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! [G] TvP Building palcement vs Zealots

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
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skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-09 21:47:46
August 16 2006 13:42 GMT
#1
Alot of people complain about how to stop zealots in TvP when walling is not an option. Most people would say "Make rines and micro them with scv". There is also a little trick which many should consider. Certain building placements will allow a marine to go through the gap between 2 buildings, but not a zealot.

The theory
I did the research on placing buildings that you would have in early game TvP, and here are the placements that work and don't:

[image loading]



Extending the theory
Now that you know which combinations and positions of buildings work, you can experiment in putting these together to make a really solid setup, or you can just go with the supply+rax combo on any map. Here are some examples to start you thinking about what makes a good setup:

[image loading]


[image loading]


And from regarding this thread:
[Q] 1st supply placement

[image loading]


[Edit]!!! I'm very hesistant to recommend this special setup. I tried it in an ICCup game, but the zealot manage to fit through. It seems if the zealot is going after your rine, it will go through the gap, but not if you use a move command to try and get it through. Stay with rax+supply or rax+cc in the normal configurations because it is safer.

Applying the theory to real games
Once you have this special gap, what do you do with it? Basically, zealots will have to walk around the buildings the long way, while your rine can walk straight through the gap. If he does take the long way around, just walk through the gap and continue shooting. If he goes for an scv, don't be afraid to attack him, and when he heads for your rine again, just dive towards the gap. Similarly, if he heads for your mineral line, attack him with the rine and retreat to the gap when needed. Also retreat scvs that getting attacked.

Something that is quite important to note is that when you have 2 or more marines to control, to get them all through the gap, you have to spam move or else they'll get confused. Do not attack until you have all the rines safe on the other side of the buildings. I have lost a couple of rines because when 1 rine walks through, the gap is blocked for a moment, so the other rines try and go the long way around and get confused. Spamming move will avoid this.

Also, I tend to place my next supplies adjacent to the existing ones without thinking. This sometimes leads to really awkward groups of supplies that clog my base up. Think carefully about where the supplies go and how you can place it so that the next supplies you make will be in a neat place.

Pros and Cons
If you use this technique properly, you are perfectly safe with 1 marine vs the first zealot if you have good micro. It also saves mining time compared to building a wall because your scvs do not have to travel so far away and back (and you won't get annoying tosses building a pylon at your wall or anything).

When 2 or more zealots come, you start to get into trouble. Obviously he can trap your rines by simply attacking from both sides of the gap. By then however, you should have a vult building if you took good care of your scv that's building your factory (and this is why you need the factory close to your setup, so it can build as fast as possible without being held up). If he sends goons after that, they will be a problem without a wall too, but some scvs to hold your ramp should be enough.

This idea is not mine, and I read it when someone said "nada puts his rax beside his cc so he can run his rine through and make a maze". Also, please don't try and say things like "lol youre a retard" etc without trying it yourself in a game.

niteReloaded's work
All credit goes to him of course, and he covers all the different possible positions with each combination of buildings, plus some examples of setups on RLT and RH3:

  • CC+Baracks combos:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. Baracks left, CC right:
    [image loading]


    2. Baracks up, CC down:
    [image loading]


    3. Baracks right, CC left:
    [image loading]


    4. Baracks down, CC up:
    [image loading]




  • Barracks + Supply combos
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. Supply left&right of the baracks:
    [image loading]


    2. Supply up&down of the barracks:
    [image loading]



  • CC + supply combos:
    No matter how you put them next to each other, not a marine nor a zealot can go in between.
    (Had a picture of it, but apparently I dont have it anymore. This one shouldnt be too hard to understand )



Practical use:
I made all starting positions for the RLT and RHIII so that you get the idea of how to use this in a real game.

  • Reverse Temple:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. 12 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    2. 6 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    3. 8 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    4. (Once again, it seems that the 2 o'clock position of RLT has disappeared from my hard drive so you'll just have to do this as a homework ^ ^)

  • Rush Hour III:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. 3 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    2. 7 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    3. 11 o'clock position:
    [image loading]




Summary of all this information

1. A rax, with a supply on the right of it is good in any arrangement as long as they are adjacent.
2. A CC, with a rax to the right of it is good in any arrangement as long as they are adjacent.
3. 2 supplies right beside each other is good.
4. All other arrangements are basically useless.

Just like how people experiment with FE setups in PvZ, do a bit of research yourself on the maps you like to play and memorize the setups for each position. If you're playing on a map where you haven't done the experimenting, then you can stick with your simple CC+Rax or Supply+Rax combos.

Note: To test out quickly on a map, pick toss against a terran computer, then mc the scv that builds the first rax. The computer will sit there and do nothing from then on.
bine
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States2352 Posts
August 16 2006 13:45 GMT
#2
nice! awesome graphics etc. skyglow! had no idea this was possible.
Alborz
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada1551 Posts
August 16 2006 13:53 GMT
#3
Thank you :O
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
August 16 2006 14:04 GMT
#4
Man pics explain it so easy. Guides and advice should be followed by pics all the time <3
Moderator<:3-/-<
Alborz
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada1551 Posts
August 16 2006 14:15 GMT
#5
On August 16 2006 23:04 IntoTheWow wrote:
Man pics explain it so easy. Guides and advice should be followed by pics all the time <3

Werd.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
August 16 2006 16:22 GMT
#6
Shit this is nice
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
deus_073
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Romania187 Posts
August 16 2006 23:05 GMT
#7
^_^ nice
comabreaded
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
United States2166 Posts
August 16 2006 23:23 GMT
#8
on luna i had top right and did the rax placement in the 2nd ss. the zeal came and my marine was spazzing in a circle till he died while i clicked frantically, and my opponent was like "?"

!!!
I put the fu in fun
SCNewb
Profile Joined June 2006
Canada2210 Posts
August 16 2006 23:28 GMT
#9
it makes a lot more sense now..thanks
Huge iloveOov fan
ShabZzoY!
Profile Joined July 2004
Great Britain760 Posts
August 16 2006 23:43 GMT
#10
FANCY
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
August 16 2006 23:59 GMT
#11
Oh, that's sexy.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
hall-
Profile Joined August 2006
United States22 Posts
August 17 2006 00:04 GMT
#12
oh~
7=K, l_=n,_l_=oh, T=oo~as in pool~ l=i,e, o=null consonant,v (right side up)=s,l- =a~as in bat~, -l=o,~as in hOt~, l= =ya,=l =yo~as in yawn~Korean keyboard -_-,want
ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
August 17 2006 00:26 GMT
#13
awesome. so left side of rax alongside cc? gotcha :o]
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
Larva
Profile Joined November 2005
United States363 Posts
August 17 2006 01:27 GMT
#14
Ahah, I learned this the hard way by walling wrong and being rushed early by zealots when I played Terran, but those facts I know, and helped me a lot against gay proxies/cheesers :\.
LOL AT THIS GUY ABOVE ME.
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
August 17 2006 03:12 GMT
#15
can zerglings make their way around? +_+
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
August 17 2006 03:35 GMT
#16
yeah lings can get in
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
strik.fr
Profile Joined May 2006
France212 Posts
August 17 2006 04:54 GMT
#17
Good thanks ..finally a smart trick. Funny pics
my top 5 forever 1)nada 2)julyzerg 3)iloveoov 4)Boxer 5)Nal_ra
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
August 17 2006 04:58 GMT
#18
On August 17 2006 12:12 QuietIdiot wrote:
can zerglings make their way around? +_+


quiet idiot!
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
LegendaryDreams
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Canada1350 Posts
August 17 2006 05:48 GMT
#19
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
call me moxie
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
August 17 2006 05:50 GMT
#20
You're fucked.

But on a more serious note i think rax+depot would work there.
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