Or the fact that I like abjectly lied to the thread with intent to decieve? This is not the behavior that someone actually trying to hunt scum and thought bh was scum would exhibit after voting bh. @Lazer My accusation is his repeated attempts to mislead town about the Kenpachi rule, what 27nb has done, his claim of eminence, and his lackluster and ultimately meaningless defenses. My accusation much more detailed and in depth than 27nb's. The scum slip is NOT my accusation; only the catalyst for the events that serve as evidence for my accusation. | ||
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United States4397 Posts
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United States4397 Posts
On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote: "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. @ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos. On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda. I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references. On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote: @Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you: YKZ claims vt 27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information" YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment) 27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information" (lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected). here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote. However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia. --------------------------------------- But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it. On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote: I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not). On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote: Understandable: also ##Unvote I know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people. His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ. On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote: I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts. Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate" I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning) OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time). On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote: I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!! Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book. Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent. I feel confident in YKZ as mafia. | ||
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Yes she mentions it in post above her vote. Yes she says "another." However, the fact that the sentences after that and the vote form a coherent independent sequence of events strongly suggests to me that the primary reason (and ultimately only relevant reason, otherwise we all would have seen a vote in the first post questioning the VT claim) was the "limited information." Therefore, I have reviewed my actions and statements (more than once now) and they are correct. Yes, we have roles but if you read the OP closely, the Mafia Godfather sends his role on N1 or Night 1 which is after today. We have no reason to believe that any other role acts before Night 1. Therefore, no roles have any more information than anyone else except the mafia, who know exactly who is town, and who is mafia. AND, if you have been following closely, "limited information" was an intentional "scumslip" to solicit the use of the Kenpachi rule. However, my reasoning for the YKZ lynch is not for the utterance of "limited information" but for the actions that YKZ took afterwards. I am not wrong. However, this is the second (or more?) time that you have claimed that I am wrong, and I have had to repeat myself (which of course will cause Artanis to give his mandatory "omg release stop rehashing" speech). And in the bolded section (3 posts before this), the connection is not as glaring as the fact that you say "Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. " which does not make sense at all. (Again) wanting someone (YKZ) as town does not make the other player (27bn) mafia, but you say that regardless which is ridiculous. | ||
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I read it and it does not excuse illogical play. Regardless of 0/1/2 of 2 scum, you wish does not affect their roles. You soft retract your statement by saying it's a bad reason, but why say it in the first place if that is the case? | ||
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You vote for mafia. You don't vote for town. Since you strongly imply that you think there is one scum between the two, saying that you would prefer to vote 27nb while simultaneously praising YKZ as a knowledge town player sounds like the situation i originally presented. However, in light of the fact that this was not a particularly salient outcome, I can see that it is not so ridiculous as I first thought. | ||
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Yes, in a counter claim scenario, PR is info. But, I am talking strictly about the interaction b/w YKZ and 27bn. | ||
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On June 17 2014 15:42 goodkarma wrote: --snip-- And it's not like he's been eager to engage in conversation with you or investigate or get others to side with him. And yet he's just very much so convinced you're scum... When I present information, it now exists for town to discuss, and in my case against YKZ, it puts the onus on him to disprove my arguments. However, he has repeatedly chosen to dismiss my points and provide meaningless hypothetical defenses. This is why he seems so scum to me and remains scum more than anyone else. With regard to the Mderg situation: His first post is bad because of it vacillation but at least he takes a firm stance at the end (albeit for somewhat unclear reasons). He also accuses VE for a lack of specificity but does to a lesser extent the same thing with Artanis and SloOsh. And to a lesser extent than YKZ, he seems more focussed on himself than most others. To me he is one the the weaker candidates for mafia outside YKZ. @Lazer Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town. Artanis is on my suspicion list because he his reasoning against me been (I strongly believe) wrong, but he has been firm but not stubborn or inordinately foccused on one topic. His dismissal of YKZ vs 27nb is something that suggests he may be mafia with one of YKZ (my pick) or 27nb but that is a bit of a stretch atm. | ||
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On June 18 2014 06:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I didn't know being wrong was suspicious. I don't understand why I'm on your suspicion list when this is all you provide for it. Wrong more than once about the same thing (my rehash repetiveness) even after SloOsh's statements. It's slight but more significant to me than null. | ||
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On June 18 2014 08:13 Release wrote: I strongly urge you guys to reconsider YKZ vs 27nb. YKZ makes zero effort to consider something other than Kenpachi rule. Always dismisses 27nb's comments by saying he planted the vt claim and therefore it is the reason for 27nb's vote. His logic is not correct. Reread his filter and literally start considering boolean logic when you do so. His posts do not add up; he just commits to this play and hides behind it to wreak chaos. Yes, all game, Bunnies has not been necessarily town, only more townie due to BH's scumminess. However, read my post before the lynch again and you'll see that this is only an attack on BH and the defense of 27nb is a corollary of attacking BH. | ||
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I still urge you guys to really thoroughly check out YKZ's filter and go through his posts and try to follow his logic. It does NOT make sense and you should be realizing this. I feel like this point is not being taken seriously enough. Really do this. I'm not kidding. On June 18 2014 05:38 mderg wrote: My logic was different. I never said that they cannot both be scum. I also didn´t point out several things out that were alignment unindicative, it was one point made by YKZ that I don´t think is actually scummy. The things I didn´t like about her were the focus on the "scumslip" by YKZ, the thing about Release and townreading Artanis. Clearly more things that I think are scummy than things not alignment indicative. The thing(s) I pointed out that weren´t alignment indicative were points brought up by YKZ which I didn´t really agree with. That´s the reason for bringing it up. I think you´re "defending" me for the wrong reasons. I was pretty heavily leaning scum on bunnies, so voting her seems logical, doesn´t it? I was also pretty sure that I´d be here today, just not how much time I could invest. Your reasoning that she could be lynched because of this one vote is flawed. Even in the case that I could not get to a computer today placing the vote would have been the correct choice. Taking the risk that bunnies is potentially mislynched when I think she´s more likely scum than town is better than risk being modkilled. What do you take from this, though? Also, what the hell is it with Chezinu? He doesn´t even try to make sense. Mderg's wording is bad. No Snickers, you are not completely wrong. In fact, "Then he tries to say he votes to prevent mod kill. " (-Snickers) is a completely accurate statement. However, it is not scummy since Mderg knows that he is town as much as anyone else knows they are town. Therefore, for him, having a modkill is 100% chance of bad, whereas a 27nb lynch, for him and I stress for him because you, snickers, seem not to understand, is less than 100% bad. It is consistent. Mderg's "completely wrong" response is kind of illogical, but it feels like he is responding to the sentiment, not the literal candid meaning. Before I focused on the Bandwagony nature of Snickers to put him on my scumlist, but you guys bring up a good point about the way in which his posts harp on specific phrases and sentences. The bandwagon nature is still something that should be review, and the motivation for his harping on specific phrases and sentences is probably to jump on a bandwagon later and cite them as original/self-motivated votes. So snickers now takes a more serious position on my scumlist, but YKZ easily takes the top spot and I still definitely want to lynch him. ##Vote YKZ | ||
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On June 18 2014 05:58 Release wrote: When I present information, it now exists for town to discuss, and in my case against YKZ, it puts the onus on him to disprove my arguments. However, he has repeatedly chosen to dismiss my points and provide meaningless hypothetical defenses. This is why he seems so scum to me and remains scum more than anyone else. With regard to the Mderg situation: His first post is bad because of it vacillation but at least he takes a firm stance at the end (albeit for somewhat unclear reasons). He also accuses VE for a lack of specificity but does to a lesser extent the same thing with Artanis and SloOsh. And to a lesser extent than YKZ, he seems more focussed on himself than most others. To me he is one the the weaker candidates for mafia outside YKZ. @Lazer Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town. Artanis is on my suspicion list because he his reasoning against me been (I strongly believe) wrong, but he has been firm but not stubborn or inordinately foccused on one topic. His dismissal of YKZ vs 27nb is something that suggests he may be mafia with one of YKZ (my pick) or 27nb but that is a bit of a stretch atm. I made a case for you, Snickers. Please read the thread. Are you talking about new information in general, or new information about YKZ? If it's YKZ (or even you), I have not presented much new information because instead of refuting my points, YKZ and you continue to dismiss or ignore my points, indicating to me that you two cannot refute my points and are therefore scum. YKZ has made less of an effort than you to do so, so he gets my vote for today, until he does something to refute my points (as I said on Day 1, which he dismissed).. VE's disgruntledness/lurkiness is bad but not even close to as bad as the way in which YKZ, in particular, and you try to mislead the town. Koshi also deserves a special mention for his lackadaisicalness, but like VE, not as serious of an infringement as that of YKZ and you (Snickers). Mderg would also get a mention, but I feel increasingly much that Snickers is trying to put him in the same position as 27nb on Day 1. The rest seem to be presenting information and ideas well so I feel that they are towny. | ||
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"@Lazer Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town." On June 19 2014 14:26 Snickers wrote: Very funny how you now say these other names after i ridicule you on trying to focus on one. Too bad it is all lies. It sounded like you want opinions on everyone. Do you now not want me to give my opinions? Say one thing then imply the other so you can move either way in the future and not appear suspicious? Your comment is ridiculous and serves only to cause havoc. My focus on YKZ and you should already tell you that you two are significantly higher on my mafialist than others.+ Show Spoiler [in short] + He asks for something that might actually be useful, I provide it, he calls me mafia. Ridiculous Regardless, my comments on the others only solidify the fact that I DO want to focus much more on YKZ and you than everyone else because they have not presented significant enough reason for me to think that they are likely mafia (unlike YKZ and you). | ||
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