EPTNewbie Mafia XL
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
First off all, my prime playing time will probably be when you US folks are sleeping and the other way around. So please keep in mind that it may sometimes take several hours before I can answer question and provide my view points. We should try to find a middle ground between spam and lurking, obviously neither are good for town. But I rather we focus on posting when we have some new insight to provide, and thus help keep the thread atleast somewhat clean. Unessecary spam is just... spam. I fail to see how spam, confusion and weak claims are helping town. This is what've noticed after reading this thread (and I'm not alone): In less than 8 hours, Rainbows has provided three different "cases". The first one could be passed off as a joke. The second, according to himself a "serious" vote based on not getting an answer quickly enough (?). The third, and this time he really want to get a lynch going, based on nothing (or wierd reading skills). I would like to hear Rainbows explanation. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
At work now, I'll be back later today. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
A bunch of generic pro-town things being advocated. He provides a (bad) summary of events in the thread and... that's it. I was not providing a summary of events in the thread - I was summing up your actions. Perhaps it wasn't clear enough, no worries, hopefully this will make things more clear. ##Vote Rainbow As far as policies goes, this is my opinion: we should not lynch people based on whims, misinterpretations or lies. Rainbows third, so called, case against Saraf is completely based on either an obvious misinterpretation or a lie. Saraf: even if the spammiest asshole is just some poor well-meaning fattie (who should have applied the litmus test "does this post help town?") Rainbow: I think we should all rally around lynching Saraf, because he called me town and expressed interest in lynching someone he called probably town. Rainbow: Saraf seems to know I'm town, because he refers to me as such and tells me how I should be playing. Saraf has never called Rainbow town. Even if does NOT equal probably town! Rainbow must know this. I don't think this is a misinterpretation, I think this is Rainbow trying to create something out of nothing. Most likely reason the obvious one - he is scum. And he's not helping himself when he refuses to explain his own action but rather continue to accuse others. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:49 Rainbows wrote: You were summing up the thread because I was the only one doing things. Saraf literally said: EVEN IF YOU'RE TOWN YOU SHOULD BE LYNCHED. Your defence is lawlzy, please try harder. He did. And you are trying to make Even if you are into probably are. These are two very different statements. What reasons do you have for twisting the meaning like that, unless you are trying to promote a miss-lynch? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
On April 06 2013 02:18 Rainbows wrote: You can tell by the context that he thinks I'm probably town. Just look at the statement where he tells me what I should be asking myself this game as town. Regardless, he wants to lynch me despite my alignment which is not town-mindset at all. We can keep arguing syntax or lynch scum, kk? No you really can't tell that from the context. Sarafs post is an answer to your statement about policy. Everything that follows is written in a general term, the statement you mentioned included. Obzy: If I had to pick a scumread, at the moment, it would be Warent for his vote and justification - things may change, though. Could you at least explain why you disagree with my justification? If there are flaws in my logic, I really want them to be pointed out. jampidampi: Warrent, your filter still doesn't give information what you think about anyone other than Rainbows. I'm sure you must have opinions on others. Well, the thing is I really want to stay on this topic, at least until I get a believable explanation. If Rainbow had backed down, when you pointed out his misinterpretation in this post: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359¤tpage=8#153 Honestly I don't have any other reads (that doesn't depend on this one), opinions - yes - but no facts. What about you jampidampi, any reads? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
Hey warent, what's your read on me, and the people who voted on me? I just re-read everything, and I don't think the case against you is very strong. However you better elaborate some on that mystery read of yours. @Warent: You joined in much later than anyone else, and yet, you still choose to call out Rainbows? Doesn't anyone else stand as needing some scrutinizing? I mean, you can vote for and question rainbows and still investigating others. Okey, that's a bit unfair, I checked the thread before I went to bed and first thing when I woke up. Remember that we are in different timezones. Investigating and providing cases are different things, I am investigating other, but I don't have any other constructive cases. I Can't give you a more honest answer than that. Now return me the favor and tell me why you obviously disagree with my case against Rainbow? Warent, the reason that I didn't like your vote and justification is because it felt like Rainbows was solidly somebody to not worry about today, and you came in late enough that the initial salvo of joke votes, random votes, thread-starters had already occurred. When you came in, Rainbows was the vote leader (somehow -_-; ), and it looked to me like you were jumping in and making a case on an active player who had votes, I disliked that thread entrance quite a bit. (Specifically, the line "And I'm not alone" sort of caught me. Why does it matter, as an opening post? If there was a wagon forming after much discussion - sure. I like the power of numbers and agreement and stuff. But at that timing.... enhnhnnn) Alright, fair enough, you dislike that I entered late - and how I did it. You know why I entered late. And I'm not apologizing for providing a case. A case, which I still like to hear your opinion on. Oh, and in hindsight you are right about the "not alone comment", that was unnecessary. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
On April 06 2013 08:01 Fishgle wrote: jarjar needs to stop lurking and explain his vote. i also want to see TheRavensName, jampidampi, and Moloch post more so I can get better reads on them. However, the more i look at Warent's entrance though, the scummier it looks. He gets mad at Rainbows for questioning him and then casts an emotional vote, despite not having any evidence. I think Rainbows was just throwing out votes to create discussion. Warent however, seems dead set on lynching rainbows, and argues semantics. Now, there's an interesting back'n'forth between rainbow and warent. The most interesting thing about it is that while rainbows is defending his vote, warent instead is defending saraf. What I think happened is that rainbows blindfired, got a lucky hit on a skinny (saraf), and then warent came in to try to defend his skinny exercise buddy. It doesn't help that Saraf is so anti-"spam". Obzy has posted just as much as rainbows, and i don't see anyone complaining that he's "spamming". Discussion is useful. What are we supposed to do, chit chat about nothing while the skinnys kill us off? True, some of rainbow's posts have been less substantial than i would have liked, but he got some discussion going. I don't think that's anything to get lynched over. I enter with a suspicion and I provided a case. As far as evidence go: I caught rainbow trying to to push towards a lynch based on a misinterpretation that has been pointed out to him several times - yet he argues that his interpretation is the correct one. Why are you ignoring what I wrote in that post? Cute theory. Need to sleep now. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
Before we forget about this: My initial concern was not about his first post. It was the lie (?) in this post that caught my attention: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359¤tpage=8#148 Obzy: I don't know what to think of Raven. He hasn't really posted enough - only his last two posts have content I care about; Why does he think Saraf called Rain an asshole and an idiot? "even if the spammiest asshole is just some poor well-meaning fattie" - how is that implying Rain, unless it's taken for granted that Rain is a spammy asshole? >_>;;; Also, how did Rain interpret it to be calling him out? - -; w/e. I would like to see Raven post more. Raven, are you implying that nobodywonder is town (haven't read him yet, will form an opinion momentarily) with this post? Up until know you've been careful, but now you've decided TRN is a good lynch target - why? Any other reason than Meta stuff? You think Rains case against him is good, care to elaborate some? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
TRN: Jampi: Why are you calling Rainbows out for policy lynching? He seems to have made it pretty clear he hates policy discussion in general, and he has yet to really use it in any of his previous games. Jrk: Postig at random people is actually how rainbows plays. Look at the previous two newbie mini games for proof of that. Do you have another scum read? Or is the phrase other guy just referring to the lurkers? Doesn't this look like TRN pointing out that Rainbows behavior is just Rainbow being Rainbow, I fail to understand why he would do that (early on) if he were hoping for a lynch against him? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
First of all, I'm can't be sure of this, but I've decided to stick with my vote on Rainbow, for the main reason outlined below. First and foremost I see no reason what so ever for a townie to lie + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359¤tpage=8#148 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359¤tpage=17#338 My point is that all his behavior could very easily have been an act, trying to make us believe that he is just "to butt crazy to be a scum", he did trick everyone last game with a fake claim - I don't think he is stupid. Secondly, Lynching Rainbow will, according to my judgement, give us lots of valuable information. If he would flips green, everyone who has been defending him will look very, very townie - and those of us making cases against him has some explanation to do... You could argue that this is true for all lynches, but Rainbow is the case were most players have expressed opinions. Thirdly: Outbursts, Aggression (?), irrationality, rage quitting (?), And a vigilant claim on top of that... Well, to say it Rainbow style: Warent no like. Then, perhaps, I'm biased since I value logic and rationality. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
I'll explain everythingh tomorrow. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
Logic obviously doesn't work here, fine - I'll try to be a bit more aggressive (perhaps a claim in caps and threatening to rage quit will work?) You just lynched jampidampi - a lynch that put us back to square (minus) one - did it ever occur to you to consider the consequences of this being a potential miss lynch? Something I clearly pointed out here: Secondly, Lynching Rainbow will, according to my judgement, give us lots of valuable information. If he would flips green, everyone who has been defending him will look very, very townie - and those of us making cases against him has some explanation to do... You could argue that this is true for all lynches, but Rainbow is the case were most players have expressed opinions.? . As town; we don't know. We don't. Sure if we have a good read - go for it. But in the absence of a solid case, look at the consequences off the lynch. Lynching rainbow had given us tons of information, now we have... nothing. The whole case against Jampi is based on him providing a weak(?) case against Rainbow and asking question? Nothing solid, "gut feelings" and scum direction. Every single - (non general) - post/case/whatever from Obzy/Fishgle is based on their so called read that our emo kiddo Rainbow is town - a read that they in no possible way in hell can be so damn sure of as they make it sound (Rainbow claimed vigi - not wow raider - remember?). Rainbow is a good lair. There is nothing else of substance in their arguments. Nada. So another very important question is - why not focus on me, I provided a case against Rain before jampi, did I not? They are both pointing out that I look scummy for providing a case against their "town read" Rain, and some vague bullshit based on entering the game late (reason: I live in Norway - working full time), Yet they never commit - they wait. My simple theory is that they know that they would look really bad when I flipp townie unless someone else would push towards a lynch towards me first. Convenient to vote for a weak case against TheRavensName until Smancer shows up and repeats Obzy critics about jampis case and places a vote, (makes no sense for obzy to vote TRN and not jampi based on his analysis + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359¤tpage=17#338 Allow me summarize: Rainbow - "The emotional and stupid townie" Having someone like this in the scum-team makes sense. He could vote around - provide stupid cases and perhaps get a miss lynch going. If he get's called of for starting a miss lynch? It was obviously only a troll or him "trying to get the conversation going". And oh, about his claim, we don't even know if there is a vigilant in this game, and some meta - fake claiming is what Rainbow did in his last game when he was being pressured. Obzy - "The rational and logical guy: The analyst" Plays the logical guys whom at first glance seems to analyze stuffs (writes quiet a lot without giving us anything useful) but at a closer look base everything on one "belief" - Rainbow is town - everyone who accuses Rainbow is scummy - because there is no possible way for Rainbow to be scum. Mm yes. That's all there is to the arguments. And the justification for Rain being town? "he acts to stupid to be scum". Shame on you if you fool me once - shame om me if you fool me ... Fishgle - "The 'average townie' that just follows the mob" Provides some theory about me defending Saraf (should I even bother to mention that's a lie - I've never defended Saraf, just read my filter), And again, points out I'm scummy, doesn't commit, lynch someone else for the exactly same reason - only different he wasn't the one needing to commit. Oh and @Saraf, I'm afraid that was just random head bashing on my keyboard and not real Swedish  .Sorry but I've not read the last few posts its 6 am here, need to sleep xD. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
On April 07 2013 15:45 Obzy wrote: Ravens, what did you mean by this? You are implying that you like Kirby more than Jampi - sure, w/e - but why would you have to vote for Kirby =l You'd be voting for Jarjar. Am I getting confused over nothing? I think the way you acted pre-lynch was reasonably townie, it's just this post that confuses me. I'm curious about this as well? And did we forget about Nobody? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
These questions from Jampi (Sarafs who brought them up first). Did anyone even try to answer them? Since it's almost midnight, I'll post this and go to bed. If you are lynching me for doing nothing, why aren't you lynching JarJar? If you are lynching me for bad cases, why aren't you lynching Rainbows? If you can answear these question, then fine, lynch me. But if you lynch me, you better make the most out of it postflip. Pressure the shit out of anyone who can't answear these questions. Pressure the shit out of anyone who voted for me with halfassed reasoning or blatantly sheeped. Hopefully I'm alive when I wake up. Goodnight folks. So, Smancer, Fishgle, Moloch, care to honour JarJars wish and provide an answer to these questions? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
I hate all these shitty lurkers. I don't wanna lynch em cause... some of em are town. but I hate em cause they're terrible town. Yes, the lurkers are very problematic. Obzy, the reason; I brought up Smancer was because he was the one who committed against Jampi even though his vote basically was based on your analysis of Jampis case against Rain. I believe scum prefer to not start a miss lynch but rather try to convince others to start them. Look at this quote from Fishgle for example: Fishgle: My scum reads at the moment are: jampidampi, jrkirby, and warent Jampi was town and jrkirby looks very good after this last lynch. I was leaning town for Smancer - but right now the best way to get information will be if we can get answers from Fishgles/Smancer/Moloch on these questions: Jampi: If you are lynching me for doing nothing, why aren't you lynching JarJar? If you are lynching me for bad cases, why aren't you lynching Rainbows? And: If you were lynching Jampi for making a case against Rain - why didn't you lynch me? I just want the justification for Lynching Jampi. And what is your opinion about Fishgle, Obzy? | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
.Final vote: + Show Spoiler + TheRavensname (1) Rainbows Rainbows (2) Warent, TheRavensName Smancer (0) Saraf (0) jrkirby (2) JarJarDrinks, nobodywonder jampidampi (4) Smancer, Obzy, Fishgle, Moloch JarJarDrinks (3) Saraf, jrkirby, jampidampi My first assumption is that Mafia will try to spread out their votes as much as possible to make it harder to later find a pattern in their voting. At the same time they will try to hide among the townies as much as possible. My second assumption is that townie lurkers are much better for mafia than active townies. (Yes I know I'm pointing out some obvious stuffs, but this is as much for me as it is for you) Since it was a close vote, 4 against 3, 2 and 2, and with two unpredictable lurkers around whom could de-burrow and switch their votes at any time (?). There should be at least one scum among those who voted for Jampi, perhaps even two. Absolutely unnecessary for all three of them to vote for the same guy. So: Third assumption; at least one scum (maybe two) among those who voted for jampi. Not sure if you guys are fans of statistics - but let's do some statistical analysis anyway. Let's pretend for a second that we have no information what so ever and just chose to Lynch someone randomly - with 3 mafia and 10 players - our chance to lynch mafia would be 3/10 = 30%. Not very good. If there are two mafia among those who voted jampi the chances (no other information) is 50%. Better, not very good. If it's only 1 of 4 we actually end up at 25% - less than just going for someone at random. However if you are among the townies who voted jampi and applies the same logic. You should either end up with a 33% (one scum voted jampi), or 67% (two scums voted jampi). Now; let's add some reads. If you are among the townies who voted Jampi and have a strong town read on one of the others whom also voted jampi - you would end up with a 50% (1 scum) or 100% (2 scum) chance (obviously only with a very strong town read). If you have scum read on one of the others as well you should probably write a case. From this perspective Saraf was a good NK, since he was not among the ones whom miss-lynched jampi. It was also a kill that gave us little new information in the sense that he was a fairly strong town read (at least for me). Point is, the townies among Smancer, Obzy, Fishgle and Moloch have better "guesses" than the rest right now. Oh, and this could be good to come back to as the game progresses and we have more "hard facts". So my first suggestion is that we focus on these four for a while Smancer, Obzy, Fishgle and Moloch. It would be very good to hear your reads on each other, for example. TLDR: Let's try to look more closely at those who voted Jampi, there is likely at least one scum hiding among them. More filters. bbl. | ||
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