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Hello, recently i was playing with JuicyPeach in ESL and lost to him with some very suspicious moments on his side. Already before game i was warned that he is maphacker from RoX.Kis.Creed:
RoxKISCreed: удачи
вс мх играешь =)
на есл
You: прикольно
http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup302/match/28742067/
There is a replay where you can see everything yourself. Some moments i pointed out to admins:
[15:29] <Strelok> just 2 moments. 13:55 up to 15:10. i fly with medivac which he doesn't see. he immediately warps 3 hts. and several times selects his army near main nexus while i am flying
[15:29] <Strelok> and the biggest moment - 18:23
[15:29] <Strelok> he goes attack and suddently starts warping stalkers back at third
[15:29] <Strelok> without seing i am going to drop here
You can say: "just luck". But this guy already was banned from resp.su (russian league), also (according to Rox.Kis.Creed there was a topick about him on teamliquid).
RoxKISCreed: угу
и на тл про него тему делали
ака goodmorning
farabuty
ESL admins gave me freewin, because they have found that it's his fake account and main one was already banned (don't know why, they refused to say me that), but they couldn't give me freewin based on the fact that in fact he is a maphacker.
But what i really can't understand. There is a person with very suspicious moments in game. he already was banned from several russian tournaments, for example reps.su. there was a topick about his previous maphacking on TL, but there is not enough for ban? Then what is enough for that??
And believe me, this guy is not the only one who is a very "suspicious" GML players in Europe. The other one, for example, is CPlayTT.ImbaToss. This guy, by the way, is also very active in tournaments. 80% of people i talked with about him either wonder how he blindly counters all they do or just suspect him in maphack.
http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup300/match/28714165/
That's the example of match. Without knowing exactly on which position i am - he makes proxy pylon and rallies his mothership core there, decides to push, then (without seing i decide to protect not low ground) decides not to push. Suspicious? A bit, because i scouted him rather early and he could decide that i am not cross positions. But that happens EVERY game. Suddenly banshees or mutas meet 6 hidden phoenixes, the scouting is not made vs passive but is made vs CC before barrack, e.t.c.
I asked my manager about that situation, he told me that this guy not so long ago won 5-0 german team Sgent, with 5 times in a row blindly countering them.
Also, for example, our chat with 1 of russian progamers (i don't want to call his name, because i didn't ask him permission): (sorry russian)
[21.07.2013 19:02:13] j7: Привет, у тебя не возникали ощущения, что Imbatoss палил стрим?
[21.07.2013 19:36:51] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): привет
[21.07.2013 19:36:56] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): возникали, и очень конкретные
[21.07.2013 19:36:59] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): особенно в 3 игре
[21.07.2013 19:37:16] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): но что я мог сделать?
[21.07.2013 19:37:32] jaegon87: ну он против меня играл в четверг, я тоже проиграл 1-2
[21.07.2013 19:37:45] j7: и сегодня когда он играл против нерчио
[21.07.2013 19:38:07] j7: были моменты, когда он просто вслепую контрил че делает соперник
[21.07.2013 19:38:39] j7: ну, просто хотел спросить, что ты думаешь по этому поводу
[21.07.2013 19:38:50] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): просто дело в том
[21.07.2013 19:38:57] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): что я смотрел - вроде как была задержка на стриме
[21.07.2013 19:38:58] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): 2 минуты
[21.07.2013 19:39:11] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): я спецом проверил после того
[21.07.2013 19:39:23] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): как на моих баньшей без разведки отреагировали 6ю фениксам
[21.07.2013 19:39:39] j7: ну мб просто мапхак
[21.07.2013 19:40:04] Евгений (Na'Vi.FXOStrelok): ну а как доказать-то 
[21.07.2013 19:40:12] j7: ну вот он когда играл против нерчио, нерчио ставит шпиль, а он мгновенно 2 старгейта поставил
The main idea of chat is that j7 saying he thinks that this guy was watching a stream in games against me and i say there was a delay. Then he says - he also played with him on thursday and lost with suspicious moments. And now ImbaToss plays Nerchio and j7 finds these games also suspicious.
PLEASE!!! I know you will discuss, if there was a cheat in those games or not, but answer the main question: "If usual suspicious actions every game is not enough, then how on Earth maphack can be proved, if he doesn't do that way too silly?"
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Blizzard needs to either open up more data or develop a punkbuster-esque software for these things to stop happening.
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I played imbatoss in one of the cups and i thought the same, i think i even wrote to him he was streamcheating, but let's not jump to conclusions 
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The basic issue with all the hacks and cheats around is that the client receives all data about the game and just hides it from sight. Therefore the hidden information is still on the computer and there will always be a possibility to reveal it. I don't know if it is possible to have an RTS without sending out all data or if - latency wise - the game would still work serverside, where the server just sends out the information each specific client knows about. I doubt it though. In the end; the cheating will not be stopped.
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IMO, the best way to combat this in online competitions is to have blizzard/tournament organizers create a simple program that players must run on their machine when they choose to compete in those tournaments and it would allow an admin to view any active programs. Given it is the player's choice to enter those tournaments, it wouldn't be a privacy situation as those players could choose to not enter the tournaments.
By limiting it to the tournament scene, there would not be as much incentive for hackers to find a way around that program as most hacks are developed for general use on ladder where they reach a broader audience.
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On July 28 2013 22:47 krazykoz wrote:
IMO, the best way to combat this in online competitions is to have blizzard/tournament organizers create a simple program that players must run on their machine when they choose to compete in those tournaments and it would allow an admin to view any active programs. Given it is the player's choice to enter those tournaments, it wouldn't be a privacy situation as those players could choose to not enter the tournaments.
By limiting it to the tournament scene, there would not be as much incentive for hackers to find a way around that program as most hacks are developed for general use on ladder where they reach a broader audience.
Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money.
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Well i did play him in go4sc2 too and something seemed a little bit off, and about imbatoss, for me he popped out of nowhere and started winning vs top players and then got onto CPLAY which is a decent European team, let's not jump into conclusions yet but im pretty damn sure something is a bit off about em.
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Mh is like the esports' player's PED. At least it's not nearly prevalent in the sport  . I can't imagine a day where maphacks will no longer pose a problem in an online match So... to "answer" the question, it's sad to say that there probably will never be a way .
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Just checked a replay of my game vs JuicyPeach, it bothers me a lot how he didn't scout me at all, and by at all i mean AT ALL, only scout that he did was 1 time to check at his third and fourth for a probe that indeed was hiding there.
Other than that, i can't say that he maphacked for sure, he played blind and pretty cheesy into an all in, cant say more than that.
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On July 28 2013 22:44 grs wrote:
The basic issue with all the hacks and cheats around is that the client receives all data about the game and just hides it from sight. Therefore the hidden information is still on the computer and there will always be a possibility to reveal it. I don't know if it is possible to have an RTS without sending out all data or if - latency wise - the game would still work serverside, where the server just sends out the information each specific client knows about. I doubt it though. In the end; the cheating will not be stopped.
There was a paper recently on exactly that, rts design that would not noticeably affect latency but also allow for it being hack proof, at least on the client side. Probably too late for blizz to implement that though at this point in sc2's life.
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On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:
Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money.
How would it not be legal? No one is forcing these players to play the game, let alone compete in competitions. It would simply be an additional criteria for entering tournaments. Choose not to meet the criteria and you have chosen not to compete. No one is forcing anything on anyone.
And I never said hacks are developed for ladder only, so no idea why you are putting words in my mouth.
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On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:47 krazykoz wrote:
IMO, the best way to combat this in online competitions is to have blizzard/tournament organizers create a simple program that players must run on their machine when they choose to compete in those tournaments and it would allow an admin to view any active programs. Given it is the player's choice to enter those tournaments, it wouldn't be a privacy situation as those players could choose to not enter the tournaments.
By limiting it to the tournament scene, there would not be as much incentive for hackers to find a way around that program as most hacks are developed for general use on ladder where they reach a broader audience. Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money.
ESEA does it
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report the player to blizzard. if enough people does that blizzard will take a look at the guy and if given enough evidence, a ban can happen. its probably the only thing that can be done except raise awareness of the player (which this thread does; good job strelok)
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Juicypeach is a maphacker, and thats no question. About the other guy I have no idea, as I have never played him. I would love blizzard to take a look at the reports Im constantly sending about possible hackers. Guess its to difficult to implement any antihack utility to the game.
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If imbatoss is a maphacker then i dont feel as bad losing to his proxy 2gate on akilon wastes :D
This is also one of the reasons i dont like to participate in online tournaments. Lans have much better settings and the chance of cheating is close to zero.
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On July 28 2013 23:02 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:On July 28 2013 22:47 krazykoz wrote:
IMO, the best way to combat this in online competitions is to have blizzard/tournament organizers create a simple program that players must run on their machine when they choose to compete in those tournaments and it would allow an admin to view any active programs. Given it is the player's choice to enter those tournaments, it wouldn't be a privacy situation as those players could choose to not enter the tournaments.
By limiting it to the tournament scene, there would not be as much incentive for hackers to find a way around that program as most hacks are developed for general use on ladder where they reach a broader audience. Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money. ESEA does it
Not comparable. CS is client server. As I wrote above, that is the basic problem (SC2 being client/client; with all information available on both sides).
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On July 28 2013 23:02 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:
Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money. ESEA does it
So other organizations are actively trying to stomp out hackers from their competitions, and Blizzard sits idly? Let me find my surprised face...
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On July 28 2013 23:02 Durmaz21 wrote:
report the player to blizzard. if enough people does that blizzard will take a look at the guy and if given enough evidence, a ban can happen. its probably the only thing that can be done except raise awareness of the player (which this thread does; good job strelok)
I don't know dude. To me it seems like the reporting system is just a visual feature but practically it doesn't do anything.
I judge by the amount of people that were reported by at least 20+ people and they still maphack/cheat freely even now.
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On July 28 2013 23:01 krazykoz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:
Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money. How would it not be legal? No one is forcing these players to play the game, let alone compete in competitions. It would simply be an additional criteria for entering tournaments. Choose not to meet the criteria and you have chosen not to compete. No one is forcing anything on anyone. And I never said hacks are developed for ladder only, so no idea why you are putting words in my mouth.
Because it is not solved with a launcher like Cplay does it.
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On July 28 2013 23:00 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:44 grs wrote:
The basic issue with all the hacks and cheats around is that the client receives all data about the game and just hides it from sight. Therefore the hidden information is still on the computer and there will always be a possibility to reveal it. I don't know if it is possible to have an RTS without sending out all data or if - latency wise - the game would still work serverside, where the server just sends out the information each specific client knows about. I doubt it though. In the end; the cheating will not be stopped. There was a paper recently on exactly that, rts design that would not noticeably affect latency but also allow for it being hack proof, at least on the client side. Probably too late for blizz to implement that though at this point in sc2's life.
yep mostly run serverside is quiet possible, but for the not noticeable latency I guess everyone would have to pay 20 euro a month. And it is far from being immune towards cheating.
At the end you need good Admins for online tournaments, thats all you can do. Everything else is just a bonus to aid them in their decision.
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EPT
