EPT:3
+ Show Spoiler +
german youtube sux 
Bang Bang Mafia 2
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
:3 + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 08 2012 07:27 Ace wrote: well we still need 4 more people to start I thought it's invite only and people are not supposed to ask for /in ? | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
| ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Looking back at Holy Roman I'd suggest something along the lines of: [ ] We will know within 2 days [ ] We will know within 2-4 days [ ] We won't ever know | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 10 2012 01:03 gonzaw wrote: I know who the smurf is (or at least he's making a good job of impersonating that guy). I don't want to ruin the surprise though  I've got a good guess myself but I'm not really sure yet. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
[ ] before the game has started to the question as well :p I thought it's someone else though | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote: Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1. If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). Okay people, if we have a Miller, do they claim tonight or tomorrow? If they claim tonight, and we have a cop the cop won't check them, but if they don't claim tonight there' s a chance the cop will. If they claim tonight however, there's a chance scum will shoot them because of their "semi-confirmed" status (i.e scum never fake-claim Miller, so someone claiming Miller is 80% telling the truth). Oh wait, here's the plan: Miller, as soon as D1 starts, claim and you'll be the one in charge of shooting on D1 My plan goes like this: First of all, a Miller claim will avoid a cop checking him subsequent nights. Second, the Miller can shoot at day, therefore we can use him to choose the D1 shot. Third, like said before the Miller is "semi-confirmed" because in average scum never fake-claim Miller, and they will most likely not do it today. Why? Because then the Godfather will be the one forced to fake-claim Since the plan is for the Miller to shoot on D1, and the only scum that can do so is the GF, then only him can fake-claim Miller (if any other scum claims Miller, they'll get instantly caught once they refuse to shoot). So, let's imagine the GF fake-claims Miller, what then? Then there is another Miller or there isn't: 1) There is another Miller claim: Then there will be a counterclaim; and one of them will basically be confirmed scum (the chances of 2 Millers is EXTREMELY low). We then let them shoot each other. If the real Miller is faster, great he'll shoot the GF and we'll live happily ever after. If the GF is faster, well then we can kill the GF the next day/night. 2) There is no other Miller claim: In this case, although we may take him as "confirmed" for a while, he'll be in the spotlight for quite a while. Not only that, we can make a tracker track him at night, that way we can catch him as GF. After we get rid of the GF, then catching the remaining scum will be easy if we all claim if we have a gun (and can shoot) or not. Those that claim they have a gun take turns in shooting each day (to actually confirm they have a gun) into the group that claimed they didn't have a gun (of course shooting those we think are actually scum from that group, not shooting our freaking blues >_>). So, if the GF claims Miller there is a high chance he'll get fucked, therefore I don't think he will. Therefore I think we can trust a Miller claim tomorrow, and in the worst case we'll get a tracker on him at N2. So people, this is the plan I was thinking of, do you agree or not?: To Miller:
To Town:
To Tracker the next night:
If we don't have any Millers it will be apparent soon (before the 24 hours or so) since everybody will post but there will be no claim. If that happens, then after the 24 or so hours normal VTs are allowed to shoot. The purpose of this plan is:
Of course this means everybody would follow the plan (those that have a gun and those that don't), so we are guaranteed to have some D1 time to discuss So people, what do you think? Observation: Maybe the SK can fake-claim Miller, since he can shoot at Day. However, the SK is forced to shoot at night, therefore a tracker on him WILL catch him. Also, since a "confirmed" Miller is bad reputation for scum, scum are likely to shoot the Miller claim, so the chances of scum shooting the SK will increase, blowing his cover once he survives the hit (and no medic claims his save). Basically, the SK fake-claiming Miller will let us/scum catch him sooner or later, and doing so to get the D1 shot (why would he want the D1 shot?) and a little confirmed status for a while isn't worth it for him. Observation2: There is a chance we don't have a tracker. In which case we can't confirm the Miller. First of all, the point is that scum don't know if we have a tracker either, so by having the GF fake-claim Miller they risk we actually having one. Second, even if we don't have a tracker, the GF will still be in the spotlight, because town will assume the tracker tracked him and got a "good" result (i.e that he didn't visit anyone), but the "Miller" claim will keep being alive throughout the whole game. This will mean that one day or the other the Miller-fake-claiming-Godfather will fall; so again it's not very convenient for him to do so I like this one. I read it and didn't like it the first time because I thought millers don't have a gun because all there is in the OP is Miller - You are a Vanilla Towny that unfortunately seems so scummy you show up as SCUM to an investigation. and I guess this means they have the same powers as VTs :p I disagree with some things though: 1) DIsagree 1) There is another Miller claim: Then there will be a counterclaim; and one of them will basically be confirmed scum (the chances of 2 Millers is EXTREMELY low). We then let them shoot each other. If the real Miller is faster, great he'll shoot the GF and we'll live happily ever after. If the GF is faster, well then we can kill the GF the next day/night. I really don't know if this is true to begin with. I usually get into a game with millers assuming about 1/4 of all VTs are millers, so yeah I usually assume there's multiple millers but I don't know if that's the reality. I think it was in that one game I keep forgetting the number. I'd rather let them shoot into someone they consider to be scummy nevertheless. Yes it could be there's only 1 miller but I can't judge that so far and there's no reasonable to assume such a thing yet, unless of course you have more information than I do :p It's just the same thing we had in LII just reversed. I claimed VET in that game and while gonzaw pushed me for something he saw me in there the majority that followed him actually did it for other reasons. We had 2 veterans who both voted me because they said "it's impossible to have more than 1 vet in a 30 player game. I am a vet therefore Toad has to be mafia" which was just hands down retarded. 2) Disagree Observation2: There is a chance we don't have a tracker. In which case we can't confirm the Miller. First of all, the point is that scum don't know if we have a tracker either, so by having the GF fake-claim Miller they risk we actually having one. Second, even if we don't have a tracker, the GF will still be in the spotlight, because town will assume the tracker tracked him and got a "good" result (i.e that he didn't visit anyone), but the "Miller" claim will keep being alive throughout the whole game. This will mean that one day or the other the Miller-fake-claiming-Godfather will fall; so again it's not very convenient for him to do so Either I'm retarded and missing something because I only checked the OP a couple of secs ago but I can't see a tracker in the OP lol. + Show Spoiler [Roles] + Cop - Kinda sucks that you can't shoot during the day but someone has to uphold the law. At Night you may investigate a player and get a result of Innocent or Scum. You may be Sane, Insane or Paranoid. Doctor - Saving lives is your job! Shooting people is a no no! You can't day kill but you can protect someone at night. You can't protect the same player on consecutive nights. You can be Sane, Insane, Paranoid or Weak. Watcher - Looking out for people is what you do best. At night you can choose to watch a player and I'll tell you who visited them at night. You can't target yourself or the same player on consecutive nights. Miller - You are a Vanilla Towny that unfortunately seems so scummy you show up as SCUM to an investigation. Scum Godfather - You appear innocent to Alignment checks. You can also shoot during the day time by typing ##kill(##Kill): player in the thread. Scum Roleblocker - You can stop anyone from carrying out their night actions. Blocking a Vanilla Towny does not rob them of the ability to Day Kill. You can't kill during the day. You can not target the same player on consecutive nights. Vanilla Scum - At Night you may coordinate with your other allies and decide who to kill. You can't kill during the day. Serial Killer - Lone wolf. You must survive until the end of the game and eliminate both Town,Mafia and any other factions. At night you are bulletproof and can't be shot. You also show up as Innocent to role checks. You can kill at Night OR Kill during the day. You must kill at Night or the following Day or else I will mod kill you. However, we probably have a cop and in this setup the GF can't choose what he wants to show up as when being checked. This is important because usually the GF can choose what he returns on checks and therefore could choose to return as "Goon (mafia)" as well or whatever millers return as. This game they can't which means that a DT check on them WILL give us a green check meaning they're busted because there's no way a miller could produce a green check on beind DT'ed in a setup without a framer. So screw this tracker thing. Goon and RB can't fakeclaim. We just DT the guy and if he turns out green we shoot him because both GF and SK show up as green lol. So in general I like the plan. I just don't like the "shoot the counterclaimer" part because that's some speculation which isn't just unsupported right now but also in my opinion wrong. I don't think 2 millers in a 20 player game is unusualy. I'd actually say it's more likely than having just one miller lol. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I can't see a drawback yet. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 11 2012 20:29 Dirkzor wrote: I simply refuse to play if you guys don't read the OP. This is just over the top stupid... The first one: Does that mean there can be roles that are not in the OP? I thought that means "not every role in the OP has to be in the game" oO But yeah you're right that sounds a little weird... Second one: So what? A DT won't claim d2 but will instead keep on checking people to figure out his alignment, like every other DT. It's still a nice anti-GF measurement for this plan unless mafia somehow manages to shoot the cop (if he exists) really early on. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 11 2012 20:49 Dirkzor wrote: Toad, please. Read every word in every sentence. Will make it easier for both of us... But I'll try again: Bolded part means this is basicly a closed setup. Underlined means we can have a rolecop, scum doctor or whatever other role Ace can think of. About you whole DT strategy... You logic is just super flawed. 1) Yes a DT check can produce a green result. 2) Miller can also produce a green result 3) We don't know if scum have a framer 4) You just want to kill someone based on the first DT check that might not be correct? Outing the DT and giving scum the oppotunity to kill our DT? Seems to me you just want people to claim regardless. I've never found you to be this stupid so maybe its on purpose... yeah I guess it's flawed. As mentioned I assumed the part was poorly worded and it means "not every role mentioned in here has to be in the game". If it's what you said it's obviously flawed because I assumed there's no framer (again because I thought it's only the roles in the OP, just as I said when I said there's no tracker). If we can't be sure if mafia have a framer we can't do this plan at all. And I never said 4). I said that the DT check gives the DT information nevertheless. I actually stated that the DT should not claim d2 at all because he's not sure about his alignment but will be later on and that way we still get a Mafia the moment the DT is sure about his alignment and by that time he can claim (that's usually after 3 to 4 checks?). But again, that's flawed because I thought we only have the roles in the OP. We can't do this if a framer is possible because we're painting a big, red cross above the guy who's shooting d1... | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Remeber what the framer was like from PYP for example: Framer: You can target one target per night and make them appear as whatever role and alignment you wish. In addition, you may plant incriminating evidence on a player, making them appear to have visited target player at night. Yeah that was a special framer but neither do we know if we have a tracker nor do we know if the hosts considered something like that as well if they chose to give us a tracker (especially if it's tracker INSTEAD of DT) Not sure if Millers should claim at all. That's going to be confusion and I'm not sure we're able to figure stuff out easily yet, maybe even wasting a couple of cycles to figure this stuff out when we could just play normal. With DTs being not sane 100% there won't be a situation where the DT claimes d2 and says "sup guys I found red in XXX" because he can't be sure of his sanity. I'd say with the possibility of framers, Millers are best to shut up and just play normal. If a DT happens to check them, whatever. That's not a tell for the DT at all until he sees multiple people flip and the chances for a check on a miller are quite low to begin with. Yeah that's speculation but the whole point of making millers claim is flawed if there are framers and we just change the one problem with another one that is about equally likely to give us some issues. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I agree that making them claim in theory should be best but I just don't think we can controle the situation. What happens if we have multiple millers? We have people like gonzaw screaming for people to shoot into either one because clearly there can't be more than 1 miller in a semi-big game according to him (lol), that's going to be really hard and a shitton of confusion. If town manages to leave the millers be for a couple of hours and play normal with those claims fine, let them claim. If town is not able to get that and everyone's focusing on figuring that out when all we need to figure that out is playing normal instead of doing the statistic game (in a CLOSED setup). And honestly I see us doing a retarded shot d1 because of the miller claims that way. That may or may not hit mafia but it's going to be retarded and not thought trough unless gonzaws assumptions that there can't be more than 1 miller in this set-up is right. So yeah, obviously lynching a miller is bad but I fear that if we get multiple claims d1 we'll have a total shitstorm that might cost us more than just one cycle, even with gonzaw, myself and VE promising to not post for 24 hours. Just as you said. What happens if we really have 2 millers? Gonzaw tells the guy to shoot #1 miller, that guy flips town miller, we shoot #2 the next cycle and that guy flips town as well? We're screwed if that happens. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
| ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 00:22 MrZentor wrote: Is anybody else bothered by this? There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot. Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy. the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 00:38 marvellosity wrote: Eh... even if we didn't agree for millers to claim day 1, then doing so hardly makes someone look townish. That's what you look at their play for, to see if it makes sense or not. exactly. what I'm saying with my post before that. We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out (easy = not normal analysis, but instead something that works right off the bat). So what I meant and is that a miller claim afterwards should not be a reason to consider someone a townie. If you make someone claim he obviously got pressure and therefore you considered lynching / shooting him prior to the claim. A miller claim should not be treated as alignment indicating either way, which results in shooting them if you thought he's mafia prior to the claim. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 02:17 FreelanceSatan wrote: ok I just woke up got my role and went over thread. Apparently you guys are trying to find a way to take advantage of millers and that sounds like a good topic to start discussion on but I dont exactly see how pressuring millers to claim is gonna confirm them or anything with a GF that can be miller and shoot in game it reduces authenticity of any miller claim. I think you guys need to slow down with trying to put together odd ball plans that rely on so much unknown variables and just focus on the one thing town does best. scum hunting. ( also why did chaos threaten to shoot a claimed miller when like 90% of thread is indicating that they approve of the plan on some level??) that just doesnt feel right. I would FOS chaos for that. Anyway im not a miller however.. I will volunteer to take the first shot if you guys have a plan other than "shoot your biggest scum read so your confirmed townie" cause honestly how accurate are scum reads on day 1. (not very) and the last thing we need is townies offing townies during the day and scum offing townies during the night. 2 quick questions: Is that an argument with 2 phrases that belongs together? I doubt it but I don't get why you're using "would" in the first place. So why "would" you fos chaoser for that instead of just fosing him? Sounds a little like "I would .... if not for ..." to me and that sounds a little like an excuse when there's no reason to make an excuse. You're a smurf so surely you know how to play. Why are you so insecure and tell us that you would FOS him instead of fosing him in the first place? That really sounds a little weak. If the argument is "I would fos him if I were a miller" I want to know why you see a reason to fos him as a miller but don't see a reason to fos him as a VT lol | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 03:22 talismania wrote: The point of millers claiming isn't that it helps the town by giving them someone to shoot and plans and all this and that. Plans are always going to have holes in a closed setup. The point of millers claiming is that they have no reason not to. A miller is just a VT with a special title. So what? Why wouldn't they claim? There's a possibility of a fakeclaim. So what? Everyone else in the game is going to claim VT, and that doesn't necessarily say anything about their alignment. There's a possibility it doesn't help with a possible tracker/doctor because of a possible framer. So what? That possibility is always going to exist no matter what the tracker/doctor looks at. The upside is that it is a great thing to talk about D1, and a great topic for seeing how people react to whomever does claim, etc. I would also point out that while there is a possibility of a fakeclaim I think it's very low. A GF fakeclaiming miller is unnecessarily risky for scum when the GF can just as well fakeclaim VT and not have to worry about assuming that a cop will doubt their sanity or not check them or something. Only way it makes sense for GF to fakeclaim is if there's a framer too. Other mafia would be stupid to claim a role that can shoot when they can't. Well a miller claim either is a true miller or a mafia. There's no way a VT would claim miller, there's no way a blue would claim miller. So firstly mafia gets the information and it's easier to bluesnipe like that, especially if we have multiple millers because they can take them out. Yeah it's a little wifom because I just said blues will never claim miller which makes it a reasonable claim to "hide" but it would be a shitton of confusion. Just picture a blue claiming miller who is confronted with a green check on d3 on him. That wouldn't be helping at all to put it that way :p Additionally it's going to be a topic either way. If you play decent and just try to do no shenanigans you should not have problems. But let's take a miller who claimes on the n0 deadline (n0 -> d1) and assume that guy survives a couple of days. Again, that's going to be a topic and it's easy for mafia to get people not trust that guy simply because it would be a reasonable fakeclaim. If I was certain that we have 1 miller tops I'd probably agree on a claim n0-d1 in a heartbeak but I'm not really so sure about that assumption as I've actually seen more games with 2 or 3 millers than games with only 1 miller if I remember correctly. With 2 or 3 guys a "let's lynch into one of the millers, there's bound to be one mafia in there" later on, especially if they survive quite long is inevitable imo while no claim would be either no problem at all because we never got into that situation post day 3 with a DT that "luckily" happened to check a miller or if we have bad luck it happens and we're only going to lose a cycle if the guy is looking bad on top of being a miller. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading. Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. [...] I thought so as well until I realized there can be framers in this game The op has no framers in it but they're possible because it's apparently a closed-setup with example roles. Especially if we follow the miller plan from gonzaw that is bound to fail because if we assign the guy who shoots based on being a miller and the fact that it should return red (as you pointet out no mafia will return red AND are able to shoot) we're painting a big, red cross above the millers head for a framer. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Wait why would you want to frame a miller? I've thought about it a bit and I don't really see a downside of millers claiming especially if we give them a designated target. if you frame a miller he returns green like a GF would. A miller should return red but we know he can't be a mafia guy unless he's GF so the shot of a miller proves he is either a townie or a GF. If he returns green to a DT check he looks like a GF and not like a miller who should return red on checks. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:43 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Yeah this is true if the cop is sane. We have varied sanity so I wouldn't put that much stock if someone claimed miller a check turned them green. Even if it's actually the gf we still have the fact that the cop may be naive. I'm obviously only talkinga about confirmed sanity. A green check on n1 is worth nothing. A useless Cop (paranoid / naive) is obviously going to be worthless and people know that. We won't have a claim on d1 or d2 of a DT because of sanities but if we have a claim d3 or d4 with confirmed sanities and that gives us a green check on a miller with a sane cop or a red result on a miller with an insane cop that'd be really bad because again, that looks like a GF. | ||
| ||
