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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On April 15 2013 01:53 GreYMisT wrote: You're acute one aren't you? I think we should all take a page out of GreYMisT's book, and try to be a little more complementary. /in because I want to turn those weeping angles into some rectangles. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On April 15 2013 07:59 FiveTouch wrote: /in sharrant, you still owe me something I do. But I'm withholding it until you actually finish a game that we're both in. You made me so sad when you ran away on day one last game. :-( | ||
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1. My activity's going to suck for a bit. I'll have about 2 hours tomorrow where I'm on the bus (potentially up to 4), I can't guarantee I'll post during that time because I hate phone posting, but I'll at least be giving the game some thought. I won't be back until about 10 PM EST, and I work the day after at 3 PM, so that's when you're going to get the most activity out of me. 2. I believe there's a bit of a misconception about mechanics floating around, at least that was my impression reading the thread. I believe the angels have both an Angel "piece" and a human "piece" on the board. It strikes me that the human piece will still look human in the beam of a flashlight, only the Angel piece will be revealed. Thus looking at people is not enough to confirm them. (From this point on I'm going to use Town for the human pieces controlled by town, Angel for the Angel piece controlled by a mafia, SAngel for the angel statues on the board, and puppet for the human piece controlled by the Angels). When you do look at a player piece on the board, there's a 1/4 chance that you do cost the Angels 1 movement speed by looking at their puppet. Any actions on or against a puppet do count against Angels, so I believe viewing their puppets slows down the Angels as well. 3. How much leeway are we given on our movement instructions? I would like it verified which of these movement commands would be acceptable and which are not. A) Moving 2 spaces North while facing West, then moving 2 spaces North while facing East. B) Moving one space Northwest while facing East C) Moving one space North, and then one space East, all while facing West D) Staying stationary, Looking East, North, West, then South in that order. 4. As far as the optimal group size and distance between players, I think the optimal route is to synchronize as much visible area with as much illuminated area as possible. Presumably town actions must be used on other town in the proximity, or puppets or illuminated angels so proximity is a big factor still. If we can keep people relatively spread out, but with a wide net of vision we will likely slow angels through their puppets as well as gain the potential to act upon those puppets. We will potentially get to act on other town that are close by, as well as slow Angels as they move around our town block. We also have the potential to catch the Angels out on a lie if the information from town does not coincide with the information given from their puppets. 5. I do think it's important to identify both town and puppets on the board, whether or not we use a pre defined movement strategy, or we just do our best to figure it out and relay it to the thread. Giving us more opportunities to coordinate is what's going to give us the best chance at winning in my opinion. Being able to identify weakness in our board position, as well as being able to determine whether our board position may be compromised by a suspicious player in the game is what will give us the best survival chance. 6. All that being said, I think just plain old analysis is still the strongest tool we have. In Boardwalk PYP, BM made it very close to the end of the game based on inaccurate set up speculation, so that's not something I want to have happen again. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
Glad to see people moved off of lynching Oatsmaster. I can't say I have him as a distinct town read, but the last game I played with him be played virtually identical to this as town, and was lynched day one. That said, if he continues this into day two, I'll want to lynch him. Vivax: Honestly, the thing that sticks out to me the most about Vivax is his willingness to lynch Oats despite the first hand knowledge he has of Oats doing this as town last game. On the one hand, I could see a townie frustrated with how the game went last time because of Oats, and wanting to punish that behaviour in town while still giving himself a 1/4 chance to hit scum. Or I could see mafia going for what he thinks is an easy mislynch, like last game. The second most important thing in his filter, is the mention of B and J. When under the assumption he later mentioned, that players moved via cardinal direction, this was something I had thought of as well. I had tried my hand at creating a movement pattern that would put as many people in the optimal position as possible. I could never figure one out because of the spread of the board. My problem with a Vivax lynch right now is that I don't think he's lying about believing the game operated with cardinal directions. If he earnestly believed that, I don't think his post is scummy at all. I think it might be a bit counter productive, but not scummy. Now if he's lying, then absolutely he's scum and he got caught trying to fish for player movements. So I ask everyone, do you think he's lying about his knowledge of the movement scheme. If you do, what is it that makes you think he's lying? Convince me that he is, and I'll happily vote him. Vivax, what do you think about keeping Oats alive for today, and lynching him if his play does not improve over the next cycle? Ghost: Ghost, last time we played we were on the same wavelength instantly. That immediately gave me a huge town read on you, this game we're pretty far apart. In the last two games I played, Vivax was a very strong force for town. He established his townieness right away, but didn't just rely on that for credit, he kept playing a consistent game. Half your reasoning for killing Vivax seems to be "This post was kind of scummy", and the other half seems to be "Vivax's town game isn't good enough to belong in this town". Please go and skim his filter in Boardwalk PYP (I think that's the right game). Does that make you feel better or worse about his bandwagon in this game? Does it change your read on him at all? Sentinel: Sentinel is where my vote would feel safest. His filter just seems off, but not in the "paranoia/jumping at shadows" way that a town player can feel off. He spent so much time defending himself about his weird read early on, but people were asking him questions about it, so he gets a little bit of a pass on that part. The biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter to me, is his dropping of Vivax as a suspect just when everyone else was warming up to his lynch. Sentinel, what do you make of Vivax's actions post-removing your vote from him? Do they reinforce your idea to remove your vote from him, or are they making you reconsider voting for him? | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:28 marvellosity wrote: ferry, I think they didn't not make sense, if you get my drift. Sharrant, explain to me like I'm stupid. Why does thinking we use cardinal directions mean something towards working out where B and J go? I'm definitely missing something here. Could you also explain to me why you'd want to lynch an Oats playing like town-Oats on Day 2 but you wouldn't want to lynch an Oats playing like town-Oats on Day 1? I can't explain Vivax's thought patterns, but I can explain mine. I fucking love puzzles, and thinking problems. The reason I signed up for this game is because it's a mafia game based on a puzzle essentially, so the first thing I did was look at the game to see if it could be solved as a puzzle or which solution would give us the greatest chance of winning. You cannot work out moves for a subset of players (B and J) but what you can do, is work out an optimal list of ordered moves for players. The idea was to create a list that primarily moves players to the left of the board. Moving players to the left is going to give us more visual overlap. The ideal scenario would be all 12 players in a corner, against the wall, players on outer edges facing parallel to the wall, everyone else a step or two out from the wall randomly alternating the direction they're looking between perpendicular to the wall nearest them, and out from the group parallel to the wall nearest them. This makes it hardest for the angels to identify a pattern in which they can enter or get close to our group without being spotted. It also potentially outs puppets for making Angel favoured moves, or making improper reports. Using Cardinal movements it was possible to begin moving players to the lower left hand corner, while giving a move pattern which would identify at least 50% of players, up to a possible 100%. The difference in potential identification is due to people running into walls/other players causing their actual movement to be inconsistent with their stated movement. There were certainly problems with my plan, but it seemed to be the optimal plan when cardinal movements were allowed. Does that adequately explain it? I'm not sure if I'm capable of conveying it very well. Can Angels feed AND use their conventional KP on the same night? If a player is fed upon are they killed that same night? | ||
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Sharrant
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On May 17 2013 00:37 marvellosity wrote: Sharrant I don't like a lot of your post actually. Further stuff: You spend a long time talking about Vivax without coming to a conclusion, including this. You give two options but you distinctly don't give a stance on either. Not even a leaning, it's just words for the sake of words. It's bad. Sentinel is your primary scum suspect, but why? What's the justification here? His filter is "off" in an unexplained way, that's useless. He defended himself when he was attacked, that's not a reason either. And as for the biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter - you need to explain very, very clearly to me exactly why what you said makes him mafia. Why does BlazingHand voting Vivax sometime after Sentintel unvoted him make Sentinel mafia? Again this says very little about ghost, other than insinuating that you find him mafia because you're not on his wavelength this time. Is ghost mafia or not? What's the purpose of all this? Let's nip this in the bud then. Vivax isn't a mafia suspect for me at this point. I do not see in his filter the same things that in the last two games have given me instant strong town reads on him, but their absence is not reason for me to believe he is scum. His thought process about the player movement is something that I had thought of as well, the difference though is his seems more specific to a subset of players. I do not, at this time, have reason to believe Vivax is scum. He is a light town read, the only thing holding him back from being a stronger town read is that his plan focused on the subset of B and J, when it should be applied to everyone. The reason I mentioned Sentinel having defended himself to other people's questions is because I am not sure if I'm reaching on this one. His weird defence of fferyllt does not look like it comes from a townie, it looks like it came from scum. If his defense had been unprompted by questions, I'd be sure he was scum. As it is, I don't really know how I feel about his defense. It was driven by other peoples questions, but he seemed to be content JUST defending himself, rather than answering the questions and pushing a town objective at the same time. I'm not insinuating that Ghost is scum, whether that is how it reads to you or not. I am hoping to have a discussion with him because I do know that we think similarly, but we have had very different experiences with Vivax after the last game we both played with him. I want to be able to determine if we can get on the same page this game, and if we can't whether it's because of differing experiences with the player base or set up, or whether it's because we're of differing alignments. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
@Oats I posted that because I was asked to. Yes, I am defending Vivax because at this point I don't think he's mafia. @Phagga I can't read Oats on day one. I'm okay with letting him do what he wants for day one, because there's evidence he'll do this as town. If he continues into day two doing the same thing, I will not be okay with that. He gets a pass for day one, but if he's not giving out reads and playing his heart out then, then I want him to hang. It's as simple as that, either it will motivate him to play properly as town, or he'll swing as scum. The end. And no, that does not imply Vivax is scum. Like I said, I completely can see it as Sentinel wanting to wash his hands of a mislynch he started. If they're both scum? Not really sure, I could see the same scenario, but I could also see him riding it out for cred if there's no one to stop the bandwagon. It's that he got off the bandwagon, but did nothing to STOP the bandwagon. "I no longer think this guy is scum, but you guys go ahead and lynch him". | ||
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Sharrant
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On May 17 2013 01:04 phagga wrote: So basically you have no clear read on anyone, and are just naming the 3 guys that have pressure on them anyway, although you don't think anyone is scum? What is this? Who do you want to lynch right now, and why? You don't need to write an essay, I just want at least one name and an explanation for it. Sentinel: His early game unprovoked defense of fferyllt was strange in a way that I do not see coming from a townie. His following start up of the bandwagon on Vivax and then hopping off strikes me as mafia motivated 9 times out of 10 because he had weak reasoning coming off of it, but didn't attempt to dissuade anyone else or comment on their positions about Vivax. Ergo: he wants the lynch to happen, but doesn't want to be on the lynch when it happens. I haven't voted him yet because I still have more time to put into looking through the thread, if I don't find someone I think is more likely to be mafia than him, then he'll get my vote soon enough. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:07 marvellosity wrote: Sharrant, Sentinel voted for Vivax, ghost voted for Vivax, Sentinel unvoted Vivax. That's the timeline as I see it. Are you seriously suggesting a mafia Sentinel unvoted a player because one other player voted for him? Zepphird also voted for him in that time frame. After seeing Vivax get two quick votes from people that sounded like they were ready to pursue him about it, yes I could see him unvoting and just trying to ride out the day. There were 3 votes on him all within 1 or 2 pages, it certainly looked to me, when I was reading through everything, that votes were going to pile up on Vivax from that point on. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:14 Oatsmaster wrote: This is quite a lot of assumptions from 1 action. So he is your top scumspect because, 1. Odd defense 2. Weak reasoning for hopping off Vivax? Can you elaborate on both points? His odd defense I think has been gone over fairly solidly by others like Marv. He comes in to defend Ferryllt for seemingly no reason, with very strange logic. "It's someone who is just really over eager to post as town" "It was just a mistake that they posted a fluff post" "They were just so over eager that they forget that they were supposed to say anything in their post". It just read to me as someone trying to pick up a town buddy, but making some critical judgement errors along the way. 2. His reason for voting Vivax in the first place was "you wanted people to move at full speed, moving at full speed means that mafia will know who the weak people are to kill off, you must be mafia" That was his only scum read at the time. Later he just says "Okay, we'll just agree to disagree." and unvotes him. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:16 marvellosity wrote: you're right, Zeph did. ok, I missed that. *ponders* kinda makes more sense. how do you feel about lynching deconduo? I certainly wouldn't be sold on a deconduo lynch. He's clearly reading the thread quite closely. He called out Sentinel for how little attention he was giving to the thread (missing some of vivax's posts/questions, quoting the wrong person). I do like his case on Ghost, I believe you have echoed his sentiments. I'm not sold on his case, as I stated before I would like to speak to Ghost before I think I can divine his alignment with any accuracy, but it is a solid case. Depending on Ghost's answers I could definitely follow him on it. All in all he seems like someone who is actively engaged in the thread, reading closely, and thinkign critically about the game. I'd wager he's town. | ||
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Phagga, Marv, who would you suggest I look into right now? | ||
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On May 17 2013 01:38 marvellosity wrote: I actually have remarkably little time between now and the deadline, which is annoying. Curses early deadline! There are two main reasons I could lynch deconduo, since I keep canvassing opinion about it. First of all, there's the drop and run case on ghost. It's an easy case for mafia to make (yes yes, I know I agreed with some of it), and besides it there's very little interactions or comments on other players. I did a check on some of his previous games earlier, in PYP Boardwalk, decon was pretty quick to offer comments on several different players, unlike here. Secondly there's this post: I still feel this plan is pretty mafia-motivated. As I understand how the movement rules work, giving pre-determined directions to players has massive benefits for mafia, because they know how the movements correspond to each player, which could help them determine how the hidden angels that we don't know about would move, while giving out information ahead of townies ahead of time is meaningless because they can't know who they are. My hesitation is that he was saying townies pick between 2 or 3 moves without revealing them. This does narrow down the possible movements that the mafia have to worry about, but does it narrow it down enough to be helpful? Say, if the options were simple, and I was asked to move either forward 3 spaces, backwards 3 spaces, or to the right 3 spaces, would this help the angels feed on me? Those are quite far apart on the board, the exception being if I'm a character near a wall. I guess, the bigger concern for me there, would be: Are you thinking that he would assign people movement options that would, on average, gather people near where the angels are intended to be? Actually, having that thought I can see how that would be an amazing plan for the Angels IF they're the ones who assign the movement options. I will have to think about this. | ||
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##Vote: Deconduo | ||
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On May 17 2013 01:56 marvellosity wrote: Should have got you lynched, really, I would have gotten my long-awaited prize all the sooner ;P Hahaha, you certainly should have, guess you'll just have to wait a few days. I think this might be the first time I'm actually right about thinking you're town. I'm so happy! | ||
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On May 17 2013 02:39 Zephirdd wrote: Because of what marv said + his sudden jump on deconduo. I dont see much substance either on his few posts. I also have trouble formuling ideas and writting them on the phone. Do you mean about what Marv said about how he still should have lynched me? Also, what do you think is scummy about my switch over to Deconduo? | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
I don't buy into the whole "hosts let him get away with using cardinal directions because he is scum", that could've been an honest mistake, I don't particularly buy into the host WIFOM. What I believe makes it a scum slip is that he said "I wanted to move here". A townie would have no idea who they are, so how could they have a specific destination in mind? On the board I am most certainly L, all I did was an about face, didn't figure anyone else would do anything similar, and I didn't want to potentially move myself into a worse position by blindly moving. (about 70-30 chance of picking the right direction versus not) It seems to me that the optimal movement for town is as follows: Form into large groups as quickly as possible, and gather up stragglers as we move around the board. The trick here, is that once we are into a group, we do not want our specific move patterns known. It's been revealed to us through Vivax's PM that the angels have a "leap" mechanic, where they match a players movement within a certain range. We can use this to our advantage in the following way: Once we are in groups of 3-4 people, the group will set a direction of up to 3 spaces. The players in the group will all keep their moves hidden but will do their best to follow the assigned direction and distance. (optimal distance is probably 1 or 2) The people on the outside of the group always move inwards, and the people on the insides always move outwards. I believe this would make the leaps ineffective in the clutter because of bodyblocking. It also means if an angel does get inside the group, we can pretty much guarantee at least someone will have their flashlight on the angel, after that it's just coordination. [green]If an angel encounters an obstacle, say a town character, that is not their intended target during a leap what will happen? If a player ends the night beside an Angel, does that Angel feed automatically, or does the Angel have to specify the target in advance and then get close to them?[green] ##Vote: Oatsmaster | ||
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